#103 Ana Lorena Fabrega - The Learning Game, Give your kids the education they deserve, How does Elon Musk's Program Synthesis work?

0 (0s): What I've realized with socializing in school is that it's very fabricated and, and again, it's, it's changed a lot since, you know, I were in school like now, things are, there's a quote in my book that says that, you know, kids nowadays in school have twice as many restrictions as incarcerated felons, which is in, whoa, it's insane. 2 (22s): Hello everybody. You are listening or watching Chatting with Candace. I'm your host, Candace Warbeck. Before we jump into the episode, if you could hit that like and subscribe button wherever you are listening or watching, that would help me out a lot. It would help you out a lot so you don't miss a single episode. This week we have AnaA Fabrega on. AnaA is a former teacher she taught in New York, Boston, and Panama. She quickly left the traditional teaching models to become an entrepreneur, and she is the chief evangelist at Synthesist and author of The Learning Game. I was really excited to have AnaA on and I feel like this whole theme of education and childhood development just came, kind of came up out of nowhere and the perfect timing for me and my family as we're trying to figure out what we are gonna do with our littles in school. 2 (1m 8s): So hopefully you find some really inspiring information in this content. You learn something new, check out the book. I just know it's gonna be incredible. I just ordered mine right before I hopped on with AnaA. So without further ado, please help me welcome AnaA Fabrega. AnaA. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm so glad that the timing worked out. As I was just saying, I think everything was meant to be because we accidentally stumbled upon this theme of education and childhood development, unlearning school, all of the things. So this episode is just gonna fit in perfectly with the next few. 0 (1m 43s): Wonderful, thank you so much for having me, Candice. I look forward to this conversation. 2 (1m 48s): So it's like, where to begin, right? Like where to begin, because education is one of those like ships that seem is so hard to steer that by the time you start wanting to correct for the obstacle ahead that it's kind of too late. So I guess let's start with your journey with education. I was looking a little bit into your story and I resonated pretty deeply with you moving around a ton. I did as well. And I don't know what your experience was like. I hated that. I hated moving around a ton. My experience within the education system was abysmal, and we can definitely get into that, but I guess let's start with your journey. 0 (2m 28s): Yeah, so, so I was born in Panama, but then we, when I was a few months old, we started to jump around because of my dad's job. So by the time I was 14, I had lived in 10 different, in seven different countries, and I, I had attended 10 different schools and like you mentioned somewhere, traditional schools, non-denominational, some really, really religious schools, some that were a little bit more progressive, but I actually did not get a chance to go to a Montessori, which is something that, you know, I kind of wish I had. But, but it really, like you said, at the time, it was really challenging, I guess, I guess my experience was a little bit more positive because my mom did an excellent job kind of framing all the moves and everything was sort of like an adventure and something to be excited about. 0 (3m 13s): And so I think that kids really emulate their parents and their attitudes, and so I really absorbed that energy that my mom has. We were very much alike. And so, however you probably know this as well, being the new girl over and over and over again is really challenging. So I found myself always trying to fit in and sort of trying to say the right things and, and trying to please people and, and, you know, and I did have my own personality and everything, but at the same time, it's, it's inevitable, right? When you're constantly moving, you, you wanna have friends and you wanna kind of like adjust and, and adapt to your new environment. So, so that's that. But then, and I realized this as an adult, right? But I, in order to adapt to the academic expectations, you know, sometimes I was pulled out in the middle of a school year, sometimes it was, you know, towards the end, sometimes I had to skip grades or repeat grades. 0 (4m 1s): So it was like I was all over the place, right? And so in order to navigate a very flawed system, which we'll be talking about in a bit, I had to pick up. And what I talk about in my book, my book's called The, Learning Game, I picked up on, on on the game of school. So the game of school's probably gonna be familiar to you and to a lot of people is sort of what are the things that you need to do that students need to do in order to check all the boxes and not get in trouble and pass the tests and advance to the next grade level. So it looks like, you know, sit down, be quiet, sit still, you know, raise your hand for that participation grade every now and then so that, you know, it appears as if you're paying attention. Make sure that you don't question your teacher or authority so you don't get in trouble. 0 (4m 45s): You kind of pick up on little strategy to pass the test and the multiple choice. And, and it's sort of the things that I did and that a lot of kids do to get the school learning out of the way so that you can actually get to do the things that you want to do as a kid, right? Which is when you're exploring on your own, when you are letting your curiosity unleash when you are doing things and exploring things without the fear of being judged by, you know, a teacher, a parent, or a grade. And I think that that's when real learning happens. I think that what happens in school is really an imitation of learning. And we'll, we're gonna talk about that more as well. But I ended up playing this game over and over and over again until I graduated high school and I became really good at it, but I didn't really enjoy it, right? 0 (5m 27s): What I enjoyed was, again, what was happening outside of school that my mom really facilitated all those learn real authentic learning experiences outside of school. And so I had this like natural desire to explore things and, and learn about everything. I was so curious. And I loved talking and explaining what I was learning to everybody, even those who weren't interested. And so I thought, you know, I, I wanna become an educator. I wanna work with kids. I find them fascinating. I think that it's something worth spending my time doing. And, and I get to learn so much from kids every day, right? Like, you have kids, I, I believe, right? Yes. So they're, they're, they're like, they're like teachers, right? They, they're here to teach us, I believe, more than we teach them. 0 (6m 8s): And so I was very excited about working in education, becoming a teacher first. And so when I was going through my undergraduate studies, I went to NYU and I studied childhood education, special education and psychology. And as part of the program, I had to student teach, I think it was over 200 hours in different placements in schools around New York. And I got to really observe kids from the f you know, for the first time in a very passive way, you know, like from the back of the PLAs classroom for hours and kind of seeing the, the different dynamics and keep in mind that these were like different schools and different grade levels around the city. And, and that's when it dawned on me, right? Like all these kids, or most of them were playing the game of school, right? 0 (6m 50s): They were not really engaged on what was happening. They were not excited to learn, they were not really, things weren't really sticking after the test. They were merely going through the motions and they all knew what to do, not to get in trouble, how to please their teachers, so what to do to pass the test, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, wow. Like here's where we're stuck in education. It was sort of like the first time that it hit me, right? Like I recognized the game, I was an expert in it myself, right? But I hadn't quite realized that it was universal. And so I realized like, we're stuck. The, you know, education is stuck because kids are imitating their teachers instead of thinking for themselves. They're learning how to fit in and please everyone instead of like learning how to stand out, which is what the world rewards people for and how to do their own thing and how to sort of like double down on their strengths. 0 (7m 38s): Like, no, they spend so much time, you know, teachers trying to remediate their weaknesses and finding what's wrong. And you know, they're learning how to follow instructions instead of how to figure things out for themselves when, you know, the real world doesn't come with instructions. And as we've seen with the pandemic and everything, it's chaotic and everything's constantly changing. So I feel like, you know, they're, they're not really learning how to be prepared for this kind of world that that, that they're gonna be going to. And so I just became really discouraged 'cause I realized it's gonna be very hard to make a difference, right? Or, or, or make an impact within the system. But I was like, I'm gonna try my best. You know, I, I think I can do things differently in my classroom. And so I then became a teacher and I taught in New York, in Boston and Panama for about five years. 0 (8m 23s): And I, I did things differently in my classroom. I tried my best to create an environment that was welcoming, that the kids were super excited to come to school every day. And I did this by giving them tons of choices and accountability and making them part of, you know, the decisions that we made in the classroom. I wasn't sort of like the sage and stage, the, you know, the one that was like imparting all the knowledge. I was like, no, we're constructing this together. You guys get to teach me, I get to teach you. We're doing this. It's a collaborative effort. And that really empowered them to take ownership over their learning. I tried to deviate from the curriculum as much as I could, although I didn't do it nearly as much as I would want, you know, would've wanted to in order to focus on the things that I saw that they were already interested in and curious about, and that they wanted to learn. 0 (9m 5s): You know, I didn't have to force them to learn about these things. Like they were just sponges, right? Like the way kids are. And so we were able to do that and, and kids were excited when they were in my class, but then I noticed that as time went by and they went on to different grades and different teachers, even though they had great teachers, as kids got older, they would start to lose that spark that we're all born with, right? That desire to learn that, you know, lifelong learning attitude and that curiosity and that, you know, asking all these questions and, you know, they, they kind of forgot the joy and the things that they used to love in my classroom, like reading and math and writing. And I was like, well, what's going on? So I started to ask a lot of questions, right? And I started to sort of dig into the history of education and where did this come from and why do we do the things the way we do? 0 (9m 48s): And, and so sort of like, what are the alternatives? And it turns out that kids are, we're designed to learn, right? Like that's how humans are, are are born. Like we want to learn about everything. And you know, I have a 10 month old right now and, and I, and I see him and he's constantly learning. He wants to touch everything. He wants to break everything. He's, he can stay with something for like long time trying to figure it out and, and he's not scared and he takes risks and it's like he just wants to learn about everything, right? And he doesn't talk yet, but I'm sure that once he starts, he's gonna be asking why. And, you know, all the things that kids naturally do, what happened? That's them wanting to learn, right? That's that long, like lifelong learning attitude. But then what happens is we put them into this like structured environments that go against everything we know about kids and how they learn and how they develop, right? 0 (10m 39s): We no longer let them ask all the questions that they have. We force them to sit still when we know that kids need to be releasing so much energy and running around until they're exhausted. But no, we instead put them, we ask them to sit up to, you know, be quiet, not ask questions for hours a day. Of course, they start like fidgeting of course, and then we're like, oh, they have ADHD or you know, it's like, no, right? And then here's your label. Or oh, you, you can't read by seven. There's this rule made up rule because if you look at the research, there's no research that backs this up. There's a ton of research that shows how everyone matures at different paces and learns how to read at different paces. Yet in school we're like, oh no, if you don't read by seven, you know, reading remediation group and here's your label and here's your label. 0 (11m 20s): And so all these things that come naturally in the kids, suddenly they have no choices over what they're learning, how they're assessed, you know, how they dress to go to school, you know, with the uniforms. Like there's so many things that, that are imposed in them that of course no wonder they lose interest and they stop playing the game of learning that comes naturally to them and they start playing the game of school. They're trying to survive a flawed system. And so as I started to realize this, I also realized, you know, it doesn't matter how much I try, I'm not gonna make a difference within system because it's a, something that has been around for so many years. There's, it has so much bureaucracy and structure and people and, and stakeholders and, and, and, you know, there's a lot of politics involved. 0 (12m 2s): Like, it's really hard to make things move on a different direction. And so I was like, I'm better off leaving the system and trying to explore Alternative learning experiences. And I wasn't sure what I was gonna find. I had never, you know, explored this world and I was very positively surprised that we can talk about that. But, but, but it was just very clear that, that I had to leave the classroom setting like that traditional classroom setting. And across this conversation, throughout this conversation, you're gonna hear me say a lot schools and schools, and I mean like traditional schools, of course I am aware that they are many schools that are doing things differently. They're project-based schools, they're Montessori schools and they that have like other more progressive approaches. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about like the, the traditional schools, right? 0 (12m 46s): That happen to be the majority. And so, yeah, so I ended up here, you know, this was like about almost four years ago, and I started exploring what were, what were the options, like how I started asking questions like, how can we go to the root of what makes kids excited to learn? How can we create learning experiences that are worth their time, right? Like it's their childhood years, their most important years. Like how should we be spending this time? What do we know about this world that's constantly changing that, that kids are, what are the skills that they're gonna need in order to navigate something that's constantly changing? It's not, you know, all this like one size fits all curriculum 'cause all that knowledge is outdated or it's constantly changing or you know, they can acquire it on Google or you know, a click away with the internet. 0 (13m 28s): So it's like, what, what should we be teaching kids? So that's what I've been exploring for the past years. I joined a startup called Synthesis, which we can talk about as well. That's sort of like at the edge of innovation. So I went from being on one side of the spectrum, right? The very, very brick and mortar traditional schools to suddenly like being able to explore with all the things that I've always dreamed about. And I think we're onto something really interesting there. And I was able to see that there are a lot of people working in the Alternative education space and that the options are growing and that there are alternatives for parents. Even if you can't pull your kids out of traditional schools, there are things that you can do to make sure that they, that you're preparing them for the real world and that you are restoring that love for learning that's been lost in traditional schools. 0 (14m 11s): And so that's what I talk about, that's what I write about, that's what my book is about. And, and yeah, and I'm happy to talk about it. 2 (14m 17s): Oh my gosh, all the things I've so many questions and so many places I wanna go. I guess let's start with the The, Traditional School. And we talk about these things that seem to like absolutely crush curiosity that punish you for exercising, like autonomy or agency or dare you say sovereignty, right? Like you are, there is very much a hierarchy and you try to instill to the kids like you are at the bottom of the totem pole. So much so that like you can't even honor your body if you have to go to the bathroom. Like you can have a teacher tell you, you know, you have to wait, which is insane to me. And some people might think that I'm being like overdramatic and all of these little things don't really mean something, but I firmly believe and I will die on this hill that nothing is by accident. 2 (15m 6s): All of this stuff was put into place for a very specific reason. And you can go into the history of education and it goes like pre-industrial era, right? So we kind of took that from the Prussians and what did the Prussians develop education for? It was to create good subordinate citizens for a dictatorship. And then we obviously took that added capitalism to that, which I love capitalism. I'm not saying like I'm anything but, but like it was to make really good factory workers. So that bottom line was big and shareholders had their profits and yada yada. So that was the world that was operating. Then fast forward to 300 years, here we are today and we are living in a gig economy. We're living in a place where there's now a job called AI Whisperer, which didn't exist a year ago, right? 2 (15m 52s): So why are we using a model that was originated to create a good citizen and then a good factory worker when all of that seems pretty obsolete? And I think that a lot of people have this movement of like, of finding your autonomy and finding your sovereignty and your power, and all of these little things do matter to a young developing brain because they are a sponge. So if you put them in this place for eight hours a day, five days a week, where they are being told, don't honor your body or your body's knowing, don't challenge authority, don't ask me why, just listen, this is wrong, this is wrong. Even if you get to the right answer, which is my experience a lot, if you were doing a math equation and you didn't do it exactly how they wanted, even if the the answer was right, they're like, well, you're still losing points and you're like, this doesn't make any bit of sense. 2 (16m 43s): So it absolutely needs to be, I think just like torn down and rebuilt. But I don't know how that even happens because we're forced to pay a tax to perpetuate a bad product that has bad outcomes. And you look across the globe, and if you look more like the Danish models, their kids don't even start going to school until they're seven, right? Like, so this whole whole idea that you have to be able to read and write and all of these things, it seems like an immense amount of pressure for what, like these are the years that you are supposed to be creative and curious and play and fantasy and all of those things and test wild theories and not constantly be told that you are wrong or not good enough or that's crazy, that's stupid. That won't work. 2 (17m 23s): I mean, if you were to look at someone like Elon and say he wants to go and like have colonies on Mars, like you would be like, absolutely not, but try to tell that. No, go 0 (17m 32s): To the corner. Right? Exactly. Exactly. Oh, you, you get it Candice like everything you've said, that's, that's exactly the things that I talk about. Those are exactly the questions that I have. And what I've been going crazy over the past year is trying to figure out, you know, why, and I don't think I have a clear cut answer, but if you look at all the other industries, they've all, you know, most of them keep, you know, innovating and evolving with our needs, right? But like you very well said, education, we continue to use a model that was created 200 years ago. Yes, it's been tweaked a little bit here, a little bit there. In past years we've added a little bit of technology here, but the outcomes are pretty much the same. 0 (18m 13s): And I would even argue that we've made things even worse, you know, since the 1960s where we studied, we started adding all this standardized tests in order to measure learning, which originally were intended to have sort of a baseline, but then ended up just becoming the whole point of education to the point where everything revolves around these tests. And the kids sort of miss the point of learning. Like they, they think they're learning to pass a test because they are. And you know, that's how they enter gifted programs. That's how they go into remediation groups, that's how they pass grade levels. Teachers are held accountable based on the, you know, results of their students. Schools compete against each other, nations compete against each other. Like everything revolves around this test. And that has really made things worse because if kids did not have time before or teachers to teach the things that, you know, that, that are not in the curriculum, but that we know that matter more now is even worse now. 0 (19m 5s): Everything, you know, basically everything is test prep from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. The people that create the curriculums are the same people creating the tests. So you're basically teaching for this test. And when you look at, you know, the content that we're assessing them on, you start to realize that a lot of it is not even relevant to the jobs that people are having nowadays. Like, not even for like engineering jobs or like, like all this knowledge that we're making kids cram and, and, and it's, it's so irrelevant. And so the problem is that we know, because research shows that kids and adults and anybody that wants to learn something needs to understand the purpose behind what they're learning. 0 (19m 45s): Otherwise it's gonna go in one ear and out the other ear or after the test, you're gonna forget. We also know that knowledge decays really quickly, right? So if you do not put to actual practice in the next 14 days, what you're learning, you're gonna forget. And kids can't put to practice a lot of the things that they are learning in school. So it just becomes a big waste of time. And what you're seeing is a lot of kids, and it's very tragic, graduating from high school without an idea of what they're really good at, what they love doing, what are their strengths, what they wanna spend the next few years doing, what, you know, and even worse than that, we've been watering down things so much and, and, and trying to, we think that we can't expose them to complexity as much. 0 (20m 27s): Or we think that, you know, we need to figure everything out for them. We don't let them struggle. And then we kind of pride them from a lot of the things that they're going to face as adults in the future. And then when they're 18, we sort of like release them into the world and we're like, oh, be independent. But we've never taught them to be independent. 'cause we made, we've made them be codependent for 18 years while they were under our, you know, in on, in the school settings, we asked them to, oh, you, you need to know what to do when failure comes your way. But we never taught them how to do that. Kids didn't wanna fail in school 'cause they know they would get a bad grade and get punished and that would go on their record. So dare them. Like of course they're not gonna take risks or brace failure, but then when they become adults, if you look at all the people that are really successful and happy out there and doing wonderful things for humanity, they fail constantly, but they know how to pick themselves up. 0 (21m 12s): They know how to learn from their mistakes and they know what to do and they keep going. They have that attitude of, oh, this is just another obstacle in the way. I mean, look at Elon, like that's sort of his whole mantra, but yet we're not teaching kids this in school. And so they're like that. There are a bunch of things like, oh, we we're like, oh, we need to challenge the status quo and we need to do this. But yet in school we're teaching kids to adhere to authority and never question anything and not think for themselves and everyone, you know, there's a right way to do things. This is the way you think. If everyone agrees in an idea, then it must be true. And so then, you know, again, we're churning out all these kids into the real world and we expect them or, or they're faced with the reality like the whole world. It's like, it's very different from what we're teaching them in school. And then of course they're, we're setting them up for failure, right? 0 (21m 54s): And so back to your question, like why, why are we still doing this? I think that, and again, I don't have a clear cut answer, but I think that, you know, when you try to standardize a process like learning that, you know, in order to do it at, at a mass level, right? And, and, and try to educate a whole population and do, of course the idea behind it originally was good, right? Like you wanted to to to to to, yeah, to educate a population. The problem is that you can't really do that when it comes to learning, because like you said, we all mature at different rates. We learn differently, we're interested in different things. And, and the interest, the, the interest component and the curiosity component is key in order to learn. 0 (22m 34s): And so when you try to standardize a process like learning and try to make everyone go through the same thing and have this common core standards that we need to adhere to, and the, you know, you have this assessments that we assess everyone the same way. You miss the point of learning. It's kind of like we're so focused on all this like order and structures and this and that, that we miss the most important things, right? And so that's why I, I think that the system doesn't work and there's nothing we can do to make it work. So people ask me, and I have like interviews and reporters like AnaA, like what are the things that five things you would do to fix the system? Like what? And I'm like, I I, I don't have answers. I left because I couldn't, I didn't see a way to fix it. I don't think it's about reforming this old structure. I think we need to, like you said, transform it. 0 (23m 17s): We need to start from zero. I have in, in the background it says like rethinking education from first principles. That's like, you know what my whole book is about? That's what Synthesis is about, which is the school that I'm part of that, you know, Elon was like, we need to rethink education from first principles. What should kids be learning nowadays? Like what's the best way to teach them? It's not giving them content, right? You give them a problem, they're gonna face things, they're gonna need information, they're gonna need tools, they're gonna need resources. That's when you introduce them to that. And so I think that we need something parallel. I don't think The, Traditional, School system's gonna go anywhere because it serves as a babysitting center for a lot of people. Like the reality for most parents is that they have to drop their kids off somewhere, quote unquote safe. 0 (23m 58s): 'cause as we've seen in the past years, that's no longer the case for many schools. But they, they have to drop their kids somewhere so that they can go to work and, and you know, a lot of parents just that they, they, they think that the only option other than school is homeschooling, which is not true. There's a whole range of options in the middle between, you know, homeschooling and traditional school. But anyway, I think that for now, the Alternative education options, we're still growing this space and we still need the physical spaces to drop kids off with facilitators where they can be learning their own thing, but so that parents can actually go to work. So I think that the, the school system's not gonna go anywhere. Also, it's one of those things that has been around for so long and that so many people just blindly trust and they just go through the motions 'cause they think, Hey, I mean I turned out fine. 0 (24m 44s): So it's not the end of the world. It seems very complicated to take this upon myself. Right now I have already all these things in my plate. I'm just gonna send my kids to school and that's it. They'll be fine. Like they're not dying, they're fine. But it's like fine, it's not good enough, right? Like kids are the inventors and the explorers of our future. Like they deserve the best kind of education that they need that, that they could receive. And so I think that what will happen is the Alternative education space will continue to grow and the options will continue to expand. And, and, and we are sort of getting to a point where parents will have the ability to pick and choose from sort of like a menu of options and say, okay, this is what works for my family, for my kids. And by the way, it may look very different from one kid to the other, right? 0 (25m 28s): Because like we said, every kid is different. And so again, we we're not quite there yet. It is doable, but it takes, it requires a lot of effort from the parents' side. So a lot of people are not willing to do that. And so, again, not a clear cut answer, but that's sort of where I, I stand after digging into the, the history of education, the way things are and sort of why we're stuck where we're stuck. 2 (25m 49s): Yeah, it, I agree with you. I don't, I don't really see it going anywhere. I think that a lot of people, what I notice with young people in general, and then also young parents, it's, we, we've lost faith within ourself. We have so much self-doubt that we can't do better than someone else. So we put the responsibility elsewhere because for some reason we think it's, it's gonna lead to more success. And if we handle the issue ourself, so you can, you know, maybe even stem that back to how we were raised in our school and the parenting styles that were very popular back in the nineties. But my husband and I, I love that you said it's not good enough and that shouldn't be okay, right? Like, the school system's not good enough and we shouldn't be settling 'cause they do deserve better than just like, it's okay, it's good enough. 2 (26m 34s): My, we were, we were trying to figure out school and still trying to figure out school for our oldest, he's three and a half. So we have some time, but we looked locally, there's no perfect option. And then we're like, well, everyone kept saying, well nothing's gonna be perfect. And for me that's so frustrating. 'cause I'm like, sure it's not gonna be perfect on paper, but it can be perfect for him and what he needs for it to like, to thrive. And it'll be like one school's too politically involved and one school's maybe too religious for me. And one school has zero technology, which I'd love to get into, especially with Synthesis because now there's almost this opposing energy, which is all screens are bad. All technology, all technology is bad. 2 (27m 16s): We are training the kids from a very early age to think that it's, it's rotting their brain and they need to just be playing with wooden toys. And I don't think that's the answer either. And I would imagine that's probably the camp that you fall in. Yep. So do you get, do you get a lot of pushback with the synthesis model because it's like a gamified learning and you obviously are embracing technology instead of pushing it away? 0 (27m 40s): Yeah, so, so the first thing I wanna say is like you, I I, I think you're totally right. I mean I, I, I agree with what you said. I don't think that there's one perfect approach when people ask me like, oh, like what's that? You know, what do you stand for? Like what is that? Is it, is it innovation? Is it Montessori? Is it Elia? Is it democratic schools? Is it like, what is it? I'm like, well, it's a little bit of everything, right? And it depends. I I don't think that there's this one perfect thing. I think that you can find what works really well for your child and, and that can change. You know, you, you need to keep assessing and keep evaluating and keep reflecting. 'cause in a few years it may not be the best environment for that kid. And you may have to switch. The beauty of this whole thing is that I don't think that, you know, a lot of parents are scared. 0 (28m 20s): They understand that The, Traditional, School system's not working. And they are, they, they agree with a lot of the things that, that we're talking about, but they're like, I don't wanna risk it. And that's fair. You know, I-I-I-I-I don't judge that fear because you're like, well, you know, what if I, what if I mess it up? Well, they're not. I mean, if, and again, let me make a small parenthesis, because the school system, The, Traditional School system does work for a number of kids, right? But it's like a very small number of kids. Like, like I, I often talk about like my husband, he was perfect for The, Traditional, School system. He fit in perfectly. That's his learning style. Like, that's, that's how he, that that's how he thrives. And so if that's your case, then wonderful. If your kid is happy and they're thriving and they come back from school and they're like, mom, I learned about this and I learned about that, and you see that spark in their eyes and they don't lose that, then don't mess with that. 0 (29m 7s): Like, they're happy they're learning, right? But if that's not the case, which happens to be for most of the kids, right? Then you have to find alternatives. And so going back to what I was saying, I don't think that there's a perfect approach. I, I've embraced a lot of innovation and technology because I think that that's sort of where we're heading. And, and it's tied to this whole idea of screens. And like you said, a lot of people have put like the big X, but here's the thing. Screens are here to stay. And actually they're only going to become a bigger part of our lives. And there's nothing we can do to stop that, right? Like, like that's just where we're heading. So given that that's the reality, then we have to embrace screens and we need to figure out what's the best way to guide our kids. 'cause kids could, kids need a lot of guidance in order to navigate this world, right? 0 (29m 52s): And we need to be their allies. We cannot make screens the enemy or technology the enemy because then remember that they're gonna end up using it anyway. They're not always gonna be under your guard. And if you don't teach them about how to properly use these things and how, how to put the proper limits and how to think about this and how to, how to develop that self-control, which a lot of adults, and I I I, I include myself in the fact sometimes we don't even have, you know, you don't know when to stop scrolling. And these are all things that you need to teach them and you need to model from them. And we ourselves have to learn. But if we don't, if they don't have that, they're gonna figure it out themselves. And I feel like that's a recipe for disaster, right? I feel like they definitely need a lot of guidance. And so making this wealthy enemy or trying to like cover it with your hands is not the right way to approach it because it will eventually come out and they're gonna be using screens. 0 (30m 40s): And so it is our job to help them since they're young. And so, and of course there's ways to do this and there are parameters and there's certain ages. Like, you know, I'm, I'm not exposing my kids to screens yet because he doesn't need to, right? And so the more I can delay them, the better. But then it will get to a point where it's like, alright, it's time to start and, and, and we're gonna do this together and it's gonna be all within a positive attitude, right? So that, so that he can come to me for help and I can help him with this. And so you need to take an interest in this for them, et cetera. And we can talk about that in a bit. But, so when it come, again, I, I, I think that I, there's, there's things that I love from democratic schools. There are things that I love from the Montessori approach. 0 (31m 20s): There are things that I love from, you know, all this innovative approaches, but then there are also things that I don't necessarily agree with. So for example, in the Democratic, you know, schools sometimes I feel like they push it too much on one side where they give all the autonomy and responsibility to the kids 100%. And there's no space for the adult kind of, and I think that that's when you start to go wrong. Like I, and these are not all democratic schools, right? But, but some just take it too much to the extreme. Like Sudbury schools, which I love a lot of the things that they're doing, but then I don't, I think that there is a place for an adult and for a guide and for a mentor, right? I don't think that a, you know, a four year old knows what they wanna do in live or, you know, so, so things like that. Or for example in, you know, with innovation and with technology and all this, I don't think it should be 100%. 0 (32m 3s): Like some people are like online learning, like it sucks. How did you see what happened in the pandemic? Like kids in front of screens all the time. First of all, that's not real online learning that what happened, During the pandemic is you just grabbed, we were all trying to figure out what was going on. So, so, you know, teachers in schools just grabbed what they were doing in the classroom and they put it online. And so obviously if it wasn't working in the classroom, like a kid's not gonna pay attention online for hours if he wasn't paying attention already in person around other friends and stuff, right? So again, people, I'm not judging 'cause schools and teachers were trying the best they could given the circumstances. But that's not real online learning, real online learning is when you design something from the ground up with a digital audience in mind, you would never design something that requires kids to sit down for eight hours in front of a screen. 0 (32m 48s): Like that defeats the purpose. That's not online learning. The whole point of online learning is to be able to condense all the learning into maybe an hour a day so that kids can have the rest of the day to engage in the real world and go play with their friends and do sports and, you know, engage in project-based learning and do whatever it is that kids wanna do. This day's free play, get bored, whatever. And so that's what I'm really optimistic about. That's why I think technology is so powerful and that's why I am, I'm sort of like rooting on that direction because I feel like it's the way to restore childhood and give kids back all that time that they're spending trapped in this environments that, like I said, go against everything we know about kids and how they develop. And so that's why I'm so optimistic about technology. 0 (33m 30s): What we're doing at Synthesis is we originally started with this simulations that would teach kids the soft skills that they're not learning in school. So we talked a little bit about like how to figure things out. So we throw them into the simulations that are really complex and really challenging because we understand that unlike schools, kids do crave challenges and they want to be challenged, right? Like, that's why they love video games. If you think about video games, video games, like video game designers never say, oh, let me design a game. That's really easy. Nobody would buy that game. No kid would play that game. They play the games that are, you know, that they have to try so many times until they reach the level and it was hard. And then they accomplish it and the next level's harder. And that's what keeps them going. 0 (34m 10s): That's what motivates them to keep going. It's not that they're addicted to it, it's that that's part of what intrigues them. Because kids love challenges When, they come with the appropriate feedback when they know how to improve when they're not penalized for failing. Like, these are all things that I love about video games because you're kind of reinforcing the things that kids need the most that they're not getting in school. And then we, you know, obviously there are other negative things about it, but I'm focusing on sort of like the things that we can learn from them. And so at Synthesis they have to figure out, we throw them into the simulations where they have to figure out how to play these games, how to collaborate with kids from all over the world, different ages. They need to know when to lead, when to sit back and listen. 0 (34m 50s): Things are super fast. So they're constantly like speed, speed, like super fast. 'cause they have to think on their feet, they need to make decisions, then they need to sort of shoulder the consequences of their decisions. So they're really learning how to think they're wrestling with choices and, and, and the consequences of their choices. They need to make trade-offs. So it's like they have stakes in the game, but the stakes are not so high that if they lose, they get penalized. If they lose, it's like, oh, okay, let's start again. Every three minutes the game starts again. So it's like, it's not a big deal. So kids are learning that failure. It just teaches them what to do next. They learn from their mistakes so they don't repeat them. They are learning how to work in teams and, and I mean like very different from teamwork in school, which, you know, it's very wishy-washy. 0 (35m 31s): The teachers pick the teams. There's one person that sort of like takes the lead and everyone else kind of sits down and relaxes. And it's a way to kind of like waste time. And so, no, I mean like really how to work in teams because if we know something about the world that the kids were inherited is that regardless what they end up doing, even if you go solo and, and, and you know, you do your own thing, you're gonna have to work with other people. And, and especially, you know, the companies that are like doing the most innovative things and really pushing civilization forward, they, they're doing so because they are aligned on a shared mission and they have people that know how to work together in order to achieve this mission. So I think that teaching kids that, and they need plenty of practice with diverse groups of people from a young age is very promising for whatever they wanna do in the real world. 0 (36m 15s): So that it teaches them the communication skills that they need in order to thrive in this world that we're, that's constantly changing. And so that's one product that we have that we're constantly trying to improve and make better. And kids love it because it's very engaging, right? They're very in control of their learning, right? There's no adult telling them or managing their choices. No. And again, they have real stakes in the game and so they love making all those decisions. Then the second product that we launched is to cover the hardcore academics. 'cause we know that of course we need to expose kids to, you know, all the different sciences and engineering and technology and, you know, math and reading. But how do we do this in a way that is effective, right? 0 (36m 55s): I don't think the way we do it in school is effective. How do we do this in a way that, you know, kids can catch up and, and go at their own pace. We know that the best way to teach and learn is through one-on-one tutoring. Of course this is not possible to do it in real life 'cause we cannot get a one-on-one tutor for everyone around the world. But that's the holy grail of education technology, right? Like how can we leverage technology so that everyone can have their one-on-one tutor? Well, that's what we're trying to do with the new project product that we launched. It's called the Synthesis Tutor. And what it does is we've, we started with math and we found this phenomenal teacher, Dr. Tanton, James Tanton, who has a PhD from Princeton Mathematics. 0 (37m 35s): He is written, he's written 26 different books in math. He's one of the ambassadors of mathematics association in America. So he's very knowledgeable in math, but more than that, he loves to teach and he understands the art of teaching. 'cause it's two different things. You can be a content expert, but if you don't know how to deliver that content or how to get the content out of the kids and how to sort of like navigate them in the right direction through questions so that they can get to their own answers and how to give the right kind of feedback that instead of scaring them from, from, from looking at what they got wrong, encourages them to kind of look at it and learn from that. Like the stories that make it relatable. All these components are super important for you to be an effective teacher. And so we found him and we've recorded him for so many hours. 0 (38m 19s): I think it's like over 200 hours to the point where we've captured his essence, but in an AI tutor. So it's pretty incredible. You really feel like you're talking and learning from a human, like the kids call him Dr. Tanton or depending on the voices that they choose. Like, and it's a, it, it teaches in a very effective way. It condenses the whole time that's spent in school, that's downtime, like in, in a few hours a day so that the kids get out of the academics pretty quickly. But what's incredible is that, you know, when I was a teacher, it was very frustrating that I could not sit with, you know, Candace until you learned, you know, 'cause you, you would come to me with sometimes things that you did not learn in second grade or first grade and you had all these gaps in your knowledge. 0 (38m 59s): But I couldn't possibly sit with you and every single student until they grasped everything right? I had to move on. I had curriculums to cover. I had 30 students. I couldn't stop the class 'cause other students were going faster. So it was super frustrated 'cause I knew that a lot of my students were not getting the content because they had previous things that they had not learned. But now with something like this, with a digital tutor, it's infinitely patient. It can stay with you until you, you've grasped, you know, those things that, that that, that you didn't know before. And if you get it, then it just moves on to the next thing. And it does it in a way throwing you stories and throwing you examples and things that are relatable to you and it throws you jokes. So it's really remarkable what we're building because it's that human element that's essential for the teaching and learning like kids need to feel and adults that there's a caring person on the other side that wants you to learn. 0 (39m 49s): And so I feel like we're really, and again, we're in the early stages, like the product still has a long way to go, but it's still so good already. Like I'm surprised at how good it is at this early stages and, and how effective it is. So again, I'm feeling very optimistic. I'm very excited. 'cause when I met Dr. Tanton, I was like, this is the math teacher that I would want for my son. And now not only my son, but kids all over the world can have access to this. So I'm very optimistic. The only issue, well not the only issue, but one of the biggest issues we have right now is that it takes a lot of time to add content to the, to the tutor. And so a lot of kids are just flying by it super quickly. And so our, we're aiming to have to cover every stem subject first and add all the lessons that we need to add and all that. 0 (40m 31s): It's gonna take time. And so, but people who are using the product love it and, and we're just asking them to be patient so that we can continue adding content. But yeah, I'm just very excited and I'm sure we're gonna find a lot of obstacles in the way, but I feel like we are going in the right direction. We have the right mindset. Like, you know, if it doesn't work, we'll pivot. If something else comes up, then we'll, we'll adapt. We'll, which you don't see that attitude in The, Traditional, School system. So that's why I decided to join this startup. And that's why I love it because we're constantly exploring and, and we're focusing on the things that we know are true about kids and how they learn, 2 (41m 4s): Learn. No, I think it's beautiful. When Synthesis first launched, my husband was so excited, he was like running through the house showing me and he's like, I can't wait. They're gonna be, once they're old enough we're gonna sign them up. Yes. And this is like such an incredible supplementation for whatever we decide to do. And it's pretty incredible because I've seen some of the videos and it, even though obviously digital's not the same as being in person, it's still like you see them working together and you see their faces light up and you see like how proud they have they are of themselves and the team when they succeed through something. So they are building friendships. And I, I do honestly think that that's gonna be pretty normal in the future. 2 (41m 46s): That there will probably be a lot of digital relationships that aren't necessarily ever met in person. Right? It's just who, who knows. But we kind of already see that now. And then with ai it's like Mark Andreessen is a really big proponent of that. We are and a half, we already, we already have a very intimate relationship with our device. We just don't really recognize it as such, right? How many of us, like my phone's right here, phone or social media, all of that. So it's gonna be the, the next evolution of that. So I think it's a beautiful way for people that maybe are trying to piecemeal some kind of custom education for their kid, whether it's like homeschool or a pod, to still incorporate other kids from around the world that they can work together on things and, and still build relationships. 2 (42m 32s): So for me, that was one of the most, that's one of the biggest hurdles that I'm trying to, or maybe even fears that I'm trying to overcome, is if we did something like a pod or if we did something like, like homeschooling, making sure that he has opportunities to develop relationships outside because that's really important too, for them to be able to exist on their own. 0 (42m 51s): Of course. I think a lot about that as well, because I'm obviously planning on like doing some Alternative things with my, my child that I wanna send him to traditional school. Unless he turns out like his dad and he's begging me to go to school, I'm gonna be like, by all means, if you wanna try it out, go. But I, I think about that a lot. I, and what I've come to the conclusion is that it's super, IM what matters the most really is where you decide to live. And so I, I love bouncing around and my husband's pretty open to that as well. And so we were always like, yeah, we love moving around and this and that and we can do that a lot. Now that he's younger, like you said, I don't plan on doing any kind of like structured formal schooling until he's like seven or eight and then, you know, we'll see where we take it from there. 0 (43m 32s): However, I do think that the, the environment that we end up when he's around that age, and especially in his teenager years is super important. Who he's surrounding himself with, et cetera, et cetera. So even more important than school, because what I've realized with socializing in school is that it's very fabricated. And, and again, it's, it's changed a lot since, you know, I were in school like now things are, there's a quote in my book that says that, you know, kids nowadays in school have twice as many restrictions as incarcerated felons. Which is insane. Whoa. Insane. It's insane. And so the amount of times that they, that they get to actually socialize without getting in trouble is very small. And recess has been cut back. Like most schools have like 15 minutes of recess, which is not nearly enough. 0 (44m 15s): You know, by the time you get to recess it's like already time to come back. And so I, I feel like also, you know, you're putting kids in an environment like you're, you're segregating them by age and putting them, you know, when in the real world do you only interact with people your age? Nowhere, like all I can only think of in school. And so we're teaching them that that's the way that you socialize. But in the real world, that's not how you socialize. You socialize with people that are older than you, that are wiser than you or people that are younger than you. People in the community, people from all different, you know. And, and I feel like when you put your kids in this classroom, sometimes they don't relate to anybody in that classroom. 'cause it just turns, yeah, there are 30 kids, but, but maybe they don't connect with any of those 30 kids and they actually would connect very well with the older ones or the younger ones or the ones in their neighborhood. 0 (44m 57s): And so what I like about technology is that I think that it allows for this kind of things to happen. You know, like if, if you know, we live in different places, but we're, we're able to have this wonderful conversation right now where I'm learning from you, you're learning from me and, and people listening to this hopefully are learning too. But this wouldn't be possible if it weren't for the internet. And what I've learned is that in the past, since I left the school system, my world kind of expanded. And the the amount of amazing people that have enriched my life in this past four years, they all come from the internet. And I've been able to actually now meet them in the real world. Many of them, they've become some of my best friends now, them, you know? And, and it's incredible. 'cause I, I don't know, and I don't think I would've met any of these people. The people that I'm working with, the people that I'm friends with now, like most of them come that I found online and then, you know, 'cause it's easier to find people that you can connect with. 0 (45m 45s): And I think that kids really understand this and that's why some of them love to spend time online because they're like, I, I am relating to people that are more similar to me, right? And that have similar interests that I, you know, maybe this kid is, one is in Panama and the other one's in India, but, but they happen to click. You can't really do that if you're stuck with only the people you know, and also it exposes you to different cultures and, you know, you're not just stuck with the people of your same demographic. And so I think there's a true beauty to that. And I think that I, I don't think that that, that we should go all online or that it should all be No, absolutely not. I think that done right, it, what it does is it opens up the possibility for kids to spend more time in person with other kids, with other members in the community doing things outdoors, et cetera, because you're able to use technology to effectively cover processes in learning or whatever, in a shorter span, right? 0 (46m 36s): So that's why I'm so excited about it. It's not that I, I I believe that everything should be online. Like absolutely not. I believe in human relations and, and you know, physical contact and all that. So, so yeah. 2 (46m 46s): Yeah. I think using technology, there's, I see a lot of, a lot of benefit and I think it's very easy to focus on like the doom and gloom of all of it. But if you just compare the hours, and I, we touched a little bit on it earlier, which is the idea of giving the kids their childhood back, which is so powerful. I mean, you're in school for eight plus hours a day, especially if you're doing extracurriculars and you're signed up for this club and that club, and then you have homework, which is bullshit. I mean, if you look at the rest of the world, the schools that are doing the best, the kids that are doing the best do not have homeschool. That whole cons, or I'm sorry, homework, it doesn't make any sense to me. But if you could get everything done in such a short amount of time, like really condense it and think the average homeschooling time is like three hours a day. 2 (47m 28s): So three compared to eight, now you have the rest of the day to follow your curiosity, go play in the woods, go play in the dirt, go like, right, experience the real world and actually have your feet touch grass, which to me is so important in that era, in that stage of your life. So it's a tool and it's however you decide to use it, whether it's gonna be used to keep you warm or burn something down, it's all Absolutely. Exactly. And 0 (47m 52s): Yeah, one thing about that that I wanna mention is that some parents are like, oh yeah, and then you can enroll them in this and enroll them in that and enroll them. And, and I just wanna make sure that, that I, that's not what, I mean, you can do that, but I feel like one of the big problems nowadays is that every kids are overscheduled. Like kids schedule. Some of the kids that I, that I used to teach, they were busier than like CEOs of companies. Like they, I was like, when does this kid have a chance to like, take a, a mini break? Like it was just back to back, like you said, like school for eight hours and then or seven hours, and then after school, then the other after school, then maths, then tutoring, then this, then homework, and then like family time, and then go to bed. It's like, when do kids, like, it's so important for the learning process and, and just to develop as like healthy humans to have downtime. 0 (48m 36s): That's when you have creative breakthroughs. And that's where most ideas, that's where you have ideas when you're showering, right? Because you're like, you know, not doing anything. And it's sort of like a moment where your mind is just, and then boop, like things pop up, right? Because you, you're taking a break. And so I think that's so important. And kids barely have time that nowadays, like, like being bored by inactivity is actually a good thing. Some parents are like, no, no, no. If they're bored, we need to, no, it's like, or, or, or they'll start doing, you know, bad things or this and that. And, and I don't mean like, oh, they come back from this three hours of learning and then just let them know you, you need to obviously talk to them and enroll them in a few things and have a little bit of structure of what they're going to be spending their time on sometimes. So, because some kids will just sit down and start playing video games for eight hours, that's not the point. 0 (49m 16s): Like of course you need parent involvement there, but I think that kids need more time to just do what kids used to do in the past, like free play and exploration and just, you know, not adult led activities all the time. So, so that, you know, that's something that I just wanted to throw quickly in there. 2 (49m 34s): No, that's super important. I see the same thing. And it's exhausting to even look at, I'm like, let your kid be a kid. There's plenty of time to perform later for them to enter like the rat race if they decide to do that. But you don't have to do that at 3, 4, 5. That makes no sense to me. With a lot of parents deciding to take Alternative Paths. And we do have some schools, even some like more traditional schools that are getting rid of grades and they're doing more of just like a competency test, test of sorts, assessment. What does that mean for higher education? Like what does that mean for college? Does college shift, does that become more trade-based or like, does it shift to more of like a lifelong subscription, kind of like if you were to join a masterclass or like where do you see college ending up? 2 (50m 23s): Yeah, 0 (50m 23s): So, so this is a very interesting question. So, well, first what I realized when I was doing, when I, when I left the school system, I started doing research. It turns out that, because I was like, well, homeschoolers sometimes don't take a lot of this tests that we're taking in school. So how come, you know, there are a bunch of homeschoolers that end up in all this Ivy Leagues and this's that. And it turns out that, you know, every college and, and especially Ivy Leagues, they have a whole chunk of Admissions that are just for homeschoolers. And so the way that homeschooling works, well most of the time is that they submit a, a portfolio to their local board of the local school board with different things. Sometimes they have tests or business plans, songs, essays, like just, it's kind of like a variety of things, which I think is such a great way to assess a child, right? 0 (51m 7s): 'cause you're giving them the opportunity to showcase what they know in different ways other than a test. And so colleges are already ready for that in terms of, and, and we think a lot about this at Synthesis. 'cause of course we want to have some way to track what, you know, the skillset the kids are learning and how much, and you know, how they're progressing and, and for them to be able to see, you know, where was I a month ago and, and how have I evolved? Like that's super important to that reflection component and to see how you're advancing and in a way that is there for them in a portal or something that can stay with them for the rest of their lives. that they can sort of like have with them to show for whatever it is that they're gonna be doing. And it's hard, it's really hard to do because we don't wanna fall into the trap of what schools have been doing, like measurement and assessment and this and that. 0 (51m 53s): And, and it's taking us time because we wanna make sure we do it the right way. So I think that there are schools and, and, and different, like you said, like doing things a little bit differently and assessing kids a little bit differently and, and colleges are being open to it. I think that there's still a lot of push for, you know, the SATs and like certain baseline tests, which I think that, you know, you, you can have those but, but lower the stakes and not make them as important as they are right now. It's sort of like the thing that gets you into college. Of course there are other little things, but it's super important. And I think that it shouldn't have that much importance. I think we should maybe have it, 'cause it does measure sort of like a baseline of where you are in certain subjects. But I think there, there should be way more things when it comes to actual college. 0 (52m 34s): I think we're going to see a big shift in the next few, especially when our kids are college age. I think that a lot of colleges are actually gonna end up going away. I think that maybe the, you know, the ones that have been around for many, many years and the Ivy Leagues and the Harvards, et cetera. Not those, I think that that, but I think that, that a lot of them are, because what people are starting to realize, especially with Covid and everything, is that you can cont to do your continuous learning after high school or even dropping out of high school by enrolling in things that are more skill-based. And, and or taking a gap year and actually starting to work right away and then realizing, oh, I wanna get better at this and that. 0 (53m 14s): And then like, I remember I decided to do that and then I never ended up doing my master's. 'cause I was like, I don't, I I, I don't, I don't need to do my master's. Like I don't see, at first I was like, I have to, I have to. But it, it was like sort of this mentality that I have because my parents would tell me and society and this and that, but when I realized, I was like, wait, all that money and all that time can be spent writing my book or doing all this, like doing things that actually mattered. Like I don't need the, like I don't need to do my master's. And so that was a decision that I made. And I think that a lot of people are starting to realize the same with college. Like college, so many parents that I talk to are like, well, but I need to send my kid to traditional school and they need to take all this tests because otherwise, you know, it's all for college. And I'm like, college is not the answer because college is not, it's not an answer. 0 (53m 57s): It's a place that may or may not come with more opportunity, but it may also come with a huge debt. We've seen all these people and, and if you think about degrees, they're not worth what they were worth before. So a lot of people are graduating and they're just following the common course of action, right? Which is you go to college, they go into this horrible debt and then they have this degrees that mean nothing and they end up working on things that, you know, have nothing to do with their degrees and getting paid like shitty jobs and, and just, you know, with this massive debt that hunts them for the rest of their lives. Like that cannot be the goal. Like that can, that's messed up. And so I think that, you know, a lot of people are starting to notice that a lot of people are starting to notice that they can make it on their own by doing things differently. 0 (54m 39s): And you are starting to see emerge different Paths that are starting to become more acceptable. They've been there for a while, but now they're starting to become more acceptable, especially after covid. And so I think that, you know, for for, for my kids for example, I I would very much encourage a gap year. 'cause I think that how is it that we pride kids from engaging in the productive world for 18 years and then we're like, again, he voila, open the doors and, and they don't know what to do. Like I feel like they, they they they have to, and I don't mean like child labor and having no, I I just mean like if they, yeah, getting them involved since they're younger, doing something in the actual productive world and then they can start to have a sense of what they like, what they enjoy doing. 0 (55m 21s): How many adults do you know that have gone to college and end up in jobs and they're like 30 something and suddenly they realize, wow, I hate my life, I hate my job. I don't know how I ended up here. Like what, like how did I go through all this motions and this and that and all this years studying and now I hate what I do. I didn't know any better. You know, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. I hate this. What if we exposed kids in a way, you know, from a younger age to what it's like to work in this kind of environment so that they can determine if this is what they want to spend their time on before they decide to devote four years of their lives, or I don't know, doctors, you know, 10 years, whatever. I think that that's way more productive. So I think that we're going to start to see a, a shift there. 0 (56m 3s): We're gonna have more alternatives. Less people are probably gonna go. And again, I'm not against college. I went to college and it worked for me. And, and I'm not gonna, you know, steer my kid away from college. I'm just gonna be like, Hey, there are many options. Like, is this what you wanna do? Is this what you want? Then, then sure, but, and we'll see what are the options, you know, 18 years from now. So Yeah, that's sort of, you know, where my thoughts are around college. 2 (56m 29s): Yeah, that's refreshing to hear. I think it's, it's still really surprising to me when you see parents that are still really bought into the very old school promise that we were given, which is you go to school for four years, you're going to get a job, you're going to pay off the debt, you're going to love what you do, and you're going to retire at 65 with that same job. None of that applies anymore. No. Like you are not promised a job. So many people cannot pay off their debt. They can't get a job in that field or they hate their job and they feel it's like a sunken cost fall fallacy because now they've spent a hundred thousand dollars on a degree. How do you then justify going back to school to do something else? 2 (57m 9s): 'cause you're like, well, what if I end up hating doing that too? So there has to be a third route. Like at least you know, another option that we're not looking at. 'cause this other one's not working for so many people. 0 (57m 20s): And you know what, this reminds me to something that I talk a lot about in my book, which is this idea around quitting. If you look at the data, it shows that people have around a dozen different jobs in their lifetime. And yet this idea of quitting is very much stigmatized and looked as a negative thing when we're growing up. What do we teach kids? We teach kids the importance of perseverance and, and sticking to things. And I think that's important. But if you're persevering in the wrong direction, you are better off quitting. And we don't teach kids that. And so I think it's equally important to teach them that it's okay to let go of the things that don't fit them well or that they don't enjoy doing. And they can do it often until they find what they like. And we can teach them how to do it. You know, we teach them don't quit because it's hard. 0 (58m 1s): Or you know, like, you know, I I first sort of changed my mind around this when I heard this HBS professor, deep Pat Mara, who's now a friend of mine that said, quit early, quit often not because it's hard, but because it's sucks. And I'm like, yes, that's what we need to teach kids. Maybe not with that language, but we need to tell them that, you know, if don't, don't quit because something's hard, but quit if it's not a right fit. Why? Because you may be saying no to other things that are a better fit. And so I feel like a lot of people, a lot of adults are scared to let go of something that's not working because of the fear of, you know, I'm not a quitter, quitters are losers. And, and again, it's one of those messages that has been reinforced over and over and over again by parents, by teachers, by schools, that it's not true. 0 (58m 42s): And that I think we would be better off on learning. And so there are ways to do this and I share a bunch of strategies in, in, in, in my book of how to teach kids to quit once the right way. Like when to persevere and when to quit. There's like a thin, a thin line there, but I feel like a lot of, a lot more people would be happier. Like I know a lot of my friends would be happier if they just let go of the things that they're doing now, but they're very scared. They're like, I, I, I don't know, you know, I'm scared of what would happen. And it's like, well, you get to start again. And, and that's the other thing, like, you know, I talk often about like how we should not ask kids when they're little. Like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? You know? And they're like, oh, the fireman and their, because what we're teaching them is that, you know, as a growing up, we're finite, you know, as if you choose this one thing and you have to stick to that and that sort of defines who you are. 0 (59m 27s): And it's like, no, you get to be and do many things. So instead of talking about what you want to be, you know, be, it's like what do you wanna do? What do you love doing? You get to try this and this and this and this also, like we said, two thirds of the kids going through grade school right now will end up doing jobs that haven't been invented. And so instead of saying like, these are the alternatives, what if they wanted, you know, who would know, who would've said that you could have been a YouTuber, right? Like that wasn't a job when I was younger. And so if you sort of teach them like, you know, your future self hasn't been invented yet, you know what you want to end up, one of the things that you wanna end up doing hasn't been invented. And so that mentality is like, okay, you help them discover the things that they like and focus on what they're good at. And you focus on trying different things and exploring. 0 (1h 0m 10s): And you can quit the ones that you don't like, but you don't have to stick to this one thing. And it's not your identity. It's not who you are. You get a second chance, you know, you. And if you try something and you don't like it, you get to quit and try something else until you, until you find what you like. I really believe in this idea of reinventing yourself and, and, and everyone has the power of unlearning things and I don't feel like, you know, like things are the end. If you try something, it doesn't work. You can start again. You can start over. I'm a big believer of that. 2 (1h 0m 36s): Oh, I love that so much. I guess as we wrap up, what is, what's the biggest thing that you've unlearned? 0 (1h 0m 46s): Well, the idea of fitting in, you know, we talked, we started the conversation with my story and, and, and I shared that what I felt like I had to do in order for people to like me and in order to thrive and make, you know, was I had to fit in. I had to be like everybody else. I had to talk. Like I would, you know, people were like, wait, that's not your accent. How come you, you picked up on this accent and this accent and now like, people don't know where I'm from because I try to, you know, emulate everything. And so that was sort of like my, my way of trying to survive and try to cope. But then I realized that I'm, I'm way better off, like standing out from the crowd and that the real world, regardless of what, you know, school teaches you to fit in, but the real world rewards people who stand out from the crowd and who break from the pack and who are not scared to think differently. 0 (1h 1m 37s): Like those are the people that find those creative breakthroughs and, and those ideas that are really revolutionary and that, you know, those that go against the grind, the rebels in school, like those are the people that I now admire the most. And so, and I think that that's why I was so inclined to the rebels in my cate in my classroom or like the troublemakers because they were so passionate about what they were doing that was different from what they were supposed to be doing. And I commend that. I think we should be more like that. And so the biggest lesson I've unlearned is trying to fit in. I realize that I'm way better off and I get to do what I love and, and, and, and, you know, be good at it because I'm doing something different and I'm sort of following my gut. So I guess that, 2 (1h 2m 19s): No, that's incredible. This was amazing. I actually just ordered your book before you hopped on, so I cannot wait to read it. I'm like, I feel like it's going to answer so many of these lingering questions that I've had around education and just, or 0 (1h 2m 31s): Give you more questions 2 (1h 2m 32s): Or maybe gimme more questions, but it'll start to steer me in the direction that I'm supposed to be. And before we take off, can you tell the listeners where they can follow you, how they can support you? I'm assuming your book is probably available everywhere. I just got it off Amazon two seconds ago, so yeah. 0 (1h 2m 47s): Yeah. So, so yeah, my book is out. There's a collection of my work for the past years has a lot of questions that will hopefully make you reflect and rethink education for yourself. And it's available anywhere online and also in bookstores near you. I'm very active on Twitter. My handles AnaA, Fabrega Levin, I'm also on Instagram, miss Fab Learning Lab. That's what my students used to call me. I'm also on YouTube and, and yeah, find me on Spotify. I do a lot of podcasts. I don't have my own, but I go on a lot of podcasts, so, so yeah. And this has been so wonderful, Candace, your questions were great. We're on the same page. 2 (1h 3m 21s): Thank you so much. And I will make sure I link all of those resources below for everyone. AnaA, thank you so much. This was amazing. Thank 0 (1h 3m 28s): You Candace. And 2 (1h 3m 29s): That's it for this week's episode of Chatting with Candace. Before you go, if you could leave a five star review, if you haven't done one in a while or you haven't done one at all, it takes a minute. You click the little five stars and that helps me out. And if you're feeling like you have some extra time and some extra love to give, type something nice and maybe I'll retweet it and read it on air for the next one. And I think that's all. Oh, check out the Links below, support our guests, support the affiliates and sponsors, and I'll see you next week. Bye everybody.