This week Candice Mama joins the podcast. Candice has been named one of The World's Most Inspiring Women by Vogue, Top 20 African Women by the African Union and the United Nations. Candice's story has been made into a documentary called It's Nice to Meet You which was featured at the Louis Vuitton Foundation.
Candice is an author, award winning speaker, and forgiveness advocate. Her story is so powerful even the Dalai Lama has heard it.
Her work in forgiveness, reconciliation and trauma began after her story of forgiving apartheid assassin and her father’s murderer, Eugene De Kock, made international news.
To learn more about Candice visit https://www.candicemama.com/
Support the show (http://patreon.com/candicehorbacz)
0 (0s): <inaudible> 1 (4s): Hello everybody at you're listening to Chatting with Candice. I'm your host Candice Squareback. Before we get started on this week's episode, if you have the time please rate and review the podcast, it would help us out a ton. This week. I'm really excited. We have Candice Mama joining us. She was named one of the world's most Inspiring Women by Vogue magazine. She was also named the Top 20 African Women by the African Union and the United Nations. Her story was turned into a documentary called it's a pleasure to meet You, which was featured at the Louis Vuitton foundation. Candice Mama his story has been heard by the Dalai Lama. She's a published author, a multi award winning speaker, a TEDx speaker. 1 (45s): You can learn more about firstname.lastname@example.org. I don't want to give too much of her story away. She does a much better a job at telling the story than I ever could. So I'm going to let her get into that in just a second. If you want to find out more about Candice, you can go to Candice mama.com. She's a really powerful woman. She's doing a lot of work in the field of forgiveness and healing. And I think that is a really powerful episode for really anybody. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. It was such a pleasure to have her on this episode. Thank you so much for joining me today. Candice if you would tell our listeners like a little bit about yourself. 1 (1m 29s): Yeah, I am sad, but to me a Candice it's so weird. And for me, yes. So my name is Candice Mama in South Africa at the moment, but my work is Forgiveness. It's been given a space and so called the Forgiveness advocate, which I'm sure people have no idea what that means. And that is basically I travel the world and I share my story and I Inspiring help people to get other resentment pain. And so how did you get started as a Forgiveness advocate? Like you have a pretty amazing story. And for our listeners, usually, like we don't do like a storytelling kind of format is more conversational, but as I was saying earlier, when we were first getting started, your story to me is so powerful. 1 (2m 17s): And I feel like we would be like robbing the listeners of that value if we didn't allow you to do that. So if you would kind of get into your story and like what led you to where you are today? Absolutely. So I'm South African, as I mentioned, and I don't know how much people know about South Africa, but we are only 26 years into democracy. So prior to the 26 years, we lived in a pod site, which was basically segregation, black people. And in the system, when I was nine months, my father, unfortunately, he was brutally murdered by, in a pot site assessment by the name of Eugene De Kock. And when I was around the age of nine, my mom had bought this book. It was called into the art of darkness by John. 1 (2m 57s): And on the cover was a picture, the person who had killed 2 (3m 0s): My father and inside, I knew it was a picture of my father, but every time my mom would send me to get this book and she'd say, you're not allowed to look at it. United send me out the room. And my curiosity started getting the better of me because people would like cry and scream. And I thought, what is it in this book? You know, like, I know it's my dad, but what could he be doing? That's making people react this way. So one day I sat outside the door and I overheard the number. And so I quickly scribbled down that number and I was so excited and I thought, okay, when I get a moment alone, I'm going to see what's in here. And so eventually a day came when my mom lives the house and I ran. I'm so excited. I grab this book, I set at the edge of the pit. And when I opened up, it was a picture of my dad's burnt body, clutching the steering wheel and his eyes were protruding. 2 (3m 46s): And so from that moment on, I just felt myself to start to change. I was so angry. I was so sad and I couldn't tell my mom what it does. And so I started to go from this very happy child to this incredibly depressed and sad child. By the time I was around 16, I went to bed one night, I was an athlete. I was fairly healthy, but this evening I couldn't get dressed. And I was thinking, what is going on? Then I got this sharp pain in my chest. And so I'm going to my mom's room. And I said, I think I'm having a heart attack. And so she looked at me and she rushed me to the hospital and the hospital kept me for observation. I went under with all of these tests. And then the following day, the doctor said, I need to sit you guys' down. 2 (4m 29s): And so my mama was like, of course. And he said, I don't know how to tell you this, but your body's killing you. And if you don't change, whatever it is you're doing, you're going to die. And he said in my over 20 years of experience, I've never seen stress in some so severe in someone your age. And so we left the hospital. My mom refused to put me on tablets because she was like, I work in medical age. You're not getting onto these tablets will be dependent for the rest of your life. However, one day I was just like, I was around 16, going on to 17 and a thought occurred to me. And it said, you need, Eugene kill your dad. And now you're letting them kill you. To. And that was one of the most defining points of my life. 2 (5m 10s): So I started just on this dangerous thing of like, I need to release this. I need to let it go. Not so much for Holy practice where anything, it was just to survive fast forward. Eventually I get to 23 and I'm like, yay. I've made it. And I get home. And my mom says, I got a call from the NPA, which is the national prosecuting authorities. And they want to know if you'd like to meet Eugene who was the man that killed my father and immediately I said, yes, but we started just going through these family discussions about all we going on. We going eventually we ended up going. And so my mom asked what happens to my husband. And Eugene said to my mom, an ambush was actually sit up to my father and three other gentlemen. 2 (5m 50s): And my father wasn't incredibly skilled drivers. So when he was driving into Knightsbridge, which is about an hour away from where we were living, Eugene's team was waiting for him and they fired on the call. And when you Deane, so that the car wasn't coming to a stop, you ran on the bridge and he emptied out his magazine cottage on my father. When he social signs of life in the car, he does them all in feeling, sitting in my life. And so that was the first time we came to know what it really happened to my father. And so the conversation continued. My mom said, you and I forgive you Eugene. Then my older brother said, I've to keep you in. My grandfather said it I'm a younger brother that it got to me. And I said, you know, Eugene, I want to say, I forgive you. But before I do, I'm going to ask you one thing. And he said anything once that, and I said, do you forgive yourself? 2 (6m 34s): And for the first time, it's like, he lost balance and you looked away. And he that the size of his eyes. And it looked back at Manny and said, when you've done the things I've done, how do you forgive yourself? And I just began to sob and I started crying. And so the first time I just felt like it wasn't me being a victim to gene. It was just two victims sitting in the same room. And so they dismissed the meeting, the MPI members. And I got up first. Then I went to Gina and I said, Eugene with your mind, if I gave you a hug and he looked at me confused, and he got up and he embraced me and he said, I'm so sorry for what I've done. And your father would of been so proud of the woman you've become. And then we went our separate ways. I advocated for his parole, which he later got. 2 (7m 15s): And yes. So that's pretty much the story 3 (7m 18s): That is just, it's going to sound unbelievable too. So many people, because the idea of Forgiveness even when it comes to like very small transgressions is very difficult for people to actually like truly get there. I always say, and it seems to be similar with you is that when you reach this true Forgiveness at this level, like real, authentic forgiveness, like you don't have a visceral response anymore. So like, it's like, if you bring up, let's say a partner cheats, or someone stole something from you, whatever it is. And you feel like that tight thing in your chest or your stomach drops, or you maybe start to feel that rage bubbling up. And like, clearly there's like a lot of things that are unaddressed that you still have to face to actually get two Forgiveness. 3 (8m 2s): And I think it was, I mean, you were saying like not having the emotional response. So it was an interesting book. I read a few years back and it was called a body, keeps score. I don't know if he read that. I can't remember the author. And it was the idea that these traumas can actually manifest physically in your body. And part of it was like going through that, the genetics saying that that can even be linear, like passed on from mom to daughter to granddaughter and so on. So it sounds like you were having like this very real story trauma that was showing up physically, I guess, like, what are some exercises that you would recommend to people that maybe have like a chronic illness or what some people would say is like disease that's caused from like these physical traumas or like, I guess lack of Forgiveness. 2 (8m 51s): Yeah. You're so right. It is, it's a dis-ease right? Like your body is not in an and for me is so important that you go through all the processes of heating, which is first Geoff type of knowledge, your pain, and so on. So many people, they struggle to acknowledge the fact that when my dad lived and I was three, it really wounded me off. When that person cheated on me or whatever, that's the scenario, his for individuals and it so important to acknowledge that that person hurt you. You are in pain and then allow those emotions to occur. Sit through the pain, sit through that anger, sit through those emotions. Because I think so many times when we speak Forgiveness people wants to go from trauma to Forgiveness and I'm like, he doesn't work that way, you know, because that's all just putting a bandaid over a bruise and it just gonna keep the pest will come up eventually. 2 (9m 38s): And so you've got to set for that pain. You've got to release it. Cry for you have to cry, scream if you have to scream, but released the key to that though, is to give yourself a limit. Don't say, I'm going to be in this space for you because that, that becomes your personality profile. So give yourself space and room to say, I'm going to feel this way for the next week. I'm just going to make sure that I'm. And I even say maybe like an hour a day, there's a new time to do it instead of spending the whole day, because you don't want to get into that fund. And then off to you allow it, then you can release it. Then you can start saying, what did I get out of this? Because even in the worst traumas, I mean, Holocaust survivors were actually interviewed and I've forgot what book it was. 2 (10m 18s): But they actually said they were grateful. Some of them said they were grateful for what had happened to them because they came out happy and more grateful people. So a woman things, you know, you've got to go through the process and then Forgiveness, and the one part that I need to add here is once you forgive, it does not mean you need to reconcile because that's what people think. They're like, Oh, but I forgave you let's be friends. I'm like, no, you forgave him to let him go. Let that fish back in jail. So how did you recognize that you were in pain? Because you were saying like 16, you had this very real physical reaction. You were hospitalized. And then like in your early twenties, you were like, I got this. It seems fine. Like, I think I've forgiven. So like, how did you recognize that that pain was still there? 2 (11m 1s): You know, Candice has kind of one of those things, right? You know, you're wearing Rose colored glasses. The thing is you think that everyone else sees life the same way. You assume that how you move through life is how everyone else moves through life. How you see life is how everyone else sees life is when you take it off that you're like, Oh my goodness, is this how I should have been living? And so, to be honest, when people say that person knows that terrible, they know that bad person, sometimes people actually don't know. They don't know how much trauma they carrying. They're like I got over it. And they S they think they got over it because they don't think about it or they don't address it, or they sweep it under the rug. And the truth is, like you said, a little earlier, when you really know you got over something, it's when that thing does. 2 (11m 42s): And you can think about it, but it no longer has that emotional trigger, because anything that rules, your emotions, rules your life, right. That in place that walks past You and they living their best life. And you're like, Oh 1 (11m 54s): My goodness, heart attack. They, the ones in control, they have the power in that situation. So when you remove that emotional attachment, you take back the power. And so to me, I had to realize in that encounter with Eugene that he was the human being and we have that, I want to hate to him or not. There was nothing he can do to take away what it does. Right. And so was that going to continue in this end? And sadness was going to love a bit of a life that my dad couldn't love her. So it had to be a decision for me to, so do you feel like as someone from the outside, cause I think it's a lot easier to see someone who's maybe like self-destructive when you're like once or twice removed, but when you're the person that's like in the thick of it, it's like a lot harder to recognize maybe like your shortcomings or maybe like where you need to like work on. 1 (12m 42s): Do you think it's possible as like an outsider to like influence someone to recognize those necessities for a change or do they kind of have to find that themselves? That's a tough one because I think you all conscious being, right. However, that consciousness comes to you. Whether, you know, you believe in living in this moment right now, whatever it is, and you see people being destructive, your natural instinct or natures to say, I know what you should do to fix yourself, to do it. And you want to, you want to fix it when you impact that you want to help people. You want to get in there, you want to solve the problems you like. I know I should just follow my road back to life. You'll be so happy. And unfortunately we can't do that ride. We can only control ourselves. 1 (13m 24s): And I think it was the mother Theresa quote that said, when you try and change yourself, that's when you realized the difficulty, all of that. It makes you realize how difficult it is to change someone else, change your own issue. So you're like, Oh no. And I'm sure you've experienced this to write with it. It wasn't a relationships or family relationships. There is always that thing that you want people to do better, but you can't force them to do better. Now, something that's blatantly obvious to you is never going to be seen by some people, if they're not ready to kind of see it. And I think everyone has to kind of experience like a us in enough pain. Right? So it's like wherever your personal breaking point is. And then that's like where some people are going to either like sink or swim. 1 (14m 4s): And it's like, okay, like, I'm going to choose not to live here. So I need to make these changes in order to like, have my best life and like be the happiest that I can be, or I'm just going to fall victim to like this victim ideology, which I feel like we see a lot of right now. And I think it's just like, so, so hard to like be a bystander. Cause you see so many people that are almost like competing for who's hurt the Most. And I guess like you kinda just have to sit back and wait for them to wake up on their own, which is frustrating, the payment on them. But my pain is This monitor those. So I guess like I'm so we just had a baby. 1 (14m 45s): So we have like this little nine month old and we're trying to, like, I feel like we see things from a different perspective now. Like we have like these like a parent and be like, okay, so how do we raise this little human to not fall into like certain groups, if you will, like, is there our, like the victim groups? And it's like, what you said that you're almost competing for, like who's hurting the most, who has got the most pain and most trauma. So it's like, how do you create like the sense of individuality when like so much of a human nature is to want to conform and be liked and be accepted. So how do you, how do you remain strong and individual and like today's society? Oh, that's tough. Especially with social media, right? Social media creates this. 1 (15m 25s): We in a society of opt rage that the most outrageous outrage a person gets the most likes and views and comments. And so people are trying to be the quickest, the quickest to react to anything like, Oh my gosh, you did this. I'm going to be at the quickest. So that people know Memorial, a righteous human being, a body of it is it's one of those things that you have to look at and say, I think with kids, especially, you know, when you have whole parents who are living authentically and they are constantly striving to understand themselves, I think it drops off on you. Right? Because it's when our parents are incredibly wounded and they don't attain too. The wounding that it affects us the worst. And I see it all the time. We inside it to everyone and everything is super offensive to everyone. 1 (16m 7s): You can't say anything without someone being offended, you can't do anything without someone being offended. But I think especially just the fact that you have that thought that how do I raise a better human being? I think you're already raising a better human being just by having the intention. Absolutely. So do you say that spirituality played any role in like your path to like awareness and Forgiveness? Or did you have like a different path? Yeah, for me, I think I can't truly side was a spiritual thing to be like really once is getting to heaven and I did it really wasn't that for me, it was a survival thing. I knew that I didn't do this. I wouldn't survive. 1 (16m 47s): And I also sold to myself. If I don't take back power, if I don't take back my life, this is what it's going to be. And my dad passed away when he was 25, I'm now 29. And so when I changed the paradigm on it, I said, you know what, I'm living for? Both of us, I'm living the 25. He couldn't have for 26 to 27 and every year they offer. And so for me, it wasn't so much spiritual. However, I think my spirituality does play a role now because I've always been someone who was deeply curious about everything. My mom was very mystical in nature. So she was always curious about that. I want to know more what's the stars, what's numerology, what's this. So I grew up with a very open month, which helped me seek I'm a secret, but by nature, I wanted to know, like, if someone says there's life out there, I'm like, let's go see someone is like, I can send you into the tea leaves. 1 (17m 38s): What's going to happen. I'm like, World Tommy, the TVs. Like, I love that. Like just tell me all of the things they will, all of the secrets to universe, but also don't be like an a*****e about it, like, but tell me, but be constructive. That's amazing. So have you read the book letting go by David Hawkins? No, I haven't yet. I haven't. Okay. So it's really, really good. So he kind of had some points that crossover with yours, which is to experience the emotion. And he kind of says, if there's no bad emotion, all the emotions are just part of the human condition. 1 (18m 22s): So like to experience them without judgment. And then you said this really interesting fact that was like the tears or their, for a reason, the oxytocin is released when you cry. And I had, no, I never knew that. And I thought that was so fascinating because I was talking to my husband about it. And I was like, it makes sense because a lot of girls like in women are like, I just need a good cry. And he's like, men never say that to each other. But like, you know that you need that release. So in the book he's explaining when you're experiencing these emotions, whether they're joy, happiness, or even like anything, that's like sad sadness, anger, whatever it experience it. But then let it go. Because if you hold on to it, depending on like the specific trauma, he gets a little bit mystical in saying that it creates a blockages in your shop. 1 (19m 9s): And then that's where you get a panic attack or you get some kind of disease or disorder it's because like there's literally a blockage in state of flow. So I just think that is so powerful. And like, I wonder if she read that because it crossed over so much. It sounds very relatable. Cause I can't picture that of course. Cause I'm like all about the mysticism that, but I can see how your energy does get blocked. But I think even if people don't believe in anything mystical and the ATS, then they don't believe in chakras an older that there's a physical blockage that you do feel when you want PE there's a physical like is almost like your walking in this veil or you're walking in this fog right with you. 1 (19m 49s): Aren't in a place of just crippling pain. And I genuinely believe like I'm not someone who thinks we should shy away from hard emotions. I think we do almost growing in difficult times, like happy and being like, I need to grow and progress right now at this time. So it, and I'm like, I need to get my s**t together. I learn the most spiritual lessons I learned the most about myself. I work harder in those moments and of course I love happiness and joy, but I always say to people I'm so grateful I was the price, but I'm grateful that I've been to the darkest points off the dock, the points off my soul. Because when I experienced joy, I was experience at the highest points of joy on the highest points of happiness. 1 (20m 34s): But I don't look at the To as, Oh, the one is that the one is good. I look at it as seasons. I'm like, if the world can go through seasons and we've got spring summer, autumn and winter human beings can go through seasons where you're one season, you really thriving and some seasons 2 (20m 48s): You not and it's okay. It's okay. 3 (20m 52s): Yeah. It goes back to flow. I totally agree. So we were mentioning if you're not in control of like your emotions and like kind of like reconstructing like your narrative and having like that internal locust of control versus an external locus of control. So what does that mean to you first? And then I guess like what are some ways to shift that narrative and start looking more like inwardly versus like externally, especially when it comes to whether you have trauma in your life or you're not where you want to be financially, whatever the case may be. 2 (21m 25s): Yeah. I think everything comes down to story with me. I think everything kind of sounds so the narrative, you are constantly telling yourself and that narrative comes in floats, right? People are like, I don't tell myself this story. All of us has a story. All of us tell ourselves consistently, this is who I am. That's what I do this why in my face, my partner, whoever. And so for me, it's so important to understand that until you take a pin or what typewriter, and you start editing your story and saying, Oh, this was true for me once, but in no longer is and be okay with that. You know, I think sometimes, and this is what I found in my work and that I found so interesting is that sometimes the pain defines us. It defines us to such a degree and to such a point that people are almost scared to forgive because they don't know what's on the other side of that Forgiveness that they don't want to know. 2 (22m 14s): They don't want to explore the unknown. And so that's an enormous is fascinating to me that you get so married, cling so tightly too, being the victim of this story or being the best because it's comfortable. People will know you as that to move through life is that, but all of a sudden, if you just at the thing is how do you move your life right? And so forth. It's so important to get very honest with yourself, brutally honest with yourself and say, what is benefiting me from the story? Because even the most painful stories, there's some sort of a benefit. If you keep loving in that pain and you keep living in that story. So you have to really get honest and say a sympathy from others or the fact that my mom does move for me now that I'm, you know, at home and this, and this is happening. 2 (22m 55s): And when you get honest with yourself, then you can be like, do I actually want to change this? Because that's something people actually ask themselves that like, yeah, but I'm unhappy. Well, I'm uncomfortable. Yeah. You can be unhappy and uncomfortable for the rest of your life and be in the same situation. So you have to get honest. If you want to change it, then you have to rescript your life. You've got to say, okay, how do I view the situation differently? Because it's looking at the same situation through a different lens that gives you the power. You can either say on Candice. And my dad was brutally murdered, whatever the cases where you can be like I'm Candice and you're not, we don't do great things in spite of the fact that my dad was murdered. You know? So it's all about your own interpretation of anything that matters. 3 (23m 39s): So when it comes to Healing you were saying that it's not this linear process. And I think that's so important to drive home to anybody 2 (23m 47s): Because a lot of people think like if you do the work you're enlightened and not set. So can you describe like what your graph looks like, I guess for Healing and then a followup would be how to like, make sure that you stay on that positive side and not kinda of get sucked back in, especially if maybe your in this space of being surrounded by maybe negative influences when you can, might not be in a position to like remove yourself necessarily. So protecting that. Yeah. I mean your right, the scale of Healing that are always use this, like you're doing great. You're doing great. You're doing great. It's like, you know, there's the squeaky line in the middle of everything just goes awry that you'd like, okay, this is Missy, this is terrible. I'm growing back. 2 (24m 29s): And I think its in that moment of saying I'm going back and just gotta decide that I'm going to keep at it. Because I think sometimes because of the sights that we live in and you know, everything is a one, two step, the three steps to Forgiveness the five steps to this The 25, six of us. And we enjoy that. We like knowing that this part, okay, I'm going to feel like this, this part, I'm going to feel like this. However, with Payne, anyone who's being through a breakup. Nope. It doesn't work that way. You don't go in there like, Oh well you thought over and you're like, I'm doing great. I don't need Gerry in my life FuckJerry. And it like to see an Instagram post it. And you're like, Oh my gosh, I could have been happy with Jerry. 2 (25m 10s): All of a sudden you think all your progress is gone because you saw this picture in a triggered you and you want to go back to square one. But I think it's so important to understand, give yourself a bridge or yourself, some compassion because that's where people in that self compassion. And so we need the things good, hard. They lack. I'm so stupid. I'm never going to heal. Things always fall apart and they're get into this negative cycle when instead you can be like, you know what? I sold Jerry, but with the new girl and it puts me off and it made me miss it and it does. And you're just to acknowledge it at the monitor and then you can keep moving forward. But it's when you're trying to repress it or you're trying to deny it, that you get into trouble because as soon as you come face to face with your trauma and pain in the Healing process and you're like, I'm not going to think of that. 2 (25m 55s): I'm not going to face that. And you push it away. There's that famous quote that says what you resist persists so that the more that time and push the mod comes at you. And before you know, it, it explodes instead of just saying, sit with it, be like, Aw, man, that hurts. Oh that sucked. Some of it that allow those emotions to calm. If that sadness there to be sadness, if a longing, knitted, belonging, and then you move forward, you like, okay, I'm giving myself this hour, these two hours to feel, but I'm going to keep moving forward tomorrow. I'm going to wake up and it's going to be a new day and I'm going to continue on this journey. So I think that's, what's important for people to realize that even when you own the metal messy pot, show yourself some self compassion and don't the leave that you've got to be happy because I think that's the biggest leverage. 2 (26m 40s): And people have that as I'm, Healing I'm to be happy and skipping the Hills where the truth is, you're probably not going to be happy. You're probably going to just be soldiering through some days and some days you're just going to be getting by. But the fact that you're making those conscious leaps forward and you're doing your journaling. If that's what you choosing to do with your doing your art, are you doing your yoga is you're doing whatever that is an activity that gives you release, do it and just keep moving forward, you know, and be patient with yourself. And I think for me, the last thing I'll say is stop having this big end goal. When I forgive, I'm going to be like, ah, no, just to keep moving forward. You'll know that you don't, you no longer feel that she's constrained that visceral reaction when you get there, but don't rush along yourself to get there with self-compassionate. 3 (27m 27s): Yeah, no then that's like, that's really, really beautiful advice. I think we have this misconception that once you, once you forgive everything is just like rainbows and butterflies and you're just going to like live there forever. And even if it's like someone who's maybe still in your life. So I think it's important. Like you said earlier, and you can forgive someone and that doesn't necessarily mean that they still have to be part of your life. Like you can let them go if they're not beneficial for you. So like those things aren't mutually exclusive, but there are cases where you, maybe it's a parent, maybe it's a child. Maybe it's someone who's just not going to leave. Right. Or it would take a lot more stressors for a, to actually be like to that extent. So it's like also reminding yourself that you can forgive them for X, Y, and Z. 3 (28m 10s): But if they're not doing the work, like those things are going to probably continuously bubble up. And then it's just going to have to be like a muscle that you're continually working on because they're going to be times where you take 10 steps backwards and you're like, I'm going to emotionally react. And the way that I'm not proud of. And it goes back to just like awareness and recognizing that and like taking personal accountability, sitting with it and then apologizing, if you need to apologize. And it goes back to like internal versus external viewpoints, right? So it's like, you can't say I blew up because you said X, Y, and Z, like, that's not true. I blew up because of my expectation of you and then you, that was my fault. 3 (28m 50s): And then that's how I'm processing the information and that's how I decided to respond. So you have two at the end of the day, like take personal responsibility and like, look internally. Otherwise you're just going to keep going back and back in back. And then you're gonna live in this, like the victim circle, which is like never run it. 2 (29m 6s): And that's powerful. I think everything you said is so powerful because you can't control another person, right. As much as we laugh to do that, but you have to take the control. You do have, you've got to take the moments that you can control and say, you know what? This is what I can control at this time. And like you're saying, it's so difficult if it's like a child whose in a parent's household, right. And maybe their parents are narcissistic abuse, have whatever the case is. And situations like that are incredibly difficult. And I grew up in a very abusive home. So it was very difficult to try and be a good while everything around you, so chaotic. But I think in moments like that, it's about reminding yourself that your environment is not your fault and you're going to get out of it. 2 (29m 48s): I think you have to train your mind into that conversation that blocks you or from your environment as hard as it is until you can get out, then be like, you know what? This person is doing, what they doing because they have their own fullness to hand and out, but they've got their own issues. I think personalizing is what hurts us because we like, you know, my mom that the us, because I'm unlovable or my dad left because I wasn't worthy. Or my partner lived because of ABC. And we internalize that because deep down it speaks to some wounding, all of us have gotten. Right. And you're like, it must be, it must be true that I'm unworthy must be true. That I'm This. Whereas in fact, it's true that your dad was wounded. Its true that he wasn't tapable of being a father is true. 2 (30m 30s): That it's one thing to do with you. So I think what you said is just powerful. You shouldn't personalize things. 3 (30m 38s): We did. It was probably like three years ago we kind of went to This. We call it brain camp and it's essentially like alpha brain training. So it had to get into like a flow state and the way that they introduce it to someone and the very beginning, like entry-level is like the easiest way to kind of get into that state is like through Forgiveness work. And at the time I was at a very different spot in my life. I was like, this is all woo. This is garbage. I can't believe where we say our time here. But nonetheless like my ego kind of wouldn't let me quit. So I like went in and I did the work and they'd have you make life a shortlist of people that you need to forgive. And like what you realize as like that list is like never ending. Like it's just, there's so many people that you like, you have, you know, emotional baggage connected too, that you need to release. 3 (31m 23s): So for me, I was like, there's I, there's no way I'm going to ever be able to forgive like this certain person, because what they did was a, it was too bad. Like you don't know what I went through. Like it was extreme. It wasn't like normal abuse. Like it was like, whatever you justify it. So when you're forced to forgive that person, cause that's like the goal right. Is you have to find the humanity in them and you have to like, they're not just the perpetrator, right? Like they're not just the bad guy and your story. Like they have their own story as well. So you have to say like, how did they get there? Because they don't think as much as I think some people are lost. I don't think the vast majority of people are for bad. Right? Like they're not born and just out hurting people. 3 (32m 4s): Like no one wants to be there. So like what pains did they have to endure it to get to that place? And when you kind of like keep taking steps back and back in back, and even to the point where maybe you have to do like inner child, work with them and put them in a space where they're vulnerable and they're being victimized and they're like this innocent little being, and then it's hard to have anything, but the compassion and love for that person. And I think that's when you really have that moment of like transcendence and then you reach that point where you have Forgiveness without like that physical or emotional response. And I try to explain this to people that like have a 1 (32m 40s): Toxic relationship and they can't forgive a partner for X, Y, and Z. And like you would just have to keep taking it back. And sometimes you can spend days, weeks, months, however long focusing on one person. But I guarantee you, if you step it back and enough, like you will get to a point where you can look at that person and have love for them regardless of what transgression happened. I mean, you literally hugged your father's murderer. You know what I mean? Like I don't think anyone else can say that it's not possible when you have this story, right? Like that's like such a wrong like that such an evil. And like you were able to find love and compassion. So I think it's very important to give everybody humanity. I think everyone deserves that regardless of the transgression. 1 (33m 22s): Otherwise we're never going to like move forward in life and is so true. I think everything you've touched on is so important in the healing process, in your own emotional journey. So many times what I've even found is it's interesting. Cause there's a story where I was breaking up with a partner. I was already doing this work and I was breaking up and I sat him down and I said, look, you know, I'll, I'll use Gerry for now. Look to me. I don't think things are working out. It's being fun, but I wish all the best, blah, blah, blah. And then he looked at me and he said, are you kidding me? And I thought, Oh, he's so devastated. He was heartbroken. You know, I mean, who wouldn't be off? Of course he is. And then he goes, you telling me, you can forgive a mass murderer, but you can also give me like, and I just found it's so ironic because the truth is at that time to give him this wasn't even featuring for Jerry at that time. 1 (34m 17s): And so it is important to highlight that, yes, I teach this book, but I continued to go through challenges. I continue to have to humanize people. I continue her having to practice my teachings. And it's not, it's not something that you can ever get through at the end of your life and say, yes, I lost it. But you can understand it enough to know that this is to empower myself. It's gone, nothing to do with this person. Because even our partners, even our most challenging partners, there's something in us that gets addicted to those quantities that may be toxic, right? The wounding within us, that hooks onto them. It's all wounding that locks on to the wounding then to become this wounded capital and in the acting out becomes like a pillar of our way that we are very empathetic. 1 (35m 3s): And we want to prove out that through, you know, I will be there for you, Bonnie and Clyde style through thick and thin. And then they expression of that is I'm going to deep with her. If I want, I'm going to be abusive. I'm going to be that. So I'm going to be that way. But then they chest speech to your nature, leading and chasing. And one thing that approval from a difficult person, right? Whether that your father was a difficult with your mother was difficult, which ever it was you seeking that approval and you believe that if I can make them do this, they will be great. If I can show them This they will be great. But when you address that building within yourself and you say, 2 (35m 38s): I need to forgive this person. Yes. But I also need to forgive myself and I need to work on this wounding that is so magnetically drawn to this person that it refuses for me to let this person go. And is that through that process of healing yourself? You almost here the dynamic in a sense, because you either get to choose to walk away and forgive from a fall or to get to be with in the union. And it should this person, of course not, not physical abuse or sexual or anything like that, but should they be, you know, just dust them? Well, something like that, you get to choose to say, I'm going to be present in the best way I can. And should you not be able to meet me? Yeah, unfortunately we've got a garb on waves, so it is so important. 2 (36m 20s): It's so important to understand that within ourselves, that sometimes the hardest person to forgive is You is the person to be at you in the mirror every single day. Okay. 3 (36m 30s): And would you say like that lack of personal understanding or like personal Forgiveness is why like some people end up in those relationships? You know, 2 (36m 39s): I hate to, I'll never victim blame. I don't blame anyone who's in an abusive relationship or any toxic environment. However, what I have seen is the fact that we hook on. I mean, I'm no different in my past relationships, I would hook on to someone because it wasn't a Dick's of quantity. There was a I when you over, it shows me I'm worthy. So there's a work issue. There's a language issue that's going on in your mind and a programming that you're not addressing. And you're not looking at that saying, okay, if this person can love you and they so difficult than they sold us. And they're so that it means a lovable because who else? I mean, you crack this terrible person or you crack this hard person, but the truth is it's like a dog chasing a car, right? 2 (37m 22s): What are you going to do when you catch it? It's just like, Oh s**t, do I have to look at myself now? It's interesting. How far are we willing to go to escape ourselves? And I think it's a really sad De to witness way that people turn to substances or the toxic relationship off to toxic relationship, because that fills that void. As long as there's noise in your environment, you don't need to deal with the noise within, but when this piece of your environment, that, that noise is loud, you want to escape it. Right? So really when you start showing yourself compassion, showing yourself kindness and forgiving yourself, that's when your patterns, programs and what you're attracted to begin to shift and change. 2 (38m 2s): I don't know if you've experienced this. 3 (38m 5s): Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a pretty like abusive situation and like my role models are exactly what you're describing and I've always been so curious as it's almost like a moth to a flame situation. And I do believe, and it goes back to a little bit of quantum physics and a little bit of mysticism, but that like, like attracts, like, so again, it's not like victim blaming, but there is something that's invisible that, or, you know, attracting these to people to one another. And it's like, I don't really believe in either. So I don't find it coincidental that one person, maybe it has 10 different partners throughout a lifetime and all of them are a reflection of each other. 3 (38m 46s): So I think that there's like a lesson there. It kind of needs to be mastered probably on both ends. And unfortunately, I don't think you can go anywhere until you have that like self actualization moment and again, like looking and really cause it's so easy when you're in like that kind of situation to like see the obvious pain points that are external. And I think like the more that you have on the outside, the easier it is to kind of ignore yourself and like the inner work that you have to do. What I'm curious about is, and then if you want, we can like totally cut this out. Cause it's like a little bit controversial, but when you see groups of people that are hurting, right. And Eric and I like my husband, we've talked about this at Lake, just because of you can't escape it on social media, especially in like the U S right now. 3 (39m 32s): So like, there's almost like we've gone back a hundred years, at least from my viewpoint in diversity and racial diversity division, I should say racial division. And it's instead of like coming together right. To like progress, it's almost like you just see more people purposely pitting one another against each other. And if you believe in epigenetics, slavery, wasn't that long ago. Right. And if you believe that trauma can get passed down from generation to generation and then that can show up and a bunch of different ways. And it's very understandable at this group of people is hurting. And when you're hurting, you lash out and sometimes at healthy ways in sometimes unhealthy ways. 3 (40m 13s): So I guess like as a community, I think it's like a little bit more abstract to tackle, but as a community and you see these people maybe lashing out in an unhealthy way, how do you acknowledge the pain? And then also try to like be a support system to help them grow out of it. Because personally, I don't think it's anything the government can fix. I don't think it's anyone on the outside can fix. I think it's cast to go down to an individual level. Right. And we need to like fix ourselves, everybody across the board. So I guess if in your perfect world, how would you go about Healing what's going on right now? 2 (40m 51s): Yeah. I think you had a really interesting point about individual Healing. I think it's not just America it's around the bowl. I think you seeing it playing out in different pockets, South African, too, that we are by this an undercurrent of just everyone feels like they're walking on eggshells. No one knows that really ruptured is going to happen. When someone is going to say something outrageous that really fuels the fire. Right? And the one argument I always hope is that no human being whose self a full self-actualize and healed is going to kneel on anyone's mic for five minutes and not feel anything in within that person is a really dead within an inside sales. 2 (41m 32s): And they're already so much pain that to them to carry out that act so deliberately. And so haphazardly is a wounded human being. And so for me, it is important what you're saying for people to individually heal, because right now what it feels like is people are talking past each other. People are looking at society where the government, whatever the bigger thing is to fix things. Whereas, yes, there's a systematic issue that we all have to acknowledge and address, which is the systematic racism systems of both in this way. And we know this, even when it comes to the individual issues, holding onto the anger to fight this issue for me does not. 2 (42m 12s): I don't want to eradicate any one's anger. I think it's incredibly important. I also feel though that we need to heal so that we will be on a speaking and it would be on I'll be there. And we all trying to get balls, pause. We are speaking from a place of conviction as we heal within ourselves and a lot from a place of pain, because by that has to do is if we take it away from politics and we bring it to a personal level, have you ever had a productive discussion when you were angry with your partner? Right? None of us have it's everything. The worst thing you thinking at that moment is exactly what's going to come out. And sometimes you're not even saying things that you Meet, sometimes you just save the s**t like this person, right? And sometimes I feel like that's what the scientists doing. 2 (42m 52s): We screaming so loud that we just want to get at each other. Instead of being like this, isn't working me, coordinate us and you call him Meet that it doesn't work. It's just name, coordinate at the end of it all, you're got to go to your corner, I'm going to go to Michael and, and that would of changed. So I think you're right. I think there is such a strong need for people to heal right now. And I think for me, it's us a very important, I'd say Healing as one. But another thing is to have really respectful and open dialogues with each other. I don't think it's when anyone tries to broach the subject of any sort of racial inequality or even sexism or whatever. If a man speaks on behalf of a woman and says, you know, I really hate the fact that the gold is not equal, whatever. 2 (43m 35s): And then people are like, Oh f**k you. We like, I'm like give us allies. I'm like, I'm a woman. Let him speak. You know, if males more males that have voting power and not changing legislature, I'm going to listen to him and paws that we haven't used to speak if he needs to speak to them speak. And I think that's where the problem I'm finding is people are so obsessed with idea that, Oh, I want to do it for myself. And I want my com that is like, but if we need help, right? Because the it's been working, has it been working? And so I think it's so important. I think both of what you said, I think one, we need to have conversations with each other that are respectful and To, I think people need to heal. If anything, covert has shown us how many people are in pain and our canning, this resentment and trauma, and people want to hurt people. 2 (44m 21s): Whether that's for you, the words on social media and trauma, and you have a huge following, I'm pretty sure that people sometimes just pick at you for no reason. They just come on your page. They follow you to pick 1 (44m 32s): On you. And you're like, what the f**k? Eat a sandwich, whatever. Like just, you know, whatever. But people want to hurt other people. And I think that it needs to change. So I feel like hurt people, hurt people, right? Like it's just, it's cyclical. And we kind of already, unfortunately went over the point that you can't change anybody. Right? Like that it's like something you have to do and Wordly. So I guess, how do you maybe place like seeds of influence or interact with these people? So for me, when it comes, we can use like the social media trolls as an example. 1 (45m 16s): I like, it depends on my day. It depends on my mood and where I'm at. Like, whether I just like, ignore it, delete it, engage with it in like a humorous fashion. Or I actually try to justify myself to a complete stranger, which is like, that makes it a zero sense. So from like my position, like what would you recommend that I do to like help that person? And I guess they have more of like an empathetic approach rather than like me trying to defend myself or me trying to like banter back and forth, like a productive discord there. Yeah. I think for you, it's incredibly difficult. And I say this because I think people look at it, then they like, well, I have the right to say whatever it wants to say. 1 (46m 0s): Right. For any public figure, not even, you know, industry, but your story about when you have a big following, you attract as many bees as you do flies. Like it just is that way for me. I think though, it's so difficult because if someone is to literally get a rise out to you and your response, we give them, it is a good response, right? Because you're the one here and they here, they unknown. You, you have a reputation you've built your life. You've built your brand. You've, you've done all of us. You got to the place you are in line. And so anything else has like a little dog barking at a lion, right. And we need the line, gives the low dog attention. 2 (46m 36s): Then it's like, Oh, yay. Look at me. I got a response. 1 (46m 39s): Oh, right. And so, so I think the best way, at least for me, if I was looking at it from the outside, looking in, I'd say the way you are is perfect. Like, I think it's just the content you're putting out to time to open people's minds. You're trying to expand, you know, how people think that is utilized when you're having important dialogues and you're sharing important stuff. And I think its to continue doing that, I think as far as engagement goes, people want to pick on you and time with you and whatever the case it is, those people on cooking to be healed or they just want the reaction. They just want you to respond. And whether you responded an angry way, a humorous way, whatever way they just like, she responded to me. I'm important. I mean, people even celebrate the fact that people block them. 1 (47m 21s): I'm like, are you like, are you okay? Okay. The block me. And I'm like, yeah, seeing that, you know? So I don't know. I just, I think for you, I mean the fact that y'all having this conversation, the fact that you've engaged with other people on your podcast have a different thinking time to educate the World and alternative Healing or thinking or believe systems that's important and using your platform and understanding you have a platform to do that is important. As far as commenting goes. I don't think, I don't think just don't engage with that person. Yeah. I think that's probably wise. I need to like really just tell myself, put a post it somewhere that I see it when I'm like going through everything it's so difficult with in human, I've got a podcast called coffee with Candice ironic, but I'm like, Candice love to talk to sorry To have at some point. 1 (48m 19s): But I spoke to her name is Abby pumper is I think she's someone you might want to speak to To she's a former secret service agent and she protected Barack Obama and Michelle Obama. She's a judge on spike games and all these other things. But basically now what she does is she teaches people, body language and all these kinds of things and self protection and confidence. And so basically she said something, an interview that I just thought, Oh that's amazing. And she said, just because someone throws you the ball, does it mean you have to catch it? Like you can just let it go. She's like in an argument in life and anything you choose, you give it life when you engage with it. 1 (48m 59s): But you can literally just to get the bulb bounce off and you keep going about your way. And it actually sometimes has a bigger reaction on that person that engaging with it. The so I was like, Oh, that's amazing. And is really interesting. Cause you don't think what was, we were watching something. And they were like, just because you have a tool, does it mean to use it? It's like the same case. And you're like, Oh of course. And its like so obvious and you say it out loud, but it's harder when you're human right. That you want to react emotionally. I feel like that's something that I constantly try to improve with myself is I am the type of person. Like I would bleed dry all the world's problems. Like I get so invested in it. 1 (49m 41s): If you like tell me this story, I'm going to feel it with you. I'm going to want to fight with you. And then there was like a whole another issue over here. And then I go over there. So it's like trying to like not emotionally react all the time and like being able to focus energy on one specific thing. And then hopefully that one thing helps trickle down effect instead of just like add here, here, here, here. And then he even said something wrong. So now I have to like step in sitting in is being able to like realize that you're not your emotions and like let that play out. Take a step back. Because a lot of the times when you have like a knee jerk reaction to like anything, it's probably not going to wind up so good for you. Even if you have like the best intentions I've caught myself in a couple of holes. 1 (50m 21s): Like, you know, I think it's also important for you to give yourself a break and realize that even with monks, they have to separate themselves from humanity to become a black, you know, spirtually in lights and, and protect that and whatever. So the difficulties within these directions with humanity, right, that Buddha like under the tree is and credible. When it comes off like any test into a wreck with humanity, it's like, Oh I think, I think being a human being is understanding that it's okay to be triggered because you do feel just the same way as you feel so beautifully for people's causes and you feel the pain, it's the same way you feel inside. And you're like, Whoa, I'm a good person I'm trying to do good for the world. 1 (51m 2s): Then she's a good person in that person is a good person. No, we needed to change those. So it's hard to not internalize, but I think it is important to almost validate yourself and give yourself more compassion than all that other people around you who don't see it or who don't value what it is. I think that's interesting. It's the air to stress something on the board. So he wanted to ask, I guess when it comes to like the need of belonging and I, again, we see it so much right now and like the sense of like tribalism. So how do you not, I guess like fall victim to that because I feel like once we start labeling things and identifying like such a specific way, is it just to again create like so much division and like, this is a time where we're supposed to be like kind of coming together and not like separating ourselves to get that strength, to not want to like, just go into like your tribe and people that kind of are influencing your train of thought, which maybe is not self serving in a positive way. 1 (52m 1s): And it's difficult because I think as we animals human beings, instincts of our animals and we pick animals of that back in the day, you know, if you are in your tribe and you got separated, the electricals of your survival, we're a very slim thing that has just changed them the way we operate. Now, we need that validation from social media or from people who look like us or a sound like as it were to have opinions like us. I think for me though, it is so incredibly important to understand that it's within communities that are different to you, that you learned the most and always be willing to question. I think that's what people don't do enough off just because you just, something does not make it fat, right? Just because you think something doesn't make an effect. 1 (52m 42s): It's so important to be with people with different to you who can challenge that thinking we can challenge that belief system because if you and all your friends every weekend, but even the same thing and you do the same thing and all of you guys have the same results. So it's like, of course that was going to happen. But when you start adding a friend that looks like this or that that's that in different industries in, in different places, all of a sudden you're like, Hmm, I'm actually learning a lot from these people because now you becoming a bit around a human being. And I think for me, it's so important not to fall into the dynamics, I'm a black female. So therefore I can only a group of black females. But instead using the fact that I get to operate in different spaces and say, no, no, we get along. 1 (53m 23s): We having a great conversation. Why can't you do that with other people that look like me, 2 (53m 27s): You know, LGBTQ plus community. I mean, I'm not a part of the community, but I will gladly speak up for the community. I'll be like, look, they should have the right to be as miserable as the rest of us. If they want to get made them get married. It's so important to understand that. First of all, that you have to be willing to have an open mind and question your beliefs. And I think that's where everything stems from. If you went into question, what you believe then You you less likely to become clique-ish or tribalistic or moving into a little corn and sign off the World because truth is that's where it's comfortable, but we don't grow in comfort. We grow in beyond in different spaces and arenas, right? 2 (54m 8s): So I think for me, that's probably the one thing I'd say, but to judge us that like you can't pull people out of their comfort zone because they resist write anything that feels forced, people resist, but we use show through your actions that I'm doing this. I'm going up there speaking to this person, I'm speaking to you. No, a Democrat or Republican or whatever. And because still have lunch together. It's not a big deal. Then it shows other people that, Oh, well she could do it. Then it's not going to kill me to do it. I don't know what your point of view on that. 3 (54m 39s): So I totally agree. I think that you need to have exposure to as many different ideas, ideals, people theology as is possible because then that's when you kind of craft your own, like you don't know what you actually believe until you're exposed to other people's thoughts and ideas, right? Like if you have one train of thought and you're just looking for information, that's like reinforcing that you're not actually learning anything. And if someone like actually goes as far as a question for you and says like, Y and then you're like, Oh well that's because I feel this way. And you can't use in your emotions to validate any thought that that's, that's not accurate. Right? You need facts behind whatever it is. 3 (55m 20s): So for me, another thing that Eric and I are like focusing right now is like education. And I don't know what it's like, where you're at in South Africa, but in the States, the exposure for a diversity of thinking is gone when it comes to universities and even just really grade school, like it's, everybody is on one side and their pitching kind of won narrative. And it is the idea. There's a book called the coddling of the American mind. And it's saying how we have created these kids and young people that now think thoughts are dangerous or a different belief systems are dangerous instead of saying no, like, this is how you get stronger, right. This is how you get resilient is by like someone challenging your beliefs. 3 (56m 4s): And maybe at the end of the day you leave and you are exactly where you started, but now you know why. Right. So for me, I'm like, how do we get back to a point where we think it's fun to have a conversation with someone who sees the world differently because it is right. Other than how boring would it be? If everything was the same and everyone thought the same thing, like you need challenges 1 (56m 25s): And you need someone like a sparring partner, if you will, in, in good fun, like not obviously to like try to degrade someone or whatever, but it's, you know, debating can be fun and like discussing different ideologies can be fun. How do we get back to a place where we see it that way instead of like, Oooh, we can't talk about that because the common understanding is, but I think you saw on the MOC there. I think it's more coming back to one word for me. And that word is respect. I think that's what we've lost in today's society. I think with social media and everything, having such easy access to almost everyone, right? People have lost the element of this is a human being. This person has feelings. 1 (57m 6s): If someone said this to me, you know, it's almost like to give it back to like what you learned in the playground. If something, to get to see you, how would you feel? And I think now, because we live in a society where you can tweet something completely outrageous, disrespectful, rude, and have 20,000 other people retweeted that same nonsense and no one's stopping and saying, Whoa, do we have all the facts? Oh, is that her choice? Or this choice or whatever choice, you know? And for me, I think the De, we lost the respect for one another. It's the, De everything kind of started to go backwards. You know, we it's okay. We need to be completely PC about this and that and this and that, because not like we have to police people's language because there's no fait that people will actually use the language efficiency and respect for the REITs. 1 (57m 51s): So it's, it's such an interesting place and time, I think, for the wool to be in, I think its, it goes back to what you said earlier or which is like what you resist you per says. So it's like by the narrative of like PC and like policing language, like by forcing that, and especially for through campus policies specifically, you're kind of creating more of a harsh reaction on the other side and they're like, well, no, like you can't police what I say because of the constitution, blah, blah blah. So then they use, instead of saying like just having a regular discourse, like they're like purposely saying outrageous things to like prove a point. So it kind of like backfired in a way. So it's like, you have to just trust people at the end of the day. 1 (58m 31s): Like you have to like give them that freedom, trust that they're going to do the right thing. And then I think that also goes back to like, people are going to hurt your feelings. And that sucks. Obviously one of the things I say all the time is like, just like, don't be a Dick. Like if I could give any advice, it's just like, don't be a Dick. Like let people do whatever they want. You can disagree with it. As long as you're not physically hurting anybody, you don't have to engage with them. If their a mean person don't engage. But as long as that's like your mentality, I think everyone would get along just fine. But I think we have this idea that like we're supposed to be protected from language and we were supposed to be protected from people hurting our feelings and everyone has to agree with us and everything has to like have padding around it. 1 (59m 11s): You're not going to become resilient that way. You're actually going to like become weaker that way because its like that whole, like, it doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Right. But for some reason, like we forgot like that. Very ancient, a bit of wisdom. 3 (59m 23s): And so somehow we have to kind of like get back there again, our influencers back there, get our teachers back there. Everything, I dunno, it's a lot easier said than done. Right? 2 (59m 32s): But I think your motto is pretty much what I was. Society's like a, you know, don't be a Dick, don't be an a*****e. Don't be a Dick. Don't be a Dixie yourself. That's really, if there is nothing else you ever listen to, that should be our only guiding principle. And it is important for us to where the way we implement systems whereby in things that are incredibly racist or an incredibly six are so incredibly whatever. And when I say this, I mean like it has to be a spectrum of very miserable spectrum of what qualifies as we think we can say, okay, we know for sure you're going out and you know, wearing a KKK, you know, where like a trust, the guy, whatever it is that represents racist ideology, that's a no go zone, right? 2 (1h 0m 18s): Because that's harmful to other people. And if you going around, that's what that or the other, this is harmful to people. But I think you're right. I think we are living in a time where by everything is so completely misguided in outrage. I think for me, the only thing I think is dangerous about this time is the idea that if everything is seen as outrageous, the really outrageous things stop standing out and they stopped buying a dress because we saw it like, you know, someone gave me a compliment that I feel like that was sexual harassment, that a site that was a company called Susan, like taking it and keep in mind, you know like, but it wasn't like physically follow in danger, keep a moving goal, take her to say thank you and move on. 2 (1h 0m 59s): You know? And I get, everyone's got a different tolerance, but we cannot be cannot police that the same as a man who was really physically abusive or really harassing a woman for me, it's like, that's what we hit the danger spot whereby the claims that they all seen as the same equal of importance. 3 (1h 1m 18s): Oh, absolutely. And like I say that all the time when you kind of move the definition of like these very dangerous things, like what is actual violence, right? Like we're now saying like the speeches violence, like some people are actually saying that and in rare instances, like that can lead to violence. Right. But the speech itself is not. So I think it's very important to have like a hard definition of what these like evil and bad things are because it makes everything else. It takes away from things that actually need our attention. Right. And you can use like the sexual harassment as a, like a really good example. It's like there needs to be align. So a compliment it's a compliment and whether or not you appreciated it, but that's not really relevant. 3 (1h 1m 59s): Right. But let's focus our attention on like things that matter where like Women are actually getting stoned to death in some countries because they've been raped. So like in our country, like I see like these feminists that are fighting for what I consider like ridiculous Hills to die on and like focus your energy somewhere else. Right? Like there are women that are actually being oppressed 1 (1h 2m 20s): That really need your help, your influence. Like especially if you have a big audience. So really focus our energy on matter is that like deserve our attention. Instead of like again, wanting to be victimized in some way, I feel like a lot of people that are fighting these battles and like dying on these like ridiculous Hills, if you will, it goes back to like not wanting to look inwardly. So you should focus on other people's problems because then you're not forced to face your own. And I think sometimes, you know, it's, well-intended right. Like no one wants to see someone being rude to someone else or hurting someone else. And of course, if you see something wrong, do something, but at the end of the day, you also, again, can't redefine these very fundamental words, right? 1 (1h 3m 2s): It's very important for the progress of everybody that violence remains violence like sexual harassment is what it is. And you don't get to cherry pick what that means because you had a certain Healing if you will. Absolutely. And I think for me, the biggest indicates all of this was when you, everything was getting spotted with a me too, which was such an important movement. And then there was, I forgot who that actor was, but he'd gone in a bad date pretty much, if it really will be summed up the evidence on the fact that this we can speak. So that ERs that, and he was a part of me to, when we decide for that, the fact that we found out that, Oh, he just moved on a really terrible date and she hates it. The fact that she slipped with him and you know, she made it a central decision though, two sleep with him. 1 (1h 3m 43s): She, it wasn't forced and coerced and it was like, but just because you've regretted an incident as way to make it harassment drivers. And so I think any time, I think that's much more important to focus. Like you're saying like the big topics, but I also think that in society today is becoming much more difficult to do. So, because I think I look at social media and I look at Twitter, like one of the platforms I really can't stand in many ways. And I see how people get bullied almost into making statements, into saying things in to standing for things. And I'm like, okay, yes, but first let's dissect. What's going on yet before we had these mess of outrageous statements, you know? And I think that it is a reward system though. 1 (1h 4m 24s): We live in a society where it's water to be outraged. Right. The angrier that you aren't for something it's like, yeah, I got you. You get the most likes, retweets, whatever, whatever. And people spot painting You I was like, yeah, you know, that post, it was so outraged and is not cool anymore to be calm and peaceful and looking for in a piece and working on yourself. Like those things on. Cool. No at the end goes cool now. So I find that dangerous. Absolutely. It almost becomes like, I remember what the me too movement like started in a good place. Right. Because like, I would say almost every woman I know has a cat, an incident, like a real incident that's happened that probably shouldn't have happened. 1 (1h 5m 5s): But I feel like, I mean, there's a lot of men too, that they just don't come forward. Cause everyone would laugh at them. Right. Like, I mean, I've talked to men that have been sexually harassed and sexually molested by Women. So its across the board, it's a problem across the board. And then we somehow turned that into believe all Women well that does it make sense? Right? Because people inherently have flaws and sometimes people lie and sometimes people misconstrue whether it's intentional or not. So like you can't have that as a blanket statement. So then it turned into like again, it goes into an, an aggressive state for some reason, like that is like are a neutral. So instead of helping women that actually need Women now it's like, well someone grazed my shoulder or the wrong way. 1 (1h 5m 48s): So we're going to ruin this man's life. And because she's a woman and she said it, then we have to believe Her and like, no man's allowed to talk on the subject. Only women are allowed to have issues. So it goes back to like trying to find that unity, I guess, and like stop saying like only certain people are allowed to have an opinion on anything. Yeah. That's a big one. I think that's the big one. I think as soon as you start saying only a certain group of people can speak on certain things. I think it becomes very dangerous because then whenever you confined speech, that's when the like little cells get formed, right. Because people are going to express themselves. Not that, that just comes in. If we unite as a group and they say we have a hateful agenda and we have, we are a woman and we are a pro all of these terrible things. 1 (1h 6m 35s): And we can't say certain things out in the public, we gotta unite. We all gonna find each other somewhere and people always find each other. And I think anytime you mute people, the angles up to a point where people feel like they're going to express this anyway. And I think for me, it's microaggressions a lot dangerous then over to, for me, I think people are quick to call out the big things, the big transcriptions, which I think is important if you really make a big blooper. But I think for me, like more importantly than, you know, piecing someone with a policing, what someone is saying is like watching people's behavior actions and belief system, right? It does this person. Are there any to of person, are they voting correctly? Are they supportive of black rights, gay rights, This rights, whatever. 1 (1h 7m 18s): Have to look at people in the list before you call them racist or sexist or the, whatever the case is. You have to really look at a human being and be like, Oh, they right. The evidence to support it. Or what did they say? Something that had do the To and someone got offended because we are not talking about, of course that people got, and they'll say really racist shuts. We speak with a lot of people who maybe say something either to a slip off the tongue where the brand something, and they'd got a monkey or a banana or whatever and what they dress a child that's adopted and a banana. And the like, Oh, you're calling her a child, a monkey. I was like, I'm not going away. It was just a cutesy shirt that had a banana and I put up and he likes the banana tee shirts. Sometimes there's just like a level of ignorance too. That was just like misunderstood. 1 (1h 7m 60s): And how do we get through ignorance if we are not willing to have conversations, it's just this weird Lupe that society is finding itself in right now. So on an ending note, what would you say your life mission is like, what do you want to kind of achieve? Oh my gosh. I think for me, it's just, this seems like a really big statement, but I just want to leave the world better than I found it. And so for me, that has transpired as teaching people how to heal and get through resentment. But I think that it doesn't have to be that for people. I think for me, it's like, you know, that smile that you'd give a tailor, like the guy in the bodega or like, you know, you walk past someone to help them with something. I mean, it's in those small actions, it's the most small interactions when you go to people and you genuinely kind, and you genuinely care about other people and you put your judgments on hold. 1 (1h 8m 49s): I think we live in such a judgemental society. That is like, everything is like, Oh, you know, and I think for me, it's just, if I can pass on and people are like, Oh my gosh, my interaction with that Postma was amazing. They really lifted me in a bit of place, a bit of state for whatever the case is. I think my life would feel like I did something that something and most of yours I'm curious mine is probably pretty similar. I'm finding like the most fulfillment so far from like this whole podcasting venture that I'm doing. So for me, it's to hopefully like influence people, to be more curious and to like ask more questions and to really like discover themselves and to try to view things with a more empathy and it can happen on such a small level. 1 (1h 9m 34s): Like it can be like 10 people. That's great. I can make 10 people happier and like, maybe like really find themselves and not be a Dick. Then I'm good with that. That's awesome. We've time to just be the people realize don't be a Dick, right? The third takeaway because can be summed up that don't be a day where you can make like apparel like merchandise. It exactly. We've got a business. Can you tell everyone where they can find more of you, how they can support you and love to like help you promote anything you're working on? Absolutely. So everything that I'm working on is on my website, www.candicemama.com. 1 (1h 10m 16s): And my book is on there. My podcast is on there. Everything I'm doing is on the Candice Mama is all of my social media. So yeah. That's, that's it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your time and I think your messages awesome. So everyone pleased the check her out a thank you. Candice I've appreciate it. This and it's been fun. It's been great meeting you. Yeah, it's been awesome. 3 (1h 10m 38s): That's it for this week's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have the time please rate and review and you can always hit subscribe to stay up to date with our latest episodes. I hope to have you back 0 (1h 10m 50s): <inaudible>.