This week best selling author Marek Zmyslowski joins the podcast. We talk about the inspiration behind his best selling book Chasing Black Unicorns, how he went from Poland to South Africa, and how he found himself to be an international fugitive.
Marek takes us on his journey of self growth through reflection, psycho therapy, and psychedelics. Marek has such a powerful story of business gone bad, which led to some pretty incredible things.
If you want to learn more about Marek or his powerful nonprofit visit https://www.chasingblackunicorns.com
Support the show (http://patreon.com/candicehorbacz)
0 (0s): <inaudible> hello everybody. You're listening to Chatting with Candice. I'm your host Candice Horbacz. Before we get started on this week's episode, if you want to support the podcast, you can go to Chatting with candice.com and sign up for our Patrion account. You get early access to episodes, live AMH, a bonus content, and it helps us to continue podcasting this week. I'm really excited. We have Mary <inaudible> joining the conversation. He is a best selling author of the book. Chasing Black Unicorns, it's a cautionary tale of a business partnership gone wrong. How he became an International Fugitive and it's filled with a lot of practical business advice. 0 (44s): America is also an Impact Entrepreneur and he's doing his best to solve some the world's greatest problems. We had a really good conversation about accountability, introspection and his wild ride. I hope you enjoy the conversation. If you want to support Merrick or learn more about him, you can go to Chasing Black unicorns.com and I'll provide the link in the show notes. Enjoy the episode. <inaudible> thank you for joining the podcast. So you are the author of Chasing Black Unicorns you are from Poland ended up in Nigeria. You're now in the Dominican Republic. So do you guys to kind of want to explain to the listeners how your book came about the inspiration behind it? 0 (1m 28s): What got you from Poland to Nigeria and just like a little bit of your background. 1 (1m 32s): So Paul is born and raised, made my first so called money. And then you also want my money during the 2008 crisis ended up was a bartender and that at some point I had this crazy idea or a screw. It I'm moving to Africa because If Alibaba is so big in China. And Amazon is so huge in the States Africa needs its own Amazon. So there was this team of crazy guys on the investment fund and he moved to Nigeria in 2012, and we ended up building a business called Jamia, which landed on New York stock exchange last year. So that was like an amazing adventure with so many crazy stories cause of your essential from scratch eCommerce business and in countries like Nigeria or Pena, the internet penetration was super low. 1 (2m 18s): There were no logistics companies. There were no warehouses. So our own infrastructure and a lot of crazy learnings came out of it. That was extremely business wise, positive of adventure, but also in the process, I got myself into some deep s**t, basically another business I lounge, I opened it with the people that I should never open a business with. Unfortunately is a pretty popular scheme cause of the countries like Nigeria, where the local partner at some point is the site's to get through each of the foreign investor. And there are many ways to do that. And one way is to Black Nigerian for you to put you into a jail. And on the, after you give them back to the company, giving them you will be released. And that's basically what's happened to me. 1 (2m 58s): I decided go the hard way, meaning book for years, and now the first foreigner and the history of Nigeria or that. And when that was the money and that was the craziest negative adventure, all the stress went with it. And I figured, Oh, this is actually a, a, an interesting story to combine because I can write a book that doesn't only have some interesting business insights for people interested in business in Africa, but there's also some criminality and, you know, some action, action movie type of clouds because of what happened to me in the, the other parts of my life. So I put this into book Chasing Black Unicorns and in order to make a statement that I'm not doing this for money, we've also launched a charity together with my fiance and all the profits from the sales of the book, as well as in my speaking engagements, because we are living right now, almost 10 years in the Africa. 1 (3m 56s): I realized that the NGLs and the charity care organization's one of the worst thing that's happened two Africa how much bad PR they're bringing in house, how they are mismanaged, I'm going to open to be a super tiny, I know what happens for the money. And that was the way the thing that came out of all those experiences that happened to me. So there wasn't a 62nd, that was like 300 seconds 2 (4m 22s): Is still a really fast to cover, like all of that stuff. So it's pretty common for like that. So I guess the main strategy to get a foreign investor out in, I guess Nigeria is to just get you arrested by the police and like kind of blackmail. Yeah. 1 (4m 36s): Yeah. So context here, there's this amazing organization called the Interpol in the work, which has members from 190 countries, which has a very noble goal. If you're a criminal in one country, you don't just wanna do, we don't want the feminists to move to another country and start fresh, right? But just like with Facebook or Google or a social media or the purpose of building these businesses was amazing is to connect people that we ended up having, you know, same thing with Interpol, just like YouTube or Facebook has this problem that anyone can post anything. And if they don't have the rights to do this, but they don't want to take it down, you know, Black going to Facebook or YouTube is going to take you hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. 1 (5m 20s): And it's going to take you years to do the same problem with Interpol because any country, any police station in any country that is a member of Interpol that has access to the internet and to the Interpol system that can put their local in to the global system and he needed or wanted everywhere. So as long as he can bribe some local, a police officer in Nigeria that will sign something. And then the local judge overnight, you become an International Fugitive anywhere and you'll go. And that's what happened to me. And unfortunately this is a very popular scheme because I had go the rabbit hole, but you really exploring what are the problems with the Interpol? 1 (6m 1s): And you can write books just about internal problems. Just to give you an example, the CEO of Interpol, he was arrested by China, and that was in jail before 2000, I think eight or 10, that word FIFA has dominated to $20 million. So they don't chase their members as to the corruption problem. When Donald Trump bombard that Iran, Iran, government has issued an arrest warrant after Donald Trump, anyone can do this for anyone. And obviously it didn't work for Donald Trump, but cases like MI is more than 20,000 every year in Interpol. And the whole problem is that it's going to take you years or Interpol to analyze your case. 1 (6m 45s): And during those two years, you kind of move your bank's account or frozen. You can't do anything because in the global systems of the banks, you're considered as the premier though, it's designed as destroying your financial situation, your image and so on. And that's when I got this offer, I couldn't refuse. We can solve your problems. We know how to do it. Just have to sign this papers as a company that's that does the internal context. I guess my police block started a blog and I wasn't really aware of what I'm about to fight with, but I just said, no, no, not at all. Like, I'm going to give you the complaint for the last couple of years and I'm going to fight this in the end. 1 (7m 27s): It cost me way more money than the company does a head to head to lawyer's from different countries that are specialized in this problems. But I guess it was more than just money. And he goes about proving something then to be honest, cause I had to spend a night in jail and I went through all the stages of grief during that night in jail. I think one of the most important moments in my life at one point, I just told myself, if I get out of this life, I can write a book about it. And that the concept of being able to share my story was a pretty strong motivation. Because through those two years there a couple of moments where I felt I lost you on the extradition request was almost granted. 1 (8m 8s): And I felt I'm going to Nigeria going to get out of there. And I was depressed. I had to start doing psychotherapy even did iOS got to try to find some spiritual meanings. And the concept of writing the book was also like finishing this chapter of my life, which was very important from the psychotherapy aspect as well. Cause I was ready to let go everything that's happened. And thank God that ended with the happy end, which has not always the case in situations like this. 3 (8m 39s): That's so fascinating. And so you grew up in Poland I think your father was a soldier. Your mother was a school teacher. Okay. And then you went from there to an entrepreneur to an International Fugitive and said, let's go back to the beginning. Like when did you know you wanted to start your own companies? When did you know you wanted to work for yourself? Like at what point in your childhood did you it's something click and to think, I remember you saying you don't want to be limited by the place of your birth and one of the other podcasts that you were on, you know, what led to that thought process? What led to that mindset. 1 (9m 12s): But I don't think it makes sense when you look at it from hindsight, right? But, but then you were just driven by different types of motivations. I was born in the super, super tiny. My mum was a teacher. My father was a soldier. They were getting paid by the government, but I had family in Germany and I could see how they are leaving versus how I am leaving. And they were sending to me chocolates from Germany because we couldn't just talk to us because we were, we were being very humble in a way. And then my mom being my mom being very strict, I was like 14 or 15. She told me I'm going to help you choose your job. You're good at mathematics. So you will, you will go to studies, to university to become a teacher. 1 (9m 55s): I will help you find a job. As a teacher in my school, my father will help you build a house and there's this cool guy on the streets. And that can be your wife. Obviously I just wanted to get out and we had back then satellite television. So I could watch again, those beautiful movie clips of just, you know, kids having enjoying their life in California. Right. And here I am, Poland in December when it's raining or snowing all the time, all I wanted to do is to get out. And then it's also very important in business later, I was pretty bullied in high school, not the high school anymore because I would just have all those chocolates that I go back from Germany. 1 (10m 37s): And that lack of self esteem would really made me extremely motivated later on business. You know, I'm more of something I can make money. And obviously, but then I remember because how, how controlled I was by my mother, which I really love, but she was very controlling. I hate it to be told what to do. And I just couldn't imagine working for someone. I don't even remember a situation when you buy something online and the eCommerce shop tells you to open an account and then you have to create a password. 1 (11m 23s): And he tells you that the password has to have one copy though, that there was one special with a sign, one number and I'm like, screw you. I'm going to have my own passport, those websites. And that is super important for me. And I felt that freedom can be given to you when you're in Entrepreneur, which is b******t. But that's another story. 3 (11m 43s): Very true. That's cool. So would you say, it sounds like you had a ton of optimism that was like a core belief that you know, this fundamental idea that things are bound to be 1 (11m 55s): A quarter. Is that true? That more of like a muscle that you've had to build, become an entrepreneur or to become a good entrepreneur? You definitely must have be. You must be born with some sort of a DNA and you probably can work on it. I never have a problem with motivation when it's getting hard and everyone has everyone asks me about it. I never have an issue with doc. I have a problem to motivate myself when everything is going well. When you look at my life, my business career and my businesses, it's always a suicide because when it's getting too comfortable, business is going well. I become distressed, relaxed. And when I become relaxed, I don't want to work anymore. 1 (12m 35s): And obviously the nice stuff controlling my company and everything. And when problem happens, that's when I wake up. So I may consider this as a blessing that the harder it gets, the more motivated I am. But the tradeoff is that when it gets very well, I tend to sleep over some problems and even bring myself into new problems simply because of how de-motivated become and lose my guards in business when it's getting to well, when my maybe because my internal satisfaction level is too low. That's what is my problem was I wouldn't say motivate optimum optimism was the main factor, although I probably an inappropriate optimist. 2 (13m 18s): Okay. So I wanted to ask that kind of segwayed into, like, what do you think are, I guess, some, a critical personality traits of life being an entrepreneur, because I feel like we live in this, at least in the States, we live in like a really big hustle culture where it's like, you have to be an entrepreneur and an anything else means that you're a failure. But to me, that's kind of b******t because a lot of people can't be an entrepreneur and they'd be miserable as a, as an entrepreneur, as you said, like, you thought it meant freedom, but really you work way more than the average person you want to be successful. So I guess in your eyes, like what does it take to be successful to start your own company? 1 (13m 55s): I'll always try to run away from questions. Like This probably once worked for one person. Does that work for so many other things, if there'll be taken into account, but if you want to somehow pull, what is most important as an entrepreneur? I guess you feel like you want to change sheets all the time. I like you have to do something new in a slightly, in a slightly different way because you know what we're talking about Entrepreneur is the most important part of being an entrepreneur is that early stage of a company when everything has to be done just by you, if you don't do this stuff, you're a company to a certain level. You are, you're not an entrepreneur. The more you become a manager become a CEO and you stay with their business, the real entrepreneurs or the serial entrepreneurs. 1 (14m 41s): So that at some point they get bored and they just sell the company. They hired someone to do the stuff for them. And they changed their role within the organization. Like you could see, I think the Google guys, right entrepreneurs, like they all cared about is building some cool product. So they just hired a CIO. I want to have fun. Only a few entrepreneurs became a, I guess Jeff Bezos. One of those examples of he grew with the company. So as cheesy as it sounds, I guess Entrepreneur someone that I'm going to give you an example used to be a skater when I was a kid. Now I'm a skate and what's cool about being a skater is every time you're in a office building or you're in a museum in the city, every time you look at stairs, you feel like, Oh, I could kick flip out of this. 1 (15m 30s): There's you could actually, you look at stuff that differently to see an opportunity as a skater, you see an opportunity to do a trick. And in a business, I landed in Nigeria and I could see an opportunity to open a business at every corner because I could see, okay, this is missing here to make some money by solving this problem. And I think that's the that's everything starts with that particular mindset. Then you want to do this on your own. You, you would like when stuff are not organized and you want to somehow put this into some, some mechanism, some structure that becomes this business, I guess she has. 1 (16m 17s): It sounds right. You probably, every coaching book has that. It's not only about seeing the knowledge is also applying because if it was only about having the knowledge, I guess everyone would be a millionaire with the knowledge is how you apply it. So I guess there is no secret there. We just need to see opportunities and everything else is just how you do it then. 2 (16m 36s): So I wanted, I think you have like the Mo one of the most extreme stories of a business partnership gone wrong. I think business partners, it's really hard to navigate for anybody just because you have two individuals with like fundamental different beliefs or goals and visions of the company. And then I think you have really good experience with like, you know, business partners that are filled with friction. So I guess if you were to have another business partner and your next company, like, what's your vetting process? Like how do you make sure that it's going to be a positive relationship for the long run? 1 (17m 9s): Yeah, that's a great example. So my business partner, he was very similar to me because it all started with a classic business conflict between the, you know, main dice in the company. That's the problem. When you look for founders or for, you know, your wife, your husband, you're a part of the relationship. You want to find someone that is similar to you in business, because then you just eat off each other's ideas. You motivate each other. You instantly understand each other. There are almost no conflicts because you guys thinking the same way, but this is veteran's day for the business. 1 (17m 49s): Many times, no one has the writer, you the same things and you don't see the same thing. So many times a business can fail. And also once there was a problem, it just gets immediately ignited because this guy has to be, and this guy has a big ego. In the end. I was This cocky CEO, who that was a little bit unexperienced, a little bit too cocky by thinking I can do everything cause I'm this. And what started as a conflict into a business with my friend turned out into huge ego conflict. When it wasn't about the money anymore, it was about who's right. 1 (18m 30s): And who's gonna show it to anyone around that is observing the conflict, who is the real alpha-male. And the reason why it's turned South his, because he got so agitated with his emotions. And I knew how to, I knew how to press his buttons is that at some point he's a screw. It I'm going to break the law to go after this guy. It could have been me. I just had different, a lot of different breaks. It's just, it just happened that my business partner was in Nigeria may be for too long. He has done stuff like this earlier for someone else. I only learned about his later, but he didn't have a problem to do that. But the same mechanism was driving him and me. It was about the ego and also me going after him not paying the money and not the criminal that was driven by ego as well. 1 (19m 23s): And the reason behind it is that we were just saying, and my business with them or having right now it's that I have chose business partners, which absolutely are my life where I'm strong, got the week. It's extremely painful in the very beginning to find a way to work with each other. You don't catch each other's ideas and you don't, you're not able to finish each other's sentences. It's a problem of diversity in a team you're a white male after 40, you want to hire the same guy. So that was the same problem with like hiring more females some more, but it's the same problems with diversity of personalities in a team. And it's very painful at the beginning, but once you guys are mature enough, you've been from some stuff that you're able to not be so emotional that, but once you solve those basic issues, that's how you can just reach. 1 (20m 14s): So the stars, because we have a team when our weaknesses and our strengths compliment each other, and I'm really convinced that is such a type a bit of a team because each one of us has been from some stuff we've all been from different problems. We are all probably came out of it, stronger, wiser, a peace, more peaceful. And he said, not being so emotional during these things, that's certainly a muscle. Definitely. It's a muscle and is the possibility of seeing things in perspective. And my father has died a couple of years ago, just around that time when my problems have started. And when you are faced with some real, the real big problems in life, you start to suddenly build to this scale where you see the extra you've been through extremely good situation. 1 (21m 2s): You've been through extremely, in such a situation in life or thinking you're going to go to Nigeria, to jail for a couple of years. And then everything else happens through you. How did the Monday and some normal, because he can put it into that scale. And I think the problem with most people is that their scale is super narrow. They haven't gone for the extreme, positive, extreme, negative. This is why they get so emotional about any single thing, because for their scale, it's actually, 3 (21m 33s): That is pretty interesting. It sounds like a lot of your journey. He was the first half was a very external, like you were driven by trying to prove yourself for a driven, by this sense of freedom that you didn't even know what it was, but you knew something was there. Right? And then you had, I don't know, I guess we can call it. You hit rock bottom. You're sitting in a prison cell. You just went through this massive battle. Was that, would you say that is, was a turning point where you started looking more introspective. 1 (21m 59s): It starts with the process. This is why I'm the first chapter of my book is really about me being bullied kid, because what, what created my personality during those moments in my life really drove me for the next 10 years. It's extremely powerful, powerful tool to have to have that motivation of that hungry fat kid. It can make you extremely successful in business, like when you were working in sales and so on. But if you don't learn how to control that power that you have inside, it can destroy us from the inside out because this internal need of external validation, it's never enough. 1 (22m 39s): You can never satisfy it, but I've seen people who just went just never, never ate. We were never able to control it. And they ended up being addicted to drugs, lavish lifestyle. And at some point they just, they just lost and we lost them. But at some point I realized that if I'm not able to control myself and that's when the process started, if I'm not able to control my emotions during that fight with Interpol and Nigeria, if I'm not able to stop the defend myself by and start defending myself to and become stronger out of it, I would be still Chasing. This guy came to jail and that's when I realized I have to start having a different motivation in life, because this is the only way I can find a peace and survive. 1 (23m 28s): This is why we started psychotherapy also, including psychedelics. So I did both. I did the scientific way with medicine, doctor a psychologist. And I also went for a spiritual a way that really helped me. And which is why one of my pet books that relates to this problem and with a statement actually now thankful to those guys too, my business partner, because he changed me. If I didn't go through what I went through, I would probably be cocky guy buying another expensive and a, and going to the clubs and the new, you know, sending the money you made. But what is, 2 (24m 4s): I think it's so important to be able to look at like the lowest moments in our life for the people that have maybe caused us the most pain and then find like some kind of gratitude in it. Because I feel like there's always like a lesson to be learned. And you can't argue, like when you have these extreme moments that they help shape you as a person, would you say that like the Iowasca and the psychotherapy kinda helps you reframe that? Or did you kind of just do that on your own? 1 (24m 30s): It definitely helped me a couple of things that I wanted to talk this through. This at some point that the was supposed to go never a failure was a lesson which has already happened to you. He might be frustrated or turn that into a lesson and be able to move on from there, which was super powerful for me has helped me in so many ways, but the most practical way that it helped me was This. And I'm going to give you an example of me sticking to a diet or not to drink alcohol, because I had also had depression and with depression, I went into alcohol through the tough times. 1 (25m 12s): For me, every time I wanted to have a drink to forget about my problems for a while, I would think. And I'll try to remember the amazing feeling of waking up the next day, being fresh 7:00 AM, being able to go to the gym, not being kind of over, it's waking up in a place next to someone. I don't remember the name. So if you remember that amazing feeling of waking up fresh and being able to go to the gym and be healthy, it's helps you build with that. Have some drinks. What has given me is that you entered a state of absolute law of not having your ego control you in any way less with the rest of the world, connection with everyone else, even with your enemies. 1 (25m 57s): And that is that seeding that I remember deep inside. And every time I get annoyed, I get emotional. I want to do something which is driven by my ego. I get p****d off about s**t. You know how it is. I tried to meditate and I tried to go back down to memory life or how I felt during the ceremony of just being absolutely peaceful and full of love and happiness and so on. It gave me that state, the emotional state, which I'll always go to when I see like, you know, to much is being pumped into my blood and I'm about to go some stupid stuff. So he helped you develop that self awareness and the emotions starting to take over. 1 (26m 46s): You understand that, not on a rational level, you understand it, not on me with your brain, but you understand that this is what's happening to me. The difference between reading the music notes and actually playing the music. 3 (27m 3s): You talked about that a lot. There's a difference between like knowing something like logically or academically, but then actually being able to feel it and understand it from like a visceral level. It's just a totally different, like, you can understand how to control yourself, you understand meditation and what meditation means, how to separate, like you're get that gap in between like the thoughts and actions and emotions. And you understand that until you actually do the practice and do the work. 1 (27m 29s): Absolutely. I couldn't see it in the more clear way when I started the growing also to, you know, those anonymous groups. Cause I tried to do everything and I tried to find out what works for me to work on my personality. And I would go to a couple of those meetings and Oh my God, how shocked I was, everyone that was in during those groups were extremely successful. Businessmen lawyers, university professors, book, outliers. I mean guys who have IQ above 140, they all understood perfectly. What are the issues behind personality problems and drug addictions and so on and so on. 1 (28m 9s): And I'll have some of that knowledge does not help you in anything. And it brings us to that case of business, right? Everyone knows how to do it, 3 (28m 19s): Right? It's all over Instagram. You know, that grit is a thing and that you're supposed to have it, but, but it's a muscle, but you need the work at Chris. You need to work at having a entrepreneurial mindset are a growth mindset or any of these things. It's not just like you just reading or like having some Instagram post, we yell at you that you need to be more, have more grit. Like it's not gonna work that we need to feel it. I need to do it and build that muscle over time. 1 (28m 45s): Those Instagram motivations they're, they're cool. They're, they're super helpful, but you can't just, you can motivate yourself more by watching 10 of them in a row. Right. They don't add up, like they can help you here and there, but this is that how you feel is the big problem that is inside doing the first place. 3 (29m 4s): Yeah. Did you find that during your Iowasca experience, did it allow you to kind of see where your neutral was like D was there like an overarching emotion that kind of drove you prior to let's just use your, your imprisonment for that day as like the point, right prior to that point, was there like a, an emotion that drove you, that you were able to identify, or maybe a series of emotions that you found that you were like, that was your neutral? 1 (29m 30s): Yes. That's one of the other thing that happens to you during those ceremonies is that you are able to remind yourself about those things from the childhood that are still bound in your emotions. They be used to program your personality, but you don't remember them anymore. And they came out in few of them and that was the material then you can use during your psychotherapy sessions. So that was extremely powerful. A lot of situations that I didn't remember from when I was five year old, six years old, mainly within that hour, when I was bullied, all that I really tried to fit in into the society back then, my society was more of those cool kids on the street. 1 (30m 10s): Then you can use that material and work it for a while. You were a psychotherapy is you can go back to those situations and fix it. Then, then that kind of rewire your emotions. And that's the whole point of working on your ceremony. It was extremely helpful in that way, but it doesn't mean it's the only way you can cheat with the same with probably way, way more or less like 1000 hours a night. 2 (30m 34s): Yeah. I've heard that. I don't know if I have enough surrender to do a psychedelic. I haven't experienced them yet. He's done a couple of ceremonies and he's had some pretty like profound experiences that he shared with me other than Iowasca or psychedelics. What are some like steps that someone can take to like rewire or reframe certain narratives that might not be helpful for them? 1 (31m 0s): Okay. What's helped me was definitely meditation. I'm not an expert. I just use meditation as a tool because from a practical point of view, it's one of the best tools to use because we don't need any, you can just do it anywhere because we were able to medicate when there's the noise, you can meditate where you can meditate sitting or standing and so on. It's, it's, it's something that you can apply immediately anytime. And that tool really helps me enter this more peaceful state, anytime on the situation is going to get a bit too stressful, too much out of hand. And it has helped me prevent myself from sending an email, which would make a lot of them are saying some stuff that was extremely, extremely helpful. 1 (31m 43s): And then definitely those sessions. I mean, I tried to have a call with my psychotherapist at least once per month. And sometimes it's just a five minute call. How you doing? Okay? Like, is there anything we should look more in depth out or that it should be like, you're just like you do health checks every couple of months. You, you should also do your personality check. And I think it's a taboo in the society we live in. There's so many doubles by the way, as you know, but this is definitely helpful to always have someone next to you that can help you explain what's happening to you or from the scientist's aggression or a point of view. Because when I was trying to understand myself, I could see myself as this conflict, that persona, like my irrational part of my closest part was fighting with something that was inside, which has the subconscious programming that I had, which was then created by all those years of being bullied and so and so on. 1 (32m 39s): And I felt like, and this helped to kind of integrate and why, the reason why then that went through all of those personalities prevalence and those emotional issues, which came out during those tough times, I've realized how many problems in business are actually driven by ego issues. Every problem in business, just scratch it long enough. At some point you will find that those actually a communication issue, there was a problem between to people that don't want to. And Dean comes from a more humanistic way is really helping. So it seems like the more I worked on myself from something that seems to be totally not related to business, that is the most single most single most important thing that helps me become more successful in business, which you would think has nothing to do with the business. 1 (33m 35s): So I'm going to be more in business, put down what business book, the number of 100 and find some book about, I dunno, childhood trauma. 3 (33m 47s): I am, it's a psychology in the cliches or there for a reason. I mean, there's a, Oh, that one's saying what got you here? Won't get you. There are, you can't keep that. That's a great one. And then ego gets the book written, right? Those are all of which is true because it'll get you to a certain spot and certain success, but then you're going to keep finding that you're gonna step on your own feet over and over again. And that's about as far as you're going to get until you do the work. 1 (34m 12s): But at some point you're a program gets uploaded. And then there's no reason for you to stop learning, to start getting, if you start getting older and you having the society we live in, we want more out of life. We are aware of that. There is more to life than just feeding your hunger. This is why you should keep working on it. Okay. 3 (34m 34s): Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I love that. Like the organizations like maps is getting so much traction now and so much funding matches in the States here. It's an organization that deals with psychedelics, but from a purely medical standpoint and is like a psychological standpoint, but they're getting tons of traction. So Simon's becoming decriminalized in a few places, I think open to Denver, too, 1 (34m 59s): Treatments for PTSD for all those veterans before, which you probably read this book, I already can see that change your mind on the fact that I was also afraid of going through the same things happen in order to do you have to go deep in the mountains. And we agreed that we're going to meet with some people at the airport, and then I'm going to go together and also to care and go there. And I was like, who am I going to meet? Like our other freaks like that going to this retreat. And there was 10 of during that retreat and five for those people were doctors. 1 (35m 43s): There was a, there was a, but there was a, like a cardio specialist that was a neuroscience there, a scientist, there was a psychologist because all these people were like that. We've been trying to help people for the last 50 years without any significant improvement. And the doctors are interested in what's happening. And I was like, these doctors are going through the ceremony. If 50% of the people you're a doctor or something's happening. And the second thing, which also happened to me, because I am aware of how powerful that external validation needs, how, how powerful this is in business, I would kind of help you. I was afraid that after ceremony, after I become to spiritual, you know, I would just sell all my stuff, move through the desert and just become, this is all the drive to do business. 1 (36m 29s): And I asked myself, am I still going to be motivated to do stuff, to build stuff? And I got the answer. I remember while being in that state and being, you know, just wanting to have everyone, the tree and the people in my enemies. I love them. I asked myself, wait a second in this state, do I say the want to continue my business? And the answer was like, yeah, I can't wait until this is over because I keep, I want to send up. It had no effect on my willingness to grind. Like you said, the, the tool that motivates you change. And that was really comforting. 2 (37m 10s): Yeah. I think that's really important. Cause that's a huge misconception that a lot of like high performers or artists have his, like, you know, you there's that picture of the struggling artist or the tortured artist. And they have to like feel a certain amount of anger, pane to be able to like create something that's worthwhile. And I can only kind of speak for my experience. But I think like you said earlier, the more you work on yourself, as far as like ego work or child work, or just like healing, certain traumas, like it will 100% show up on the business end as well. So like both of those things kind of grow together. A lot of this had started. You seem to be identify yourself, 1 (37m 48s): I guess. Yeah. 2 (37m 50s): To do all this introspective work on everything and not just the pains and everything, but it wasn't like a drive for Growth 1 (37m 56s): That I think I do have the DRI for a girl on it on a daily basis. When I go to sleep, I always try to think, okay, what have I learned? What is, what has changed between the morning and no, and if I feel like I haven't done anything, I would be upset and watch a Ted talk. Like, okay, at least I learned this, right. That's actually a good point. I would say that I need to learn something. But the extent that I feel insecure, if I don't do this on the flip side, when something bad happens to me, I'm like, okay, this is a test for an opportunity on which helps me to deal with the rejection helps me to do with the program. But I would definitely, okay. 1 (38m 38s): I have just learned something is one of the most satisfying things you can get because everything comes and goes, right. I am super hungry. I just have to stay. And I'm like, I'm going to be hungry again. It's like, everything else feels like you can never have enough and tomorrow you'll still be hungry and you'll feel you're just going to eat something cool again. Or are you going to visit to another country, wants to have another car. And they're going to come up with a new model and you want this model again. But with getting more knowledge into yourself, it's kind of more feeding in a way, the more satisfying in the long term, I can't put this into words, but in a way it's like more stable. 1 (39m 21s): That satisfaction kind of stays with you while everything else seems so artificial. Yeah. You just made me realize that. Yeah. Now you need to do something interesting every day, because if all I did was send the emails and f*****g from my team and I see like, well, okay. What's what's, that was the point 3 (39m 41s): You feel like maybe you just need to like add, add some value to your life's experience in some way, or like, just add some value even with the people around you. Cause you're a leader of people, right? Like you have people that work for you. 1 (39m 51s): I do. I consider myself as a city manager though. So I don't, I'm not the guy that works with them on a daily basis. Obviously we have a big organization. I mean, the one that I was responsible for directly a was almost 400. So I had 10 managers directly to me and they had their own teams and that was the worst time of my life. That's where I realized that's not what I wanted to do, but I guess that's the missing part because you learn something. So you add another brick of value and it stays. You've just a building is getting bigger when it comes to like, or just like having a school drink or the school things, you will use it. 1 (40m 34s): And then it would go away while the learning is adding value. That stays, I think that's the, that's the metaphor. 3 (40m 42s): Let's get way to put that. That's a really good way to put it. I like that. You know, after all these This introspective work and all this psychological work that you've done. Have you noticed that your passions has changed or maybe even your, your missions or visions of your life or anything like that? It sounds like entrepreneurship has been a big passion of yours. And I know that you started the foundation. How has that journey been as far as like what you focus on your passions, the things that like intrinsically motivate you and how has it changed throughout your life? 1 (41m 11s): Yeah. I had a big problem with knowing what I really wanna do in life is trying to understand that. And it also felt like I was changing businesses way too often. Like look at my last 10 years of life. And I realized I wouldn't in one location more than a year. Like you kind of just has mentioned This right. I was never with a girlfriend to a longer than a year and a half. And that was like this pattern. And I figured that it's gonna end with H but then that was 30 something and it was still there. So I was like, this is not the age where the code that unless you change it. 1 (41m 57s): And then psychotherapy, he made me understand that is knowing what I wanted to do is change a lot. And the process of writing the blog or the psychotherapy, trying to understand what I want to do or has it changed? I wouldn't say has changed. I actually have it's now for the first time. So like, I know what I want to do in 10 years from now. And I think when you turn chart to you, I'm 44. Now you want to, you don't want to have the answer right? When your twenties, you were still to be getting out. Okay. You want to find that should be able to build on your experience, where to go. So I hope that my current girlfriend is my last one. 1 (42m 40s): I want to stay in my current business for at least 10 years. Cause that's, that was a very, that's very exciting and also scary for me. Okay. I will stay for 10 years for good or bad because we can't build anything significant unless you stay in 10 years. But that's, that's my goal now. So that's scary. But I, all the same time I told myself I really value the freedom of movement. So most of the business's or responsibilities, I always say is nice to have a deal breaker. I need to be able to do it from anywhere I want. And as long as there's the internet, this is why I don't really have too many assets as well, because I consider it like hard assets, like real estate, because he was somehow tied to it. 1 (43m 24s): I prefer to have stocks or investment funds that invest in real estate because that allows me to move it somehow gives me the freedom of movement and stability in this unstable world. I consider assets, which are more, more liquid, actually more safe. Thanks to the fact that there are liquid in the current world. You know, your question was about my passion and what drives me on to where I want to be. Now. I know it needs to be tied to being in one business for a longer, but being able to move around geographically. And that I know what I don't want to do. And I guess enjoying the very earliest stage of the company, which is where nothing happens, like there's chaos to exhale. 1 (44m 7s): So in order to do that in 10 years where the company, I know that I would have to do that. Thanks positions, or to change the apartments and to keep for the company from a different place, stay in this one business. What Africa has taught me and let's get to Africa for a while. I think we've been talking about personnel stuff for a while. What Africa has really given me, it might sound naive for some, but I really liked the fact that, you know, I deal with the business and make money, but also I see that this business has a positive effect on, on the people that are around because we've hired the people that usually would of had a chance to work in an online company. They would probably be not technological companies because we were one of the first technology companies to come to a major, we solve real problems. 1 (44m 54s): I feel like there's capitalism at its best state where you, that doesn't destroy the, the environment or a normal, the corporation's, which are more powerful than countries. You see real people building real businesses, solving real problems. Adam Smith wrote about it, not the capitalism and stuff exchange and everything. Being a virtual world. You see that, and I enjoy that. I am doing something good and I'm also making money. Perfect. What's that? And now I kind of looking for the same thing, but maybe not by my geography, because I don't want to do all the Africa I'm invested in the solar business, but I'm trying to get the same out of it. I'm still hopefully able to make some money because energy is that on the rise. 1 (45m 38s): But as long as you beat out to the business is the renewable energy in a proper way. You're also able to solve some climate issues. So there's also this positive aspect. It's like this sustainable capitalism where you have for stakeholders, which are equally important, clients, employees investors', but also the planet. So again, maybe this is too naive. It's not as black and white as I was, as I'm trying to make it seem, but I like the combination of making money, but also I see this one KPI KPI that I see that I can quantify. And if it goes down, that's my quantification of doing something positive. 2 (46m 22s): Hmm. That's really cool. It sounds like we found a place that you've melded kind of like your own personal desires with your business aspirations, 1 (46m 29s): A sense of contribution. Correct. And that is amazing state to be in a nice little fine to find. And it's that easy. 2 (46m 37s): You want to talk about your foundation and kind of how that came about your inspiration behind it. So you mentioned that these like really big organizations that are showing like these little bloated babies that are living in poverty, how they've done like a huge disservice to Africa. So can you kind of expand on that? 1 (46m 55s): Yup. I always want it to have a, like a charity initiative, but I figured it is going to be on the ground. And the reason why I did this much earlier is because I didn't want to be accused of, you know, publishing essentially exposing some of the things, which brings some bad PR to Nigeria for money. So I was like, okay, this is the time to do, to make a statement. I'm not doing this for the money. And then I started exploring and researching with the call, a sector of charities. And I approach the, just like any investor you would approach, like, show me your PNL or show me your return on investment. How are you managing this organization more? 1 (47m 36s): Does the longterm resolved? And, Oh my God is what I have explored. If even an organization is burning 60% of the money they raise. It is getting way worse. And the organizations have become so big that even if they like it or not there, or to detach from the problem there to solve, big charities are amazing to solve one time crisis like war or a natural catastrophe. There don't work when you're solving like a structural problem of poverty, but we will have solved it by now. It was all the time and go. And I've also realized that the West has done three very bad things to Africa they've colonized Africa, which was bad. 1 (48m 23s): Then that decolonized Africa by creating those things, countries were conflicted at the groups, fight with each other, which makes the country still a very weak and exposed to corruption, which is, I think even Wars and the colorization itself, because it's a long term effect. And then they through so much in the last couple decades, and that age was like giving fish instead of teaching how to fish. Right. You know that, and I was like, okay, I'm not getting into it. So long story short, I'm going to open a tiny, tiny Turkey because it's only going to be my money from the book, maybe my money and some friends who I asked, but maybe a small foundation has what we need to, maybe we need some more or foundation. 1 (49m 7s): We don't want one person that solves all the problems. We want many people getting involved. Right. So I was like, size. His is super cool. And then I was like, I'm this guy coming from the technology sector, technology consultant, you can bring transparency to how funds are being distributed in the country like that Kenya people that don't use cash that often anymore, you can actually pay to anyone, even a taxi driver when that we were mobile wallet because a smartphone and so on and so on. And I was like, I couldn't bring the technology learnings that I learned building eCommerce business. And they drew out into the charity foundation. And then I was like, who do I help? And I figured, I think I'm super, extremely lucky guy because I was born in Poland just after a combination or that at the end of it. 1 (49m 53s): So if I was born 10 years earlier, I wouldn't be where I am right now. I was you lucky. So let me find a group of people. There's some in such a deep sheet, how many is there a second Einstein? They will never make it. So they're screwed on every single level look far. And Nigeria, there's a site called Borno when you have first of all, radical Islam, extreme poverty, no power, no electricity drops extremely hot sun, no water. Then you have Boko Haram and that are Keating. The villagers that could not be and is extremely dangerous. 1 (50m 40s): Or a couple of weeks ago, there were four people working for United nations. And that was like, If we help them. At least we're putting some efforts into some of that is the most possible way we distribute lacking. Like that was my attention. And then my girlfriends came and she is like, but let's focus on orphan girls because if you're an orphan, then you're screwed even more than you don't have parents. And if you're a girl, then you could even more because in radical Islam to put it in a diplomatic terms, I mean, the position of the woman in the society is the strongest, right? So your chances of becoming successful independent woman. And she said, let's focus on the girls because if you are helping in a very under developed region, it's like solving two problems at once because educated and empowered woman will make sure that the kids are also educated. 1 (51m 31s): The problem with those very, very poor communities is that parents will have 10 kids because they assume if I have 10 kids on the five to survive because there was no and so on. So they have way too many kids, but they're full. So it's even harder for them to feed those kids. So it's like a vicious circle, but educated and empowered woman will make sure she doesn't have to medicate in a way of contraception and so on, and then educated and empowered woman. And we'll get into business. I like we discussed earlier more women in business left and right. So we've decided to focus on an orphan girls in Borno state, the major, you know, we found him a school for, for orphans. 1 (52m 16s): And we were doing this step by step first, by providing them with basic infrastructure, then you need to be the wall's in that school. We have chairs, books, materials, laptops are coming in, and then we're going to choose. You have to maximize your chances of your, how to be sustainable and have longterm results. We were to choose those girls, which show the best results in mathematics, because if you're good at math, there's a high chance. You'll be a good accountant or a web developer. And if they're going to be trying to be a mathematics teacher, me with my network of people, I'm able to get them an internship or a job. And in the end, bring her from this very poor community, into a city where she makes sense making money and she becomes independent. 1 (53m 1s): And then maybe she'll be thankful in us. And she will do something like that. So instead of sponsoring 1000 meals for 1000 kids, once I prefer to choose a couple of kids, but to help them as long as it's needed until they become financially independent. So it's not as sexy as, you know, showing we just thing. And we gave them those out of it because the results are not visible for a long time. But if you do it on your own with your own money, you don't have to do a staff to make it look sexy because you're not relying on someone else's money. So that's the story about my a foundation is a very beginnings. The book has been in sales for a couple months. 1 (53m 43s): We raised so far around $25,000, but you know, we start small and we'll see where this is going to go. 3 (53m 54s): Absolutely. Well, how do you find the, the, the girl's life? How much time do you spend in Africa going through to these different orphanages and everything? 1 (54m 2s): Oh no. So we just chose this one school they're is around 180 kids. Most of them are girls and they're our friends. We just focus on building the infrastructure for the school itself. And then once they are able to have normal or the master lessons or with the material is with, with, with all the books and so on, because this is how, when we saw the photos of the school, the kids were sitting on the ground. Like there were not even chairs. So this is how much work has to be done. And then after some time after the school becomes a properly working school, I expected this to happen six months from now, maybe 12. That's where we're going to start looking at, okay, who, who is getting good grades? Who can we send a boarding school? 1 (54m 43s): Because we already have a partnership with a boarding school in Lagos, Nigeria, those girls, then you can make friends with ghosts from middle class and have just become more, feel more valuable in a society. And then I actually have a deal already with the police university that will give them the tuition for, I mean, we'll teach them for free. We just have to cover there a place to live. And so we just have to deliver them. 3 (55m 11s): Yeah. And this is still new. Right. But have you thought about, I mean, I'd imagine that it's just like any other orphanages where the children have traumas that are going to prevent them from becoming a successful or for being a powerful woman. If you guys thought through exactly how you going to tackle that. 1 (55m 29s): No. Yeah. The psychotherapist, the support is already a part of this. We have a couple of great consultants who have been working, not the only one that noticed that there's something wrong in the current system of charities. I have people coming to me and they're like, don't want to have, we want to support because they also see a problem. That's what I said. It's better if more people, hell of a little bit than one organization. So if anyone listening here is interested, just check out, Chasing, Black, Unicorns have to come or Maya foundation for how you can, how we can help is actually a button. Or if someone is interested, if you can also, you can also support financial. Yeah, of course. Yeah. 1 (56m 10s): Buy the book end of the book is s**t to support. 3 (56m 17s): That's awesome. That's great. What are you doing? A lot of really cool things and it's exciting to that, that you're so passionate about it. 1 (56m 25s): Yeah. That's I guess it's super cool place to be in when, first of all, we have built something called and that also allows you to pay your bills. But again, I paid my price. I mean, in order to be in a place when money don't matter that much anymore, I mean, first you have to make some money because the first job I was eating s**t just to make money. So it's so easy to say, you know, my money, I'm going to give you happiness, but not everyone has that comfort. And you said, what brought you here is that I'm going to take you there. So all those things in life to stick to differ depending on where you are. So don't not to listen to those millionaires that you read about tech crunch or a best fit, because most of them come from privilege. 1 (57m 16s): And the best way to put this into perspective is that that was a Nigerian someone put on Twitter and is famous for the Apple being cited in a garage, in a garage and then Amazon or Google, whatever. And then the motivation was behind it. Like what stops you from? And then someone from the jail, like my parents don't have a house with a garage. This is the whole point of, of distributing the absolute basics and chances of success. 3 (57m 49s): That's cool. Yeah. You got a cool path, Eddie, you too, you got 10 years committed and to contribute in this way. Right? That's so cool. So what's the major impact that you're trying to make. 1 (58m 5s): I'm responsible for a marketing agency, which has focused on Africa. Most of the big eCommerce businesses are working with us or used to be with the eCommerce. Now I'm going to have an agency commerce Growth in Africa. But like I said, I didn't want to be just the Africa guy. I wanna learn at some point, don't want to end up being just his routine and he needs to learn. So I decided to change my geographical focus and also changing my sector. So we've invested in the Swedish stock comp that build solar roofs. Basically, they're trying to not trying to actually doing it. They're pretty important competition for you guys. Not the stuff for sure. Right? 1 (58m 45s): Or they're now called a European Tesla rules. I guess someone calls them like this. I don't mind. And I joined them. I've invested some money and I've become the compounder. And this is extremely cool for me because on one side I'm learning a lot because the geographical focus is not Africa on me. I mean, everyone needs solar power, everyone in soluble energies for different reasons in Europe. It's because you want to be green in Africa because if you don't have power from solar, many times, you don't have power. And we need to learn about the business itself because this is the first time in my life. When the business is physical, I can touch the product that we produce because for it was first financial sector and then it was startup software e-commerce that could never touch what I was making. 1 (59m 26s): And you are actually, I can touch the roof, right? Even breaks. People will have what they're running on their heads. So that's again, frightening and a huge learning curve for me. And then, like I said, the word is the big problem. Like we can't rely on fossil fuels forever. And we have to figure out a way to renewable energy and solar power is a big chance to solve this issue also by empowering people. Because I can't imagine having a micro nuclear plant in your basement. I can't imagine having this huge fun to collect energy from wind in your house, but solar on your roof is actually doable. 1 (1h 0m 7s): And there's been a lot of changes in technology. It's becoming quite a more efficient way, more cheap for every individual to create its own power source. And especially in countries where people don't have that much money, being able to rely on their own. A power source is a game changer. Maybe you don't see it that much in the States because we just paid or that you might want to go green. You may want to go solar because you're in Nigeria or in Kenya, electricity price might be 40% of your budget. So it's a game changer if you have your own electricity source. So besides going good stuff for the environment by, you know, you can also empower families by giving them free. 1 (1h 0m 57s): Of course, after the initial investment, which can be solved, then you end up having the social that pays itself. So for me, this is the combination of having a Trent, which is growing like crazy. So that is definitely has a business. But then again, having that one cool thing that I see, like, again, I haven't opened the casino, I'm not producing vodka. I don't have a tequila brand, which kind of, I don't think it's solving issues right here. I see This something positive, as naive as it may sound, you can challenge this. I kind of have some inspection by looking at this firm that, that way 3 (1h 1m 36s): That's cool. Well, I think that it's so important. You've kind of positioned yourself as a bit of an expert in this emerging market of Africa or you've been, you've been dealing business around Africa for quite a while. 1 (1h 1m 48s): Whether I like it or not. Yeah. Because it's been a, almost a year, so there's not too many people doing that yet. 3 (1h 1m 54s): So in the spirit of trying to like pull out some of your knowledge and share up to some listeners, Peter Diamandis, I think is like just a cool, cool Entrepreneur. He is one of my favorites. I love all his books and everything like that. And he always says that the greatest problems in the world are where he find the biggest business opportunities. What I'm listening too, is that there are definitely people out there like yourself who think to entrepreneurship is, is their to contribute, write, to solve the world's problems in some sense, and then obviously make a profit off of it. And then, and I think that that's just an awesome, it's just a great way to live your life. But then there are also certain investors out there that just really want to get involved with emerging markets. Not because of the, not just because of the business opportunities there, but because they need Capitol. 3 (1h 2m 37s): And you know, if capitalism is there to help, which I think it is, then they need more capital flowing it to those directions. And then there's kind of like the middle class kind of like the regular, you know, normal people that are always looking to get involved in something that is beneficial or somewhere to invest their money or anything like that. So my three questions is as an entrepreneur, how can someone from the States or anywhere outside of Africa get involved with either some of the startups that are their, or how can they contribute in some way, or are there, are there even entrepreneurial opportunities from a distance? 1 (1h 3m 14s): This is typical for frontier and emerging markets. What is typical for them out of many things is that it's very hard for that middle class guys to get involved. Do you remember that Volvo trucks advertisement? We have John called Madame when he was doing the split between those two tracks. 3 (1h 3m 30s): Yeah. 1 (1h 3m 33s): So many people try to run their businesses in Africa or invest in Africa, in the States or in Europe, in Africa. And then they see that this huge trucks are getting far from each other and they're getting bigger and bigger. This is not doable in a frontier, but the chest frontier and emerging markets having a common is lack of trust, piracy, and the lack of infrastructure that allows cashflow information flow or the legal disputes to be solved internationally. And you have to be on the ground. If you don't have a big scale enough, you don't have the resources to send someone on the ground. 1 (1h 4m 18s): Right? When I look at foreigners building businesses in emerging or frontier markets, and that doesn't apply only to the Africa or Subsaharan Africa. And you remember, we were talking about 54 countries, they're a different stage of Growth, but then you can see, you can apply the same answer to a certain Latin American countries, Southeast Asia, or even Eastern Europe. You can either a ranch, a business on your own. It's a very small business that allows it to micromanage or its a huge business that has enough resources that allows you to hire a proper senior management managers too, to make sure that their businesses running a proper way for you trying to train them on your own, that there are no financial tools like investment funds, which are transparent or a platform that, that those startups allow you to easily get in and get out because the market is not liquid. 1 (1h 5m 10s): Those are those problems that you need to wait until the market gets more developed. Unless you decide to just stop whatever you're doing and then move on your own. But if you are now small and medium size entrepreneur and your tickets investments ticket that you can sizes anywhere from 10 to $100,000, it's going to be, it's going to be tough because it's not enough to go there and do it on your own. And also investment funds. That ticket is too small to become a limited partner. Investment funds want us, you know, you want to be that then does the searching for you or their on the ground? They making sure that no one, this is the problem, unfortunately, which is a symptomatic for the state of Growth. 3 (1h 5m 59s): So there's no like crowdfunding platform that has just like impactful company is or anything like that. 1 (1h 6m 5s): If they're are they all of them, unfortunately it's not there yet. In order for crowd funding platforms still be a successful. There has to be a certain level of trust in the market. It's basically essentially into a trust like Airbnb couldn't be successful if 1,012, Adrian, because he couldn't trust the host's the understanding of what it is to rent a house to someone else was just not there, not there yet, but now it's happening. Right? But we started by building the trust in eCommerce in 2012, people were afraid to order anything online because how could they trust that I'm paying for this phone and someone will send it to me. This is why you have to have cash on delivery. 1 (1h 6m 46s): Every new business model requires different level of trust in the sector, in a society in the markets. And you can see this from hindsight that is getting in stages and every stage allows you to launch another type of business. And I think crowd funding is just not there yet to be, to be big enough. Although there are platforms, I just don't consider them as a, as the big enough successful enough to go there yet. Some people might be offended, especially those funders. And there are definitely are some cases that those platforms are working. There's one which allows you to loan money to farmers because farmers are super small, super scattered in Nigeria. They actually to borrow money to buy some seeds and make some, grow, some vegetables you can help them. 1 (1h 7m 29s): And I know that this is working in agriculture, pretty nice going to do this to make money. But if you're looking only at maximizing your investment return, that's where this is lucky. 3 (1h 7m 44s): Interesting. Okay. You have it. All of your questions are answered that. Well, the three word, you know, how, how would it from a contribution standpoint and you know, any entrepreneurial? I think that it's, it's, you know, I wanted to be entrepreneurs, investors, and then regular people trying to get involved in some way. It sounds like the best way to do it right now until maybe there's more empowerment on the ground there in, you know, in emerging markets are Africa, but you know, we got to educate kinda the locals on an entrepreneurship and you can start to companies and that are, 1 (1h 8m 14s): You know, what, hire someone from there and bringing them here. Four, some international internships. The problem with Africa it's that there's enough money bought in the local, the local investors. They don't want to look at technology businesses. They still prefer to make money out of foreign investors. They bring the money, they invest it. There's no trust for the most important elements of growth of the market. For me, it's our immigrants. Most of the States when they were 15, they finished their education that they've worked for a couple of years in an organization, in a business, they learn, they came back with money, with knowledge and with a passion to build the local business. 1 (1h 8m 55s): So sometimes instead of you pushing there, bring someone in, helps you get a visa, some supports here, and then let him come back and do the good job with his hands. It is really interesting, the best way to do to support you in some way to the foundation. Thank you so much for the invitation. I can assume there would be some people who or find it interesting. And I can thank you enough, how we best support you as you already know. 1 (1h 9m 38s): It's impossible to have my name on my domain. The book title is pretty easy to remember. It's Chasing Black you and your cards is the website on that website. You will find everything about the book, thinking about the foundation also, or social media handles everything or is there because it's, this is why the book title was supposed to be easy. Beautiful. 0 (1h 10m 3s): All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate your time. 1 (1h 10m 9s): Thank you so much guys. 0 (1h 10m 11s): That's it for this week's episode, I hope you enjoyed it. If you have the time please rate and review and you can always hit subscribe to stay up to date with our latest episodes. I hope to have you back.