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Kelsi Sheren has solidified herself as a prominent Keynote Speaker, delivering inspiring talks at venues like Harvard, TEDx, and several others. Her powerful speeches resonate with audiences, offering a unique perspective on her journey and dedication to supporting others.
Join Candice Horbacz and Kelsie Sheren as they delve into the nuances of Canada's MAiD culture, unpacking its shocking societal impact and the stories within. Explore the depths of men's mental health, confronting the staggering suicide rates and the pressing need for awareness and support. Through Candice's introspective psychedelic journey, gain insights into the transformative power of self-discovery and personal growth. With each episode, Candice invites you to engage in thought-provoking discussions that challenge perspectives and inspire positive change. Tune in to this podcast for an enriching experience that transcends the ordinary and ignites meaningful dialogue.
Kelsie’s Webiste: www.kelsisheren.com
Find out more about Kelsie’s work here: https://linktr.ee/kelsi_sheren
Follow Candice Horbacz on socials: https://linktr.ee/candicehorbacz
0 (0s): Men are going through something right now and we are not acknowledging it. It's 1 (5s): All these dads. Yeah. With their kids and they look so happy. Yeah. And it was like the very last video that they, that the wife had taken and you would never know. 0 (15s): Majority of my friends, they're widows not from war, from suicide. There's gonna be lawsuits like you've never seen. 1 (27s): Well, Kelsi, welcome to the Chatting with Candace podcast. I'm so excited to finally have you here and I know we were going back and forth, but I'm so glad that we decided to do in person, especially after dinner last night and just catching up with you. So thanks for, thanks for coming to the Land of the Free Yeah, I 0 (41s): Know. I, I'm always wanting to come to the land of the free, any excuse I get to be here and feel just calm in a different place where people aren't watching me every couple seconds and people aren't being crazy and wearing masks and yelling at me. It's a really welcome state. So thanks for having me. Oh yeah, 1 (58s): Anytime. So I have been watching a ton of your content and I have all of these notes and I'm don't even know where to begin. I guess the whole reason that you kind of came on my radar is I saw you on Drinking Bros and then I watched your trigger geometry episode and it was the very end of Trigger Geometry when you start bringing up Made and I'm like, this is the whole thing I wanna get get into. And then I realized there's so much more overlap that we have and we kind of figured that out even more at dinner. But I guess like jumping into MAID because that's kind of where you left off Yeah. On the last podcast. I guess what is that for listeners that aren't aware and what got you involved in being outspoken about it? 0 (1m 36s): Yeah, absolutely. So thanks for asking that. A lot of people are, are starting to catch on, but there, there's not quite enough yet in my personal opinion, enough where we've been able to stay the bill, meaning we've been able to stop it in its tracks and we have an opportunity to completely eradicate it from the legislation in Canada. So for people who don't know or haven't listened to that episode or listened to any of the episodes I've done on MAID, MAID is medical assistance and Dying MAID is being used as a euthanasia program in Canada. I compare it very much to eugenics. If you were to look back in World War II and the verbiage that was used with Hitler and his, his cronies and everyone else, the verbiage is very much similar in Canada right now. The problem with MAID is not that we are giving grown humans who have terminally ill cancers, diagnoses, really painful exits out of this world, an opportunity to leave in a compassionate way, but it is being utilized and exploited. 0 (2m 31s): We now have, in 2021 we had 10,500 Canadians used, made it was over 13,500 by 2022. And I don't know the full stats, but we know that it's over 30% and it keeps increasing. The problem with MAID is the Canadian government is not using it as a way to actually help the ill, they're using it as a cost saving alternative and a way to control population. The reason I state that, and that's a really aggressive description and I really believe that wholeheartedly is because we've seen how they are and have attempted to amend the bills to allow for mentally ill addicts, homeless and children that are terminally ill. 0 (3m 17s): Down to the age of 12 with parent consent. Part of the problem in Canada is if a child who's 16 or 17 child, nor I said child who cannot make a decision at that age, walks into a hospital and says I'm suicidal. More often than not, they will offer you MAID before they will hold you to protect yourself from yourself. We've seen it, there's a ton of evidence for it. It's happened in hospitals near me, it's happened in hospitals across the country, but in particular British Columbia where I live is comparable to the rest of the country. BC is got the highest rates. Okay, now you could look at that in a multitude of ways. 0 (3m 59s): Cost of living is the highest in Canada, in British Columbia. Land is un uncontrollably large like it is. You cannot afford to live there if you don't have multiple incomes, you know, a spouse income and if you can afford to live there, you've got a, you know, a crazy job where you're making, you know, six figures plus easily. With the issues that we have on the east side of Vancouver, which is one of the largest, if not the largest opioid epidemic space in the North America, almost the world, we have never seen anything like this. We have open air drug markets. You can go buy heroin and cocaine on the streets. You can buy fentanyl in Canada, health Canada boxes. Okay. So what we did is Canada, you know, we emptied out the psych wards way back at a Riverview. 0 (4m 42s): We took everybody out, we put them all in the streets, the mental health epidemic is outta control. And then we started saying to people out of, and this is the guides of what the Canadian government has stated out of compassion and empathy, we would like to be able to offer these people a choice in their life. Mm. Well there's this really, and I would love for you to do a dive on them 'cause I feel like you would get somewhere, there's this organization called Dying with Dignity. Yeah, okay. Dying with Dignity is evil. 1 (5m 10s): Is that, are they in relationship with MAID or are they separate 0 (5m 13s): Entities? They're pushing it. Okay. They're the ones pushing the bills. They're the ones funding it. They've got over $7 million on average sitting in their bank account. They're funded from somewhere and I'm trying to figure it out right now. Okay. So MAID, the expansion was pushed forward with them. They were, they were lobbying, they were doing everything they could to, and what we've figured out is, and we've got leaked footage of them training doctors stating that here's a case study. Here's Stacey. Stacey has a bunch of debt because Stacey's ill, well Stacey can't afford her to look after herself anymore. So due to her credit card debt, she should be a candidate for MAID. 1 (5m 48s): This is public, 0 (5m 49s): This is public, I'll Google it and send it to you. I had come with receipts if I'm talking about anything like this because it's, it's so much more than people are aware of and that's because of Bill C 11. It's been strategically placed so that Americans in the rest of the world have a hard time seeing our media and we have a hard time seeing your media unless we have VPNs. So the reason I got involved with MAID was I got a phone call a couple years ago from a friend, another veteran, and he was like Kelsi, one of our guys was just offered MAID and I said sorry. And he goes, he lives in another country. He called his case manager looking for support for post traumatic stress disorder and a traumatic brain injury. This is an ex special operator should a hundred percent be given the support he needs. 0 (6m 34s): And in that there's a voice recording of the case manager offering MAID. So he, he wasn't, he wasn't alluding to being suicidal, he wasn't looking for that answer. He was looking for genuine help to heal and they offered a MAID and that sparked a fire because they already use us as numbers. We're already expendable people. That's why when you get hurt, they're so quick to med board you out. You would think with the financial investment they put into you, they would wanna keep you and turn you and get you healthy and then keep you in the service. That's not the case. So what had happened was he said, look, I'm gonna leak this to a few people. We're gonna send it to Rebel. We're gonna send it around and see what happens. 0 (7m 15s): They did that. Then there was an inquiry brought into Ottawa. A couple other people came forward, other veterans, another individual I've had on the show, Christine Goche, she's a Paralympian, she's a Canadian Olympic rower. She is also an Invictus in gold medalist. She was one of the first artillery gunner. She's people who paved the path for me. And due to the way she was told to do her training, she actually sustained a spinal injury because she, they didn't listen to the doctors. So she had not grown through the service with this injury due to service that was unnecessary. And she just needed wheels for a wheelchair and a wheelchair ramp to get in and out of her home. They offered her MAID. 0 (7m 56s): We have all the documents and then what we started to realize is how many people have been offered MAID instead of treatment. After that, we kind of got a couple of us together and said, okay, we're gonna start tackling this. They did the inquiry. It was an absolute disaster. They gave the veterans five minutes each and then afterwards told them to their face that they're lying and that they had no proof. And then when the Veterans Affairs minister went on Mercedes Stevenson, the white, the west block, the, he lied right to her face and said No, it's only been one when we have so much proof to prove otherwise. And they said it was only one case manager, but we found out it was different genders. So a male and a female and they were on other different parts of the country in different offices. 0 (8m 37s): So this means this was being slow rolled out and it always starts with veterans. Anything always starts in the veteran area. Right. How can we exploit them and see what they'll push back on and then we'll roll it to the rest of the world. And that's exactly what happened. The reason it got a lot heavier for me and I got brought into it a little more, was a friend of mutual friend of mine who owns this flooring company BC called King of Flores. He's like, Kelsie, you gotta talk to this woman named Alicia Duncan. And I was like, okay, why? Like, why relax, relax. He got very amped. Her mother was killed with MAiD and I was like, okay. And he goes, we don't think it was lawful. And I was like, whoa. Okay. So the police were involved in this case. 0 (9m 18s): Long and short, Alicia and her daughter, sister, sorry, Alicia and her sister have been fighting and are currently fighting for medical records because her mother was a psych nurse for over 20 years and she had no mental health history at all. She got in a car accident, sustained a massive traumatic brain injury. And in Canada where everyone thinks we have healthcare, it was over 18 months for her to see a specialist. And within a couple months she went from perfectly healthy to pinning her bedsheets, 40 pins, like everything had to be smooth, curating all of her food. She wouldn't leave the house because she thought someone was gonna sniper her. Whoa. And they brought this all forward and behind everyone's back in the family, they went, she went to the hospital and asked for MAID. 0 (9m 58s): But here's where it got really dicey. All of the hospitals she went to are a conflict of interest. She used to run the hospital. So that's what MAID does is they don't inform the family members to stop it. They don't know, they don't tell anyone. They don't ask for support. Hey, is there any other people around you we can talk to? They just take you on your word. What then happened was she was getting to the point where it was coming up and her partner said like, you have to tell the girls. So she told the girls and they got a court injunction and they got her held and they said, we are in control now because you are not of sound of mind. And that's the whole thing made is right is there's two tracks and one has to be foreseeable death and one has to be unforeseeable. 0 (10m 42s): But something that is so damaging and life suffering. Yeah, great. They, they consider, yeah, they have verbiage for it. But that being said, they are exploiting these two tracks. 'cause one track can be done in a really short period of time and the last track can be done up with up to 90 days. So long and short they got the court injection. The mother was so upset, she slit her wrists, okay. They found her on the floor, they brought her to the hospital, they held her two days later they enacted MAID on her. By definition, under your own rules, you have to be sound of mind to make this decision. It's very clear that you were not. And so there's a lot more to that story. And we talked about it. I had Alicia on the show. We talked really in depth about her mother's case and what's going on there. 0 (11m 26s): And she is one of the most beautiful examples of what happens when you mess around with the wrong family. And because of her and so many of the other people in Canada, the new rollout was supposed to happen on March 17th and that got stalked dead in its tracks. And that was all being funded and pushed forward by dying with dignity because they said, you know, if you're a rape victim you shouldn't have to live through that. So you should enact made prisoners in Abbotsford Prison who were on life were choosing to use MAID and the government was paying for it. So there is so much more that's coming out. I'm in a rebel documentary that's coming out. I think it's gonna be out this month. Alicia and I are in another documentary with the UK with Liz Carr about this as well. 0 (12m 6s): And the dangers of it, and really it is eugenics wrapped around this compassionate, empathetic bow of we should help everyone. No one should be in any pain or suffering. We need better palliative care, we need preventative medicine and we need to not let people get to this point where they think that they are better off dead than living on this earth. And it's tragic. So that's my whole involvement is you mess around with my people and I have a voice, I'm gonna use it. 1 (12m 32s): Yeah. It seems to find the difference between what is considered suicide and then made there's, it's very gray because initially I, when I first heard about this and like those pods that were getting popular I think in Switzerland or Sweden, the death pods. Yeah. For someone who's terminally ill, I think of course, right? Like I, I just had to put my dog down. Like that is the compassionate thing to do. And if we say that an animal suffering is not okay, I think a person suffering from a terminal illness should also have that option because otherwise you're leaving them to do it themselves. And that's terrifying and dangerous. And so if you can make it like safe and painless and so that they can have dignity at the end, that makes sense. 1 (13m 17s): But then you get into this, to this slippery slope. And I usually hate those arguments because people kind of use them to start from one point to get to something that's more ideological. And they're like, well of course this is gonna be the natural progression. And you would say, well no, you know, of course this exists in other countries. We do again, do it with animals. Like this just seems like a, a medical like necessity. And then you do see that they're trying to get it for 12 year olds. So that has been pushed to 2027. Correct. 0 (13m 45s): Yeah. So they're, they're essentially stating that the next election is where we're gonna see an opportunity. If the conservatives get in and p gets in that bill is gonna be cut. And, and here's the thing that happens, and I'm sure you guys have seen this in America. I know you have. They will sandwich bills into other bills and that's what they did with this. So 1 (14m 4s): It's called like hog something, I don't know what it's called. There's a, my father-in-Law, he's super into politics. It's like this is just the way of politics and you it, I wish, I wish I could Google it 'cause I don't even know how I would begin to google that phrase. But yeah, it's very normal for like, I'm gonna get this, I'll give you this and then by the end of it this you have a thousand page bill where everyone needs to get a piece, 0 (14m 24s): Right? And what had happened was Canada was reinforcing their abortion bill and they slipped it in. So this is how it got extended. They had the sunset clause and that is the thing that was terrifying was it was originally supposed to be in 2023 and then they pushed it to 20. And that's when I went and I did Pierce and we were talking about it and he was like, what's going on? And then it got pushed to 2024 and then we started getting as loud as we possibly could in talking to anyone that would, would listen and just tagging every major person. And I always wondered, I I thought to myself, why isn't Jordan talking about this? Because our media is so heavily censored by Bill C 11, he's one of the only ones that's got that escape velocity in Canada. 0 (15m 6s): And I thought to myself, I'm like, why I, I really wish somebody much bigger than me because I can only yell as hard as I can yell. But I wish somebody much bigger than me would, would grab the reins of this and maybe break it down and go, okay, we need to be discussing this. 'cause the majority of Canadians have no idea. And that's the wild thing. So Alicia and I are actually planning to go out on the streets and we're gonna interview some people and just ask them what's made. Because most individuals have zero clue, meaning because they have no clue. Their children have no clue. But what has happened is when they included younger individuals, we understand a lot of times those can be that group think that social ideology that can get captured within that age. 0 (15m 46s): And what we've seen with so many other movements is they're gonna exploit it. And the dangers and the fears are groups of younger humans convincing each other. It's a better idea to die. Almost like a suicide pact, if you will, that's funded by our taxpayer dollars. And then you have companies like Simon's department store, have you heard this story? Oh, you're gonna love this. So they've taken it down since obviously, but think of like the Bay, it's a similar, it's a Canadian department store. They carry everything. They're from Quebec, which tracks and they decided to use MAID as one of their commercials. So they had a female who was going to be ending her life and they decided to put her on a beach with all of their home goods, with bubbles all around talking about how she was so excited to go end her life while she was surrounded by these waves and these cliffs and these beautiful home goods. 0 (16m 41s): Selling the home goods under the eyes of made is an acceptable, beautiful, welcomed thing. And I can't wait what younger impressionable people are gonna be seeing that. And it's the subliminal messaging, it's the, it's the couple touchpoint. And so that was disgusting to me. How can a department store use assisted suicide as a way to make an ad that's gonna be seen by very impressionable people across, across the country? 1 (17m 9s): Canada can't advertise pharmaceuticals. Correct? We 0 (17m 12s): Can't, but because a lot of people's TV overlaps with American tv, we see them anyway. Oh, so 1 (17m 18s): You'll get our advertisements. Yeah. 0 (17m 19s): So I don't have tv I we have Netflix. We have Netflix or we have Amazon. So I don't see any commercials anymore. But when we come to America and I turn a TV on, it's, it's jarring. 1 (17m 30s): Yeah, it's weird because I believe it's the US and New Zealand and we're the only two in the world that are allowed to have pharmaceutical ads. And that seems, I mean, do you know who Joe Dispenza is? Yes. So he gets into kind of like the quantum physics and also like the subconscious psychology behind these ads and how really dark and insidious it is. And it, it's down from, you know, you wanna be able to kind of put yourself in a situation and that's when you become extremely malleable and like easily influenced. So they get you with the dark music, they make you feel very visceral. Then they'll show a really violent, gnarly disease and it just gets you on every basic human instinct. 1 (18m 16s): And then all, all of a sudden you're calling your doctor and then you have this illness and you maybe you start being a hypochondriac, whatever you end up buying the thing that they're trying to sell. So if you have a country like Canada that says you're not allowed to advertise pharmaceuticals because it's just not ethical. How do you advertise a suicide? It's not a pod, but I don't know, I don't think they're doing the pods yet. No, but it's like still a package 0 (18m 38s): They were talking about you can walk in and ask your doctor about it. It's, it's no different. So we've had rep, so here's what's really wild. I've kind of now gotten to the place where in Canada people just start to send me all their cases and their stuff to talk about because they're like, no one else is really discussing it other than rebel. And the issue with that is it's heavy and I'm happy to do it, that's, I'm okay to do it and I'm happy to to take that on. But it's heavy. And what I will say is you start to realize how many people have been killed in really dicey ways and to the point in which family members weren't told and nurse practitioners were doing it and now they're discussing, making it optional to not do it in a home or in a hospital. 0 (19m 23s): You can go to a park and they'll kill you there. Like it's in a park. 1 (19m 26s): Yes. Or it's a public space. 0 (19m 27s): Yeah, but it's with the medical professional and it's just so the conversation is getting really dark, really, really, really fast. And the suicide pods are one thing, but even then I think that's devoid of empathy and emotion. Putting somebody in a pod and saying, we're gonna ask you three questions and then we're gonna gas you to death. Like that. To me, just that pod scares the living hell out of me. And I think when people are going to pass and doctors are going to enact that in a palliative care setting, other family members should be around them. They should be held, people should be holding their hands. People should be praying for them. People should be in the rooms. Like, I get emotional. Oh, I really am not okay with this. 0 (20m 9s): And it, this is not like a a click bait. Let's talk about it. Let's, this is my life and this is something I'm fighting so hard against because my son is young. And what happens when he gets upset one day and the wrong person says to him, he, well just, you know what, it's so much better when you die. Anyway. Yeah, I'm, I'm genuinely very afraid for Canadians and I'm more afraid that people don't know it's happening and they're impressionable and I don't have another choice but to yell about it because I, our legislation, they have a committee that is looking at MAID, these people, people have come through and talked to every physician and almost every single major physician that runs their province has come forward and said, we are not ready for this. 0 (20m 55s): Canada is not ready for this. That's not the answer that it should be. The answer should be no country is ever ready to allow people down to the age of 12 who are perfectly healthy. You took an oath, a hippocratic oath as a doctor to say that you'll do no harm and that you'll always try to heal people. You know that depression is healed, but we know that it's a gut health issue. We know that it's a brain injury. We know that it's a chemical imbalance. So how could you ever say to someone, you will never heal from this. That's just not fact. We understand there are a ton of people in North America that have a genetic component that causes them to feel more manic, bipolar, schizophrenic. We understand that comes from food. We eat the lack of movement, the lack of water and sunlight. 0 (21m 37s): We're humans yet we treat ourselves like we're robots and we wonder why we feel disconnected and unhealthy and sad. We need to go way back to where it worked, closer to the earth, closer to the sun, closer to others. Hugging people. Like when I hugged you yesterday, you hugged me. I was like, no, no, I'm not done. I'm so sorry. I am hugging people. Once you hit 10 seconds, you get a release. Right. You get the oxytocin, the dopamine. It's, 1 (22m 1s): But that feels like an uncomfortable amount of time. Definitely. 0 (22m 4s): It's only an uncomfortable amount of time for people who are not comfortable being around other people. I, I did a hug at, I had a hug the other day at a, at a retreat. It was a four minute hug. That's a long period of time. I dunno 1 (22m 17s): If I've ever done that in my life. Right. 0 (22m 19s): But it was actually one, I encourage people to just try it once in their life. It's really beautiful and it really makes you feel connected to another soul. And I think that's the difference is we're so disconnected, we're so obviously disconnected on a continuous basis that we don't have the right empathy. We have the taught empathy, but we don't have the feeling of empathy. They're very different in my opinion. Yeah. 1 (22m 45s): Yeah. I, I try to think of the more sinister perspective. Like why would they be pushing this? Because the money doesn't make sense to me. And it might sound like a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not right. It was, the annual savings is projected to be, and this is a huge swing, so I don't know who's doing their numbers, but between 34 and $136.8 million a year, that's not a lot for a country. 0 (23m 9s): So 2021 they saved $86.9 million. 1 (23m 13s): Okay 0 (23m 14s): On not providing by doing, but 1 (23m 15s): That's not a lot. But 0 (23m 16s): If you do that, but think about this, if you do that at the small number, they're doing it before a full expansion rollout, then you, you factor in the amount that it's gonna take to put somebody in proper care for mental health. So say you get a 14-year-old who's depressed, maybe they are bipolar. Okay, well let's think about the follow-up care, the amount of time on doctors when we, Canada's already so short you, it's death care. We can't get in a, you cannot get into a doctor unless you go into the emergency and then you're there for a day. People are dying in the waiting rooms constantly. So think about it's not just the financial number. Think about everything else that goes with it. Take, take veterans for an example. 0 (23m 57s): 'cause this is where I can speak to a little more from an educated perspective. G wat happened, so Afghanistan, Iraq finished, well, we had X amount of people that go, we had X amount of people come back with post-traumatic stress disorder, some form of mental illness or cancers from burn pits and exposure, you name it. People who lost limbs, amputees who need new limbs on an ongoing basis. And then you've got their pensions, then you've got their pay. So when you add up the amount of money that is actually saved from one person who's maybe a burden on the system, this is not just a financial medical play for, for a savings. 0 (24m 40s): It's a, the actual individual and what that person costs the government on an ongoing basis. And our veterans, most of the time we were looking at like, what, 18 to 27 year olds? Okay, so you have to look out for 'em until you're 75. That's expensive and that is huge on the system. And then you turn around and we're giving crazy amounts of money to Ukraine. So Canada can't sustain that the same way America can't. So the best way to do is remove the burdens from the system just like they did in World War ii, you know, the people that needed a little extra help and all of this out of compassion. Then you're freeing up crazy amounts of capital. So the number may not seem big, but when you break it down it, it is quite large. 1 (25m 18s): And it also seems like such a paradox that the country that's doing the most innovative work with Psychedelics for specifically PTSD is also pushing something like this. I think it was maybe on the trigonometry episode or maybe I watched Vox too. And they did a debate between someone that worked at MAID versus a psychologist that was very, very hesitant about it. And I think they were talking about, I think it was also a veteran that came in and it was the first thing that they offered. Yeah, because, and to her she's like, well you know, it's not a good option. It's tricky. It's really tricky if you are on a wait list and you know that if you can just wait long enough, if you can, you know, outlast the clock, this thing on the other end will help you. 1 (26m 2s): Right. But that waiting period, she had no problem with them using MAID while they're on a wait list. And she's like, well it's just, it's tricky. It's 0 (26m 10s): Not tricky. It's not like, it's not tricky. 1 (26m 12s): How's that sound of mind? And I dunno, it just seems wildly unethical and kind of like malpractice 0 (26m 20s): In my personal opinion. It is. And you know what's gonna end up happening is the same thing that's going to happen and you're about to see what's going to happen with all of the de detransition and all of the doctors. There's gonna be lawsuits like you've never seen coming. 1 (26m 33s): I was watching someone talk about that and they actually, they didn't think that the lawsuits are gonna end up happening because you have all the institutions as that is the proper protocol. Oh the care. So there is no misalignment between what the doctors are doing at these clinics versus what the institutions of like pediatrics are suggesting. So if there was a discrepancy there, then technically the doctor was a acting out of line. But because the institutions are captured that no one's gonna be able to actually sue. Maybe your parent, maybe you'll be able to sue your parent. You could. I'm not sure 0 (27m 4s): There, there's gotta be a line there for, for some sort of consequence because realistically the long-term damage is obvious and we're seeing it with more and more individuals coming out and speaking about it. The same with MAID. You can't just kill people while their families don't know and give them an opportunity. 1 (27m 22s): Well here's, I'm so torn, I'm really torn. I the kids is a full stop. No to me. Okay. Full stop. No, where I'm torn is I am a freedom maximalist. Right? Like in the truest sense of the words. Yeah. So long as you are not infringing on other people's freedoms and other people's safety, I don't necessarily want to live in a place where government tells me what I can and can't do with my body. And I think, I mean there's always that other option and that's always existed. And this just seems like a cleaner alternative to someone who's in a ton of pain. Like think, and I'm not talking about if you're aton of pain. Yeah. I'm not talking depression. Right? Like we should offer those people like compassion and other forms, treatment of treatment. Right. It shouldn't be like, here's this bye-bye. 1 (28m 4s): Like I don't think that that is the right thing at all. But I also don't want it necessarily to be fully illegal, I guess. I don't know. But then again, you have the slippery slope. So I just lost my train of 0 (28m 16s): Thought. So I'll, here, let me give you an example. Liz Carr brought this up to me. It was, it helped me shift my perspective a little bit because I could see it through her eyes. So Liz Carr is a disabled actress from the uk. She's been in Loki and Omen and all of these, I had no idea when I met her, she's like, yeah, I'm an actress, look me up. I was like, okay, okay girl. And anyway, she's wonderful. She's wheel wheelchair bound. She was born with a certain disorder where her, I think it's like her bones didn't develop quite accurately. So she is a quite tiny fragile female, but oh my god, she's a badass. So she goes, look, Kelsi, let me, let me reframe it for you because I was very much the exact as you and she goes, the UK doesn't have this yet and this is why we're fighting this. 0 (28m 56s): Once a bill goes into place, you don't get to decide what's amended and walks through. That's the concern. And so, yes, and I'm again, I'm in full agreeance over 18 1 (29m 7s): Terminally ill, 0 (29m 7s): Terminally ill. You have every right to end your life. And I believe that compassion 1 (29m 12s): And the fact that it's not legal in, so I think we have a handful of states where it's legal and if you've ever had a grandparent or great grandparent that had dementia or Alzheimer's, it's a ton of pain. They're not there anyways. No, I right now in sound of mine, I can tell you if I'm in my eighties, nineties, whatever, and that happens to me like, please, you know, yeah, help me out. And Jordan Peterson did answer a question, it was one of these panels that he did and it was him and his wife Tammy. And I think it was a, like someone in the crowd had submitted, okay, what do you think about MAID? And of course it's Jordan Peterson. So it was a 20 minute answer, but it's worth the answer. It's very emotional. It's very vulnerable. And he explains how when he was really sick that in the thick of it, he's like, I can't do this for another day. 1 (29m 54s): And he doesn't necessarily give a binary answer of course. Yeah. But it is what he alluded to, or my perception of his answer was that back in the day, if you had grandma that was really sick or someone with cancer, the doctor would maybe over prescribe. Over prescribe or induce like some kind of painkiller. Right. And then they would fall asleep and not wake up. And he said that that burden had to weigh on that individual and the family and it was this very intimate decision. Right. And he seemed to be okay with that. But I think the mass rollout and kind of the commercialization is where he seems to be not so on board. 1 (30m 35s): Which I understand, but I guess that way when that was the norm, you had to kind of nudge, nudge to get someone outta pain. That didn't seem right to me at all. 'cause I'm like, how are you making that illegal? And again, if we do it for our dogs and our horses, why can't you do it for someone who's terminally ill? And it's just unfortunate that everything kind of has to get bastardized and you have something that could be good and helpful. Yeah. And you start wanting to make more money instead of caring about people. And I think that that's what's happening. 0 (31m 3s): That's the concern. Right. And we, Canada has had this since 2016, right. Carter versus Canada. She came forward, it was a British Columbia woman and she, she says, I want to be able to die on my own terms. And she, she challenged the courts and she won. And that's when it started to become legal. But after that we saw this really rapid uptick, really scary. 1 (31m 22s): So would you have a different opinion if there was a certain protocol? So let's say you go in and you have debilitating depression. Mm. And like truly debil and 0 (31m 33s): I've had debil. 1 (31m 34s): But what if they say you have to go to counseling, you have to do psychedelic treatment at maps. You have to do it for two years. Okay. Sign up for two years and then you still, that is a last resort. Does that change anything? 0 (31m 47s): I think part of the problems is the protocols that are in place are not sufficient even a little bit. And they are borderline of framework at best. The individuals that are pushing it have no clue what they're saying. You can do it with a nurse practitioner. You don't need a specialist, you don't need a doctor, you need a nurse practitioner, which I get. They are also trained, but you are not a doctor and that's okay. I just think there's always going to be people that will take advantage of these situations. And part of the problem is if we allow things to open more, there's always gonna be dark motives and evil motives that come in and we're seeing it. Here's my thing, when people say they have debilitating depression, by definition, I, I am diagnosed with treatment resistant depression. 0 (32m 37s): I've been suicidal. I was for seven years straight. Suicide attempt, like you name it, I've been there. They labeled me with post-traumatic stress disorder, major depressive disorder, treatment resistant depression. And I had postpartum after my son. So then I'm a full candidate. I'm a full candidate hearing loss. I'm a candidate neurodivergent because of a traumatic brain injury. I am a candidate. 1 (32m 59s): So Neurodivergency is a 0 (33m 1s): So yeah there. Yeah. So there wasn't a man that was killed. He was depressed and was neurodivergent fully function living on his own. And he had hearing loss and so he was a candidate. Do you see what I mean? So there isn't this, the line for me, and I've, I've really sat with this because this is a hard one. You're talking about people's lives. And what I've concluded for me personally is if you are not terminally ill, foreseeable death, meaning painful, excruciating, nobody should have to live through that. And you're not, over the age of 18, we're not having the same conversation. It is going to be abused. 0 (33m 41s): Full stop. I think psychedelic assisted therapy is one of the best ways to alleviate the end of life anxiety. So I'm one of 160 Canadians that has legal and regulated access to regulated psilocybin. I had to go through the special access program, which is extensive and time consuming and financially crazy. And most people who are ly Ill cannot go through it. And they turned down over 90% of of candidates. Their answer to me before giving me mushrooms was what about electroshock therapy? 1 (34m 13s): They thought that was better. 0 (34m 15s): And the only reason I did not have to do that before I was given access to psilocybin was because I had a traumatic brain injury. And when we told them that way, it gets better. They said if she throws an epileptic fit, it's okay. She'll be unconscious and we'll manage it. When you have a electroshock therapy, it is a non-invasive lobotomy that they cannot control what it kills. 1 (34m 33s): I thought that was illegal. 0 (34m 35s): No, it's, it's one of Canada's solutions to major depressive disorder. 1 (34m 38s): Is it legal in the states? Do you 0 (34m 39s): Know? I'm not sure about that, but I would, I would assume in certain cases, but for treatment resistant depression. So when somebody says, I'm debilitatingly depressed, well I've been there and you can heal. 1 (34m 50s): Oh my gosh. 0 (34m 51s): You just absolutely can. 1 (34m 53s): I'm looking this up. 0 (34m 54s): Please look it up. Go for it. I love America and they're tobo Chico. 1 (35m 4s): It's so good. 0 (35m 5s): It's so great. So I get very excited about this. So it's 1 (35m 8s): The little things, 0 (35m 9s): You know what it is. And that's the beautiful part about being able to come to the land of the free, so many, so many awesome things. 1 (35m 17s): It's still legal. 0 (35m 18s): Okay, so that 1 (35m 19s): In the 0 (35m 19s): Us Yeah. And that is their solution to treatment resistant depression. So 1 (35m 22s): How are we prescribing that? And we're like, oh, this little mushroom that grows on the earth is correct, the problem. 0 (35m 27s): Right. So I had to go through the, it took us eight months. They said, we'll give you an answer in a week. It took us eight months and that was, there was lawyers and a pharmaceutical company and everyone was fighting for me to get this. Once I got access, then I did the 1 (35m 39s): Treatment. Is it decriminalized fully in Canada? No. No. So you have to be part of a trial. 0 (35m 44s): You have to, well it's not even a trial. You have to have special access through the special access program. Okay. And that is a one track. And it goes to, I think it's like four people who make that decision for all of Canada. And they get flooded. And this is, most of the time it's, it's for terminally ill patients or treatment resistant, you have to fall under the category. So once they, we jumped through all the hoops and the only reason I was a candidate was because I had done 10 years of psychotherapy. Every pharmaceutical drug under the sun mixed with intensive physical fitness diet, traumatic brain injury treatment, and things were still there. And so when they finally came back to us, they said, okay, they have one last question. Is she willing to do electroshock therapy? 1 (36m 23s): And what, what foundation is this or what? 0 (36m 25s): So the special access program is Canada, the government? Oh, it's just government. It's the government. Have you applied 1 (36m 29s): For maps? I 0 (36m 30s): Have not. No. 1 (36m 32s): 'cause they're doing, they're obviously doing psilocybin, but they're doing MDMA too. And MDMA shows really promising work. Yes, it does. Especially with vets. 0 (36m 39s): Yeah. I haven't, I've never stopped. 1 (36m 41s): I don't think they're probably having a prerequisite of shock therapy. Something tells me that they're, that's not their jam. But I could be wrong. 0 (36m 47s): I, yeah, I, I would really be surprised if it was just because we know that it, it does more damage than it works. It's, this isn't the fifties and 1 (36m 55s): We also don't know the brain. We still have no idea about the brain. So we were talking last night about this person that had a tumor and it caused all of these ailments. And you don't even know what part of the tumor and what combination of the pressure on the brain was causing a complete shift in this person's personality. So to just say, let's just shock the whole thing and see what happens. Like a reboot. It's not the same thing as your apple computer. 0 (37m 18s): No, not even a little bit. It'll kill parts of the brain that don't come back. Whoa. So that's the thing that's terrifying. And you know, we did this in the forties and fifties when we didn't understand. We still don't fully understand. But what we do understand is that our food is a big component of depression. Our social media use and consumption is our lack of nutrients, if you will. Our movement, our lack of movement. You know, there's so many different things that are a proponent that ramp up depression. And covid was a beautiful one. We, we, you know, one of the best ways to do is isolate humans. And that's how you make people sad. And it's 'cause we need to be connected. So you're seeing this increase right now in people coming out with depression. 0 (38m 0s): People aren't depressed, people aren't taking action. And that is one of the ways that you can, and I get it, people are like Kelsi. But have, you've never been in your bed before. You can't get out. No, no. I have no, no, no, no, no, no. I have, but what had happened was I had a huge support network around me that was like, that's fine, you wanna lie in bed today, but you're gonna have to get up to go pee and we're gonna make you, 'cause we know you're gonna have to and you're gonna take a step. And even if you take one step outta that bed today, that's a win because you can heal from it. And anybody who says you can't, has never truly been to the depths. And that is my play zone. So I know how to get out of that. And most people can, if they have the right people around them. The problem is, is the influence around them, are they a burden to the family? 0 (38m 42s): Does the family see them as that? Well then they will, they push then made. Do you know what I mean? So it, it becomes a, with the children, you've got the munchhouse and by proxy issue, which people are going to take advantage. Everyone is currently, then you've got the individuals who are burdened on the system. So then you've got the people who are pushing it and then you've got the individual themselves, which can't see, can't see tomorrow. Right. That doesn't understand that your emotions are light waves and they can suck for a long time, but you will come through the storm if you have the right people around you. 1 (39m 13s): Yeah. So I don't know if you listened to Abigail Schreyer recent interview on Rogan. She was pushing this new book, right? I think it's called Bad Therapy. And she specifically got into some PTSD stats that I thought were really interesting and I wanted to get your opinion on everything. Yes, I'm excited. So she was, the book is against therapy for people who don't truly need it. She thinks a lot of us are overprescribing it and that we aren't telling people that there actually are side effects to therapy. Which I didn't know who would've thought that There's side effects to that, right? You like, you're going to talk to a professional air quote, professional, professional, 0 (39m 44s): Professional. 1 (39m 45s): So she was comparing the stats with Israeli soldiers compared to Canada and the us and they're significantly lower, which I actually thought was surprising because they seem to kind of be constantly in the thick of it. And you would think that that would overtax your nervous system and that would create more PTSD. But what she found is, so the stats for the Israeli soldiers are, and this is just roughly was 7.7 to 8.5% of soldiers that had PTSD. The US was 11 to 23% and Canada was six to 17%. So huge discrepancy between, between Israeli soldiers in the west. 1 (40m 25s): And her rationale for this was that in Israel they'll take you out if some, like you witness something bad, you get injured, they take you out, but then they throw you back in. Yeah. And it's kind of that old school parenting, which is brush it off kids, you're fine. Yeah. Go back in there and not over validating your monkey mind. Yeah. Where here we're like therapy, therapy, therapy, we label it. And then once we have that label, you create an identity. And then once you have that identity, boy is that hard to shake. So you are depressed, you have personality, personality disorder, you right? And then you're like, I am depressed. Well, no, you just feel like shit, don't label yourself as this. 1 (41m 5s): Otherwise you're going to perpetuate that thing. So what, what you see is that kind of trickles down to the kids and then the kids have all of this angst because they're getting labeled and labeled prematurely. And then the effects of that. And then you see that with parenting. And I don't know how much the gentle parenting has taken over Canada, but has taken over the US and there are definitely beautiful parts of it that I incorporate in my parenting. But I also have discipline rules, boundaries, right. Feedback. Like it's not a free for all. So gentle parenting is the kid falls down and scrapes his knee and you know, it's not bad. What they tell you to do is not say you are okay because that says you're invalidating their experience. 1 (41m 45s): Hmm. Is you're supposed to say, are you okay? Is it a big hurt or a little hurt? Yeah. And that sounds great. And I was doing that and Abigail's like, no, but if you look at the Israeli model, if it isn't, you know, it's not a bad injury, you are fine. So that's what I used to do. Until you see all this gentle parenting stuff, you're like, I'll try that and see how it feels. It seems more empathetic. But you are the adult in the room. So you actually are supposed to be the one that when they look to you, they're crying and you want to reassure them that yes, this is painful. Not all pain is evil. You can do hard things and you are fine. So it's a difference between you maybe he fell off from the playground and you don't know if he's okay. 1 (42m 26s): Then you ask, are you okay? Right. But if it's something little, you are okay, brush it off. So do you think that the brush it off method is invalidating feelings? Or do you think that that is kind of a necessary thing to create anti-fragility and resilience? 0 (42m 42s): So I'll tell you what I do with my son. Yeah. Which is a mix of both in terms of the gentle parenting comes in for me, where it's teaching him about his feelings. Meaning are you feeling it in your stomach? Are you feeling it up here? We do that 1 (42m 55s): Too. 0 (42m 56s): Yeah. And because then that way they can describe to you if I'm upset, are you angry? Are you anxious? Are you hungry? Are you sad? Where does it hit in your body? So he can understand, well we know that it's sits here so we know that it's not this. And then you've got the other side of me where it's, you know, our, my son is a, is a terror. That guy is a ripper. He doesn't stop from 4:00 AM to seven. And he has put his teeth through his lips more times than I can count. Oh yeah. He's, he's a ruthless kid. But I'm, if I know he's okay, I mean, I was a paramedic, like, you're good bro. And he'll look to you and he'll look at your face and you go, you're good. It's just a little scrape, man, you got this, you got it, move on. You're good. So if there, I don't ask him if he's okay, if I, because I can see it most of the time, if, if he's got a head injury or he is broken an arm, I'm like, well you're good, but we're gonna get that fixed. 0 (43m 41s): No big deal. Does it hurt? Yeah. Okay. Does it, how much does it hurt? One to 10. And then we go from there. So we help him self-diagnose rather than tell him how he feels if it's something severe. Now this is, this is interesting. So ironically Jocko asked me something on my first episode that actually was a really good question and I enjoyed it because no one's asked me. He goes, do you think if you weren't ripped away from the British the way you were and somebody sat down with you and said, Hey Kels, what you're feeling totally normal, what you're going through. A hundred percent expected this though. You gotta move through it. You can't hold it. But instead I was told, you're broken, you're injured. 0 (44m 25s): It would've been less paperwork if you died. Take these 11 drugs, go back out to the gun. Here's the thing. I didn't know need to go back out to the gun. I needed to stay with the British people I was just hurt with and I needed to go back out and get, not over it closure. But I need Yes, a thousand percent. Now that may be harsh for some people, and there are levels to this game, right? There are some people who genuinely shut all the way down. And you're not, they're not going back out there. It's not, and you're a risk to other people, you're a risk to others, you're risk to yourself. And so I get that, but I wasn't at that point, I was at the point where if they would've got me and been like, okay, we're going back out again next week, it would've been hard. But I know that I would've been able to process in that timeframe, but they stopped the process and my ability to move through it by medicating and by saying, you're broken and by telling me I had PTSD while I was in the country. 0 (45m 16s): So the labels were immediately put onto me. And I was 19 years old. Yeah. So, no, I agree with the, a mix of the method because they're, like I said, there are levels to the injury. You can see them and they present pretty obviously really quick. That being said, it is, it is hard to send people back out because you don't know if they're going to be a risk to other people. It, it's no longer just about that person, it's about the person to the left and right. So it has to be looked at differently. But I can fully understand why Israelis would be, you know, less prone maybe to post-traumatic stress disorder. Look at North America in general. Look at the way that we treat people when they get hurt or their injuries. 0 (45m 57s): We coddle, we coddle, coddle, coddle, coddle, coddle. And we helicopter parent. Like, it's crazy. And we create these anxious states for people and tell them that they're everything from the sun. And then of course I was for sure one of those captured individuals with this is my label. And I had to sit with that for a long time. And there was a moment I remember in therapy where I sat there and I was like, I don't think I'm this thing anymore. But it's terrifying because if you're not that thing, then who are you? Because you didn't know who you were when you were always medicated. You don't know who you were for the past seven years, your whole twenties. And what does that look like moving forward? That's the fear of, of a, leaving the label is, is terrifying. 0 (46m 38s): But once you're able to, you're able to realize that it was a label, that's what it was. And your body just wasn't given the chance to process. And it was held in time by all of the SSRIs and the uppers and the downers. So I agree that there needs to be some change made. And I think that's why the Israelis, I mean they, Israel's been attacked for how many hundreds of years, thousands of years. They're born in, bred in war. It's the same way when you go to Afghanistan or anywhere else, it's like these children, they don't flinch necessarily when they hear a bomb drop or a a, you know, an AK pop off. Ugh. They're, they're born around this, their nervous system is developed in what I would say a stuck in a fight or flight state. 0 (47m 19s): And I'm not arguing that that's good because we understand what that does to the cortisol levels, the long-term damage to your body chemically. But of course that makes sense why Israelis have less less of it because they are born and bred around it. 1 (47m 34s): So with the PTSD and then this juggling between, you don't wanna be a helicopter parent, right. 'cause that does create anxiety for the kid because they do need to have some kind of autonomy. But also you don't wanna be like the boomer parents either who were kinda latchkey parents. I don't really have a lot of memories with mine. Like they were either working or on vacation. They, I kind of self parented and parented my siblings. And if you see this pandemic or this epidemic happening with young men, like 18 to forties and they're killing themselves. There was this compilation I posted yesterday. It gets me every time. It's all of, ugh. It's so emotional. 1 (48m 15s): It's all these dads Yeah. With their kids and they look so happy. Yeah. And it was like the very last video that they, that the wife had taken and you would never know. So with men it looks, it looks totally different. So like how do you check in without being a helicopter and how do you make sure, sure. Like the boys and the men around you are okay? 0 (48m 38s): Yeah. It's really hard. We have perpetuated this really negative stereotype in our culture called Boys Don't Cry. I, I spoke about this on Meat Mafia and I, the reason I I bring it up is because it's not talked about enough. We are, men are going through something right now. And we are not acknowledging it because of radical feminism. And men don't matter. And we can live this whole world without men. Well, jokes on you. You can't So stop pretending also who, who you get a call to to go fix the roof. 'cause it ain't gonna be you girl, Hannah Brown. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it's really rough. 0 (49m 20s): You know, we've, we've lost four times more people post-war than we did in the war. The majority of my friends, they're widows not from war, from suicide. And so these children are growing up without parents. And whether it's the alcohol that's brought in, you know, it's a coping mechanism in the military, right? They won't let us use cannabis. They won't let us use plant healing modalities. But they'll give us, you know, alcohol and say, drink yourself to death. Like they don't care. You know, pre-deployment, the week before we left, our guys had to be rushed out the back of the door because they were all doing coke that weekend and they would've popped positive. 0 (50m 0s): And so then we would've not had anyone to deploy with. So, you know, we, we created this culture of boys don't cry, don't talk about your emotions and don't give you the tools to deal with it. Part of the thing that happens with young boys, and I'm not a psychologist or psychol psychologist or a psychiatrist, but I will tell you the majority of my friends are men. And the men that I see, it's the everyday stuff and they have no one to talk to about it. That's what it is. And I don't know that there's any way to tell, because like you said, they look like nothing's going on. I believe it's now on us to open a door and start a conversation. And it, this is genuinely not a plug, this is just what I do. 'cause I don't know another way of doing it. 0 (50m 40s): That's what my buddy packs are for those bracelets, those packs of two. It's, that's call somebody up and you say, Hey, let's just go for a walk or even for a beer, I prefer a walk. But if you wanna go for a beer, you do, you boo and sit down and you just put the bracelet on the table and they go, what's that? And you and the conversation can start from there. It goes, how you doing man? You don't have to be weird about it. Don't make it uncomfortable and be like, how, how are you feeling today? It's like, how are you doing man? And most of the time, if you open the door, they'll walk through it, but they don't often get the door open for them with anybody they feel they can be a hundred percent themselves with. And that's why I work in the psychedelic space. And the majority I, people I work with are men. It's, they're able to open up to me, whether it's the container I hold or the fact that I'm a woman and they feel like I'm going to be more empathetic and less judgmental. 0 (51m 29s): But we have done a beautiful job over the past several decades of telling boys their emo their emotions are not valid. Crying is a weakness. And that if they do any of those things, they're not seen as a man. And there is even I've, I've, I brought her up before and I'm not picking on her, but she, she made a statement on this, this podcast, I don't even know what the show is called. It's essentially a, a, a guy that sits there and then it's a whole bunch of girls and he just like yells at them and the 1 (51m 55s): Whatever podcast. That's 0 (51m 56s): It. Thank you. That's the only way I can describe it. We're big 1 (51m 58s): Fans of that show. Okay. So un canceled weekly. 0 (52m 1s): Yeah. Yeah. I, I think I've heard you talk about it before, but one of the Turning Points contributors, she went on there and she's like, they're like, what do you think of when men cry? She's like, I think they're weak. And I think it makes 'em look pathetic and that shit right there, that is the problem. Mm. Women that think that when men cry, they're weak. The no, no, no, no. If a man is crying in front of you, that is the, that takes, 1 (52m 26s): He feels safe with 0 (52m 27s): You. And courage whole. 'cause I'll bet you they grew up being told that if they cried, they were weak. So it's this new generation of saying men don't need to exist. And men that cry are weak. And we're telling men that they have no place here. Of course people are gonna be dying by suicide at unprecedented rates. They don't feel valued. They don't feel like they have a purpose. And what do we know about When you take purpose away, everything falls. When somebody wakes up in the morning, they don't feel like they have a purpose. They don't wanna be here. And that's the harsh reality. We need to stop telling men that crying is unacceptable, that their feelings are unacceptable and completely flip it on its head and start educating these young girls who are delusional. 1 (53m 7s): Well that goes down to a woman just not feeling safe in her own body. For sure. It's protection. It's, you are so terrified of the world around you that anything that's perceived as a weakness on the male's end is now a threat to your personal cell. Like safety. So you're going after these very characterized versions of what a masculine is and it's the immature masculine that you're seeking out. Not the integrated, mature masculine, which is all of it. And I was talking to, what was that guy's name? I feel so bad. Dave Hurt. Is that his name? 0 (53m 38s): I think so. 1 (53m 40s): I'm so sorry if that's not your name. I'm, I 0 (53m 43s): Thought, I think his first name's Dave. 1 (53m 45s): Yeah. Let double check 0 (53m 46s): The last name. I could be wrong on. We talked about my memory last night in my hamster. 1 (53m 50s): Well I'm dealing with a time change and, and daylight savings. Yeah, Dave hurt. So he's like this big muscular man and he's a girl dad. Which I always, it's my favorite. 'cause that always tends to be how it works out. It's always the soup for alpha dudes that end up being girl dads. I think there's a lesson to be there, but I'm like, no one's gonna look at you and challenge that you are not masculine at all. But I guarantee being a girl dad, when those little girls run and like all those muscles turn into mush and you are just oozing love and empathy and all these things, like you become soft around them. And that doesn't mean you're feminine. That is the mature masculine, it's feeling safe and all of that. 1 (54m 31s): And then for a woman to say that, you know, if he's crying that that's somehow not, that doesn't make any sense. It just means that you feel so unsafe and you're looking for someone to compensate that Right. When the reality that can supplement it. Of course, having a strong partner, someone who's giving you certainty and providing leadership within your family, of course that's necessary. But if you don't feel whole by yourself, if you don't feel safe by yourself, no one else is going to give you that. You have to figure that out by yourself. So going through all of your hardships and coming back and integrating into society. And when did you meet your husband? Before or after? 0 (55m 5s): Right before I deployed. I was 18. 1 (55m 7s): Okay. So developing that relationship. Yeah. How did you get to a place where you feel safe by yourself instead of, 'cause what I see from these women, it's taking, you're taking from your man and what's gonna end up is you have a depleted partner. Yeah. Because you can't do your own stuff. So how did you get to a place where you are filling your own cup instead of trying to like take from him or someone else or mask it, whatever it is, 0 (55m 30s): Mask it for a long time. Like you can look at like when I was doing some of the biggest stuff with breasts and unity, like we were in all these like fashion magazines and all of these things and I've got this huge smile on my face, but I was dying inside, dying, wanting to die. Every waking minute, going to that office was just like, I'm, I can't do this anymore. Even had a child, had a great job, had you know, a beautiful home, had everything. And yet I just wanted to die. Like that's not right. There's something really wrong there. So there became a moment where radical accountability had to come into place. And I think you can, the mind is a very, very ooh magic tool. 0 (56m 10s): It is a superpower if you, if you teach it how to work. Now, I had a psychiatrist who was in Rwanda and Bosnia during the genocide. And he was a medic, he was a, a colonel, a lieutenant colonel. He had done all the research on post Rwanda veterans when he came back for PTSD. And so he ended up getting me as a client and this old man and my 19-year-old self who just, I would sit and start talking about things and I would start sweating and shaking and I would just be this, in all of our meetings I would get up and I'd be stuck to chairs and stuff. I would just pouring sweat. He asserted with me really quickly that a lot of what I was going through will heal as long as I was willing to do the work. 0 (56m 53s): And he will, he will walk with me and he's still my guy. I still check in, you know, every other week, every week. We're not talking about the same things. And he's definitely progressed with me. But the nice part about it was I had somebody that had experienced what I experienced on a, on a way more insane level who was incredibly educated and looked me deadpan in the eye and says, we're gonna be okay here. That's the, the serious amount of confidence that he, he was able to say that to like, it hit me and I was like, okay, if he says I'm gonna be okay, I'm gonna be okay. And once he was able to give me different healing modalities and we hit a plateau and I came to him and said, we have to shift here. 0 (57m 34s): He did not fight me on it. He didn't go, well no, you're on medication, we can't do that. He goes, all right girl, I trust you. Okay, you let me know what you need in the meantime. And when I was going off of my last SSRI that I was on for 10 years and I went off of it cold Turkey, which whoa, so dangerous. Is so dangerous. Yeah. The most dangerous. I had 30 days to be cleaned before I went to do some medicine and I wasn't gonna miss that for anything. It felt like the lifeline that I was so desperately needing. And he just said, you call me Brady's on speed dial. Everyone knew what was going on and it was one of the worst pains I've ever gone through. That being said, as soon as I started using plant medicine, it gave me perspective. 0 (58m 14s): It allowed me to go into the really dark, heavy things that had been walled off from trauma and break those open and and go in and explore what those all were. Once I had radical accountability and I knew I had a safety net with a good doctor around me, everything started to shift everything. I've never been on a pharmaceutical drug since it's been over four years. And I'm not the person who goes to sit in the jungle every month. You know? I go, good. No, no. Because I think the thing about Psychedelics people miss is that they're not a magic pill. They're an opportunity. They're an opportunity to learn. But you have to be willing to learn and you have to be willing to understand that you might not get the answers you think you want or you think you need, but what you're being faced with is exactly what you need. 0 (59m 4s): How, however, dark or light right, there's no bad trip. There's no bad trip. There's a learning lesson in everything. And that's my approach to life though. This life is happening for you, not to you. Once I was able to truly remove the victim mentality, everything shifted like radically. And, and that's how I was able to like start to make sustained and massive leaps in growth. I just think again, we're the labels. We we're all the, like I told you yesterday, we're the stories we tell ourselves. So if we're telling ourselves these stories, I am, I am, I am, I am. We become. So the second you remove that layer of victim mentality and go, no, I I am strong. No I do have this. No, I will heal from this. This just might be rocky for a couple days. 1 (59m 45s): Yeah. The psychedelic thing I think is so powerful and I wish that there was something that was legal and kind of in between the mystical woo woo, you have to go toru. Because while I think that that is probably the best, I've never done it. I do not feel called to it at all. At at 0 (1h 0m 2s): All. That's good. Don't go if it's not a calling. 1 (1h 0m 3s): I've had a lot of friends that have done it and then I see people that get captured and that becomes their entire identity. And I don't think that's good either. But I do think that there is something to the indigenous people doing it, to doing it in the jungle. I think that that probably is a wildly different experience than what people are doing at maps. And obviously they're different drugs as well, but just like the psychedelic experience in general. But that can be such a turnoff to someone who is a type A and doesn't want to get into anything esoteric. They would much rather do something like maps. But that's only available at Johns Hopkins. Right. In Canada we don't really have that in the States unless you find maybe an entheogenic church and then that's kind of gray as well. 1 (1h 0m 44s): And there's this guy, I think his last name is Meyer, he's a WEF guy. 0 (1h 0m 50s): Oh fun. Dun dun 1 (1h 0m 51s): Dun. But what they're trying to do is, what's the word man, this time is fucking me up. 0 (1h 0m 60s): Nobody noticed 1 (1h 1m 2s): Copyright, essentially psilocybin. 0 (1h 1m 6s): So we've already done it in Canada. 1 (1h 1m 8s): Really? So it's like they own it. 0 (1h 1m 10s): Yeah. So I actually did the clinical trial. I did, what 1 (1h 1m 13s): Is the word? It's not copyright, but it's like 0 (1h 1m 15s): The same thing they want patent patent. 1 (1h 1m 17s): There 0 (1h 1m 17s): You go. Yeah. And that's what's happening. So psilocybin has been patented in Canada? In Canada, yeah. So I know that they've apex, so they're called Apex labs and they are out of their head office in Vancouver, but they're out of New Brunswick. And I did the clinical trial with them. So I sat with the macro dose of the synthetic psilocybin. 1 (1h 1m 37s): Oh it's, oh yeah, it it's 0 (1h 1m 38s): Synthetic. Yeah. So it's, it's, yeah, it's wild. 1 (1h 1m 41s): Is it different? 0 (1h 1m 42s): It's Okay. So how I can explain it is if anybody's ever sat with a macro dose of, of traditional psilocybin, it's a longer, longer experience. Takes a little longer to jump into it. But this medicine was different. It was shorter in duration and there was a, if you were to think like a tabletop on a jump up ramp down, there is a entry point. But the difference is you had to initiate the conversation with the medicine. Normally with psilocybin, everything just kind of starts and you're just kind of in it. But this, you could feel it, the onset was within 20 minutes, I was dropped in completely. And it's almost like I walked up to a door and they're like waiting for me to open the door and I'm like, okay, I'm ready to learn. 0 (1h 2m 24s): And it's like the, and we're whoa. And we're in it and it's very strong, but it's very clear and very clean. But the, the healer that was with me, she practices and trains with the CAH in Brazil and she had sat down with their, their tribe and said, you know, is this, is this an integrity with the medicine? And what they came back with was that the medicine knows how to make humans do what it wants. It knows what people are driven by, financial ego, however it works. And so we sat with it and she worked with me on the ceremony and it was probably one of the more powerful ceremonies I've had. And I've done the jungle, I've done in America, I've done the trial, I've done all of these things. 0 (1h 3m 6s): And it was quite profound. And what was most intriguing to me about that was the how applicable it's going to be in case studies for individuals who, like you said, they don't wanna dive into the mystical, they don't, they just wanna, they wanna heal and they will do whatever it takes to heal. Now I'm a bigger proponent of that than I am of, you know, at home ketamine by yourself. 1 (1h 3m 29s): Yeah. 0 (1h 3m 30s): I really have a, I I've tried to figure out what it is about ketamine that, that, that bothers me. But there's something there. And I'm, I'm, I'm working through my thoughts on that. And so I, I don't wanna go too far into it, but I, I don't love ketamine. I know it works a lot for a lot of people and I've had a lot of people have incredible results. But ketamine makes me nervous just because it's so readily available. It's completely legal. It can be prescribed to anyone 1 (1h 3m 54s): Telehealth. Yeah. 0 (1h 3m 55s): Mm. Yeah. 1 (1h 3m 56s): I had this guy on my show and I went into this thing about how irresponsible it was to have a ketamine telehealth company. And he's like, I own a couple. 0 (1h 4m 6s): Perfect. And I was like, okay, well let's get 1 (1h 4m 8s): Into it because Right, it is, we're finding out it is very addictive. You have people doing their own dosage. Is it a long-term solution? It is synthetic. And I guess where I was going with the synthetic psilocybin versus something that's more organic, I was listening to this guy talk and he's kind of like out there, spiritual guy. So take that for what it is. But he's saying that the reason that you can do certain drugs and not get lost like psilocybin, like actual magic mushrooms. And it's not neurodegenerative, it's not a toxin like a neurotoxin. You can do it as many times as you want as we know, and you're gonna come back. It's because it's grounded in the earth. What happens when people do something synthetic is that is not of the earth, it's not grounded, it's made in a lab. 1 (1h 4m 50s): So you tend to get more ethereal. And then that's when you have someone that does too much acid or LSD and they don't come back down. Right. So it was like a really descriptive, and maybe it's woo, but it does seem to be something there. 'cause if you do look at more of these natural drugs and you look at these more synthesized ones, which one tends to be more problematic for, for somebody? 0 (1h 5m 9s): So with the synthetic PS assignment that I did, it's a direct derivative. And so it's grown in the lab and the way that they do it, it, it's given to me in a powder. And then they put a, a little bit of water and then you shake it and you drink it. Now it was, I enjoyed the fact that I didn't have the, the fiber from the mushrooms in the stomach we're like, Ooh, I'm gonna vomit. Or I might, oh, what's gonna happen here? And that can happen sometimes. Have you 1 (1h 5m 30s): Done a tea? 0 (1h 5m 31s): So I have tea, but I have never, I've never sat with tea. When I, when I use medicine, I, when I use medicine, it's, I, I, I'm a big, I'm a big believer that there has to be an integration program on the front end and there has to be one on the back end. And if I'm not going to work through something, I won't go sit in a big ceremony, I'll microdose I do find that it is beneficial for me. I go on, you know, six to eight weeks stints and then stop and do integration protocols with that. And so that's one of the reasons I struggle with ketamine. We're giving it to people. We're not necessarily providing the tools, the support network and the integration protocols that are necessary to pull people back down. And if they're doing it at home, the dosages, what they want it to be. The other thing is more people think that more medicine is better. 0 (1h 6m 16s): It's not. It's you have to be open to it or it's just not gonna work. And so I haven't done tea. Something about it. I'm not sure I would have to sit in a, i I I like to be held in a container because I respect Oh 1 (1h 6m 31s): You can. So I, that's how I, 0 (1h 6m 32s): Yeah, just have never done it yet. 1 (1h 6m 33s): Yeah. I have a shaman and that's his preferred method. Interesting. So he like makes your tea and you, the, the ceremony before is about an hour and a half. Okay. So it's very intense and there's energetic purging that he does. And there's music and there's him and his wife. We're trying to create balance and we did it really intimately, only a couple people. Then we've also done like smaller group settings. And then you have your journey. People come out when they come out. Yeah. Mine metabolized really quick. I was kind of in and out in just a few hours. Okay. And then there's this integration after, and everyone has food if you're willing like willing or wanting to eat and journaling and kind of explaining what you're willing to share with the group. And then trying to say how is this relevant and what does that mean for me? 1 (1h 7m 14s): 'cause obviously if you have someone and you're seeing all these jungle cats and these birds, that's gonna mean something different to you than the next person. So how is that relevant to your experience and your healing? Well 0 (1h 7m 23s): Let me ask you this then. So since you sat with psilocybin tea, how is that, what was the intention for you? What brought you to that space? 1 (1h 7m 31s): So I am fully into the woo. So 0 (1h 7m 35s): I wanna, how deep, so we were talking about at dinner, I'm like, how deep does this well go? 1 (1h 7m 39s): I, I probably believe too many things, 0 (1h 7m 42s): Honestly. I'm so excited for this 1 (1h 7m 44s): Honestly. So I'd, but to explain my introduction to Psychedelics, I would have to kind of backtrack and go into where I really started getting invested in this alternative space and spiritual space. I was told my entire adult life I was infertile. I had 0% chance of having kids. What this was specialist after, after specialist, after specialist. I had a couple autoimmune disorders. They just said it wasn't, it wasn't gonna happen. So I did a ton of personal development work. I went to biocybernaut, which I think is the most life changing decision I've ever made. And I highly recommend it to anyone who can afford it. It's wildly expensive, but it is life changing. Mm. It's neurofeedback training. So you go for alpha training, theta training, and then to select a select few. 1 (1h 8m 27s): He even does delta training. So I did that twice after my first time. I feel like when you start to do things in alignment, that's when fate and destiny start to just be so obvious and things just work for you. Yeah, right. It's like how there's no coincidence. Everything is very much just a gift. So I stumble upon this shaman and we click right away and I was like, I want you to come to the house and we'll do private meditations. Like just meet, you know, the three of us, like my husband, him and I, and he, we would do like these drum circles and these deep meditations and he eventually found out about my fertility issues and he's like, well let's just do, let's do a healing medicine circle. And I was like, okay, not medicine circle, healing circle. 1 (1h 9m 8s): So we, he has all his crystals and I know everyone's gonna come for me, but he has crystals, love crystals. And we did an hour and a half meditation. And what is crazy is I, so I had Graves' disease. Yep. I felt like something was getting pulled out of my throat and I had like a mask on. I wasn't looking, everyone's in their own space, I didn't share anything. So we get done with the meditation and he's like, I saw something come outta your neck. And it was like this shadowy figure And then my husband looks at him eyes white and he's like, I did too. And there that wasn't communicated. 1 (1h 9m 49s): So everyone's like, what the heck is that? I ended I the next couple days super crampy and I got pregnant without even trying what? Yes. My doctor was like, I don't know what you did, but it worked. So I got pregnant. Oh so that's baby number one. Then we were trying for baby number two and it wasn't working and I just felt like there was a blockage of sorts, like a psychological blockage, energetic something. And I was like, okay, I need to go back into the space. So I hi up my shaman again. I was like, listen, you're my lucky charm last time within a week I got pregnant so let's do like bump it up and I wanna do a psilocybin journey. Right. So scheduled that brought one of my girlfriends and it wasn't as exciting as I thought. 1 (1h 10m 33s): I think we all have our, we wanna go into Harry Potter land and see all these rooms and dragons and aliens and whatever and be one with the universe. And I definitely had some visuals. Mine was more kinesthetic, which makes sense to my personality. So I was shaking a lot for a while. Just a lot of almost those epidural shakes. And I felt like a little gazelle getting rid of trauma. Right? Yeah. Nervous system reset. And then I was in and out really quick. It was very gentle. I didn't feel sick, it wasn't overwhelming. Just very happy. And that was my main goal is just to have my, my bandwidth for joy to just be bigger. I knew that I wasn't experiencing as much joy as I could out of life and I tend to kind of be in this more neutral zone. So I just wanted, wanted to be, have a better baseline of just joy and appreciation, gratitude. 1 (1h 11m 17s): And then hopefully in that baby number two, it happened within a week, 0 (1h 11m 22s): Shut up 1 (1h 11m 22s): Another week I was pregnant with baby number two. What? Yeah. And I don't know, again, I don't believe in coincidence. No. And the fact that it happened both times. And I have all of these experts like neuroscientists that are telling me you can't get pregnant that are now in the hormone space. And then my endocrinologist, my endocrinologist, everyone was just like, no, no, no. And then both times I went and did an alternative. What people are gonna say wacky root. And both times I got two beautiful babies out of it. 0 (1h 11m 47s): You know, that's not a shock to me at all. 1 (1h 11m 49s): I know and I love that. But for some people don't think I'm so here for this. It just happened to be that way. I mean, okay, sure, no if that's the life you wanna live and the way that you wanna see the world. But I would like to see some more magic. 0 (1h 11m 60s): So I am what you, I call recovering Catholic. It's like my joke, it's like the raised in the church kind of vibe. And I really struggled with that in the connection. And there was just, I never felt like I fit ever. I used to get called like all the names and I, I learned as I got into plant medicine that there is no coincidences. That just because we can't see it doesn't exist like it just because it's not in our visual plane doesn't mean that it's not there. And that energy does get stuck in the body. I've seen some wild, wild things in ceremonies that make you question the reality of life. But the one thing I will say is there's a big faith in trusting in the unknown and trusting in what we can't see and what our energies will do when there's things blocked. 0 (1h 12m 47s): You know, I blockage isn't energetically like, I love that you described it like that Impala, because that's such a great example of the nervous system just resetting itself. Shaking is such an amazing, an amazing way to remove energy. I do that when after I've worked with someone, my left hand will just uncontrollably just like, are we done? Are we gonna stop? So for you, how has that been? Because if, if that's the way you seem to work and that seems to be a way that helps you heal, how has that led you or helps you lead into your life after you've had your children? Because I mean little one's little and so that means you've kind of dove into this head first. 0 (1h 13m 29s): I mean the results are, in my opinion, you can't deny speak 1 (1h 13m 33s): For 0 (1h 13m 33s): Themselves 150%, especially you've had everything prior to that checked. So how has that been for you kind of walking forward? Because you said you're very spiritual. 1 (1h 13m 44s): Well so I've, I've always been, so my grandmother's Buddhist, like Japanese Buddhist, my mom is Jewish but raised us Catholic. Okay. She said she wanted to give us a choice but she never told me I was Jewish until like adulthood. So like, well that wasn't really a choice for me. I have just seen the capture of identity everywhere. It's not to one specific group and then that includes religion. I think that there's so much overlap when you look at all of the holy books that it's very clear that most of them are talking about the same thing. And if you know, finding a community with very rigid rules and prescription works for you, then that's great. 1 (1h 14m 26s): 'cause I think, I think the biggest problem is that as Jamie Wheel would say, we have this God shaped hole in our, in our hearts, right? So many of us don't believe in anything bigger. And I think that that's a problem because if you think you are the center of the universe, that's overwhelming and it's just not practical. So you need to believe in something bigger than yourself that this life matters. So if the label works for you, then that's wonderful. I have a thing against labels and rules and I don't like being told what to do. And I think that God is the most personal experience that there is. And for someone to tell you that this is only the only way to experience God, the only way to touch God doesn't make sense to me. 1 (1h 15m 6s): And what I really don't like is the idea of original sin. So, and that's Catholics love that one. So I don't believe that you come into this world with sin. I mean most people you see a baby and you're like, that is, that is God. That is, yes. The closest to God that most people will ever see is like that purity of a baby and a child. And they're like, that is what is sin. I think sin is being out of integrity and in alignment with your true self. And that's gonna look different to a lot of people. And yeah, so I think I wanna be able to experience God by myself or with my shaman or with my husband or with my friends and in meditation and whatever way that that might look like in ceremony. 1 (1h 15m 50s): I don't want it to be this very sterile thing that's coupled with shame and punishment. 'cause to me that's not God. And then you can get into the conversation of has God evolved? Because if you look at it as God is the creator and made us, wouldn't you kind of expect a certain kind of evolution in consciousness from a creator as well? So if you look at the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, it's almost like they're talking about a different God. One is very authoritative, very punished driven, very fear driven. And the other one seems to be a lot more loving. So I choose to believe in a more loving, graceful God and one that isn't like one that isn't gonna punish you for the rest of your life because you did something wrong. 1 (1h 16m 32s): 'cause that's not a creator. I mean as a mother there's nothing your kid's gonna do. There's unforgivable no for eternity. Zero. There's always room for grace and redemption. So I just have a lot of problems with I guess the human element of religion. It's not like I don't believe in God, I very much do. It's not that I don't believe in an afterlife or heaven or hell, like I believe in those things. I just think that it's probably different from a lot of those books. And I think a lot of it is supposed to be in interpreted. That's why I think the a different word for the Jews is like those that wrestle with God. Mm. And that's one thing that I love about the Jewish religion is like you'll have all of these people at a table and they're arguing and everyone has a different perspective. 1 (1h 17m 14s): Yeah. And it's in love. It's a very much a lighthearted argument, but that's what it's supposed to be. You're supposed to wrestle with these things and not just take it verbatim because at the end of the day, a man, a person wrote that line, right? And then we don't even know if that's all of it. And again, there's so many other interpretations and then there's books that predate the Bible that have very similar stories. So again, I think a lot of them are talking about the same thing. And it's like, what is the core of that? And then how do you wanna incorporate that into your life? So it's to graze little spiritual beings and know that you know, you are not a body, you have a body, you're a soul. And to listen to that and not try to lose, like not let anyone take it away from you. 1 (1h 17m 55s): And I think that that's what so much of society and the school does, is we layer label after label and identity and trauma and punishment. And this is how you integrate into society, right? You basically, you break that child to where now they lose their true identity, their true soul and knowingness, right? And now they're operating on a set of rules that we have agreed are best for the collective. So it's to how do you become an integrated human so where you can function in society and thrive but also not lose the core essence of who you are. 0 (1h 18m 27s): This, that's a hyper complicated question too because I think first off, I absolutely love so much that you view that your, your viewpoint. Like we last night, it's really funny and I just wanna address it 'cause I think it was really funny. It's like all I kept thinking was like, what don't we agree on? Because we kept trying to find stuff, we kept trying to find stuff and you're like, I think I got one. I was like, no you don't. You're, 1 (1h 18m 46s): I was like, I watched that and you were too nice. And you're like, 0 (1h 18m 50s): No, no, no, no, no, we're just trying to be a nicer person. 1 (1h 18m 51s): We matched at dinner last night. We showed to the 0 (1h 18m 54s): Show the same outfit, outfit 1 (1h 18m 54s): Didn't take my necklace. Also wasn't 0 (1h 18m 56s): Ridiculous. Listen, listen, I think that's what's really beautiful is there's so much more complexity to you than, I love hearing you talk about things this way because so many people I believe look at religion one facet. It is, it's this and it's that and that is it. And there's no way to, to move it or think about it differently. And it's funny that you say that from a spiritual perspective, you're able to say God, because for me as a child, God was attached to Christianity into this Catholic church. And I, this may sound controversial, but I am one of those people where when we had that hard conversation last night, this is similar, I don't forgive people who hurt kids. 0 (1h 19m 41s): Like I get emotional about it full stop, right? I can't, there's just that part of me. And I know, you know, the, the basis of being a good human is forgiveness. But at the end of the day, there's a line for me, 1 (1h 19m 55s): I don't know if it's about forgiveness, I think it's about not holding onto rage. I so like for sure the old samurai, right? So before you chop off someone's head, you wanna be centered before you do it. So there's this old Japanese fable where the guy spits in the samurai face because he's about to be beheaded in the samurai walks outta the room. So the guy's like, ha ha ha got him and he waits a day and he comes back. Or maybe it's two days, but he takes his time, comes back, is centered and then goes right and does it because he's not gonna be reactionary, right? So I think the thing with that is obviously firing squad, 0 (1h 20m 32s): Right? Clearly, 1 (1h 20m 32s): Clearly, 0 (1h 20m 33s): Clearly. 1 (1h 20m 33s): But it's to not then hold onto that and you know, have this acid eat away at you, which I think you do see, you see some people that is, they're lost in the reaction of it. And it's hard because it's, it's evil, right? And it's really hard to see evil and there's this quote where we think evil is this dark thing and it's hard to find, but evil is a blinding light and it doesn't want you to look at it. Exactly right? So it's recognizing it doing the actions necessary to stop it. 0 (1h 21m 1s): Yeah. We just haven't 1 (1h 21m 3s): The actions 0 (1h 21m 3s): That's part of the problem. 1 (1h 21m 4s): No. For some reason we're trying to normalize it and be inclusive of it and it's like, try that in the wrong state buddy. It's 0 (1h 21m 11s): Not gonna work. Good luck. But that's my point in saying is you can, there's certain things to me that are unforgivable, but that I don't have to hold onto the malice of it in the darkness and the weight of it. I know it's happening. I know that I can't change that. But I know that the way that you do change that is by working individually with each person to find peace, to find themselves and align themselves so that you can overshadow you can be bigger than that. And it's, again, I'm not naive to think that I can go and fix the Catholic church, but the mafia that it is. But I am consciously aware that if I'm a better person, my child will be a better person. And hopefully over time, if we create better humans, we're gonna have a better result. The spiritual aspect is interesting to me because I've had to work through that, that that attachment of God with that and find peace in the word God. 0 (1h 21m 59s): Because for a long time it used to set me off. 1 (1h 22m 1s): A lot of people in the spiritual space won't use it, right? So I very intentionally use it. 0 (1h 22m 6s): So, and that's what I've actually started doing is, you know, I I actually told someone, they're like, you found God recently? I'm like, no, no, no. God always existed. I found God within myself and and started to understand that our souls and our energies are so much more connected. And when we align ourselves it all makes sense. And that's the feeling of God, that peace, that meditation that's sitting in ceremony, whatever it is that you wanna do to connect, I feel like that should be welcomed and loved and and cherished and just uplifted. And so when my son asked me the other day completely outta the blue when I was making lunch, I just looked down, he goes, mom, what's God? I went, oh, tiny human, you're intense. And I said, I I I paused for a moment because I remember looking back in my childhood going, I would never have asked that because I was, I was in church two days a week. 0 (1h 22m 53s): And you 1 (1h 22m 53s): Were told 0 (1h 22m 54s): Was I was told what God is. I was never shown what God is. And children learn by watching, not by being told. And so I looked, I I I have a tendency to do this. He's not much shorter than me now, but I get down to his level and I get to his level and I go, honey, God is you. God is the trees and the birds and the ocean and the moon and the stars. And it is all one. And we're all one and we're all attached and we all have an energy. And when we honor that energy and when we look after ourselves and we're being true truest to our highest self, and that is the connection to the creator. And he goes, okay. And just walks away like it was the most easy conversation ever. And to me that was so indicative of children. It's so black and white. It's so simple. When his grandfather died, who we named him after his great-grandfather papa, he, he goes, he's in this bag 'cause he was cremated. 0 (1h 23m 42s): And I said, yeah. And he goes, I I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll put push milk, I'll do it, I'll do it. So he gets down there and he is pouring his ashes. He says, I'll shovel him in, don't worry. There was just this detachment. And when my father-in-law's brother died. It was Jewish. It was Jewish. And so it was a Jewish ceremony. And he goes, we're sitting there in the front row and his wife is just, you know, really going through it. And he goes, is he in the box? And I said, yes honey, he's in the box. Where does he go after I said, we're gonna tape him out back. And he's the first one with the shovel just in there. And what was so beautiful about it was he got to experience death in a positive way and that it is not the end of life and that it is not the end of this dark heavy thing, but we can feel it, we can go through it, we can experience it, and then we can move on and live in, live by honoring them and speaking their name and like telling their stories. 0 (1h 24m 32s): And that to me is God. And so I've worked really hard with that, with the, the, the word God because it was just so negative for me for so long. And now when I hear it, I, I get excited. But I think that I love more than ever that you are able to sit in all of these different modalities with it and and and sit with God in that. And I think the differences is, I've seen this, I had a conversation with someone recently and they, they go, you know, we see you burn sage and Palo Santo and we see you doing breath work and this, there's I right there. I saw it when I came in and I was like, oh girl, what's up? And they're like, you know, that's it's very dark artsy of you. 1 (1h 25m 15s): Yeah. They go right to witchcraft, which I'm like a modern day witch, so I might as well lean into it. 0 (1h 25m 19s): I have been called a witch since I've been five years old. I was told I was seeing things that didn't exist that were fully existing. And people will label you and tell you it's wrong that you find God in that way. Well no, I find I understand energy and I find peace and I wanna clear myself and I've seen things come out of people's throats and I've seen the changes it can make in their lives. So don't tell me that there isn't something more powerful at play here and just because it's not your way of doing things Right. 1 (1h 25m 46s): And there's plenty of religions that use other things. I mean, so again, my grandma's Buddhist incense are very powerful. Right, right. It's welcoming ancestors, it's welcoming spirits. It's, you're supposed to do it very intentionally. My son does that. So I mean we, I do incorporate like a little bit of her Buddhism, Buddhism in the house. We have a little shrine and we have the incense and the bells and his beads and he does like this numb num prayer. Oh my gosh. And it's so cute in his little 4-year-old voice. 'cause they don't have their Rs or anything yet. So there, oh shoot, I just lost it. Oh, so incense, right? So the Tonto sage, you have the old Christian Catholic church that used to actually use cannabis when and enzymes going through, they used Psychedelics somewhere along the line. 1 (1h 26m 29s): They got rid of that and kind of forgot that that was part of their religion. It's, it's anything that ha I think it's, it's all power and control. 'cause if people can access God on their own, then they don't need the institution and then they don't need to be paying these tides. And it's just a certain level of sovereignty and freedom that a collective doesn't want people to have. But I mean people have always used different modalities to get to God. 0 (1h 26m 56s): Absolutely. We know that Psychedelics we're a massive part of religion for a long time and Psychedelics have been a massive part of several different programs. But for some reason, the second you give somebody the tool to heal themselves and not need you, we have to remove those right away so that you're reliant. That is a problem for me. I, I know that a lot of people have become reliant on Psychedelics as their modality or their identity. And I encourage those to maybe look at why you're doing it before you keep doing it and look to integrate properly. 'cause a lot of people, the pro, so the program that I coach on is with Hero Cards project and it's a mandatory integration program. And the whole point of that is so that when you're, you're going into this, I wise open, super prepared, ready with an intention set, diet movement, you, you're as clean as you can go in, we're gonna give you the best chance at succe at success, right? 0 (1h 27m 44s): You're gonna go through the experience and you're gonna come out and then you're gonna work with me again and you're gonna integrate the absolute living hell out of everything that you learned. Because the point is, you're not necessarily supposed, like you don't need to be doing this constantly. 1 (1h 27m 56s): Well how long is the integration process? 0 (1h 27m 58s): So it depends. So my personal, my personal practice people are much longer. But the HHP program is three sessions on the front end plus group sessions as well with everyone you're with. So it ends up being six sessions, 1, 1 3, one-on-one, and then you're in your group three times. Then you go into the medicine with the 10 people you're with and then afterwards it can go up to six sessions that they'll fund on the backend as well, plus your group. So you're tied in with community, you are shown how to work with yourself, you're given the tools to do so. And then we genuinely help you reset you back down in reality and ground you in really deeply. Mm. And that's why I work with them and that's why I do it privately for other clients. Like I have a lot of larger clients who are, you know, CEOs or you know, in services that can't be, they don't want people to know that they're dabbling. 0 (1h 28m 47s): And we will do an integration program for probably two months before and two months after because I think it's really important that you are really open when you go into this and you know what you're going into for rather than floundering in this idea and then then setting you and grounding you back down in reality and showing you how to integrate that in your, in your life, not the life you need to blow up and go start a new one and live in the woods. 'cause that's the feeling when you get home is like, oh this is, this is too much and we don't wanna see that. We wanna see you solid in what it was that you've learned and how do we take that into your family, make you a better husband, make you a better wife. Not only to make you somebody better, but to show you the value you have to make, you know, show you how to love yourself and work through those dark things that you were struggling with and show you that you are the medicine and that you can tap in anytime by giving them the tools. 0 (1h 29m 39s): Like there's a million tools you can give someone, but at the end of the day they have to be willing to do the work and be accountable. If I tell you to do something I'm telling you for a reason. If you're not gonna do it and you don't integrate properly, I can't fix that. 1 (1h 29m 51s): So with the integration, what would you say the tone of that is? So I have, we have this spiritual teacher, we work with him pretty much weekly and then we do several retreats a year. And my husband, I don't even know how many he's done and he's kind of like an OG psych went to Harvard. Oh damn. Ran with M Doss and Timothy Leary. Like he is just a wild man and he is tough love all day. I've sat through some integration like situations with him in a room full of people and when he comes at you, yeah, 0 (1h 30m 25s): Like 1 (1h 30m 26s): The air in the room shifts and it is very intense. There were a couple times where I was like talking to my husband and saying this is just too much for me. Yeah, it, it was really, really a lot. But that's what that person needed. And I think with a lot of this, especially the spiritual space, when you're getting into Psychedelics, that integration is just love and kindness. 0 (1h 30m 44s): Yeah. 1 (1h 30m 45s): And it's love and kindness. And there's this quote, I wanna say it, it's 'cause I felt like it's pertinent to pretty much the whole conversation, but it's a nietzche quote and it says, if you haven't lived, if you haven't lived long, you haven't lived long. If you haven't realized, the compassionate hand sometimes kills, right? And this is very much Carlos Waters, this is what he does. And I wish that there was more of it in this space because all that I've seen, and maybe it's just, you know, a lack of trying, but all I see is hugs and love and connection. Talk about that. And sometimes that's what you need and other times you get whacked in the back of the head. 0 (1h 31m 22s): Yeah. So I come from a, like my family is a little rough, like in in like a really positive way. Just like, you know, baby of seven, no running water till 12 came over from war. Like, ooh rugged people. And the thing that I loved about my childhood was that there was, it was a little tougher. I was given a little more stern lessons. The thing about that, that's really great, and I don't know if you've been able to tell from all of the content you've been so willingly digesting, which I appreciate, is that I am really passionate and I'm really stern sometimes. And when I say something, if I'm saying it and I'm saying it with a certain energy, it's, there's a reason for it. So I've had clients where you have to handle with kid gloves. 0 (1h 32m 4s): Kid gloves for sure. A hundred percent really in the trauma, really dancing on the su. 1 (1h 32m 9s): See I think that's when Carlos would probably be the harshest. 0 (1h 32m 12s): Well here's the thing, there's a line because when you're dancing with suicidality and someone's getting ready to go, that's when they're getting challenged the most by the medicine before they go. Because there's a saying that the medicine happens the second you say yes. So there's the subconscious that kicks in. And so we see people being challenged really aggressively in life right before. And depending on where that person is and where you can push, you can tell who you can push and you can't. But then I get the clients, which they come to me for this reason why I am more stern, where I will shake you a little bit and and put you back into your spot to give you perspective that some people prefer. Well they say that's a bit harsh. But I think that there's a line and I think if you're good at what you do and you can read people's energy enough, you know where you can push and where to back and how far you can take 'em to the edge. 0 (1h 32m 56s): And I'll give you an example. I was doing a retreat, I was working on it, but I was faced with some stuff by another coach and he got down to my level and screamed in my face. And when I say no one talks to me that way, no one talks to me that way. I think they're afraid of violence and, but for some reason, because I could tell it was coming from this really like, I wanna see you fucking thrive energy. He was so intentional with with his words, it hit me like I'd been punched in the face and I just started hysterically crying, but I needed it to get to this next level that I was struggling with. And so I think there is a need for it, but unfortunately you've got this, this energy of everyone needs to be handled with kid gloves. 0 (1h 33m 46s): And part of the problem is that's just not reality. Some people need to be shook a little and that's okay as long as you know who that is and who you're doing it to. It's the people who don't know. And this is why I'm a big believer that sometimes people over abuse medicine because they're not getting what they need on the backend. They're getting told no, that's okay. Yeah, that's fine. It's like, well no, it's not okay. You're not taking accountability, you're not doing the work. You are looking to go to another retreat to go to another retreat to go to another retreat. 1 (1h 34m 16s): They say books before they even leave basically. I've seen 0 (1h 34m 18s): That so many 1 (1h 34m 19s): People, there was this woman at a retreat I was at and she was asking the Speaker how many times that he had sat with Ayahuasca and he's like 56 oof. And I was like, the fact that you just know that is a little bit of a flag. And she said that her struggle was that she had to go to the jungle every six months and if she wasn't going every six months, she just couldn't function. And I don't know what that's like. Right? That's gotta be really tough. His answer, which I thought was very careless and maybe just not thought out, was just go every six months. And I don't sure if it's working, if it's keeping you functioning and it keeps you available to your family, that's obviously better than not, right? 1 (1h 35m 2s): But I think a more responsible answer would be like, why do you have to go every six months? Right? And how do you get to where those gaps get longer and longer and longer? And I think a big missing element of that is proper integration. Yes. Because you were then, maybe you go once a year, maybe you go every other year. Maybe you go only when it feels really necessary for whatever reason. But I think if you're prescribed it on a very predictable clock, it means that there actually isn't that transmutation happening, it's just change. Right, right. And it, the change is, you know, I move this water bottle to here. Yeah, that's changed, but is anything really shifted in a real way? No. What you wanna do is transmute, so it'd be like turning this into ice or something like that. Right. So that's the energetic equivalent or the healing equivalent of that. 1 (1h 35m 46s): So yeah, I, I just think it's a lot that you lose too because that community can be very fun and intoxicating. But it comes down to also having responsibilities and knowing it's not supposed to all be a festival. 0 (1h 35m 58s): So you can, and I think you nailed like nail head, bam. There are programs that are not doing integration. People are going to backyard shamans, people are going to people who are not trained. There's a psychedelic renaissance that's happening where everyone's jumping into it that maybe shouldn't be serving, maybe isn't, has the capacity to hold for people and they're not giving them mandatory integration. And it's, I get it, they're adults, they make their own choices. But if you want to have your best chance at success, the very bare minimum you should be doing is integration with these medicines. It's irresponsible, in my opinion, to send somebody to go experience something that could be so life altering, so shifting and not set them back down in reality and ground them into what it means. 0 (1h 36m 45s): And then explore. Explore that experience. You know, I had somebody who did ayahuasca one weekend and then the following week weekend went and did, I began, my head exploded. I can't tell you the rage I felt it's a lot. And that's your life. Live your life, your choice. But man, you haven't given yourself an opportunity here. You were given this massive gift. 'cause that's what I believe plant medicine is. It's a gift to us that if we use with intention and integrity, we'll be around and we'll stay around. When you abuse these things, bad things can happen. And you've seen that people have died in ceremonies. People have never come back. We have people who are doing groups of 50 and 60 people with medicine at a time. 0 (1h 37m 26s): Are you 1 (1h 37m 27s): Joking? I think they get bigger than that now in some of the South American ones I've, I've heard of over a hundred, like 120. Which now are you? So I guess the dangers with ayahuasca, it's what your heart rate, you could stop breathing and dehydration. Right? Those are like the three things. It's not actually a toxic overdoses. 0 (1h 37m 44s): It's not toxic. It's toxic. Yeah. You're not gonna have that. I mean, I've seen people drink, I've seen women smaller than me drink just unbelievable amounts of ayahuasca and just be perfectly still and fine. I've had this much before in a ceremony. I feel like I'm getting hypersensitive to medicine. So I actually use less to really go. And I've been completely in space for eight hours. So I think it's, again, it's intention. Intention. It needs to be, people are not intentional with a lot of things in life. Yeah. And and that's something I was gonna ask you about. So people are not intentional when it comes to medicine or spirituality or what they're practicing and they just kind of, I feel like social media influence is where people flow in their life. 0 (1h 38m 24s): So for you, it seems like you've been hyper intentional with your life and your choices that you've made to come out and be this person. You've had past lives, you've had current lives. You don't hold onto your past. This is something we see in the veteran space where we, we live this life that we had at one point, but that's not who we are. It's not who we are now. But we keep, you know, dancing back, back and forth and we wonder why things aren't moving forward. So how do you find yourself being so intentional with all of the decisions you make? 1 (1h 38m 56s): I'm glad you see it. I think 0 (1h 38m 58s): People don't see it. 1 (1h 38m 59s): No. No they don't. Especially like my former self. So people think that if you get into any kind of, any industry that's counterculture, taboo, especially porn for example, that you must be someone who's out of control. You must be someone who has these urges. It's not thought out. You're impulsive, you're chaotic, you're unwell. There's a lot of these blankly prescribed ailments that they give someone that makes that decision to. So to say it's calculated or I was in control, it was intentional. Sounds very counterintuitive to a lot of people. But for me it was all of those things getting out and then starting introducing Candace, which was really hard. 1 (1h 39m 46s): And I, oh my God, I sat with that for a long time. And I would ask my husband, is this a bad idea? My name was already out. And anonymity doesn't exist anymore because the internet, like they're the best detectives in the world. So my full name was already out. But I just felt like for some reason owning my real self was really intimidating because the other stuff's all fake. That's a facade, that's an alter ego. You can attack that all day long. And I'm not even, that's not a real person, let alone me. Or there's no real connection there where I put Candace out and I'm vulnerable and I'm myself and I'm talking about my personal experiences and things that I identify with and that can sting a little bit more. 1 (1h 40m 27s): So it felt more dangerous than the other thing, which I think is kind of ironic, but I felt like if I wanted to be even have a shot at being taken seriously or even have a shot to be a person. 'cause it's something like our humanity gets taken away from us if we make certain decisions by certain groups. And some people will never try to give that back to you. Like they'll never see me as human. They'll never see me as respectable. And I'm not here to change anyone's mind. But for the people that are on the fence, I think I had to do that. It was almost like a forced evolution that was necessary. So a lot of people get like stagnant and they don't have a growth mindset or everything's a zero sum game, or they can just kind of be complacent and that's fine for them. 1 (1h 41m 11s): But I didn't really have that option. So it's either I'm permanently attached to this other identity, one that, you know, I made when I was 19, right? Or I have to do the really uncomfortable thing. And that is basically virtually stoned. So I don't know, it just set, it seemed like the necessary next step. Like I didn't, I wanted to do the podcast. I'm like, I had neuroscientists on, I saw you had Debra, so on. Who's I, I love her. She's a rockstar. And I'm like, I can't sit down with a neuroscientist and have them call me by a porn name. That is ridiculous. That's just ridiculous. 0 (1h 41m 46s): It would be a first, I 1 (1h 41m 48s): Had like these really big names that you would know start following me that are like intellectual juggernauts. And I'm like, I can't, I can't. Yeah. It's just, 0 (1h 41m 57s): It's not, 1 (1h 41m 58s): It's, it's a clown show and I can't, I, I just wouldn't be able to take myself seriously. So I, I don't know. I did it and it was the next step. And you obviously see the root repercussions if you go on my profile. 'cause some people are still very not okay with it. They want you to kind of stay in that box and not progress, but it's not up to them. 0 (1h 42m 14s): That's right. It's not up to them. And ultimately, what you've done and what you've been able to, and I, I said this to you yesterday, and I think it's important to address, people may see that side of you, but if you are watching you differently from a different lens, like I'm not looking at you like, oh my God, Candice this like amazing adult star who then just like magically transitioned her life into this huge podcast. Or like what you said with some of the, your, your guest list by the way is bananas. 1 (1h 42m 43s): Thank you. 0 (1h 42m 44s): And it is something to be so admired. But I also am consciously aware that that took immense amount of self-love, self-worth hard conversation to be able to come out that way. So I think what people see is they wanna hold you in that box and they want you to be that person. They thought that you were, you're this person to meet and this is all that you are. And we talked about that situation where, which I wanna, I wanna dive into where people think that they're, you are their property because they've seen you somewhere. They can act some type of way around you. But with this transition and with this decision to become this, you know, yourself really, not this other person but the person you've always been to put that out in the forefront. I can understand why you would want to do that because I don't think it would be a clown show. 0 (1h 43m 26s): But I also think if you're expected to be taken seriously, it's, it's gonna be a little bit different. Which I don't understand why because that profession is no joke. And I think it's a very serious profession. That being said, to be able to book the people you have, it's not about what your name is. It's about who you are and how you make them feel. And at the end of the day, that's really why your show has become what it has. I don't think, I think if you would've messaged me through your other name, I probably would've been like, you're still amazing. I would, you're impressive. I think people are so afraid, excuse me, to admire others that come from professions like that. 'cause what does that say about me then? There's nothing to do with me. 0 (1h 44m 7s): I see the person that is creating a valuable add to the world as she is and always was. And I see somebody that almost did cosplay into this other world. And I think you can have both. For some reason we've told our children and others that they can't do these types of professions and that it's because they're taboo. But is it really that taboo? Because the guy at the dinner table that didn't like what you had to say because it offended his wife on behalf of her, those people will surely go home and watch your videos though. So why is it okay for them to treat a human being that way in person and then be such a hypocrite on the backend? I think ultimately what I'm getting at here is people are allowed to evolve. 0 (1h 44m 51s): And anybody that doesn't agree with that, that says more about them than it says about you. And the, the way that you've been able to take risk and not only be taken insanely seriously in this space in which you should be, you should be at the, I mean you are at the top, but you should have a seat at every table and any table you want because of the people that you've had on your show. Because you can hold a conversation with them because you can genuinely ask them intellectual questions that most people couldn't ask. Even some of the top podcasters in the world hate to break it to you. I'm not sure why they're there. They can't hold a conversation to some of the people you've had on. That's just the, that's the harsh truth. You don't have to like it. But that's the reality. I've listened to a lot of your content. 0 (1h 45m 32s): You're incredibly brilliant and you are way more knowledgeable than people have any clue about even listening to you talk last night at dinner, I was just kind of like, damn girl. Damn girl. When do you have time to read all these bugs? Tell me about your schedule. No, because it's something to be admired. But anybody who's going to slight that, because you've had a past where you were, this is hard for people. This is gonna be controversial, really brave to do because that is the most vulnerable. Even though you say it's a character, there's an intense amount of vulnerability there. There just is. That's hard for people to rational and wrap the rainbow around their brain around what do you do in your house for camp? 1 (1h 46m 11s): So we, well, we say thoughts become a, thoughts become reality. I have like this Japanese calligraphy thing and its thoughts become things. Mm. So constant reminder to myself. 'cause I think, you know, I wanna uphold my own, my own rules for myself. Not only just for my child, but he'll say can't. And we remind him that it, your words are magic. So abracadabra as I say. So it becomes, so if you say you can't, you can't. And we gotta be careful that dark magic, because if you keep saying it, you're, we say you're gonna be just like followed kind of by that energy. And that's, and then more and more of canned is gonna happen. So do you wanna do that? You're losing your magic. You're losing your spark every time you say that. 1 (1h 46m 51s): Wow. And because he loves Harry Potter. So we, okay, that's kind of why and his favorite song right now. And it's not my doing, it's the Nanny. It's never say Never by baby beams. Like Justin Bieber when he was little God. So he's running around the house and he is like, never say never. It's so cute. So when he starts getting into a toddler thing, we'll play the song and just start breaking it down. And he's like looking at you just mortified. I'm like, this is your favorite song so don't do it. Don't, don't say never. That's, 0 (1h 47m 21s): I really like that. That's such a cute way of doing things. But it's, but it's also looking at the spiritual side of things and energy without having to get like real woo with them. It's just, it's talking about their magic and their superpowers. I really appreciate that perspective. My son's school this year, the very first week sent home a drawing sheet and the sheet said, I can't do this yet. And, and sure they added yet, but I was not okay with that at all. Because we already understand what our school systems are designed for. They're not designed to brighten the light of the child and the curiosity and the exploration and the thing that makes them so unique. 0 (1h 48m 3s): They're meant to conform to make a very certain type of human to then spit out somebody who just will go into society and do what they're told. So that really bothers me. So my mom, when I was younger, used to do this with me. She got a dictionary and she cut the word can't out of it. And every time I would come back from TaeKwonDo and I was exhausted or didn't wanna go again or whatever it was, she would go, I'm like, I can't, I can't do it. I can't do it anymore. She would go, go look. Tell me if that word exists. It doesn't exist. So why would it exist in anything else in life? And I, I think it's really important to teach kids that they have these superpowers and they have these ways that they can manipulate life in a positive way. Moreover, our children are being taught that they're less than weak. 0 (1h 48m 46s): They need help to do things and they're not being given any risk. So I wanted to, I wanted to ask you a couple things about your Japanese culture. Okay. 'cause apparently people don't believe you're Japanese. 1 (1h 48m 56s): I know. Yeah. We had this argument at dinner because Dan keeps asking for my very personal information, which is my genetics and I'm not handing that over. 0 (1h 49m 5s): Well, let's be honest, if Dan wanted them, Dan could get them. 1 (1h 49m 7s): That's true too. He probably already has them. I, he probably knows it more than I do. 0 (1h 49m 10s): He probably just wants to see what you are gonna give him to see if you're telling him the truth of the one he already has that's matched up. Right. 1 (1h 49m 16s): Integrity test. Yes. Yeah, yeah, 0 (1h 49m 18s): Yeah. That would be a damn 1 (1h 49m 18s): Move. No, he was giving me so much because he was trying to, he kept trying to call me white and I was like, even, even if that's true, which it's just, it's genetically not, the way that I was raised was very much like first generation Japanese American Buddhism, all of that stuff. So it's a huge influence regardless if I look like it or not. Do you know what I mean? 0 (1h 49m 36s): Yes, I do know what you mean. So do you know about the yellow bucket hats in Japan? 1 (1h 49m 41s): It's the dummy hats, right? For 0 (1h 49m 43s): Children? 1 (1h 49m 44s): Is that what you're talking about? The dummy hats? 0 (1h 49m 46s): No, I don't think this is a positive thing. Mm. Okay. No, this is a positive thing that Japan does. And I love this. And this is, this goes back to what we were talking about with Abigail's book a little bit. And they were talking in, at least in that podcast, they were discussing about how North American children don't take healthy risk. We we don't give them an opportunity for growth or to show them that they're capable of doing a task. We're always hover parenting, you know, these Snapchat parents and all of this lovely jazz. So Japan does this thing where from a really, really young age, you go on the subways and the trains and you go to school by yourself, you can go down to the shop and pick up, you know, some bread or you know, milk. You used to be cigarettes. Now it's not. And you can do that on your own and you can come home safely. 0 (1h 50m 28s): And the way what they do is they give these little bucket yellow bucket 1 (1h 50m 31s): Hats. I thought it was a badge. 0 (1h 50m 33s): Okay. No, the last one I saw was these, they have bucket hats now. Okay. And they, they do have a badge they wear too, but it, it's they, they say it stands out a little more. That 1 (1h 50m 42s): Makes 0 (1h 50m 42s): Sense. And if a child comes up to you who was wearing one of the hats, it's your job as a Japanese member to look after the children of Japan. And I thought that was the most beautiful and hope fulfilling thing that a country was doing. And I, I wanna know your take on it because I am for giving kids risk, but we live in, at least in North America, in this weird place where risk is a little more difficult to offer in a safe environment. So I just wanna know your thoughts on that. 1 (1h 51m 12s): It's so funny. So yeah, I'm aware of that. I didn't know his hats. I, the one that I saw were these badges. And the same thing. If you see this little kid and they need help, it's your job as a community member to make sure that they are sorted, that they can walk across the street, that they can navigate the subway. They are everyone's children. And I use this in the clip show for canceled weekly. Okay. 0 (1h 51m 31s): And 1 (1h 51m 32s): Gerard had feelings because of course Gerard had feelings and he's like, well no, 'cause it's not my kid. And then people are gonna take advantage. And then what do you see when you have this kid that has really shit parents and then I have to keep picking up the kid and then eventually it's my kid and like, right. He just took it off, off to, okay, that's a possibility for some, I don't think that that's happening in Japan. We also have a wildly different culture and infrastructure than Japan. So look at their subways and our subways. Yeah. I would never put a child on the subway alone here, especially in the, in New York City, it's not the same as Tokyo. You can't pretend it's the same. So I think what they have is a much more manicured, sterilized environment to where that's possible. 1 (1h 52m 14s): It's also a lot more walkable than a lot of our cities and towns. So I don't know how much of that we would feasibly be able to do. Although I love, I love instilling the autonomy and agency into a small kids. So it's something that they do in the system, the school system there, as well as they don't have janitors. So the kids are responsible for maintaining the learning environment. And you can say like, that's not okay. But it teaches them it, it teaches them to be invested in their space and to contribute and hard work. Right. And I mean I think that's really valuable. They have very intentional lunch. There's no phones or like you're sitting there, there's no talking. You can talk after lunch, but during lunch it's to be really present with your food. So they're teaching consciousness and mindfulness at a very young age. 1 (1h 52m 56s): So I think that there's a lot that they're doing that's great. They're young people are also really struggling with a lot of mental health as well and connection. And the average age of a virgin in Japan is 30. Whoa. And they are very quick. Like the birth gap there is astonishing. So it's, they're definitely not a perfect society either. But it's how do you take what's helpful and leave what's not just like anything else. Right? So what are they doing that you think that we could implement? And then what is maybe not for us? So I think giving kids responsibility, especially if you have boys. So my oldest son is four. He loves helping with groceries. Even ones that are really heavy, you can see him light up. So I let him, he opens up the front door, we get him delivered most of the time. 1 (1h 53m 37s): 'cause going to the grocery store with two littles is just not ideal. And so they get delivered to the front door. But he, I let him open the front door. He knows that he's not allowed to unless he asks, but he opens the door, he's like picking up the heaviest bags intentionally and waddling to the kitchen. And he's so proud of himself for this accomplishment. And it's giving them those little reminders that you are capable. And just because it's hard doesn't mean that it's always going to be hard. Right. And giving them the learner mindset as well. So I think that's really critical. It's, it's not, I can't now 'cause that that's, if you believe in quantum physics, and again, Joe Dispenza, you just put that out that it's, you're always going to be kind of a step away from attaining that goal. Because when is now, so if I can't now it's a perpetual, I can't now. 1 (1h 54m 21s): Right? So instead of, I can't, now I'm learning, now I'm learning how to do this thing. So it's not that I can't do it, it's just like with his juujitsu, which he hated at first, right? We had to make him stay on the mat and then we were just on vacation and I look over and he's rolling with his baby brother and I'm like, what are you doing? And he's like, says some move. And he's so proud of like, do it with me, not the 0 (1h 54m 41s): Baby. Right? That's a bit of bit sketch. 1 (1h 54m 44s): Yes. It's, it was padded all around. But he's developing this confidence. So say instead of saying I can't, which is what he was saying during practice as well, it's, I'm learning. 0 (1h 54m 55s): Yeah. That's really, that's really interesting because it's the smallest tweak. It's so simplistic. It takes no extra effort. It is not difficult to implement. It is a mindset shift and a verbiage change with children. It feels like a lot of these things that can be done are so simplistic yet for some reason our culture or society is so unwilling to integrate them in. And I, I'm still trying to figure out why. I'm not sure if it's unhealthy damaged parents and just the culture that was before us and how that all differs from like somewhere like Japan. It just feels like there's a massive amount of pushback. 1 (1h 55m 34s): I think some of it's nihilism, nothing matters. Mm. None of this matters. And I can't waste my time with verbiage. I'm just gonna say the easy thing. Mm. And I think that's a lot of parenting. It's that you get presented with an option that is easy and maybe it works, but it's easy and doesn't require a lot of time or effort. And there's the really hard thing and it's slow. But boy, the fruits of that are going to be so much more healthy and beautiful than the other thing. And it's not to say the other thing doesn't work, but it's, do you wanna come from a higher place or do you wanna do what's easy? And anyone who has kids knows it's not easy, right? So you signed up for a really big challenge. And I think it's up to us parents to do the most that we can with what we have. 1 (1h 56m 14s): And I think most of us just don't demand enough out of ourselves. Like, I'm tired. That's hard. You don't know my kid. They're especially difficult. I mean, everyone's saying the same thing, but I think just change. Just change and stick with, it might not be an overnight miracle, but Right. Your internal dialogue as an adult is what your parents were saying out loud to you while they were raising you. So there's this question when you have this like Sabo, like sabotaging thought ask is that mom or dad? And I bet you, you can hone in onto which parent it was. So I think it's really important to be intentional with your language with them so that they can be intentional with their language to themselves as an adult. 0 (1h 56m 53s): Well, because ultimately isn't that again goes back to the stories we tell ourselves. So if what we're telling ourselves is garbage, we're gonna feel like garbage. And that goes back to what I was, I'm, I'm curious about is it, is it the damage done from the parents that doesn't allow us to want to progress. It just feels like this generation, our generation and the one right before us, ours is opening up to this different level of healing. This changing things like verbiage. So that're bet you have better self-talk, but then you, you start to look around and wonder, and I start to wonder, and this goes back to kind of Abigail's book, is why are we the ones that are so conscious and yet we are the ones that have the sickest children from a mental health perspective. 1 (1h 57m 36s): I mean, that's a really great question. I, it's almost like we were bombarded with too much information. So if you look at the greatest generation, which I guess there's probably a few of them left. Yep. They'd be probably century 0 (1h 57m 46s): That that was that conversation 1 (1h 57m 47s): We were having again. And their like 100 whatever. Yeah. They didn't have aisles and aisles of self-help books and endless YouTube videos and all of, all of these people dumping this is the way to parent. It was a lot more intuitive and instinctive. And I think the disconnect is we are relying too much on our intellect and not enough on our knowing. So there's so much information that's passed on into your body into DNA and we kind of know that it's, it sounds crazy, but they did this experiment with, with mice where they intentionally bred blind mice and then they had the blind mice mating with the blind mice. So you would expect that those mice would be blind in perpetuity because they have now outbred that that genetic ability to see, I think it was two or three generations in vision came back. 1 (1h 58m 35s): Oh right. So we still don't really understand the human genome and how our traits are passed along, but there is information that's encoded and passed along. So I think your parental instincts are there for a reason. And so much of us have this really deep feeling of not being adequate enough or not capable that when that arises we quickly push it to the side and we say, I'm wrong. This person that wrote a bestselling book is right and I'm gonna go against my parental instincts and do this intellectual thing when so much of any relationship is feeling and it's embodying that thing. So if you're overriding all of those thousands of years of evolution, I think you're doing a disservice. So it's to again, take the information that you find helpful, that resonates, that feels right for you and your family. 1 (1h 59m 19s): But not to deny that inner knowingness that is there and has always been there. 0 (1h 59m 24s): Hmm. I think, I think that's interesting. The, it's always been there. The knowing has always been there. 1 (1h 59m 33s): I mean, just from an evolutionary standpoint, your kids are supposed to survive. Correct. So the species can survive. So that information is there. Now surviving is different than, than thriving. We know that. But again, I think so much of it boils down to over intellectualizing everything. So if you're trying to psychoanalyze your kid, which is a lot of these gentle parent, let me make you feel safe. Do you need this stuffy or do you need this stuffy? Do you wanna wear this shirt? Where I saw this parenting advice that I thought was so wacky. She was saying, give your kid all of these choices. If I'm going onto an airplane, I don't want the pilot asking me anything. You know, I can pick my seat and I can pick my drink. Right? That's what I want. 1 (2h 0m 14s): So yes, give them choice, but age appropriate choices and maybe two things, right? Right. They are gonna be so overwhelmed. And I think a lot of us are doing that with our kids. And you do it from a place of love. But you have to be able to see how it's affecting them in real time. And then pivot quickly. And that's parenting too. Is being able to pivot on a dime. Is this working? Is this not working? 0 (2h 0m 33s): So let's look at, this just leads into a perfect, it's like you know what you're doing or something. Let's, I wanna talk about choice for children. Let's talk about it. Because if, if we know that when we give children, you know, I, I personally think children are like bowling balls in an alley and there's kid rails. And I feel like as long as you give children a safe, somewhat wide ber, but something they know that there's gonna be a line like a consequence or a responsibility they can smack off of. And it helps keep them calibrated in a way where they can take the risk, they can have these kind of different thoughts and questions and ask things that most teachers are like, why are you asking me that? 0 (2h 1m 17s): Well why can, why don't you explain to me why I need this when I'm 16 years old? How's it gonna help me do my taxes? Right. People hate that. They hate being questioned by children when we know children are brilliant for a reason. So in saying that with, with the way that we raise kids and the way that we are giving kids all of this choice and no boundary line, we know that it's hard for them to make, like it's really hard for them to make decisions and it's really hard for them to calibrate. And then you have social contagions and influence. So I wanna talk about how you feel about hormones and children and making decisions and allowing six year olds to decide what they are ultimately going to be stuck with for the rest of their existence. 0 (2h 2m 4s): Because we gave them all of this responsibility they can't handle. 1 (2h 2m 8s): So I think when it comes to, it seems obvious, but it's not, we actually did a podcast. We had someone basically walk out early because the topic came up and they just didn't want to go against the tide or ruffle feathers. It was just like too polarizing of a topic for them to get into. Which to me that's concerning that this is polarizing because it seems like it should be obvious. I think that kids are brilliant and they are so connected. And especially if, again, this is gonna sound mood, but like so connected to God, the things that they say sometimes can take your breath away. But you have to remember it's still a child. Their brain's not done. So yes, they can have moments of incredible insight, but it's still your job to protect and provide and to help cultivate them and to the human that they're going to be. 1 (2h 2m 54s): It's not like gad sad guru said, this is this thing, you raise cattle, you cultivate children. Mm. So it's, yes, allowing a certain amount of freedom and honoring whatever they are going to grow into an oak tree is never gonna produce an apple no matter how much you yell at it. So to honor their authenticity, but also to understand that we live in a very complicated world and there are things that are social contagions and there is times where your kid's gonna rebel just to see what happens. How much do they, are they paying attention? How much do they love me? Whatever. Testing your limits and whatever way that they are. I think it's giving kids the tools that they are capable of wielding. 1 (2h 3m 35s): Mm. So I hear parents talk about sending their kids to public school and they don't care if they have a bad teacher or if they're learning troubling curriculum because I'm raising a kid who's going to be a critical thinker and can defend bad or can block bad ideas. And the importance of exposing them to bad people. Yes. I think at age appropriate times, it's very important for them to see bad ideas in bad people. Right? So they can understand everything is not butterflies and unicorns. That they do have kind of resilience and they have that identity where they can challenge things and really introspect and wrestle with things at the appropriate time. 1 (2h 4m 15s): I'm not gonna give my 4-year-old, my grandma has all of these real samurai swords like from battle. What? Yes. It's like they're, they're going to need a photo. They're insane. My son keeps asking. So every time we go to her house he's like, Han, can I just see the sword already? 0 (2h 4m 33s): She's 1 (2h 4m 33s): Like, no, no, you'll get the sword. You cannot have the sword. I'm like, what are you doing dude? No, we've already told you. He's like, but I'm ready. I'm for Yeah, 0 (2h 4m 42s): You're gonna cut your siblings head off 1 (2h 4m 43s): To him. To him that is, you know, he's a man now. He has no idea. So it's recognizing the brilliance but then also like chuckling at that there's still kids. So when it comes to something that is permanent, it's not me upholding my responsibility as a parent to give them a tool. They're not ready to access and master. So hormone therapy for an adult, if you have complete conscious consent, do what you want. Right. For a kid it's not possible. Right? So I, I just think it's absolutely reckless and people, moms especially, we're emotional creatures. We don't wanna see our babies in pain. And then you get this professional that says life saving affirmative care. Mm. Where do you have those statistics that it's life saving because the rates of suicide attempts for anyone with gender dysphoria. 1 (2h 5m 27s): We don't see a definitive answer if that goes away at post-transition. Right. So to scare and already scared mom is so unethical. And you should, you should probably be in jail for that or lose your license at the, at the least in my opinion. 0 (2h 5m 40s): Well that comes back to the responsibility of the doctors. And we talked about that with the MAID conversation, right? It's, we have these doctors and what's the motives behind them all and are they, i I ideologically captured by a group personally and how does that get brought, how is that brought into their practice with their patients? And that is the concern with things like therapy at young ages and leaving a child without your adult supervision in a room, what is gonna be said? How is their life going to change after? How are they going to feel after? And it it, it makes me concerned. So I guess the next thing is, at what age do you believe adulthood would be a safe spot for that? 0 (2h 6m 20s): Because girls, we know their brains develop a little bit different than boys. So where would you, is there a number you would put at that 1 (2h 6m 28s): For 0 (2h 6m 28s): Hormones? Yeah. For making a permanent life altering decision? Because they are, and people don't wanna acknowledge that. But when you introduce anything to a body and you change their hormone composition, it can be radically, radically shifting on somebody's brain. 1 (2h 6m 47s): I think that's so tough. 'cause we collectively have agreed on 18 for most things. Right. I think that that's too young. And actually on my list when for like the beginning part of the interview where we were focused on you a lot was ethics around consent and age. Because I find it troubling that we now think that the brain, the frontal lobe's not done till 30. Right? 30. Yep. And we're living a lot longer. But health span, lifespan, all of those things are increasing. So if we know we, I, I shouldn't say no. If we believe now that it's not till 30, should we go back and revisit certain things? Because entering the adult industry at 18 I think is abominable. 1 (2h 7m 29s): I don't think that that should hap that shouldn't be a possibility. I've been a very vocal advocate of raising the age to at least 21. I think 25 would probably be a lot better. Especially because it's permanent and you don't own the content and it, the social fallout from that decision is immense. It's ima, it's unimaginable until you actually go through it. And there's no way that you can weigh all of the pros and cons properly at that age. I know I didn't and I got in it 21. Right. So there's that. I was also on Lupron for a while, which is actually one of the drugs that they give to castrate the boys during transition I guess. So it's also used for prostate cancer treatment. I didn't know any of this. So this was for my endometriosis. 1 (2h 8m 10s): They, I had, it was debilitating. I couldn't get outta bed constantly achy joints. My hair was a mess. I would be so bloated, I'd look pregnant and I was teeny tiny. I weighed probably a hundred pounds at the time. So it was 100% affecting my life. So they're like, well there's this new clinical trial trial for this drug called Lupron. It's approved, it's been on the market forever. We use it for men all the time. They didn't tell me it was chemotherapy essentially for men. Jesus. They didn't tell me any that of the potential side effects, which include early onset osteoporosis. They told me I would be in a synthetic menopause. It's not, it's menopause. So I, at 19 years old, I was in menopause for a year. 1 (2h 8m 52s): They ship you the medicine and it comes with this big yellow sign that you put on the door. 'cause you have to like return it and they resend you. Okay your refills. And it says, 'cause it has to be refrigerated. So what was happening is the delivery man would have to wait and you'd have to sign and put it in their fridge. You put this sign on your door that says, I might be so sick, I can't come answer the door, please leave the medicine. Whoa. They don't tell you that. And they just start injecting you in, in the ass with this stuff. And I would have a shot and I would be out of commission for a day. Just like my whole body just felt exhausted. And eventually I got off it. My messed up my hips, like my, like the bone density in my hips aren't the same anymore. And that's at 19. 1 (2h 9m 33s): And so you Yes. Quote adult, but I didn't understand, nor did I understand what conscious consent really was. Right. It is benefits, alternatives and risks. Okay. I wasn't given any of those things. Just the potential benefits. And when you're that sick, right, you'll take whatever you can get. So yeah, at at the age is a complicated thing and it's probably not going to be well received. But I would say at least 21. And then also subject to approval. Because just like breast implants in the states, there's only a size that you can go. You it caps, okay, I didn't know this. Yeah. So if you go and you see these women that have insane to where, and this isn't even exaggerated like out to here, right. 1 (2h 10m 17s): And the skin looks almost transparent, right? They went to South America for that 'cause we don't allow that. So it's also recognizing that there's probably a mental illness to some aspect of this. And then is this going to have more benefit to this person or am I adding unnecessary harm? So in the states we say we won't do breast implants that large 'cause it's unsafe and there's obviously some kind of body dysmorphia happening, right. If you're requesting it. So we just, it's not even an age thing. 'cause you could be 30 and request that, that they're gonna say no. So I think age is one element, but then also there needs to be a really thorough mental exam where you have someone that gives you an actual diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Not something else that might like autism, that might be looking similar because you've obsessed on gender, which Abigail Schreyer work highlights. 1 (2h 11m 2s): So yes, age needs to be raised in my opinion. But also there's these other elements that need to be finely examined before you say yes because you lose your ability to climax. How important is that for a relationship? It's, it's immense. Which is why when sex starts to fall off, you see divorce, you see isolation, it's, it's not good for relationship. It's not good for like being a fully alive person. Right. Can't have kids. That's huge. And then we don't also don't know the long-term consequences of these high dose hormones. Right? We think that it can increase things like brain cancer. I mean that's a really big risk. So again, it's so many elements. I think yes, start with raising the age at least at least 18, I would say 21. 1 (2h 11m 44s): And then also the requirement of a thorough examination. And probably a lot more that I'm not thinking of. 0 (2h 11m 50s): Well, we've seen that, we see that 18 is this age that we've all agreed on, but we've also seen what happens when you give 18 year olds decision making powers like going to war. 1 (2h 12m 0s): That was on my list. Like is that ethical? Is it ethical to market to teenagers? Because you, if they sign up at 18, they've been looking since they were 17 or 16 and potentially earlier if they're a military family. So, right. Is it, is it ethical to market to an 18-year-old? Especially when you romanticize and glamorize the art of war. You see 0 (2h 12m 18s): Video games, right? 1 (2h 12m 19s): The video games and then like these badass men running through like with a, you know, a dinghy and they're going through the waves and they've got the face paint and they look like absolute heroes. And it's not to say that that's not important, it's not necessary, but it's like a, how much of it are you giving them conscious consent and how much of it are you trying to kind of romanticize the deal to where they don't know the risks that they're really signing up for? 0 (2h 12m 44s): Well that's the, I would a hundred percent agree with you. And that's gonna be, no one's gonna love that. But here's the harsh reality. When I deployed, we had a seven some 17 year olds. These are parents who then signed their farms for these kids to children to go. So no, I, I think that needs to be raised as well. But you do have that issue, right, where the, and this happens in the United States, this is not something that happens in Canada. And some people will argue, well know it doesn't, but we know it does. Recruiters will go to high schools and stand in parking lots. They will go to malls where teenagers are, they will go these places that children who are desperately looking for a community. And they will come in and they will, in my opinion, pray on them and tell them stories of glory and war and amazing things when the harsh reality is, it's just not that. 0 (2h 13m 32s): And that's what I said on trigonometry. Everyone's like, well, you signed up, you should know what you got into. I was not a military family. I did not watch the commercials. I did not know anything. I met a lady on a bus and went to war. Like there is that reality that that does happen. So no, some people don't know what they're getting themselves into. So I think eighteen's too young. I think eighteen's too young for a lot of things. We give 18 year olds voting rights. We let 18 year olds drink in Canada 1 (2h 13m 57s): Get an immense amount of student debt that they can't get rid 0 (2h 13m 59s): Of, that they can never get rid of. And that to me is what, it's almost like they're setting younger generations up to fail in a little bit by not being responsible enough, the grown adults in the room to say, we know we're adults now where our brains really started to develop. We know what the repercussions are. If we vote incorrectly, we do these things wrong. But we give these people this immense power. So speaking of that power, and you alluded to that, you got into the industry at 21, what made you wanna get into the industry at all? 1 (2h 14m 29s): I get asked that all the 0 (2h 14m 29s): Time. I'm really sorry. No, 1 (2h 14m 31s): You're fine. And I don't think I've ever given the same answer twice. Okay. 0 (2h 14m 35s): I apologize. No, no, no, no. I'm genuinely very curious. 'cause it 1 (2h 14m 38s): Seems I'm too, because I think it's, it's a constellation of, of events, right? Right. So we can start with the most obvious ha ha ha thing is I had abusive parents, they divorced really early. I didn't never really had a relationship with my dad. So like you can say that the love that you don't get is the love that you try to receive. And people think that that's funny. They're like, oh daddy issues are hysterical. But like, what is funny about a little girl not getting the love that she needs from a father? Like that's nothing really sad. So I'm sure that that probably played a role. I don't know how much. Right? Right. But I'm not gonna deny that. I think also culture heavily influences us, which is why I am really intentional with what my children watch and who they're around. 1 (2h 15m 22s): Because back then, I mean it was Pamela Anderson, Carmen Electra, all of these babes that were taking off their clothes and being praised for it. And I was like, well that's a way to get love. Mm. Right. So that was prob definitely an element. I looked up to those women, like they were absolute goddesses on earth. The healthy side of that is there is this real empowerment and embodiment of that sexuality and that femininity. And I got to really explore that and understand that side of me. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it, it's just if that becomes your soul personality or like the only thing that you're after, I don't think that that's necessarily a recipe for success or happiness. 1 (2h 16m 4s): I had a really bad relationship with confidence and sexuality and just like pleasure. Like non-sexual, non-sexual pleasure. Just like the idea of being really happy. Hmm. Felt like I wasn't allowed to, like this feeling of embarrassment would come over. And I think a lot of it came down to feeling unsafe. Like if it's like letting your guard down in some way. So if you have this childhood that's really turbulent, you can't. Right. You have to kind of be reading the room and assessing who's mad at me or write all the things that you have to do. So that was probably part of it too, is I could either, the role models that I had that were women ahead of me, I could choose to emulate that. 1 (2h 16m 46s): And that would take no effort. Right? Yeah. I had been born and bred to be this person's carbon copy. Mm. Do I want to? And the answer was unequivocally no. So for me it was to lean in and to dive into the thing that was most terrifying to me. And that was self-confidence. So getting naked on a camera and being intimate with somebody. And I was always told, like raised Catholic. My first long-term boyfriend was super Christian, was your virginity is something that's lost. That is your value as a woman. Oh wow. Be very careful who you give it to because that's the person you're supposed to marry. Otherwise, you know, that's the greatest sin in the, in the Bible. And you won't be forgiven. 1 (2h 17m 26s): Okay. So I lose my virginity to this boy and I'm like, I knew he wasn't the guy I was gonna marry. But now I did this thing that I can't undo, my virtue is gone, my worth is gone. So I stay in a relationship for way longer than I should because I overvalued what sex is. Because sex is a, your sexual experience is a vast spectrum. And anyone who has had multiple partners, not even multiple partners, just had sex multiple times, knows that every experience is different. Right. And you can have sex that's in alignment with a total stranger and you can have sex that's unaligned with someone you're in marriage and union with. Right. It's in my, I, in my opinion, sex that's in integrity has that shame element entirely removed. 1 (2h 18m 9s): I don't think that you can be in integrity in sex and have shame. And that doesn't matter if it's with your husband or your wife or someone that you just had a connection with for a night. So for me, my homework was to how do I, how do I remove and alleviate this shame that has been like so entwined in who I was as a woman and to the point where I couldn't even think about pleasure, sex, joy, all of those things were kind of off the table for me. And I was just at selfishly and you know, I started like nude modeling at 19, but I didn't get into anything more intense till 21. That's the time to be selfish and figure out who you are. Right. Right. Yeah. I'm not committed to anyone. I don't have a family. I need to do these hard things and figure out who I am in the process. 1 (2h 18m 54s): So I don't regret any of it, even though it's been really difficult because it's being forged in the fire. Right. Very much so. So yeah, I don't think there's one reason and I'm definitely a better person for it. My marriage is better because of it. Which sounds crazy to some people. But why? I was wildly jealous. You work. Yes. 5 (2h 19m 15s): Shut the fuck up. Yes. I don't believe it. 1 (2h 19m 17s): Yes. Like to like the mo, like to where if I was dating someone, if he had a girl like a friend that was a girl, that would be a problem. I'm just away. I know. I know. I was deeply insecure. I had attachment issues, I had abandonment issues. Right. I never felt safe. So any female coming in was a threat. It was a threat to what's mine. And then possession. Right. Because we have this idea that that's mine. It's not mine. It's sovereign individual. Right. Who wants to get up and leave. He's gonna get up and leave no matter what rules they put on him. Right. And now, no matter how short I try to make that leash and ironically the tighter the cage, the shorter the leash, the more that guy wants to run. So 0 (2h 19m 58s): Not ideal. 1 (2h 19m 59s): No, not ideal. So by getting in the industry, like I, I had to come to grips with this, what's fair for me? He has to have the same rules. Otherwise that's not gonna work. 'cause I saw other people doing that and like it's just work. It looks, it is, but it's not. It's still very intimate and it's still a lot for anyone to get their head around. So I went in and I was like, we're just gonna do this thing. We're gonna be open because that's what's fair. And oh my god, was that hard? That's why we were talking about monogamy at dinner that saying, 0 (2h 20m 26s): Well this is what I was yearly. So you're like, you're on the, you're on the same paved wagon. We're going down the same road here. I wanna talk to you about that because you made a statement at dinner. And I went, girl, what did you just say? So why don't, why don't you illustrate exactly what you said? 'cause I'm stroll butcher it. But it caught my eye. Well 1 (2h 20m 40s): I said it was like I was at this retreat and they were talking about consensual non-monogamy. Right. Alternative lifestyles. Whether that's poly open, monogamish, there's all these words for some, anything that's not just ironclad monogamy. And people are taking notes. It's these young people and it sounds sexy and exciting and hot. Right. And like 0 (2h 20m 60s): They're 1 (2h 21m 0s): Not ready for that. Right. But monogamy is best for most people. It is so much work to do anything other and to have it be successful. I'm not saying it can't be. I know plenty of people that are poly or an open relationships or have some kind of alternative arrangement that are great. They have families, they have successful businesses. It's not for everybody. And to not, it goes back to conscious consent. Like you don't really know what you're getting into until you get into it. Right. But if you're going to do it, you have to really go down and see how much is ego, how much of is attachment, how much of it is culture and parenting and religion and what do I wanna keep and what do I not wanna keep? 1 (2h 21m 40s): And the reason I say I think my marriage is better for it is because I went from being this very possessive, jealous, angry person that was obviously terrified to understanding I guess the, the importance of not taking your partner for granted. Which I think a lot of monogamous people do. Because you think that that arrangement is binding. Mm. So you tend to not show up for that person, how you show up for your boss or your children or even sometimes your friends. Right. So I think the possibility, you're just more aware of how delicate that is and how much attention it needs to be able to thrive. So how much do you have to water that plant and understanding that that that weapon, that threat is no longer on the table. 1 (2h 22m 23s): So for some people, if there's infidelity of any sort, mm. I'll blow up my family for it. You're gonna see the kids every other weekend. I'm gonna take half, maybe even more. Yeah. Depending on the state. That's a really dicey place to be. We've been through it, we now know that we can handle it. Mm. And it's not a threat to our family or our union. And set marriage is so much more than a sexual arrangement. Right. And I think we put so much weight on that thing at some point, every married couple's going to have stopping is going to stop having sex and they're going to stop forever. Right. You're not gonna keep going into your eighties. You're gonna have heart problems. Some people can go longer than others, but at some point, if you're together long enough right, it's gonna stop. 1 (2h 23m 4s): So what else is that relationship? And yes, sex can be spiritual, can be wildly connective and something that is sacred. But that doesn't mean that it has to look the same for everybody else. And it's understanding, again, you can have really shitty sex with someone you're in a marriage with and then you can have really intense spiritual connective sex within a marriage as well. So it's like, it's going into the thing with alignment and the removal of shame and yeah. It's just, it's not for everybody, but people will be so quick to say that, you know, I'm unlovable and I'm not. All of these things or my husband's dms are totally filled with a lot of love letters as well. But every relationship is, should be curated to the two people in it and what works for you and what doesn't. 1 (2h 23m 49s): And I see our relationship as way stronger than most around me because again, like we've been through a lot, we know everything about each other. We've had to deal with our own demons and each other's demons and still show up for each other at the end of the, at the end of the day. 0 (2h 24m 4s): But it seems like it takes a specific type of partner because I don't know that maybe both are always feeling it in a relationship. And I, I, I do see that with people who try it and it's more one sided. 1 (2h 24m 15s): Well the statistics on that. So ALA has done really good polling on this. Okay. The couples that do the best are fully into whatever they're doing. Okay. So it's not as, A lot of people will dabble as a bandaid. It's almost like the kids that get a puppy or have a child to fix the relationship, it's not a good idea. Right. So they're like, if we just introduce another person in the relationship, surely it'll be fixed. Well not at all. No. Now there's this whole other can of worms. Yeah. And it takes a lot of work. So you have to be whole and solid before you do any of these really big things. So it's being fully into monogamy or fully into alt whatever it is. Right. And not kind of like dressing it up. 1 (2h 24m 55s): Okay. What's the word? Like cosplaying? Yep. Essentially it's like you're doing it 'cause it's hot and interesting. It makes you artsy. Right. It's complicated and it's tough and you have to be able to go through it and know why you're doing it. Mm. So for some people it works. And then other people, it's going to break your relationships. So you have to ask why you're going into it. Right. And are you fully committed to all of it? 'cause it's not all fun and exciting and sweaty and hot. There's also afterwards and you're like right where you spend, I, you're talking to that girl too much or what are you doing over? It's this really deep trust too, 0 (2h 25m 26s): Has come with that. Well, and that's what I was gonna ask you as well. I mean, you guys have been married, was it 14 years you said? 1 (2h 25m 31s): Together for 14. Married eight. 0 (2h 25m 32s): Okay. So you've been together quite a long time. And so have you always been open? You were monogamous for a good chunk of that time? Yeah. 1 (2h 25m 41s): Okay. A good chunk. 0 (2h 25m 43s): So what brought, what brought that forward? I know I'm getting really personal and you don't have to answer if you don't want to. I just find it fascinating. I've been with my husband for 14 years as well. And so it's, I don't hear a lot. First off, I don't hear a lot of marriages past 10 years to be completely transparent. But then to hear it and then hear that you've gone from this state to this evolved state because it's evolution. You were changing. What brought that on 1 (2h 26m 6s): Again? What was, what was happening before wasn't healthy. Okay. So when I was, when we were monogamous it, I was not a healthy, monogamous person. Okay. I was, I was again super possessive and it like the worst kind of way. So by making everything even and opening up the relationship, it challenged me. And I could have crumbled and I could have left and he could have left. But we both decided that we wanted each other and to figure it out. And it, it was going through the pain points because knowing on the other side that that was worth it. And I think that was the, I had to do something really radical Okay. To change. 'cause my wi, it was so deep, right? All of the women around me were the same way. 1 (2h 26m 46s): Just an unhealthy level of attachment and anger and jealousy. So that's from birth to, you know, early adulthood, that's a lot of undoing. So I had something, I had to light the bitch on fire. 0 (2h 26m 58s): You really did have to set it and burn 1 (2h 26m 59s): Down to saying, I don't wanna do that anymore. And then to really know, like you can intellectually know. Okay. It's like he's just, it's one time. Does it really threaten the relationship does. Right. It doesn't necessarily need to mean anything versus embodying it, feeling it and then knowing it and then seeing it hasn't taken a toll on our relationship at all. Right? So, and again it helped because it made me overcome all of those bad behaviors. 0 (2h 27m 22s): Is there, do you ever have concern, like, it seems like there has to be a lot of parameters and rules around this. Yeah. And boundaries. And so I can imagine those had to be really thought out and, you know, talked about really intensely to make sure that everyone was being respectful. So I guess like you said, you would have to have an immense amount of trust for yourself and that person to know that. Because I think the biggest fear when I've heard others discuss this is very much, well what if they just fall in love with someone else and then they wanna leave into that? How 1 (2h 27m 49s): Often does that happen? Monogamous containers. I All the time constantly. So Esther Perel has this funny line that she says, so monogamy used to be one person until you died. Then monogamy became one person had a time. Oh. And now we have these other relationships. Right? So relationships have constantly of all the time. And then on average back, you know, back in the colonial era, marriages lasted 10 years before one person died. Right? So we're living in uncharted territories, so to say, like, this is the only way, that was the only way back when someone died within a decade. Like almost certainly. Almost certainly. Right? So I think we do need to assess like, what does my relationship need to go the distance? 1 (2h 28m 33s): Because there hasn't been this distance before you meet at 18, that's a long way to a hundred. Oh 0 (2h 28m 39s): Yeah. 1 (2h 28m 40s): Even if you say 70, but most people are gonna go past 70. I think our generation should easily hit, hit a hundred. For 0 (2h 28m 46s): Sure. 1 (2h 28m 46s): Easily. So Uncharted waters. Yeah. Don't pretend anyone has the answers. And if you think you do for a second, Google James Webb telescope, look at that. And then let's pretend that we know anything definitively. Right. Okay. So I think it's up to you to decide what is integrity within your relationship. Mm. And what is going to be, what is going to get you to that goal that you both want at the end of the day. So is it monogamy, period. Beautiful. Do that. Right? Is it okay, well people used to be married for 10 years before someone died. We're gonna be married for 80 before someone dies. What happens if someone slips up? Is it a slip up? 1 (2h 29m 26s): Right. Decide what you want. And again, there's so many relationships that are alternative that are fine, but it's, you can't have it all at the same time. Right? So if you're partying and socializing and you've got 10 paramours and you've got kids and you've got a business and then you've got hot, that's too much for anybody. Right? So it's prior prioritizing what's important at the time for you. Right. And showing up in a non-self way for what is your, your responsibilities first. Which is why I say if you're going to do it, make sure that you're in this really strong place because your responsibility is to your partner, right. And to your family. It's not to, you know, your feelings at the time and Right. These more like animalistic urges that we have. 1 (2h 30m 11s): Right. 0 (2h 30m 12s): It's, it's just really fascinating because you seem like you've, I don't think anybody has it perfect. But it seems like you've found a, you've struck a really good balance within your family, within yourself from what I've been able to gather. So at what point, I mean, I suppose your husband knew the business you were in, so how has that been and what is that like? 1 (2h 30m 37s): He is like the weirdest person I've, I've ever met in my life. And I mean that as a compliment, right? Like there's, there's no one like him. And if there's something that someone tells him he can't do or that it's the hardest thing, he's like, okay, I'm gonna go do that thing. Okay. You know, that's the thing he's gonna go master. So everyone was like, you can't be with her, let alone marry her. What are you doing? And I think the hardest part was everyone else's feedback that was not even asked for, but everyone felt necessary to give. And I, he sat with it enough. And the thing that he's kind of explained to me is this idea of compersion and compersion is experiencing joy or happiness for someone else's joy and happiness. 1 (2h 31m 21s): Mm. So not trying to clip my wings, not trying to control me. And understanding if by doing that the potential for resentment was super high, right? So she's gonna, I need to let her do what she thinks she needs to do and whether or not he's there for the whole ride that's up in the air. He never promised, I'm gonna stick this out, this I'm gonna be okay. It was something neither of us had done or even seen modeled for us. So I went into it knowing the risk and I just, maybe it was 'cause I was so young and you have that naivete, like, it'll work out. It's gonna be fine. And it wasn't easy. It's not to minimize it. 'cause there were tons of fights. We took months off of talking to each other. I was in la he was in South Carolina. 1 (2h 32m 4s): We did our own thing for a little bit. And I don't know, I think every relationship goes through the, your together, your partner together, your part one person's chasing, one person's chasing, then it's to make those less frequent and to get into a place where you're not really competing for each other's loves, but you're just on the ride together. So it was really hard. But again, I think we were, we went through so many hardships that made us more solid partners to each other and then more solid people for parents, for our children. 0 (2h 32m 34s): That's fascinating. It's, I've always been curious about how those relationships work. A friend of mine is a dom and she is a good one. And she is hot as hell. And she's this over six foot tall goddess before she puts heels on. So when I stand beside her, I just feel like a toy. I am like, what's happening right now. But anyway, she's, she's in a relationship with a friend of mine and they have, I've never seen him so happy, you know, and, and her lifestyle is so conducive to the space that he's in, but like, he seems so genuinely fulfilled and they seem so genuinely happy. And I always wonder how that balance works when you're in this space and you are doing this as a profession. 'cause like you said, when you're, you're acting, it's, and I think people don't understand that. 0 (2h 33m 17s): Like, how could you be acting? That's your body. What are you talking about? You're having sex with people on camera, but you're acting, it is a persona for you. So when you got into this space and that persona started to develop, at what point did you start to go, you know, maybe I wanna branch, I wanna, I wanna do more than this. 'cause I don't think it's, I wanna be more than this. I think it's, I just wanna do more than this. 1 (2h 33m 39s): Well, I, so I got out, I don't even remember what year I got out. I was a contract star and I'm pretty much, it was a dying breed. It didn't really, you didn't get offered contracts. It was very rare. Okay. It was too expensive for the studios and it just didn't make financial sense. So the idea of like a porn star was very quickly fading. Okay. And I think now it's pretty much gone. I think my generation is like the last one. And then you have the OnlyFans girls and influencers. Okay. So I was contracted to contract, to contract, and I started to see stuff on sets I didn't like, I saw girls getting taken advantage of. I was being, my boundaries were getting intentionally nudged all the time because they were hoping one day I would say no or I would say yes. 1 (2h 34m 23s): And I said no a lot. And I eventually went to social media about one thing, and I took a picture of the script and like, of course this is the script and they're not letting me choose this. And I got a call from the head office in Montreal and they're like, your contract is terminated and porn is very much a monopoly here in the west. It's one company that owns all the big studios. So then I got blacklisted. Oh, 0 (2h 34m 48s): Jesus. 1 (2h 34m 49s): And I, I don't regret it at all. I, I 100% did the right thing. I was standing up for myself and other people, but I was like, what do I do? I've got a mortgage, I've gotten bills and no one will shoot me because I I am untouchable right now. I, 0 (2h 35m 6s): Which is mind blowing. 1 (2h 35m 7s): Yeah, it was, it was a problem. So I was like, I'm gonna start my own studio. So started my own studio and started crushing it. 0 (2h 35m 14s): Of course 1 (2h 35m 14s): You did. I was hiring major stars, paying big, like I had mainstream fashion photographers on set. I had cinematic wow. Photo or cinematic cameras, like reds the whole thing. And it was beautiful and I was crushing it. So I did that and I still was just, I don't know, I was like, I don't wanna do this anymore. I'm kind of bored. I think I, it played its necessary role in my development and I was done. Okay. So then that's when I started the podcast, well, I started Twitch first, so I was twitching and doing like a cooking interactive thing and that got squashed. And then podcasting was the reiteration of that. 0 (2h 35m 57s): It's just, it's, IIII really enjoy how you view it. I think being able to see these things as really cool opportunities and growth, growth pieces in our life. You speak about it in a really respectful and frankly, I think really kind manner comparable to a lot of the way people speaks about the industry. And I think there's respect there. I think there's a lot of trauma there. I think that's what happens when you, you know, let young people make decisions on anything. But to see you transition into the podcast world. I mean, you, you said this to me a couple times yesterday. I actually caught it. You said it quite a few times and I, I don't know that I've ever heard somebody touch on it so often, but you have a particularly high amount of hate in, in comments. 0 (2h 36m 42s): And I get that people are, can be hateful. I've experienced it. But you, you seem to really be like, no Kels, just go read those. No, you need to read those. So how has that been for you? Because you're a mom and you're someone's wife and you're also a human going through a human experience. 1 (2h 36m 58s): Well, the last one people would say is debatable. 0 (2h 37m 1s): Well, those people suck. Don't, 1 (2h 37m 4s): Most of the time it's water off a duck's back. I truly don't. I'm not phased. And then there's other times where I'm either sense, I think I said this like oversensitive over caffeinated, overtired, whatever the thing is, and it just gets to me or someone brings up my kids and that's just a no fly zone for me. Right. So yeah, I think some part of me has to agree or think is possible, whatever it is they're saying. Otherwise I wouldn't get worked up over it. So if someone is like, you are a terrible mom, some part of me has to think there's a possibility for that to be true. If it's bothering me and it gives me a gift to go through, am I, am I look at the evidence you have the sage and the saboteur in your mind, would 0 (2h 37m 46s): You, do you, did you hear yourself say that? What? It's a gift. 1 (2h 37m 50s): Yeah. 0 (2h 37m 52s): I I'm real just, I I your ability to see shifts in perspective is very unmatched by a lot of people. This is fantastic. I'm very happy right now. Please continue. I apologize. I get very excited. No, 1 (2h 38m 7s): You no, you're fine. So it's a, it's just a moment that I say, okay, I need to either have a call with one of my mentors. I need to go meditate. I need to journal and I need to see how true this thing is. So one thing that one of my business coaches does, because he does a lot of NLP work, is you have your voice in your head and you have your sage and your saboteur. Which one is it? So your sage is your higher self truth, right? Like everything that you should be called to do and it's an integrity. And then your saboteur is kind of think ego. Yep. Trying to constantly push you challenge you give you false information to keep you stagnant and to stifle your growth. So the way that you can tell if it's a state, a sage versus just that your ego talking is look for evidence. 1 (2h 38m 50s): Mm. So it's very easy to get sucked into the emotions and say, of course I'm a shitty mom and of course I'm fat, or of course my husband doesn't love me. Whatever 0 (2h 39m 0s): The thing. Right? Perfect. 1 (2h 39m 1s): Whatever the thing is, it's so, it's very easy, especially when you have like 6,000 people telling you all at the same time. Well look for evidence of that. Right? It's not there, none of the evidence is there. So what am I gonna do with that now? Right. Let it go. Right. Let it go and then revisit it as needed. 0 (2h 39m 17s): A friend of mine said that to me recently when I was having a pity party. He goes, if I grab 12 of your closest friends and I put you on trial and your son's life was on the line, would you really, is that something you would feel comfortable saying? Do you really believe that? You really think that's true? Because it's, the evidence is all around you if you're willing to look for it. But I think people aren't willing to look for it. 'cause what could be they, could they be faced with at that point if they really are genuinely questioning, am I a bad mom? Well, if they look at the 1 (2h 39m 49s): Evidence, well, bad moms also don't ask that question. Well, 0 (2h 39m 51s): So they don't, and I'm trying to be, listen, I'm trying to hope that maybe bad moms will start asking themselves that question. But I think they're more asking what color do I do my kids hair so I can get attention, but 1 (2h 40m 3s): When's my next vacation? 0 (2h 40m 5s): Yeah. When's my next vacation? When's 1 (2h 40m 6s): Vacation? This little human is an inconvenience. 0 (2h 40m 8s): And that's, ah, that's the other thing too. And we don't have time to get into that, but it's the little humans and inconvenience. There's a, there's a subset of people I feel like have that belief truly 1 (2h 40m 19s): That kids are in an inconvenience. 0 (2h 40m 21s): Yep. Yeah. I've just seen it lately. And it just, 1 (2h 40m 25s): Like parents or, 0 (2h 40m 26s): Yeah, it's this, and again, I think it's this, this self self-love, these, these self-worth conversations within these parents. They don't think their value is inherently there as being a parent. They don't see that as a, as a self-worth thing like that. You are worthy. Right. If you're having these children, you are, you're probably, I'm, I'm optimistic that some people are worthy of 'em. I understand not everyone is worthy of the children they have. But I think it gives you an opportunity when those questions come up and you start to ask yourself these things. And I just, I, I'm, I'm hopeful that more parents will stop for a second and look at why they're maybe pushing things on their children or directing them and where's it coming from, from their, from themselves. 0 (2h 41m 11s): Because I think that's one of the biggest problems we have in the world right now is a lot of the issues are caused by people who are unhealthy and unwell and unwilling to look that in the mirror and go, Ooh, don't like what I see there. Well, 1 (2h 41m 23s): How much of it is even fixable? Hmm. Right. And not to be a wet blanket, but, but if you do have someone that has borderline personality disorder or is a true narcissist, not in like the overused way that we say it, an actual right. Or possesses some high quality of antisocial behavior or a dark, dark triad of traits. Right. Machiavelli, Bachi Valley, Machiavellianism there, it's ha we think those are incurable. Right? Obviously we don't know much of anything, but that is what is kind of agreed upon within the community. So if you do have someone that has one of these disorders is there's no amount of podcast books or anything that is going to make them change. 1 (2h 42m 5s): And that poor little one is just, it's there for a reason and hopefully they're stronger on the other side. But I don't know that those people are going to have a come to Jesus moment. No, some people it's just this idea of worshiping false gods. So it's these parents that are worshiping, can I go on a vacation so I can post it and I wanna go this fancy dinner and not be bothered and whatever. It's worshiping these things that really don't have any real value to them, but in the moment it's gratifying and it's a quick, easy fix because you don't love yourself. So you're supplementing that with things and experiences instead of the real thing. The most gratifying thing is the most thing that require the thing that requires the most out of you, which is your attention, your love, your patience, your growth. 1 (2h 42m 49s): So it's the things that challenge us the most, I think that give us the most meaning and fulfillment. But that's hard. And it's much easier to go grab a margarita and bring something on Expedia. Right. So I think you have these selfish parents that they just don't wanna do the work 'cause it's an inside job. Yeah. And rather than say I, I don't love myself. Right. And that's making me show up as a worse parent. It's, I'll just do another trip. I'll just buy another bag. It's fine. Right. Get outta here kid. Yeah, 0 (2h 43m 17s): That's right. You're here. I get it. And I can't put you back in. So we exist together now. Oh, Candace, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, same. It's been so much fun. I've really enjoyed this. 1 (2h 43m 28s): Yeah, me too. It's very 0 (2h 43m 29s): Rare that you get to sit across from another female that is really willing to be vulnerable, willing to have incredibly hard conversations. You're one of the, I would say the absolute top females that is willing to have incredibly difficult conversations. And when you come to the table, you come with facts and you come with data and you're not just, it's great to like talk about Palestine, but can we talk about you're really, you you, my gosh, it's, it's been a true honor to be able to sit. I'm so glad you decided to do it in person. Me 1 (2h 44m 5s): Too. 0 (2h 44m 5s): Oh, it's just so much better. And I've just enjoyed the company and just getting to know you at the depths of your core because I think ultimately you're, you're a lot more than people wanna give you credit for and in a lot of different ways. And that is to be admired. And the fact that you've been so willing to come out the way you have and put yourself on the line because you have gotta have some thick ass skin because I'm telling you right now, I talked to my husband about you last night for like an hour and I was like, I just dunno how she does it. It is insane. But it's important and it's needed and it's necessary and, and yeah, there's not a lot of people that can hold a candle to you. So I, I appreciate the opportunity and I'm just glad that we got to sit down and talk. 1 (2h 44m 44s): Oh my gosh. And I can't even begin to thank you enough for taking the time to come here and organize this. I know it hasn't been the easiest and back and forth and you have a wildly loyal fan base, which I've seen. I've, I've seen some other stuff. But if grand scale people support you, they recognize the good that you're doing, it's immensely powerful and necessary, again, one of the only female voices within your space, which is really crucial because it offers an important perspective shift, which, you know, there's not a lot of, so don't let people try to tear you down. I think you're a very necessary voice and thank you so much. 1 (2h 45m 25s): So where can people find and support you, follow you, all of 0 (2h 45m 29s): That? Yeah, absolutely. So I host a show called, which this is also on the Brass and Unity podcast. We have episodes a couple times a week and we talk to brilliant people like yourself. We talk about your lives and everything that's amazing in them. And you can find that on every different platform. YouTube all over the place. My coaching and speaking websites, just Kelsi Sheren dot com and then my brand websites, brass and Unity. And then the book is everywhere. Please go buy it. It's lovely. Yeah. 1 (2h 45m 54s): And the jewelry's amazing. I was, I was deck shout 0 (2h 45m 57s): We be in exact outfits. Yeah, 1 (2h 45m 59s): Yeah, yeah. 0 (2h 46m 0s): What about you 1 (2h 46m 1s): Darling? So for me, Chatting with candace.com, it has all my Candace socials, my podcast. 'cause Horbacz is hard to spell. It's, it's available on every platform, including YouTube. And yeah, that's, that's my main project at the time. I love it. Yeah, 0 (2h 46m 16s): I'm here for it. And anything else we can do, please let us know. Same. 1 (2h 46m 19s): Yay. 0 (2h 46m 20s): We 1 (2h 46m 20s): Did. Hi everybody. 0 (2h 46m 22s): Ah. And look, we did it in the time frame. Look at us. Go.
