#142 Sex After 50: Breaking Taboos and Embracing Pleasure in Midlife

0 (0s): So here I was having the best sex of my life theoretically. And, you know, I wasn't able to orgasm. So they literally showed me a vibrator and said, go try that in the other office. And I, you know, turned 50 shades of, of pink. I went and I tried it. I'm like, oh my God. Like, where have you been all my life? The 1 (16s): Idea that you're supposed to stop being sexual at a certain age, how do you help women combat that very collective narrative? 0 (23s): Well, I'm a living, breathing example of someone who's 61 and sexually active and enjoying it. 1 (29s): Is there a too old for sex? 0 (31s): Just have to modify, you know, even I have back and hip and neck, like, 1 (34s): I have know so many guys that get really intimidated when you bring anything electric into the room. Like, I'm not good enough. 0 (40s): And that feel that if you try anal play that, that means they're gay. 1 (45s): Like if a woman's doing the thing, like that's not gay, 0 (48s): They're missing out. 1 (55s): Karen, thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited to learn from you. I guess we can start with what brought you to the sexual health conference here in Denver, and a little bit of how you got into your work. 0 (1m 6s): Yes, definitely. So I started out, I'm actually just certified as a Sha Sexual Health Alliance sex Educator. I also certified about a year ago I was a menopause coach and launched a podcast. And so I, I'm putting that all together here at the conference. And my journey really started when I got divorced and kind of had my sexual awakening a little over 10 years ago. And in the process, I I, as my hormones were changing, I learned afterwards I started to suffer, if you will, from anorgasmia, which is the inability to have an orgasm. Mm. So here I was having the best sex of my life theoretically, and, you know, I wasn't able to orgasm. And so that journey began my understanding of sexuality and my, my ability to really talk about it. 0 (1m 53s): I met, ultimately ended up at a practice that I'm, they pair you with a nurse practitioner and a sex therapist. And I learned that I was deficient at the time at testosterone because your hormones start to change in midlife and also learned about vibrators. So they literally showed me a vibrator and said, go try that in the other office. And I, you know, turned 50 shades of, of pink and red. And I, I went and I tried it. I'm like, oh my God. Like, where have you been all my life? I'd, I'd never tried a vibrator. So in my early fifties I started to learn about that. So just from a personal level, having a better sex life, but also from a conversational level, being able to talk about it because every time I went into the office, they'd be asking me all these personal questions and it just became easier and easier to talk about. 0 (2m 39s): And I was like, I gotta get everybody talking about this stuff. And so that's sort of where the journey began, but it didn't really culminate into anything. I didn't know what it was until around my 60th birthday. I was like, I think this is what I wanna do. Finally found my passion and then I launched the podcast and went my path from there. 1 (2m 58s): Amazing. So do you think that there, that it's like really common for a lot of women to experience vibrators like that later in life that they're not into, you said you were 50 when you first did it, something like that? Yeah, yeah. That, that's, I 0 (3m 12s): Was divorced, so I hadn't, hadn't used one with my ex-husband. Did 1 (3m 14s): You ever use one by yourself before then? No. No. So do you think that that's probably common or like a lack of ex exploration or I guess expecting that you, you're supposed to have pleasure? 0 (3m 26s): Oh, absolutely. I certainly think in, in my generation, I, I, I can't speak for everybody's bedroom, but I can say that there's a lot more shame about talking about it in, in my generation than there what, than there is when I talk to younger people about it. And I'll say, you know, someone will say something about their, their sex life and I'll go, well, are you masturbating? And the younger women will like, will say, yeah, of course, or I have a vibrator, and, and the other people will, you know, women are, and men will be like, kind of ashamed of, of it. So I do think the, the learning about your body, learning about sex, we certainly weren't taught it. I now have met up, you know, certainly here and, and physicians and, and gynecologists more and more hopefully are getting educated and educating their patients and saying, take a look down there, let's see, let's see what's going on. 0 (4m 15s): What does it really look like and what, you know, how is it changing? And, and how can you enjoy it better? 1 (4m 21s): So, and at what age would you recommend that women start to get hormones checked and and I and get into the importance of knowing your hormone levels? 0 (4m 29s): So I'm gonna debunk the myth of hormone levels to the extent I'm not a, I'm not a licensed medical practitioner, but the best way to deal with issues with menopause and hormonal changes is to, to treat the symptoms. That's what the doctor a good doctor will do. There's really no accurate measurement of your hormones because they fluctuate so much. So you could be, you know, in your, in your late middle or late thirties and start to feel symptoms like hot flashes or brain fog or even in your early forties is more, more typical. And the doctor will start to, hopefully you'll, you'll start to associate it with the changes of, of hormones. 0 (5m 9s): Oftentimes what happens is these symptoms are so disparate and you're younger and there's not a connection between that and, and menopause. So I encourage younger women to get more educated because the more you know, the more you can tie these things together, which was not originally what happened with me. Remind me your question. Your question was hormone levels, right? 1 (5m 31s): Yeah, hormone levels, 0 (5m 31s): Yeah. Right. So, so what you want to look out for as a younger woman is, are these things happening that don't make sense? And are doctors either poo-pooing me or treating me with antidepressants, which is like the number one thing or sending me for me, I had heart palpitations and they sent me for a full cardiac workup and I later learned that that was a symptom of, of perimenopause. Now I actually had a very progressive doctor who put me on hormone therapy in my late forties, but most women were not as lucky as me. And so when you start to, there, there are things that are obvious that we hear about with hormone changes, like hot flashes, night sweats, insomnia, but then there are things like frozen shoulder and you know, dry skin, itchy ears, like things that you're like, where are these things coming from? 0 (6m 18s): Brain fog, sudden mood changes. And what happens is they start getting treated as separate, separate things when really they're probably, you know, a hormone therapy as a starting point might be a, a good treatment. Now there's other treatments as well, but you know, my my go-to would be start looking into hormone therapy. 1 (6m 39s): Yeah, I agree. And I think it's, it's a shame that so many people still kind of discount it a lot. I know so many people, myself included, that I've dabbled with hormones and it made such a big difference in, in like my mood, my skin libido, all of the things. And for me, like I have a lot of thyroid stuff and then that my testosterone naturally occurring is nil. Wow. Nothing. So it has helped me a ton. But you still see people in the medical, medical community that are like, they'll look at my doctor and be like, you're just selling snake oil. And he's like, men have been doing this for so long and we've been lying to women about the application, and they need to know that this is for them too. It's not just for men. Like, you wonder why men age so well, like fine wine, they have all of this abundant testosterone, and if not, then they're supplementing it. 1 (7m 23s): So we can do the same thing for women. When do you see like a typical change or dip in sexual function for women? 0 (7m 32s): Again, it really depends. Some, some women have will say they were not symptomatic at all. And a dip in sexual function is, is personal. What, what, what, what does sexual function mean to you? For me, it was an issue. I didn't have a problem with getting aroused or libido, but I had a problem with orgasm. For some women, it's that the physical painful sex as a result of the hormonal changes that cause vaginal dryness or other issues that, that they may have, there could be the, you know, the, the emotional changes in your, in your, the brain changes that are starting you like you're so depressed and feeling so shitty and you're not sleeping well. And so it's like, I don't, you know, I don't wanna have sex anymore. And you think and that, and that's the reason. So it's really, you know, a range. 1 (8m 14s): So when you start noticing each these changes, blood panel, see where everything's at, so you can kind of story tell, but getting I guess more comfortable with your changing body and the idea that you're supposed to stop being sexual at a certain age. How do you help women combat that very collective narrative? 0 (8m 32s): Well, I'm a living, breathing example of someone who's 61 and sexually active and enjoying it. I always say enjoy it safely, but, but I think that, that it's a myth to say that we no longer are sexual. There's now a couple of studies, Lisa Moscone brain research talks about how women that she interviewed, one of the things she found in particular with women who were postmenopausal, they have this sort of, I don't give a fuck at attitude. Cosmo and the Kinsey Institute did a study and found that women over 60 were having the best sex of their lives. So I think we have to start to, when we see that, that there are women that are aging, that are sexual beings. I mean, we have some beautiful celebrities that are, that are, that are sexual. 0 (9m 13s): And also I think the, the couples who've been together for a long time sort of say, okay, like we had our sex life, we're done now, and there's so much opportunity to rebuild and start a new kind of sex life or, or new intimacy life. And it doesn't mean, you know, introducing a third person or, or an affair, if you will, or it could. But there's so, so many things that we don't even, we just sort of write off like, oh my sex life is done and, and it's your sex, your sexual health is part of your overall health and it's so important, it's important for blood flow, for cardiovascular health, for muscular muscle health, for bone health. There's so many reasons why you need to have sex be part of your repertoire of, of overall health. 0 (9m 55s): And so I would just encourage anybody, it doesn't matter, you know, even it, it can happen with a hor hormonal, hormonal changes of having a child as well. So all these things are, are, are possible. And I just wanna make a a a quick distinction. You were talking about thyroid issues. I know with my gynecologist was checking my thyroid from when I was, I was young as well. So I think that there's that one of the distinctions that's starting to be made now, and there's a great book by a new one called The New Menopause by Mary Marie Claver, something like that. She talks about now we call it menopause hormone therapy because what you have is hormone therapy for treating thyroid. It, it also happens to help you with as you age with those changes. 0 (10m 36s): But hormone therapy is often referred to hormone replacement therapies, often referred to as as what we're doing for menopause. 1 (10m 43s): So how has your sex life changed from when you would were in your thirties, twenties, thirties compared to now? 0 (10m 50s): Well, I was married, I got married in my mid twenties, so I definitely didn't have that ability. You know, I, I hadn't sowed my wild oats, if you will. So we were, you know, we, my my ex and I had some sex, but it's, you know, towards the end it was a lot less and it was sort of what is one of our speakers talking about the Sunday morning mono, mono whatever you, he called it, missionary position kind of sex. It really wasn't terribly experimental. And also I think the thing that has changed most for me, aside from getting a little louder and more emotional and how I experience intimacy is being able to talk about it. It's very hard when you get out. I'm, I'm single and we get out into the dating world after being married for a really long time. 0 (11m 33s): I was married for 25 years to ask for like STI testing and I've gotten very comfortable with, you wanna get naked with me? That's a requirement. And then also being able to express like, I like it this way, I like it that way. I mean, I'm even as a sex educator and someone who speaks about it on as, as a vocation, it's still hard. But being able to say, this is what I want, this is what I need, this is what brings me pleasure. How can I do the same for you and how can we have this, this enjoyable experience together? That's something that I'm so much better at doing. And I, and if I meet a, you know, a man who isn't interested in having that conversation than I realize he's just not for me. And that's, that's what I need. 0 (12m 13s): That's not what everybody needs. Yeah. 1 (12m 15s): Communication is key. Is there a too old for sex? 0 (12m 20s): Absolutely not. We should be having sex. I have, I have two stories. One is that there's a, an assisted living community, I think it's in Orlando that has the highest rates of STIs, transmissions in the country because all these old people are, are having sex. So good for them, let's just get them to be doing it safely. And the other story was, I was at the, the hair salon and my hairdresser was telling me a story about this older couple that he had that were in their seven, their seventies. They were celebrating like their 50th wedding anniversary. And he asked the, the wife, I guess he, he cut both their hair, what, you know, what did you get your husband for your anniversary? And she said, knee pads. And he couldn't figure out what she was talking about, but it was, it was related to, it's, it's, you just have to modify, you know, even I have back and hip and neck, like, you just gotta learn to modify and you, you have to learn to say like, this is the way I have to, you know, I have to do it, but I really wanna do it. 0 (13m 14s): So like, let's figure this out. Yeah, let's, let's make it fun. 1 (13m 17s): One of the speakers, I think he was saying, or no, maybe it was Kaden and she's like, you might not be able to do reverse cowgirl. That's right. Might allow for Exactly. You just, you just pivot. Exactly. 0 (13m 27s): Exactly. 1 (13m 27s): So for couples that have maybe fallen into the trap that they have had sex, that it's passed their season and they have closed that door for a very long time, let's say it's been years or even decades since they've had sex, because that was the narrative that they gave themselves. Right. Do you have any like tips or suggestions for how they can go about opening that door back up? 0 (13m 47s): I think it has to start with, you know, wanting it at, at some, some visceral level. But I also, I, you know, a lot of interviews that I listen to, it's an opportunity, like, you're listening to this podcast and you hear this conversation, okay honey, like, what do you think we haven't had sex in a really long time. Could, could we start this conversation again? And, and I, I used to say like, when my ex-boyfriend and I, whenever we were having conversations about sex, it was in the car, so we were not looking at each other. It was a lot easier. So, ha if the conversation is difficult to start, you can have it in a way that maybe you're not looking at each other or you're, you know, you're turn to the back and say, oh my God, I heard this podcast, or I read this book, or, or I heard a speaker. 0 (14m 28s): And even if your partner does not want to talk about it, you've now put something in their head and the conversation may may grow from there. And you don't need to start with going away, you know, a dungeon like that does not have to be the next step. It could be something really simple, you know, as, as, as buying a vibrator or, you know, trying to do it in a different room than you used to do it. Or putting a candle and just getting romantic and forgetting about, you know, the, the purpose of like getting, getting naked. And, and one of my, my sex therapist that, that I had interviewed, she was talking about having an evening of not sex, just just being saying, okay, let's just be together and lie in bed together and just see, remember what that felt like. Mm. 1 (15m 7s): Yeah, because it, I think it's probably one of the, one of many symptoms in a relationship that just kind of seems to fizzle out. So yes, sex is one of them, but it might also be just like the cuddling or the hand holding or just those little touch points throughout the day, and then all of a sudden they're all gone. Yep. And I don't know that that would be enough for me. Like, it, it's hard because you can see these relationships and I see these relationships where everything else is so great, but they don't have that, they don't have that intimate love or that intimate connection. And for them they think that's okay. And I'm like, I wonder if you're just like convincing yourself, because to me, I don't know how that relationship is different than any other relationship then. 1 (15m 48s): You know what I mean? 0 (15m 49s): So I would ask you, is that relationship really so great or is that just the, the facade that they're putting on? Yeah. Right. And, and, and even, you know, if you wanna make it simpler, I, you know, I, I combine two, two different words that I heard in two different podcasts and I call it now sexual snacking. Like what about it doesn't, the the, the holding hands again, or the, you know, the pat on the butt or the touch behind the back or the, like coming home from work and giving the gottman's the Gottman kiss, which is a six second kiss or a 22nd hug, just doing some, some little gesture. It's just like any habit you want, you wanna change. Like, if you try to do the whole thing, say, okay, we're gonna go, you know, Saturday night, we're gonna have a wild night of sex. 0 (16m 29s): It's probably not gonna happen if you haven't done it in 20 years or 10 years or whatever. But if you say, okay, how about we hold hands tonight on our way home from dinner or, and then try that and how about we have a long kiss and start just rediscovering each other and either you're gonna rediscover each other and it will start spark as Esther Perel says, like a new, a whole new marriage in the same relationship. Or you'll discover that maybe it's time to find a new relationship. 1 (16m 54s): So how did you know that you were ready for a divorce? If you wanna share, we could skip it if you're not No, no, 0 (16m 60s): I, I kind of have an NDA but I'll just say in general that, that we just grew apart, you know, we were, we were together from when we were very young and things just changed and we were different people, so Well, 1 (17m 13s): So it's a big leap. So if, are you allowed to say how, how old you were when you 0 (17m 18s): Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, not in the details. I'm sorry. Ask me the question again. 1 (17m 21s): How old you were when you got divorced? 0 (17m 24s): I, well we separated in 2013, so I think I was 50 or 51 and divorced two years later. 1 (17m 30s): So that sounds really terrifying to a lot of people. And I think that there's this narrative, especially if you are anything over 25 that you somehow lose like your market value. And then if you are leaving something that people are saying, well, this is a sure thing, you've got this sturdy, reliable marriage over here and you are unhappy, you're selfish, you want more, and you're gonna leave this thing and be single and like, what if you don't find anyone else? What if like, right, there's like all of these what ifs and a lot of fear and anxiety that comes with it. So I think that that traps a lot of women, especially if they've been in the marriage for a very long time, or if they're, they perceive themselves as being older or whatever that is. 1 (18m 10s): So then they would rather be in like this lackluster passionless loveless marriage because of the security that it provides versus like taking that explorative step of saying, well, like, let's just go see what's out there and if I can be happier even if I end up by myself. 0 (18m 27s): I think co couple things you've addressed, I, I would say the biggest barrier to divorce for women is financial. Okay. So I think that's a really hard thing. And depending on what the relationship is, like if it's a very high conflict divorce, I, I used to work in divorce, so I saw a lot of it. If it's a very high conflict divorce, it can be very devastating for, for a family. So I think there's a, a, a fear of that. I think if you have the, the means to be able to do it, it's just a question of finding the confidence. I mean, I had many years of therapy of kind of finding my, my voice and you know, that was one of my issues as a, as a, as a child, you know, not, not being heard, not being seen, not feeling safe. And I finally was able to get the confidence to say like, I need to explore me and, and be me. 0 (19m 9s): And, you know, kudos to my ex. We have a, we have a decent relationship. Like he was okay staying in a, in a relationship that was less than ideal, but I wasn't. And so I think once you, you get sort of a taste of what it's like to be independent and it's not easy. I mean, I'm 61, I'm single, I don't wanna be alone for the rest of my life. I have moments of, I never have moments of regret that I got divorced, but I do have moments of fear that what if I'm alone for the rest of my life and it's not something I want. And so I work on trying to find other ways to fulfill my life. And I, I, like, I'm on those dating apps, like, and I, I'm very intentional and I'm, I am, you know, now a little more discriminating. And I've learned a lot about myself over these last 10 years that have, has have helped me grow as a person and have helped me try to find partners that are more, more appropriate for me and that are in the right place as well. 0 (19m 59s): Like, you attract where you are and it's a choice. I mean, do you wanna live, you know, we, we we're living a long life. Do you wanna live a long life in an un unhappy situation and just tolerate it and deal, you know, enjoy what you can outside of that? Or do you wanna see if maybe there's, there is something, and I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to do it and not every person has it. And I respect those people who stay in those relationships. I guess I was, I was, you know, it wasn't easy, but it, but I got there over many years and I'm YiIVEM like I said, no regrets. I mean, I'm, I'm so blessed and lucky and grateful and I'm grateful for him and for the marriage and I, I look at every relationship I have had since then as a learning, you know, a lot of people feel like divorce is failure. 0 (20m 41s): I do not think of my divorce as a failure. I think it was meant to be the, what it was. We were both young, we were, we were compatible at the time. We changed or, or maybe he didn't change and I changed, but whatever, whatever it was, we were different. Very different people. And, and now I get to do other things and get to meet other people and get to explore other parts of me and other types of people. And when they don't work out, it's still sad, but at least it's like, okay, what did I learn from this experience and what can I take from it to enhance my life moving forward? 1 (21m 11s): So dating, what is that like, do you have any advice for anyone that is also on the apps and how to, I guess, like, set yourself up for success on these dates and then I would and then well, I'll let you answer that before I ask 0 (21m 27s): The second question. So I'm gonna start with saying like, what is your definition of success for some, you know, people, I, I think your expectations should be, this is my, like my should. I'm looking to meet new people and make new friendships. If you go into any, any get on any app or in any relationship with, I am looking for my soulmate, this person is like, we're gonna be compatible on every single level. He's gonna be involved, I'm gonna be involved, his kids are gonna be perfect. Everything in his li you know, that's just not realistic. So I would say like approach it with, with honesty and integrity because I believe how you show up is what you attract. Be discriminating, but also be open-minded. 0 (22m 10s): And I, you know, I have never been a, you know, I've been out there, I've had kissed a lot of frogs, as they say, and I've had a lot of, you know, interesting relationships. It just didn't work out. But I have never gotten to the point where it's like all men suck and, you know, I hate the dating apps. Like, I believe in it. I I believe in love. I, I, you know, I know that that a person, several people, whatever it's gonna be in the rest of my life is out there. And I think that's the attitude we should have. That being said, I do know, and I've heard this from women too, a lot of people just get on the apps to, to get the likes, but they're not really serious. And I think that's the part that makes it hard for people like us who are serious, but interesting. Yeah. So, 1 (22m 48s): So when you are, when you're dating and you're kind of vetting each other out and seeing how you, you work with each other, do you find it, do you find that it's difficult for a lot of men to be open to these conversations around sexuality and pleasure? I sometimes struggle talking about it, which is so crazy given like my past. But I feel like I also feed off of whoever I'm, I'm talking with. But I, I think for men specifically talking about like, what do you like, this is what I like, these are my expectations for the relationship. Do you find that that lack of vulnerability is common with men? Or do you, like, is that selection helping with that? 0 (23m 27s): It depends. In the last like year I've had some interesting experiences and, and you know, like my, my life coach says, you know, like, you know, like, you know, and if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no. But I never trust that. I'm like, no, no, no. Maybe it's a, it's a maybe it's a maybe, but she's been right every single time. And what I found for me, I mean I I I clearly, you know, probably like you, I we, we can pro talk with anybody about anything, but we still have our, our in, you know, our, our fears and whatever. So I've been finding that the men that I tend to connect better with, like once I tell them what I do, 'cause I, I don't tell them on the apps, especially because it's dealing with sex. I don't, there are people out there that believe just because you talk about sex, you must have this crazy wild sex life. 0 (24m 12s): I actually had one guy, you know, question. I mean you didn't, you haven't done this and you haven't done this. And I'm like, no, I, I know about it. I talk about it. It's not my practice, but, and I respect it. But, so I think that if you can't talk to me about what I do right up front, then you're probably not, we're probably not gonna connect. 'cause it's a very vulnerable sex is a very vulnerable thing to talk about. And so I, I hope that, you know, the people that I connect with have some emotional maturity, which, you know, that's a hard thing to do, especially for, for men, sadly, then that is who I will connect with. And you know, I, I've heard I'm, I'm, sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised too, but I do know like if, if I tell someone what, what I do and they change the subject very quickly that they probably have an issue talking about it and it's probably not gonna work. 1 (24m 60s): So I guess getting back to some of like the changes that happen, physiology, physiologically for women. Yes. What was it that you found that helped you with the not being able to achieve orgasm? 0 (25m 14s): So it was a few things. One was that I was low in testosterone and they also put me on, I, I forget what kind of antidepressant it is, but it's, it's a do one that gives you dopamine. And so that combination helped. And then I didn't understand that you needed clitoral stimulation, so oh wow, this is my, this is a clitoris. So we, we all should know that most women cannot or orgasm from penetrative sex alone. And I, when, when they started asking me about it, they're like, do you need clitoral stimulation? It didn't occur to me until I started to really think about how I used to have intercourse. And yes, the clitoral stimulation was important. 0 (25m 55s): And so once I got that like straight, I'm like, okay, now we know how this works and how important this is. And the vi you know, bringing the vibrators and, and put that all together and yeah, now, now it's all working really well. But I also, one of the journey, you know, part of this journey of becoming a sex educator, what I've learned a lot is like my definition of sex has really changed. And that's actually one of the questions I always ask on my podcast is, what is your definition of sex? And I found Chris Donahue's definition like, so interesting because sex, the way we always thought about it was like, okay, like we're doing this foreplay so that we can get into the bed and so that we can have penetrative sex so that he can, he can ejaculate. 0 (26m 35s): Maybe I'll have an orgasm. Where now, like just the whole experience of being with somebody has become the, the erotic experience, essential experience, the sexual experience like that is part of part of it. And so the what, whatever the issues are, they're, they become less important. I mean, a lot of men, you know, what is the statistics? 40, 40% of men at 40 will in their forties will have ed erectile dysfunction, 50 in their fifties, et cetera. So men will start to have issues too. And like you just wanna open up how you have sex to, to, to expand the, the definition. And sometimes it's just kissing. Sometimes it's, you know, it's taking a shower together. Sometimes it's mutual masturbation. 0 (27m 14s): It doesn't have to be the thing and maybe there's other ways to do it. And so once you kind of explore different ideas, then whatever the limitations are kind of, they're just there. 1 (27m 27s): Do you have any advisor, have you worked with a lot of women that feel guilty if they use any kind of clitoral stimulation, especially if they need a toy? Or do you get, have you heard a lot of negative feedback from men with that too? Because YiIVEM know so many guys that get really intimidated when you bring anything electric into the room. Like, I'm not good enough. Or like, what's wrong with you that you, that you need this or that you need this right now. And there it seems to be like this competitive relationship that they have with toys or even if you're touching yourself because they don't understand that like, 90% of women need that. So it's not like you're not good enough. Right. It's just, it's how the mechanics work, my friend. Right, 0 (28m 3s): Right. It's very interesting that you're asking me that question because I have, I hear that a lot from younger women. I find like the older men and women, like we all know things aren't working. And so I ha I look, I was the first time I was telling someone, so there were, there are a couple things physically, like I, I'm on hormone therapy, I have an estrogen patch that I, that you wear between your vulva and your belly button. So I'm like, when you get there, you're gonna find a sticker. So that's like the first thing that I was ashamed to say. And then I'm like, and, and by the way, I need a vibrator. And I have not had a single man say like, really, I, it's like, oh, let me try it. You know? So I think because they know that there's gonna be challenges in their, in their ability as well that I guess as you age, you know, being single and, and maybe it's the men that I, that I've been choosing that are just a little more open-minded. 0 (28m 51s): So Yeah. And I think that's changing too because I speak to a lot of very young women who are all like, they're, you know, all into sex toys and bringing different things. And so I think, I hope it's changing. 1 (29m 2s): Yeah. Maybe I'm running into the wrong guys then. 'cause a lot of them are, they take personal offense to it. And then I guess bringing it up before you get into the situation is probably helpful too, so that you're not like taking le aback if like they didn't have time to process, then it's gonna be so like, you were like, I have a patch. I'm gonna use a toy. Right. So like maybe getting that outta the way in the beginning. If I know some women that cannot achieve orgasm without a toy, it's just, and they're younger too, it's just they have other stuff going on. Yep. They just like need that little force multiplier if you'll Right. Right. And so it's non-negotiable for those women. So it, it would make sense to just bring that up beforehand so that everyone can kind of like go through their process and go through their feelings and like, this is what we're doing together. It's gonna be a great time. 0 (29m 42s): Or it can just be one of those things like, you know, you kind of titillating like, I get something that I'm gonna bring into, into the bedroom and this could be kind of fun for us. I mean there's all sorts of, there's like the, the toys where like the other part, one partner can control it and you know, the other partner can be wearing it. I mean there's so many fun things that you can do with it that I think it's almost, it's eyeopening too. It's like, oh wow. Like I didn't know these things. Like, you know, I have one partner that is all into the, it's just discovered like anal plugs and it's like he's all over them. And I'm like, you go boy. Like, you know, like go for like if that's what works for you. That's an interesting thing that I am, that I discovered is, and I guess I'd never really explored that much, but men that feel that if you try anal play that, that means they're gay. 1 (30m 27s): I know a lot of guys that believe that probably 90% of 'em 0 (30m 31s): They're missing out. Like 1 (30m 32s): It being gay. It matters who's doing the thing. Like if a woman's doing the thing, like that's not gay because it's a woman doing the thing. 0 (30m 41s): And one of the things that I've learned in this program is that just because a man has sex with a man does not make him gay either. 1 (30m 49s): I don't know if I agree with that one. Yeah. That one I don't know if I agree with. I think it, if you do that and you're like, oh that was awful, I didn't like it, then that would be the caveat. But I think if you did it and you like it, like that falls under that umbrella to me. Okay. That's how I would define it. Yeah. Yeah. That one I'm like, same sex. Same sex. Like traditionally that is how we have always defined that word. 0 (31m 9s): But when you, when we, I don't know, you may feel differently, but when two women have sex, but you're traditionally have been with a man, would you consider them gay? 1 (31m 19s): It depends on why they're having the sex. I think a lot of women have sex with other women performatively and they do it for like the arousal of like a male partner. And then there are women that do it because of their, like their pure attraction to a woman. So I think intent would have to factor in, men don't do that. Men don't like perform for women in that way sexually. 'cause like most, it's just not a, it's not something I think we've been evolved for like men, men perform through like direction conquering, building, protecting. Like these are things that like women have always valued. Women haven't traditionally valued sex appeal from men. Which is why you can see, like, you'll usually see more of like a discrepancy I think with dating where like the man doesn't necessarily need to be good looking, but he'll have all of these other factors that tradit like feminine people traditionally value. 1 (32m 6s): Right. And they're like, why is she with him? And you know, he's probably got all of these other things that like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Right. But men value beauty, so, and men value sexuality. So I think that's why a lot of women tend to like make out at bars after a couple of drinks. 'cause they know it's gonna get a rise out of the guise. Like, you don't see men doing that for women 'cause it's not rewarded. If it was rewarded, they'd probably do it. So if you saw like a huge shift in the culture and in like bio, like biological drivers and all of a sudden women were like just drooling over two guys then. Right. You know, they'd probably be doing that for sure. And then we would probably change that definition of, okay, being with a man is not gay anymore. Interesting. 'cause the intent 0 (32m 41s): Very interesting. Okay. I 1 (32m 45s): Alternative take. Yeah. 0 (32m 46s): No, no. 'cause I always had the take that you had and then I just felt like, like what I've learned in this program has kind of opened my mind to that's not always the case. Like what if I just tried it and I was a man. But I hear you. So 1 (32m 56s): Let's talk about your podcast. How long have you been doing it? 0 (32m 60s): I started it about a year ago, September. Okay. It's called Taboo to Truth, unapologetic conversations about sexuality and midlife. And I started it to talk, just to start talking about my own journey. I literally recorded in my phone and I said to my girlfriend, what do you think? And she's like, just do it, you know, and I press a button and then it evolved into more. So I, I talk about, you know, what's happened with me physically, what I just, my journey. I talk about my, my dating situation. I interview sex therapists and, and I couples who have opened their marriage and trying to remember, I've talked about hormone therapy. YiIVEM interviewed a bunch of doctors who are specializing in midlife sexual dysfunction. 0 (33m 41s): I've got kink coaches or you know, sex coaches and counselors and all kinds of people. And it's just the general theme is midlife sexuality. But that is, it's been kind of broad and it's, people are really receptive. I find like there's not a lot of people talking about the intersection of sex and midlife because like you said, from in the very beginning, there's a lot of people that just feel like, well that's why would I even talk about it? You know? So I I think it's, it's just been so much fun and it's so interesting and people are so receptive. And what's what's most amazing for me is that the last business I had, I, I did some stuff in between, but I was a divorce coach and people like will tell you there were stories, but to, to like, you didn't get receptivity amongst the attorneys and the therapists and to, to really like, help embrace and, and make a better experience, if you will. 0 (34m 35s): Or less, less wor less bad experience for someone going through divorce. But in this world, everybody, you know, no matter how, how famous you are, how well known you are, how experienced you are, the fact that I am not like, has had no impact. Like, I'm so glad at the end of every interview it's like, I'm so glad you're doing this because it's so needed. And, and so I feel, you know, I'm, I, I found my purpose, but my purpose is bigger than, than me. It's, it's really what, you know, what we need as, as we need to be talking about this. We need to be talking about our changes, you know, the menopause conversations getting a bit louder, which is great. And now we need to parlay it into the sex conversation because there's no, we're all having sex hopefully, or we were, and we should be having more of it. 0 (35m 18s): And it's just part of life and there's nothing to be ashamed about. 1 (35m 21s): So, last question. Okay. Do you find that people tend to get kinkier or more explorative as they get older? 0 (35m 29s): I think it depends. I think, I know that swinging tends to be more common. Younger people who've gone to swinging parties have told me that the, the population swing swings older up on the pun. So I think it, I, I hope they do, I hope people get more exploitative because that's what keeps, keeps it alive. And it doesn't mean you need to participate. You can just go and go to a sex club and watch. You don't have to go in there and start, you know, having sex with somebody. You can go to a, a dungeon and watch whatever, whatever floats your boat. Or you can try new things. You can dip your toe just like anything else and just try it. I think it's, it's a great opportunity to really, you know, explore and, you know, start a new chapter. 1 (36m 9s): Yeah. I, what I see is it's, it tends to swing older as well. And one of my friends is very involved in all of those alternative spaces and she does cruises and all, like, you name it, she does it and all of these things are naked and swinging and open and all the, and all of that. And she says every year there's this 180 5-year-old lady and she's just there hanging out and she's having the time of her life, her and her husband. And they're not necessarily involved in anything, but they just like to be around it and like, see it and have that energy from other people. So I'm like, yeah, maybe when I'm 80, I just won't need this. She's like, Candace, I wanna be so sure at the places I'm going. It, it's all, all ages and there is no expiration date, date. So I think, yeah, the work is great. 1 (36m 51s): People need to remember like, we don't cease to exist after menopause or after a certain age. And that you're still valuable. Your sexuality is valuable. So thank you very much. And before we wrap up, do you wanna give the listeners and the viewers all of your socials where they can follow you and how they can support you? 0 (37m 7s): Yeah, so the, the podcast is taboototruth Unapologetic Conversations of Sexuality Midlife, and it's on any podcast platform that you may listen to. I also have the YouTube channel at at taboototruth and Instagram, handle at taboototruth and a website taboototruth dot com. Amazing. 1 (37m 24s): Thank you so much. Thank you. 0 (37m 26s): Bye everybody.