#116 The Religion Business - Exposing Mega Churches with Nathan Apffel and Chris Ayoub

0 (0s): Christianity is under attack. And that's the only thing that is like allowed to be dissected or ridiculed or whatever. But obviously that's not true. 1 (8s): Churches are literal authoritarian structure. All the power sits in a select few hands. So about 890 billion with a B flushes into the Christian sector every year by individual donors. So almost a trillion dollars a year. And so that's more than the military, than the US military budget. No one knows where it goes. And all of that money comes in in the name of salvation. 0 (31s): And I've got seven jets. Everything I'm wearing is designer and I'm worth a billion dollars as a pastor. That is wild. 2 (39s): A hedge fund that managed over $150 billion was registered as 1 (43s): A church. Churches have become the epitome of what they preach. You should not be 0 (51s): Welcome to the podcast. Gentlemen. Thank you so much for coming to North Carolina. It's awesome to be here. I'm really excited. Yeah, 1 (56s): Thanks for having us. 0 (58s): I don't even know where to begin except for like, you guys must be really brave for taking on this topic. 'cause I have been doing nothing but like a deep dive for the last 48 hours. And what I'm seeing is kind of scary. And then I see that your TikTok got deleted, which is so weird. 'cause I was following and watching everything. And nothing that you were posting was against terms of service. Like someone obviously knew someone and got your account taken down. That's really the only thing that I 2 (1m 22s): Feel justified. Yeah, we got, we got permanently banned and that we met you through TikTok and we Yeah, we got permanently banned. And like your, when you say the terms and conditions, the very first flag we got, we posted, put a poll out there and we said, who's worse at managing money? The, the government or the, or the religious institutions. And we got a notice and flagged for alcohol and drugs and obviously it's like, none of those are Matt. Yeah, I'd say Nate, which one was the, the, the funniest one? Was it like the unoriginal video? 1 (1m 57s): Oh yeah. Like I, I've been making films and TV shows for 20 years and all of our content is custom. Like we go out and we film it. We have two investigation teams that we work with. And one of our videos that we produced got flagged for unoriginal content. And we were looking at it and we sit, we're like, every single bit of content in this video is original, but they flagged it as unoriginal and removed it. I think they removed it. Yeah. And so it, from, from day one on TikTok, we were under someone's microscope. And then ironically with that band happened, I was driving to Zion and I, I was just refreshing TikTok as I was driving, you know, being safe and it just wouldn't refresh. 1 (2m 40s): And I'm like, no way. So I went over to my personal and my personal disappeared too. Mm. I had, I had 73 followers on my personal account. I'd only ever posted two things. And so that was, that's what's wild is they, they whacked our main religion business account, but then they went and they took out our personal accounts as well. Yeah. That had nothing to do with The, Religion, Business. And so I, I've talked to a few people that are pretty in the know and they both think someone made a call to TikTok and was like, you need to just get this conversation off your platform. And so, yeah. And within an hour they probably, they, they asked three of our channels 2 (3m 16s): And like the, you know, whatever time we're in there are sensitive, like, like big punch words. So hate speech is a big thing with all the social media platforms. And so we also got hit with hate speech. And it's a nice perspective to say that you never saw that in any of the things that we, we posted. No, certainly not. But that was, that was one of the big things that they hit us with. They said that that we like hate speech is not tolerated. It's like, what? On, like, I was confused. It's 0 (3m 47s): Like, yeah. And it challenge is a thing that I hear repeated all the time on social media, especially by people that lean Right. Or certain communities. And they say that Christianity is under attack and it's the only thing that is like allowed to be kind of like dissected or ridiculed or whatever. But obviously that's not true because your content got entirely deleted. And then when you were going through, like, you had sent me some numbers, which I'd love to get into, which were kind of unbelievable. But I did go and I saw multiple sources all repeating the same numbers, which was crazy. Yeah. And then we can get into how that is even allowed to not be taxed and I guess all of the loopholes and all of that. 0 (4m 27s): But I guess, do you wanna, do you have the numbers or do you want me to repeat 'em? 'cause I wrote 'em down. 2 (4m 31s): No, no, you wanna go? 1 (4m 32s): Oh, they're baked into my head. What? Yeah, let's go. What numbers? Where do you wanna start? 0 (4m 36s): I guess let's start with the industry itself. Yeah. Like the Christian Church itself and how much money that's bringing in. I guess it's kind of estimated because they're not correct. They're not required to disclose that, which is crazy. Yeah. 1 (4m 47s): But so when you look at, so the show's tied called The, Religion Business, and it looks at the business of religion in America. And it's not just looking at Christianity. A lot of people are saying, oh, you guys are hating on Christianity. Why are you, you know, singling us out? And I'm like, what you don't realize is Chris and I were both raised Christian. I would still consider myself to be a man of faith, but I just don't, I'm, I we're unpacking the institution of it. Right. We're not, we're not dissecting your faith or, or questioning your faith or your belief structures. We actually wanna encourage that. But you have to look at the system that's been built on top of, of this message of Christ. And so we look at the global, so the, the thing that we've had to do is we had to go back to the bedrock of the, the institution, which is the tax code, right? 1 (5m 34s): Because you can, we live in a world where my reality is mine, yours is yours, yours is yours. And we can see that as our truth. But like the, the megachurch I was raised in, in LA is not the Christian experience that a person here in Wilmington might experience or in, you know, Miami might experience. And so you have to go to the tax codes to understand it. And I could say, oh yeah, my church's budget's 10 million bucks. This is a lot of money. It's nothing. When you start looking at the scope of Christianity, so about 890 billion with a b flushes into the Christian sector every year by individual donors. So almost a trillion dollars a year in, in 2025, it's gonna eclipse a trillion. 1 (6m 16s): And so that's more than the military than the US military budget that flushes into the Christian space. Now the thing with the Christian space is there's no accountability reg or reg regulations that can manage that. So that's just money in and money dispersed and no one knows where it goes. And all of that money comes in, in the name of salvation. So that's kind of the, the thing we're dissecting is almost a trillion at the moment, flushes in. And of that trillion 53 billion is stolen, straight stolen. So that's someone you give to a church, they take it into the back room, they count it, they walk it to their bank and they deposit it between that counting and that deposit, that's 53 billion stolen. 1 (6m 59s): 'cause a lot of people online will go, oh yeah, you're talking about the private planes, you know, and the housing stipends. No, that's all separate. Wow. 53 billion is stolen. And so the crazy part about that is that 53 billion could solve, could fund to solve the top 30 global social issues. And so just the theft alone could solve the top 30 global social issues. 0 (7m 20s): Whoa. So I guess the issue too is the The origin of the money because they're being required to tithe. And I saw that this one lady, I think she was at Hillside, she's currently suing. She's still employed there, but she's in an active lawsuit against them because it's requiring the employees to tithe 10% of their salary. Are 1 (7m 38s): You talking about church home in Seattle? Maybe 0 (7m 40s): It's that 1 (7m 40s): Church home in Seattle. Yeah. 0 (7m 41s): Yeah. And then thanks for the correction. 1 (7m 44s): I know a little bit about this space. Yeah. 0 (7m 46s): So how do you get a, how, I guess, where does the origin story of tithing, because I was trying to find, I'm not a theologist, obviously, and to my understanding it was 10% every three years to the poor, not to the church itself. 1 (7m 60s): Well, so the, the Show goes, so the Show is a history lesson. 'cause you have to go back to the, this idea of, of, of tithing. Because if you don't understand the root of tithing, you're gonna be manipulated. Which is what's happening at scale around the globe. So the first reference to tithe ever in the Bible is this, this kind of mysterious priest named Melek. And Abraham, if you know who Abraham is in the Old Testament, he was out fighting wars because Kings came in and stole all his stuff and captured some of his family. So he made a vow to God and he said, God, I'm gonna go out, I'm going to grab, I'm gonna kill all these kings. 1 (8m 39s): It's murder, you know, I'm gonna go out and wipe these kings out it, get our property back, get our people back. And if you give me a, like a blessing and, and help me succeed, I'm gonna come back and give all of it away. Hmm. So that was Abraham's vow. So he is walking back or riding back, I don't know what they were doing, but he runs into this priest named Melek. And Melek could do one of two things. He was a king. He could either attack Abraham and kill him, or he could bless Abraham. And so he saw Abraham and he goes, the story goes, your God blesses you. So Abraham goes, I'm gonna give you a tithe of the loot that we brought back in a tithe in Greek or in Hebrew literally means a 10th. Mm. 1 (9m 20s): So it's like when you see, when you hear the word tithe, people say, oh, I tithe to my church. That doesn't make sense. Mm. Because I 10th to my church, you, you or, or I give a tithe to my church. It's, it's that you have to understand the, the actual word. So tithe means a 10th. So, you know, Abraham grouped it all up, cut out 10%, gave it to Melek, and then gave the other 90% away. He didn't keep a dollar of it. So that's the first time you ever hear of tithing. And then you flash forward to the, the story of the Israelites leaving Egypt. You know, the story goes, Moses, you know, gets the 10 Commandments off Mount Sinai. And he gets these laws, these, they call it the mosaic laws are the mosaic covenants. And it's God's laws for the Israelites. 1 (10m 1s): So there are three tithes in the mosaic covenants. The first is the Levitical tithe. The second is the festival tithe. Then the third is the charity tithe. So you're thinking of a charity tithe. Okay? So the charity tithe is 10% of your crops and cattle every year to the poor. It had nothing to do with money. Mm. So this is a big misnomers. People think, oh, they tithe back in the day, so I should give my money. They weren't tithing money. They had money in currency. But the reason why God quote unquote gave Moses these tithes for the Israelites is 'cause God gave the land of Israel to the Israelites for free. It was a gift. So the story goes, okay, we're gonna give you this promise, this beautiful land flowing with milk and honey. 1 (10m 45s): And God goes, but because I'm giving you this land, you have to give me a tithe off the land, which is of the produce grown and the livestock that feed off of it. It had nothing to do with the silver in your pocket. And so that's where those three tithes come from. And it, so when people say, oh, I give a 10th. If you're, if you're claiming that you're tithing because of the mosaic covenants, you can't give a 10th. You gotta give 23.3% because if you add the three tithes up, you should be tithing 23.3%. So no, it, it's, it's a very complicated issue or, or idea. But it's just been this, our, what we've concluded is when you look at Christianity since Christ on Earth all the way through today, this idea of tithing, ebbed and flowed. 1 (11m 31s): There's never been a coherent statement on this is what it should be because their arguments fall apart. But so as you go through history, it's the demand of the church. So whatever the, whatever the church needed from a resource perspective, the institutional church, they just went back into the Bible and said, oh, we'll just pull these verses or this verse, and now you give us this. Mm. So like the Roman Catholic church indulgences were a prime example. Like the Pope just wanted to build the basilica in Rome. And so he just demanded, he goes, go sell indulgences. So giving to an institutional church ebbed and flowed throughout history. And what a lot of people don't realize is in early America, no one gave money to a church for hundreds of years. 1 (12m 12s): So tithing is kind of a, i'll, I'll gently say it's a misinterpreted or misused concept in the Bible. 0 (12m 21s): So how many of these churches are transparent? They're like, this is how much we've received from tithes, this is where it's going. 'cause they obviously need a salary of some sort. Right. Everyone needs to get paid for their work. Yeah. But I think there's a huge discrepancy between what is a comfortable life and I've got seven jets. Yeah. And everything I'm wearing as designer and I'm worth a billion dollars as a pastor. Like that is wild. 1 (12m 44s): Yeah. Well, what's the, I've been doing, I've been researching this for 12 years. Chris came on about a year in change. So it's been a big learning curve for you. But what was, what's the bedrock of this problem? 2 (12m 57s): The, the bedrock of this problem is, is the lack of accountability and transparency due to the fact that, so there's two types of nonprofits, such a secular nonprofit. And then you've got the religious institutions, the secular nonprofits have to report on a form nine 90. You got the revenues, the their assets, the liabilities, the top salaries and such on the, on the religious institution side. They don't have to do that so often. Like there's, there's just zero transparency s in the system for that. So humans will human, like, they're just, like they say, a adverse is the root of all evil. And like you start making, you get sucked into this system and you have an obligation, a moral obligation to report things to your congregation. 2 (13m 47s): But oftentimes, not all, some are very transparent, but oftentimes you'll just see the pie chart flash, you know? Yeah. And then they'll say, Hey, I, the pastor makes a hundred thousand dollars a year. But another level of that is, is we've seen pastors that have $150,000 a month housing stipend. I mean, I would, I would say that would be in the category of excessive for sure. 1 (14m 10s): Yeah. Well, let's unpack that idea of that nine 90, right? That, that nine 90, that is secular nonprofit files. It's like a W2 or a 10 99. If you're a contractor or an employee, that is a legal document. If you lie on this document, you can get in trouble. Right. So even secular nonprofits file that nine 90. Yeah. So this is a legally binding document that's a public document. So your donors can see it. There's no legally binding document that a, that a church has to file. So what that means is their finances are only accountable to internal discussions. And so if you have one shady person on that staff or in that accounting department, they can fluff numbers all day long. And so even if a church is transparent or accountable, you're relying on the integrity of that staff to present an honest snapshot of their finances. 1 (14m 58s): And humans are gonna human, like there's gonna be a little give and take. And I'm not, not, there's a lot of really good pastors out there and amazing people wanting to change the world. But it just creates this, this opportunity for, man I worked really hard this week. I do deserve to put this T-bone steak on the church. And then three weeks later that t-bone steak turns into like a weekend with the, you know, your spouse. And then a month later it's like, man, I should just put all my gas on this because I drive a lot for the church. And before you know it, you've kind of, the system's eaten you and now your whole life is quote unquote expense and ministry on the church. And then because there's no legal document and there's no line itemizations on expenses, you can just scrape it all into we're doing ministry for the church. 1 (15m 44s): And that's kind of what we've seen is people just get eaten up by the model, if that makes sense. 2 (15m 50s): Humans can't grow and thrive without accountability. None of us can't. I can't. You like we, we just, we just can't, you know, it's interesting. One thing that we, we've seen Candace is that churches, so they fall in that bucket of not having to file a nine 90. They'll scoop up other nonprofits and then they'll convert those to churches. So then all of a sudden it loses its transparency. And one of the wildest things I would say that, that you've seen, so for Nathan's been working on this for over, over a decade, I came into this with, to partner up with him on it and coming in from the outside in, coming from like the capitalist type world, this, this concept of like having aha moments. 2 (16m 34s): So an aha moment for me was when a hedge fund that managed over $150 billion was registered as a church. 0 (16m 43s): Whoa. 2 (16m 44s): You know what we can do with 150 billion a lot? It's a lot. And it's registered as a church, just absolutely mind blowing. And 0 (16m 52s): So are there requirements to be registered as a church? And I think where this is important is you see a lot of new age religion kind of reemerging or emerging, and they're kind of doing what I saw. I think when it's in the Christian category, what is it? It's called like prosperity gospel. Yeah, yeah. And you see that with like the whole like abundance and the secret and that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of parallels there. So what is the requirement? Can I say that I am a devout follower, follower of the secret and pop up a church and now I don't have to report anything? Or how does that work? 1 (17m 23s): So we, we, I got to sit down with the former chief counsel to the IRS in Washington DC on religious tax exemption. So you're talking about the head lawyer in the US that understands the entire religious sector. Like this is the smartest guy in the US on this topic. And he goes, Nathan, we cannot define a church because of separation of church and state in the us We cannot put a definition on paper. And so that's why you have the Church of Weed and the Church of the Sun and the church. You could start a church for the church of the lizard. Gods like the, the IRS in the federal government cannot tell you what you can and can't worship. 1 (18m 4s): So, right. This is the rabbit hole. The rabbit hole is so deep. So you're like, okay, if you can't define a church, how do you classify a religious organization? And they have something called the 14 point checklist. It's 14 items that if you just check off some of them you are a church and those are, you don't have 0 (18m 23s): To meet all 14. You 1 (18m 24s): Don't have to meet all 14. Nope. And then there's something that's more recently been called, it's called the associational test mainly. 'cause I think the, I, the i I know the IRS doesn't have enough staff to actually oversee all these churches. And and you made a great point earlier about Christians love a good persecution story. Like they're always feeling like they're being persecuted. And so the IRS is very, is very gentle with that. Like I'm very impressed with the IRS actually 'cause I was raised Republican, you know, gun toten by Christian non-denominational Christian. Yeah. And I was always super, ah, the IRS is out to get everybody, but I sit with these guys and gal and I'm like, they're actually good people for the most part. And they want to, they wanna protect religious freedom in the us. 1 (19m 6s): So it was very reassuring for me to see that. But yes, since they can't define a church, they have to rely on the associational test or the 14 point checklist. And if you look at both of them, it's basically you need to come together to worship at least once a month under a unified creed in a physical building. And there needs to be leadership at the top. If you check those four boxes, your church. So technically in the studio we could, this is our building. This is the three of us are the congregation. And then what's our creed? I wanna worship Candace's podcast. So we're the Church of Candace podcast. And we at right now, we don't even have to ask the IRS this is what's crazy. 1 (19m 51s): I can walk into a bank with these notes jotted down with my social security number and get a bank account in an EIN number for my church. Candace 4 (19m 59s): Just got a tax free ride here. There we 1 (20m 1s): Go. You know? And, and now let's go to the secular nonprofit side. A secular nonprofit has to, it's a 10, I can't remember the file name, but they have to file a document with the IRS asking for nonprofit tax exemption. They have to prove their missions. You have to, it's a very rigorous process. So for a secular nonprofit to get that tax exempt status takes upwards of two years. And ca and like legal lawyers and everything drafting this, we could just start a church today called the Candace podcast and walk into a bank and start accepting donations. I had 0 (20m 34s): No idea. Is that easy? 1 (20m 36s): The only difference, yeah. The only downfall is you wouldn't be able to give your donors a tax write-off receipt because the IRS does not know your entity exists. So you won't get the really big ticket donors, you know, giving you hundreds of thousands of dollars is a write off. But if you're a good enough salesperson, if you're smooth enough, if you've, if you've got the vision, you can get a lot of smaller donors to come on board and give you a lot of money. 0 (20m 58s): So is it harder to be recognized by the government as a church or 1 (21m 2s): No. You'd literally just say, church of Candace podcast. You, you file your application and you're good. But yeah. Whereas not, whereas secular nonprofits have a rigorous uphill battle to be tax exempt churches just automatically get it. Because you're a quote unquote church. 2 (21m 16s): There's over, it's estimated there's 400,000. Is that the right number? 400,000 churches in the United States. 0 (21m 23s): And they're like all different kinds of religions or just Christian 1 (21m 27s): Or all different, any, including 0 (21m 29s): Temples and everything. 1 (21m 30s): Yeah. So the, the, the government sees that as the, the, we, we call 'em avatars in the Show. 'cause the, the IRS doesn't know a lot of them exist as you drive by the, the street and you see church of, you know, Wilmington or Church of Florida or Church of Miami or Church of Chris. You know, you're like, oh, there's a church. So you can see it. But if, if that person was in the IRS and they opened up their laptop, it'd just be an avatar to them. 'cause they've never seen any documentation about that church. 2 (21m 56s): One. Well, I, a total, I mean, but so many things are considered churches. So there's a pastor in North Texas, it's got the whole private jet all that. His, his the home he lives in 18,000 square feet. It would be about $160,000 a year in taxes. It's registered in then the church 0 (22m 19s): As like a holding. So they're allowed to do that. 1 (22m 22s): It's a housing, it's a housing pastor housing that, 2 (22m 25s): Yeah. 0 (22m 25s): There's no cap on that. 1 (22m 27s): No cap. Nah. Well, a lot of people will argue There is, but there's not. No, because it's basically like if I'm a big enough pastor and my CPA is a good CPA, he'd be like, oh, Nathan is basically a huge celebrity in Texas. Got it. So he should be able to live like Oprah Winfrey. And then the IRS goes, okay, that's standard of living. Like he's a big name. Yeah. You know, he's a celebrity. He deserves that house. 0 (22m 49s): So separation of church and state, obviously very important to have. But did it, where did the tie to money come in? Because yes, no one should be able to tell you who to worship. How to worship. Right. Those, that's crucial. But it didn't mean to have a hedge fund of 150, was it? Billion hundred 50 million billion. Yeah. Right. When it's what a hundred million dollars can swing a company one way or another. So if you're not making that filing and saying, I saw this one church, I don't know which one it was, but they basically, in order to skip filing, what is it called? I wrote it down. It's like a 13 f filing, which is if you have over a hundred million dollars, you have to disclose that because you can swing a company. So they created like 20 different shell companies. 0 (23m 30s): The 1 (23m 30s): Church of Jesus Christ, of everyday saints. Was 0 (23m 32s): That what was crazy? Yeah. So I don't think that that's what anyone meant when they said separation of church and spirit. Correct. 1 (23m 38s): Yeah. You gotta go all the way back to the founding of America. Right. And what I'm, I'm gonna get political here 'cause this is, this really rubs my, like, grinds my gears. But you have, you have certain people saying America's a inherently a Christian nation. And sure the founding fathers used biblical principles of equality and, you know, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to, that's baked into our constitution. But they were never, they were very cognizant about not calling out a specific deity. They didn't say Christ, you know, they said under God, they used very specific language about a God. But when you look at the early church, or I'm sorry, the early, early America, the denominational structures were killing each other. 1 (24m 25s): Quakers were ge Quakers were getting their tongues born out. They were being burned at the stake in early America because quote unquote, you know, the Protestants in bi and Baptist in particular were like, this is our country. Mm. And so they were killing other Christians. And so America was, people don't realize was about to like go down a very dangerous road before it was even founded. And so a guy named Roger Williams created a plantation called Providence in Rhode Island. And Providence was a safe haven for anybody that wanted to like practice their own religion. And he was very, very focused on America being a country with freedom of religion and freedom from religion. 1 (25m 5s): 'cause he saw what was happening. He's like, these amazing Quakers are being burned at the stake alive because their theology is different than yours. Yeah. And so America people are, the early founding of America is very interesting in that regard. But, so you have separation of church and state churches. Were, were, were actually the first, some of the first institutions to, to collect taxes because in early America there was no tax structure or government structure. And so people trusted the church. So they're like, Hey, our church can collect taxes and disperse money better than, than John Smith down the street. You know? And so, but as, as everybody pushed west, there was no physical church to, to go worship in. 1 (25m 48s): You carried your, your King James Bible in your, you know, covered wagons and you pushed across the plains and you'd read it and you'd read to a group of people and no one was collecting money. There was no, there was no overhead, so to speak. And then once America fully gets settled, you know, institutional churches start popping up. And so really until the Civil War, no, no churches really asked for money. Tithing disappeared in America. Like you look through the literature and there's very few references on any Christian churches like demanding money or, or referencing the tithes that we talked about in the Old Testament. But then the Civil War happens, everybody's poor. And these churches are like, dude, we we're outta money. Like no one's giving us anything anymore. 1 (26m 29s): What do we do? And so they opened up the Bible and unfortunately they went back to the mosaic laws and someone was like, Hey, this says to give me 10%. And so boom, after the Civil War, tithing spikes in America again. And it's never throttled off again. And so when you look at the religious organizations in the nonprofit sector, though, it wasn't until 1913 that it was actually defined. And so Congress passed income tax in 1913 and they defined the nonprofit sector back then. There was about 12,000 of them. And this is a big part of the Show. Those 12,000 organizations were secular nonprofits in churches. And they were working in local communities, really caring for the local people. 1 (27m 11s): And so Congress said, man, these, these organizations need to be protected 'cause they're helping the needy, the poor, everything we can't do in these small communities they're doing, so they should not pay taxes. So it's 1913, there's 12,000 of 'em. It's called social capital. The churches and nonprofits are building social capital in these small communities. So okay, flash forward 110 years, or 111 years, there's now 1.8 million nonprofits. And very, I don't wanna say very few of them, the majority of them don't focus on their local community anymore. They don't care about social capital. They, they're looking global. So big pastors and churches are looking global. Big nonprofits are, oh, we're doing such good work, you know, all the way in Africa. 1 (27m 54s): So you'll never see what we're doing. But as the local community deteriorates and that social capital here deteriorates, these nonprofits and churches are still leveraging laws from 112 year, 111 years ago. If so, if that makes sense. So the, the system and legal structure hasn't caught up. And so it's just so now with technology, really smart businessmen and women just move in and they're abu abusing loopholes and abusing just archaic laws and legal structures. 0 (28m 24s): So do you think that there should be a requirement that a certain amount, that a, it's transparent, everything is reported and just crystal clear for not only the people that are going to the church, but to the government itself and that a certain amount has to go and be infused into the local community? Or is that like a, a breach of that separation? 2 (28m 42s): No, that's a, that's a, that's a great question. I think when we were looking at this from a a solution standpoint, we are, we asked ourselves, all right. 'cause that was one of the big things when he and I agreed to do this together, was that we are gonna be unpacking large history. We're gonna be exposing a lot of issues and loopholes, but we need to, we're gonna engage with the community to come up with a solution. We're not just gonna like, create a storm and not do something about it. So we're working on a solution and looking at the solution, it's how can we find solutions to all these loopholes that we see that does not bring the government into it because they will screw it up. 2 (29m 25s): And it's like, I mean, they can't manage $5 trillion, like let alone get their hands on more money to, to, to do the things they continue to do with it. It's gotta get flipped upside down. And there has to be transparency and accountability, but in a way in in which transparency and accountability becomes your fundraising. Like, people are highlighted because they're transparent and accountable. So we're creating a software system that's gonna, that's, that's gonna do that. Another, another element to that is so many 1 (29m 58s): Uhs, 2 (29m 59s): So many nonprofits exist and they have these missions of solving global issues, but those global issues don't get solved because it goes back to the human will human, they get into this, the money's there, and next thing you know, a do $1 out of every a hundred dollars goes to impact and the social issues don't get solved. So until we actually put the power back into the donor's hands and the donor's able to make an educated decision, to me that is the foundational way to, to solve this, to actually know where your money's going to actually be aligned morally. And, you know, everyone has different passions. So actually be able to engage with the nonprofits because there's a massive communication breakdown. 2 (30m 44s): You donate your money and it's like, oh, I just wanna make sure I get the, and this is human, right? Like, I wanna make sure I get the, the, the, the form to turn into the IRS and count it as a write off. Right? And statistically speaking, only 3% of people who donate actually follow up with a nonprofit to see where the money goes. And so it, it shouldn't have to be a let's go follow up. The data should be there for you in a very convenient way. The same way you get your news and information on your phone. 1 (31m 15s): Well, I think one thing that, that we're really passionate about is we're not here to like present solutions that we think the, the, the nonprofit needs to focus on the local social issues or we think X, Y, and Z we're here just to expose the loopholes and then, like Chris said, provide a tangible solution. But all we care about is educating the, the donors, if you know specific, like we have great, we have great messages, like hundreds of messages where people are like, Hey, I never knew to even ask this question. So I walked up to my pastor and asked him after a sermon and he went white, like gray in the face. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, so you, so all we're, all we need to do is educate people. 1 (31m 56s): What was the question? It was, do you take a housing study? But so it's, you know, so I think if we can, if we angle, so one of my, I would call him a mentor, he lives in Madrid. He, he works, he's worked in over 150 countries in, in the nonprofit sector. And all he focuses on is education. So he works, people are gonna love this. He, he used to work for George Ros's NGO in the nineties and two thousands. But back then, whether you, whether you like George or not, like his nonprofit was doing amazing things, especially in the AIDS crisis. And this gentleman was on the front lines in Africa and, and he's like, Nathan, the reason why we solved the AIDS crisis is we didn't come in with our ideas of an answer. 1 (32m 43s): We went in and we saw who was actually helping these poor sick people, sometimes infants, you know, with aids. And we realized it's, it's these, these caregivers that we need to educate no one else. And people were spending hundreds of millions of dollars on these academic papers and, you know, really high and like hoity-toity answers. And he goes, we just made really grungy like simple videos like with scripts read by local caregivers. And we circulated those videos and they never knew I was even involved, but we just educated people where they were at. And that's what was really like the way we solved the AIDS crisis was through local on the ground education. 1 (33m 26s): So that's our goal with the Show. Like we wanna locally educate the donor. 'cause then they're gonna stick it to the man up the upstairs for lack of a better term and say, you know what? I don't need to tithe. Like, your, your answer to why I should give you 10% doesn't actually add up. Like I should be a generous giver, but I'm gonna give it over here where, you know, that single mother who's struggling is, is gonna benefit from this or that homeless vet or, you know, there's, they'll, they, there's a plenty a long list of, or you know, the kids dying of tuberculosis and malaria in Africa. That's where I want my donor dollars to go. And so if we educate properly, people are gonna, well, when we educate properly and we give them a a, a helpful tool, they're gonna solve their, they're gonna know what to, how to solve the problems. 1 (34m 9s): We don't need to tell people how to solve it. 2 (34m 11s): So we were talking earlier about the $890 billion number, so that's globally in Christianity. And then another 530 plus billion in the US is donated to secular nonprofits. So you're like 1.4 plus trillion plus the 5 trillion the US manages and we have all these social issues that aren't being resolved. There's no reason why people should be dying of tuberculosis and malaria. There's no reason why kids should be starving. So why haven't we solved solve these issues? And that's a like a, I don't know, there's a short answer to that. I mean, it always goes back to humans are human, there's accountability and and such. 2 (34m 54s): But I mean, if you are a nonprofit and your mission is to eradicate malaria, 0 (35m 0s): But isn't that part of the problem too? Because then you build up this entire system that requires money now and then it's like, well if we solve the problem, then you have to get rid of the system. And then what do I do after this problem is solved? 2 (35m 12s): Yeah. Your identity's tied into that and then you've been living off of it. Right. 1 (35m 16s): But if you were confident, you'd say, Hey, I'm super excited to actually pivot my organization or shut the organization down and go solve this other problem. Right. You know, and I think Elon Musk's, you know the story better than me. 2 (35m 28s): Yeah. So this is hysterical. So in 2021, this development economist that worked for the UN trying to, trying to mess with Elon, and it's like Elon, for $6 billion, you could solve world hunger. And you know, and I, I laugh when I hear that. I'm like, okay, well we can't do it with the 5 trillion Yeah. Or the 1.4 trillion that we get in. But let's, let's pick on Elon here with 6 billion. So Elon responds back and says, and this is when it was called Twitter on the Twitter thread, and said, if you can articulate to me on this thread how we're gonna solve world hunger with the 6 billion, I'll sell my Tesla stock tomorrow and I'll fund it on one condition, open source accounting that the public can view dead. 2 (36m 16s): Right. Whoa. Yeah. Like if you really can't solve world hunger for whatever dollar amount that is, 6 billion, a lot of people say 40 billion a year. But did you get to ask yourself the tough questions? 40 billion a year, how much that 40 billion actually goes to feed people? 0 (36m 32s): And isn't the problem too with food insecurity that most of it's politically driven. Yeah. 1 (36m 37s): Do that. I would say most of the social problems are politic. Global social problems are politically driven. Yeah. 2 (36m 42s): Yeah. Humans. 1 (36m 43s): Yeah. Humans. 0 (36m 44s): Humans human. 1 (36m 45s): Yeah, exactly. But it's, I, it's, it's so funny to me it's, it, I think the common person wants, would love to see these problems solved. You know, and that's what we're trying to do is we're trying to, from a religious perspective, especially Christian Church, Christian pastors love to praise America and praise democracy. And I say democracy and then everybody on line's like, you idiot, it's a republic. And yes, it's like, I know that, but, but I'm talking about the structure. But everybody like love in the churches love to say America. America, you know, Christian, Christian nation. Well, when you look at democracy and you look at the structure, it's the people have the power and the leadership are servants of the people. 1 (37m 26s): So if Christian institutions love democracy, their model, their institutional model should be democratic. But it's reversed. All the power sits in a select few hands. No. Especially as the in, as the institution gets bigger, you're talking about churches with a hundred, 200, $300 million a year budgets. The LDS church budget is like seven, 7 billion. So, and all that money is managed by, you know, anywhere from three to 10 people. And then where does all that money come from? The thousands. And for the LDS church, millions of people that attend your church and that are members. So, okay. 1 (38m 6s): It, it's, it's not democracy at all. You're demanding money. Demanding money, usually through threatening salvation or the video we posted today. 2 (38m 14s): Oh, we gotta we gotta we gotta touch on that one 1 (38m 16s): In a second. But, you know, you, you give your tithes to avoid burning in hell. And so it, it's coercion sometimes. Wow. It's, it's, it's straight demand, but then all that money flows up the chain and sits in the top. And those, that single elder board or that single board of directors, and usually sometimes in the nondenominational space that one pastor or the pastor and his wife get to dictate where sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars go. And so churches are literal authoritarian structures. Mm. And and it's only getting worse as, as denominations are dying in non-denominational is exploding. 2 (38m 53s): But the system, the big system, the governmental system, like it's again, it's a loophole that, that enables them to correct. To be 1 (39m 1s): That way. So it's how do you, how do you stop gap those loopholes without government intervention? 'cause no matter how many people on social media yell at us saying, you guys, we, we, we, someone said, you're a government psyop yesterday. And I was like, wow. I'm like, 0 (39m 15s): You're being a suit and yeah, I don't think so. Yeah. 1 (39m 18s): I'm like, really? I'm a government op. 0 (39m 20s): Usually you can find a fed pretty easy. 1 (39m 21s): Yeah. I'm like, maybe I am. I don't 2 (39m 22s): Know. You're doing a good job. Psyching people out now. Where's 1 (39m 24s): My camera? I'm a government siop. But yeah, it's, so, it's just funny how people see, you know, bringing solutions and, and bringing accountability to things is a, is a threat. And it's usually the ones that we're threatening are making money off the system. 0 (39m 37s): So do you find that the non-denominational churches are worse? Like these, are they, are they the mega churches or Yeah. Is there a specific denomination? Like 2 (39m 47s): One of those? So like the, or like the organized, the traditional, like the Presbyterian, the Baptist, the Catholics, there's a lot more governance involved in that. They have a lot more like corporate, corporate overhead and accountants and lawyers and structure. Whereas like the, a lot of these churches, I mean many of the many family members are, are the board members, right? 1 (40m 7s): Yeah. Non-denominational started taking off in the Billy Graham era, you know, and if you know who Billy Graham is, he's a, you're one of the first people I've ever met that doesn't know. I know 0 (40m 16s): I cognize the north. 1 (40m 18s): Yeah, yeah. Samaritan's Purse here in North Carolina. BGEA. He's got three nonprofits here and one church and a few jet 2 (40m 26s): A few 1 (40m 26s): Points. But, but so non-denominational really took off with him. And he was kind of the, the first, let's call it international evangelist TV evangelist. And, you know, so he's, he was on stage with multiple presidents. He, he is kind of the face of, I would say American evangelical Christianity. And it was because of him, he kind of simplified the salvation prayer. He, he, he basically 0 (40m 57s): Oh yeah, yeah. 1 (40m 58s): Commoditized and commercialized a lot of the more, you know, personal elements of Christianity. But after him, non-denominational exploded. And basically non-denominational churches are their own entity. So there is no outside oversight like denominations have. There is no, some of 'em will partner up, but it's like, it's the wild west. It's all based on the char the charisma of the lead pastor. So like I said, if you're a good speaker, good looking, funny, articulate, if you're a good businessman, you can, you can launch a very successful non-denominational church. And then you have, you have no accountability. No oversight. 2 (41m 37s): Going back to the, the, the charismatic pastor speaking, what, what was the on on the video we posted today about like, tithing to make sure you are enrolled on God's list? 1 (41m 51s): Oh yeah, yeah. If you tithe. Well, well, so that's the LDS church. That's the, that's the church. Jesus Christ, church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints. Yeah. But yeah, in the, in their theo in their, in their doctrines, if you don't tithe your 10%, you fall off basically God's Rolodex and you can't get into heaven. 2 (42m 11s): Yeah. The words he used in this, in this sermon, if you will, is you'll be unenrolled un 1 (42m 18s): Unenrolled from the book of God or something like that. 2 (42m 20s): And you will not be protected from the vengeance. 1 (42m 24s): From the 2 (42m 24s): Vengeance. I mean, you talk about like manipulation and it, if you look at like the, like capital markets just in general, fear is instilled in two people. People panic and then that drives their decisions. So I'm gonna be removed from, I'm gonna be unenrolled as God's child, and then after that, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be protected from vengeance. So it's people freak out and they're like, oh my gosh, take my money. Do are, do they ask for, they they've, I've I've heard this before. They ask for people's w twos. 1 (42m 57s): Yeah. They ask for your tax returns. Yeah, yeah. To make sure you're not lying. 0 (43m 1s): Whoa. Yeah. 1 (43m 1s): But then the kicker is that that organization that you brought up that has, you know, over a hundred million in, in each account they had, they have almo, they have amassed 160 billion now. But no one knew that the church was in, in the the LDS church. We covered this in a big way in the Show because it's very interesting. But the LDS church lied to the SEC and then they lied to their congregants. And so even though they're demanding a W2, gimme your W2 so I can make sure you're not lying. They're openly lying to everybody at the same time. And so one, the sad thing that I see is, is churches have become the epitome of what they preach. You should not be. 1 (43m 41s): And that's the saddest part of 2 (43m 43s): It all. What was it? What was the, I'm not sure if it was a policy, it just might have been a, like a, like just a, a type of sermon where it was the first few years you do this, it's mandatory and then after that it becomes a gift. 1 (43m 57s): Yeah. You realize that you want to give us your money, it's a gift. It's painful at first, but then, then you really start liking giving to us. 0 (44m 4s): Yeah. I saw a bunch of clips where they're like, if you are accustomed to $10, try 20. Yeah. What about 80? Yeah. How about a hundred? Make make yourself feel it. And you're like, what if that person can can't feed their kids and you're guilting them because you are giving them false promises of guaranteed abundance that if you sow this seed of a hundred dollars, you're gonna get 2,500. And this one pastor was saying like, they were doing reviews basically from these, these tides or these planting of the seeds. They're like, how do you know that? That they didn't just like make that up. And like, for sure, you know, Tammy from Ohio, she did this. Yeah. And you can too. I don't know. I feel like it's the same thing. And I get picked on all the time when people say, they ask me what my, I guess faith is, and I just say spiritual. 0 (44m 45s): They're like, oh, make it up as you go. I was like, I don't know that this other thing is a lot better. Is any different? I'm not sure. There's a lot of parallels. And I think when it comes to like labeling yourself spiritual, it's like I hold myself accountable and I'm certainly not like amassing all of this wealth and manipulating people and all of like, I don't know. I think I'm doing pretty good and with my non label label. 1 (45m 9s): Well, so that's an interesting concept because Christianity's like plummeting in the US and at the, but at the same time, spirituality is, is pacing it. And so people aren't losing this idea of faith or spirituality, they're just over the institutions. And this is what's so backwards to me is, is when I talk to pa like big pastors or even online, I'm like, do you guys not see that it's your model? That might be the problem. Yeah. You know, like maybe take a slice of humble pie, you know, read about humility in your Bible and then sit down and be like, have we missed the mark? Are we doing something wrong? Because everybody's leaving us, but their faith and spirituality isn't leaving them. 1 (45m 53s): So maybe it's us. And I'm reading this great book in the year of our Lord by Sinclair Ferguson. He's this, I think Scottish theologian, but he blankly he, he can comes out and says it in his book, he goes, Christianity does not lose its members because of outside pressures. It loses its members because of like literally missing the mark and shifting their mission. Yeah. Away from Christ in living a Christ-centered life. 'cause Christ is an awesome dude. Like, you read about him and you're like, this guy was cool. Yeah. Like he cared for everybody, you know, and, and helped. He was focused on the poor, the widowed, like the injured, the, you know, the what do you have the, the guys with the sores back in the day. 1 (46m 34s): Leper, leprosy. Yeah. You know, he, he cared just about the people that were hurting. Like, I wanna hang out with him. But then you look at the church and you go, Ooh, you don't look anything like that guy. And so it's, the church is just eating it, eating itself from the inside out. 2 (46m 48s): A a really good point made me think about this. So one of the elements that we're we're doing is building a community where, where people can have healthy discussions about this. And we've had thousands of people reach out to us. And some of it's pretty heartbreaking. This one, one gentleman reached out to us and he left the church very frustrated. His grandma tied her 10% her entire career. Then she stops working, she gets sick cancer, the institution, the church was not there to help her, but she gave 10% her entire, her entire working career and then get sick. And that's just like, when you hear that kind of stuff, stuff, it's, it's, it's heartbreaking because who's who's, who's gonna take care of people in that situation, everyone kind of like goes points at the government and the government's pointing to these nonprofits, which to your point was this whole thing started the whole point because they were embedded in the community, helping the community. 2 (47m 47s): And then if you look at like, all these problems overseas in the government, so when I lived in North Carolina, I was at the JFK Special Warfare Centers at Fort Bragg and the army, the army Special Operation school for civil affairs. And we would do, you know, all, look at all the budget, all the line items, we'd go into all these different parts of the world to, you know, win hearts and minds over and we're spending all this money. And a lot of it is on like helping them out with some of their social issues. And you look at that and you're like, really? The government's, I mean, I think that this would be a great place for nonprofits to, to, to solve. But we get a lot of the like, oh, and the community, I was the nonprofits, that's why we created 'em. No, no, no. 2 (48m 27s): It's the government, it's the government's job to take care of that. And then meanwhile, you have all these people, you have all the resources in the world, but you have all these innocent people dying for For what? It's sad. 1 (48m 37s): Yeah. 0 (48m 39s): What's interesting to me though is that some of them are like brazenly open about how they're spending their money. Like the one guy, what's it, Copeland? Yeah, Kenneth. Which is crazy. Like maybe this is me being judgmental, but when I first discovered this man and started watching his interviews, I'm like that, wait, 2 (48m 58s): What do you think of the eyes? The eyes, 0 (48m 60s): Yeah. And you say, it's the window to the soul. And I'm like, I'm not comfortable. I'm just not comfortable. And then when he gets agitated, the thing that kind of takes him over, I'm like, if you don't say that, that's a possession. I don't know what is. Yeah. And he's like, well, Jesus wanted me to have Tyler Perry's jet because there are demons on these metal tubes. And he's okay with just saying that and being recorded. And people are like, yeah, he's great. He's, I don't doubt him at all. What did 1 (49m 27s): He, can you guess 2 (49m 28s): It wears on you? 1 (49m 29s): Can you guess what he did before becoming a pastor? 0 (49m 32s): No, 1 (49m 33s): He was a musician in la So when you look at the Kenneth Copeland's and the Joel Osteen's of the world, and do you know who Joel Osteen is? 0 (49m 41s): Yes. My mom was a huge fan. 1 (49m 43s): Okay. So Joel Osteen before he took over Lakewood church in Houston from his, from his deceased dad, he was a TV producer. Mm. So you look at these big charismatic pastor celebrity characters, and before they were pastors, most of them had a career in entertainment. And so especially Joel, Osteen like what did he turn Lakewood into a TV station. Like it's not rocket science. And then he goes, oh God blessed me. I'm like, no, you were just a talented TV producer very, who then got a, a built in revenue stream from your dad's following. So you inherited this, this massive, you know, donation pool and then you just monetized it like you're a genius. 1 (50m 25s): But God, like, I don't think God blessed you, bro. You just Right. Figured out the business model. And then, but the kicker is you can say, God blessed me. And that's a big, big thing too, is this idea of blessing in the Bible. So just like tithing's been abused, this idea of blessing. 'cause Americans, for most Americans, they would, what, what if I blessed you? What, what should I do? Oh, gimme money. It, it's all, we're a consumer and, and we're a consumption based country. We are obsessed with wealth and celebrity. So naturally, if the Bible says the word blessing, it means wealth and celebrity. That's not what it meant when that verse was written 30, you know, 3000 years ago. 0 (51m 5s): Yeah. I saw on your reading list you had the consumer instinct with gad. Sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, our reading list is so similar. Yeah, 1 (51m 12s): That's, yeah. Gad, there's a great list. Gad, I was talking to Gad for the Show Gad, I hope you're listening because he might be gad. I hope you're listening because as soon as I told him what I could pay him, he just never responded. You money driven, 2 (51m 28s): Speaking of all Joel, he got, he took quite, quite a hit. Do you remember when Hurricane Harvey hit Houston? Are you familiar with that? With that, like, I 0 (51m 37s): Couldn't believe it and I was sure. So I was absolutely certain that he was gonna lose everything because of this miscalculation. So you have all of these displaced people because of the hurricane. And he's like, I can't let 'em in. Just redid the carpets. Yeah. I'm like, excuse me, what are you talking about? And then there was this guy, I think his name is Mattress 2 (51m 56s): Mac, right? 0 (51m 56s): Yeah. And he's like, I'm gonna show up. I'm gonna feed you. I'm gonna provide furniture. Like what do you need in 2 (52m 1s): His furniture store? Right. His products right. That he sells at a for-profit. I'm gonna let you come in here and use that. Unbelievable. 1 (52m 8s): Well, so that's a big note. So someone on our, on our recent post that we did, 'cause we were talking about the, the real estate loopholes. Oh yeah. And now, you know, the, the LDS church is the largest private landowner now in Illinois and Florida. Wow. And so you're like, wow, you're the pri biggest private landowner in two states of America and they don't pay property tax on that property. So the three of us pay property tax every year to the government. But where I'm going with that is this guy was like, well, religious organizations and nonprofits do way more good than the for-profit sector in regards to helping people. And I'd actually argue they don't anymore. 1 (52m 49s): Like for-profit companies like Patagonia and Cotopaxi, like they've become B Corps. Right, exactly. And it's like for-profit companies who are technically like the scourge of capitalism are doing more now in giving the majority of their profits back to their beneficiary. And then, but even then, you know, you look at for-profit companies and the way they're trying to raise up minority voices and they're trying to do things in their community, it's like whether you agree with their moves or not, they're at least activating in their social communities. Again, nonprofits and churches have just owned for at least big churches, let me rephrase that. Nonprofits and 0 (53m 26s): Like the mega 1 (53m 27s): Churches, content focused churches don't care about their local community anymore. That's a very bold statement to make. But they really don't. And it's the small community or the small community driven churches. And this is what's cool is we've, we've actually had a number in the Show, a congregant number that's, that shows the tipping point of when you stop focusing on your local community and you have to look at scale because your overhead grows too much now. But so small nonprofits and small churches are, are doing amazing work in their local communities. But the big boys, they poor profit companies do way more than than the big nonprofits in the big, the big churches. 0 (54m 3s): Yeah. And I'm sure at some point, yes, like you have your overhead increase and like you do have to have your outreach grow, but then at some point it kind of go inverts in a way to where you have this surplus. So you should be able to kind of circle back and go back to your point of origin because you have, I don't know what church it is, maybe you'll know, it's in northern Texas and it's one of the mega churches and they say like two blocks down from this mega church. It is just lots of homeless people. Lots of addicts, just like a lot of poverty. Meanwhile for a Christmas service, you have Jesus coming in on the cables and a full band and fireworks. Maybe they went to that service. Well they, that guy just wants some water and a sandwich. Yeah. And maybe someplace to stay for tonight. Like maybe Jesus doesn't need to fly in on the cables. 0 (54m 45s): I don't know. Yeah. 1 (54m 46s): I don't know if it's the same church that we're talking about, but I, I, the, I probably three years ago I went to a mega church in north Texas just to get the feel for it. And I parked my rental car in the parking lot and it's the church's parking lot and there's, there's homeless people right across the street and there's, I could, I could see cameras, you know, looking at the parking lot and it's a gated, you have to go through a gate and everything. I go to the service, I walk in, I grab a donut and a cup of coffee of course. And, and they have podiums like first, second, and third place so you can get your photo taken standing on the first place podium in front of the step and repeat of the church, which I thought was hilarious. Wow. So I go into the church service, you know, it's, it's ironically, it's not even the pastor. So they have a band playing and then I'm watching a projection of the pastor. 1 (55m 28s): So it's not even his main building, it's not his main campus. It's a satellite campus. And so I walk outside, I get in my rental car and I'm like, okay, that was interesting. And I go to fire up my rental car and it's like, blah. I'm like, what the heck? So I look under and someone had cut out the catalytic converter of my rental car. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. So I go, they know you. What's that? Did they know who you are? No, no. I was, before we started shooting for the, for the Show. So I walked back in and I'm like, Hey, who can I talk with? Like my catalytic converter just got cut out. I know my insurance gun company is gonna wanna see the, the footage. And they're like, email, you know, this person? So I sent an email that day and I'm like, Hey, I had to get this rental car towed. Like can you give your, I know there's cameras, security cameras. 1 (56m 11s): Can I get the footage and give it to my insurance company? Crickets. Don't hear from 'em. So I send another email like two weeks later. Crickets. Don't hear from 'em. Keep sending 'em emails. 'cause I'm like, this is ridiculous. They never respond. And so this is in the Show. So finally I'm like, you know what, let's send 'em another email from another email address. And I'm like, dear Mrs. Such and such, my name is such and such. I went to your church this morning. I live out of town. I would love to send you guys a gift. You guys did so much. How can I give money to your church within four hours? Boom. They responded as telling me multiple places I could give. Wow. And so it just shows the, like, I laughed 'cause I'm like, well, there's their focus. They don't care if someone needs help. They care if you wanna give 'em money though. 1 (56m 53s): And so that's kind of the, the, the gist of that is the machine's expensive to run? 0 (56m 58s): Are they obligated to, so like, let's say a crime happens, would they be obligated to disclose camera footage because of the separation at church and state? 1 (57m 7s): I don't 5 (57m 8s): Get, I think they could get subpoenaed for that. 1 (57m 10s): Yeah. But it's a catalytic converter that no one's gonna go after that. But we, we talk about a story of a, a very sad story of a TV network that's registered as a church. And we sat down with the, the founder's son who's middle aged now. And, and he used to work for the studio and his daughter got raped by a camera operator at the, at the quote unquote church, which was a TV network. And they did not bring the police in. Wow. Because the founder said that giving would drop if the story got out. So they did not report a rape. And the rapist was never convicted because giving giving would, 0 (57m 53s): Can you tell people how they can support you timelines anywhere to find you All that good stuff? Like plug away. Yeah. 5 (57m 60s): The biggest way to support us is, so there's a few different ways. If you're a, a church, a nonprofit and want to, and want to connect and talk, talk about like the the solution side of things, please DM us. Best way to get ahold of us is, is on Instagram. Since we have permanently Banned from TikTok and just d DM us, I would also The Religion Business website. And the biggest thing is, is we need help spread, spread the word, like share, repost the content and get involved, get engaged in the dialogue and conversation. 'cause we're really trying to build a community that's a safe place for people to, to talk about this. 5 (58m 41s): And you don't have to agree with us, it's fine. Disagree with us all you want, but like, let's have the discussion. It's another thing people are really afraid to talk. Like if there's a perceived disagreement, like we're not gonna get along with. 6 (58m 55s): This was part one of the episode. Hope you enjoyed it. Stay tuned for part two.