#143 Is Your Relationship Killing Your Sex Life? Expert Reveal with Dr. Chris Donaghue

0 (0s): And I'm shaking like a leaf. I'm so nervous. I had not been with many men in my personal life, so this was like a huge jump for me. And he pulled me aside and he's like, 1 (10s): Some individuals, they're using sex as a form of coping and that's acceptable. And that's appropriate. 0 (14s): Is that 'cause YiIVEM, I hear some people are like, you need a coping mechanism. There's something wrong and broken with you. 1 (20s): Anything that's deemed to be an addiction, you want to ask, what's the deeper word? 0 (24s): What would you say to someone that says porn ruins more marriages and families than help 1 (29s): To deal with the anxiety that can come up when your partner says, I also enjoy body shapes and sizes that aren't yours, which can be very threatening to someone who's toxically monogamous. 0 (39s): When I started to see couples that were in porn, like legacy porn stars and they were in these deep committed relationships and that was shocking to me. 1 (48s): But some people see relationality as I own you and your body even when it doesn't involve someone else. And I can be upset if you're masturbating. I can be upset at what you're looking at. And that's problematic. 0 (59s): I think it's abusive. Chris, thank you so much for being here. I'm, I'm really excited for this. You pulled through an amazing five hours on day one, so kudos. You obviously know your stuff. To be able to go for that long, we 1 (1m 13s): Have to thank caffeine. Yeah. It's like what gives me the motivation to go and I think it's always about the crowd as well. People, it's such a diverse sect of people that are in the audience and the questions and the energy kind of moves me. So anyway, but thank you for being here as 0 (1m 27s): Well. Yeah, yeah, of course. I'm like, where do we start? And I guess let's start on the fringes. Sure. With you, what does sex outside the lines look like? What does existing on the fringes of, whether it's society, sexuality, identity, what does that look like? I 1 (1m 42s): Love the question. I clinically really got my start in the work around sexuality, within the sex addiction world. And I kind of talked about this yesterday a little bit. A lot of the things that we were being trained to use to diagnose a sex addiction in someone were things that myself and other really healthy individuals were doing. So I started to notice that we very much pathologize what's on the fringe. And that's where I actually believe a lot of mental health and authenticity lives. I think conformity is not a sign of health. Most people move through the world either doing what we're supposed to do or what everyone else is doing. Authoritarianism or conformism. And I think authenticity is really a good guide for mental health. 1 (2m 24s): And so when I wrote my first book Sex Outside the Lines, I really wanted to kind of honor that. I wanted content and form to align. I wanted the name, I wanted the languaging, I wanted the concepts and individuals that I work with clinically are those that feel on the fringes. And because of that, really don't feel as though they fit in or they can be seen as mentally healthy. And so one of the istic missions in my work is to really normalize diverse creative ways of being. Mm. 0 (2m 51s): So when you have someone and you have like this large cultural narrative that there is sex addiction and there is porn addiction. Yes. What are your opinions on that? 'cause I don't think that's what it is. I think it's more of a compulsion issue or some kind of avoidance, like a a means of avoidance. What, what's your take on this? I agree. 1 (3m 9s): I think that's very much what it is. There's some individuals that, I think what they deem to be a sex addiction is shame around what they're turned on by. And so all they really need is psychoeducation. Yeah. And to have it normalized that what you're interested in is quite okay. And a wealth of people also might seek that out. I try to, in my work and in some of my presentations, use stats from porn search engines to show people that the majority of what people are looking for is very colorful, diverse stuff. And that can be very normalizing. Other individuals, it's about their rate of use. And some people have a higher sex drive, some people have more free time, some individuals, they're using sex as a form of coping and and that's acceptable. And that's appropriate. 0 (3m 49s): Is that, 'cause YiIVEM, I hear some people are like, you need a coping mechanism. There's something wrong and broken with you. Yeah. 1 (3m 54s): There's this idea culturally that we should always be able to turn to ourselves. And I think that that would be phenomenal. But often life will throw something at us that is far bigger than what we have the internal resources to deal with. And I like the idea of us turning to people co-regulation and using relationships and friends and family members and partners to kind of process and to hold us and to get us through. And I, I also think sometimes we need to use things like jogging, reading, meditation, sexuality as a way to soothe our nervous system and to kind of bring us back down. And I think that there's gotta be an acceptability in that. But as you know, sex is always a special case. You could fill in the blank with any form of soothing and people probably find a way to make that make sense. 1 (4m 34s): Shopping, exercising, food, even at times. Although that's a punchy one. Yeah. But sex, they're like, hold on a minute. You know what I mean? That can't be okay. And I also saw that a lot of sex workers or individuals that were using sex workers that inherently was seen often as a sex addiction, that there could be no other way to conceptualize that, that career or that or that use. And I think that's a really important part of the sex addiction, you know, challenge. But compulsivity exists for sure. There are people that food, exercise, shopping can just feel a little out of control to them. And so there, there can be some really beautiful healing work in looking at what it is they're seeking in those activities. And are there other healthier, maybe more sustainable ways to get those needs met? 0 (5m 16s): And is there an element or any kind of correlation between narcissism, like actual narcissism and sex addiction? Like quote sex addiction? Yeah. 1 (5m 24s): Narcissism is a funny word, right? Because we sling that around. 0 (5m 27s): It's overused so much. Yeah. 1 (5m 28s): Yeah. If you do something I'm upset by You're a narcissist. 0 (5m 30s): No, I mean like, I mean in the diagnosable way, like someone who's actually diagnosed. 1 (5m 34s): Yes. Thank you for saying it like that. Yes. Yeah. 'cause I think we really kind of sling it around 0 (5m 37s): Like, you're a jerk, you must be a narciss. Like, no, we all have a little bit of that. If you take that dark triad, everyone's gonna have a percentage in all of that. Doesn't mean you're broken. Doesn't mean you're bad. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. It's, it's very normal. But to actually be diagnosed, that is a totally different animal. Yes. Yes. 1 (5m 50s): Completely clinical. Yes. And is there a connection to that in sex addiction? I'm sorry, ask your question again. 0 (5m 55s): So is there, do you see a correlation between actual narcissist diagnosed narcissist and sex addiction? Because I've, I've had friends that were with someone that was acclaimed sex addict. And what I see is just narcissistic behavior. I don't, there's, there's so many steps that, that are required to hire somebody. And that was this, this person's modality. So he was just using professionals constantly all the time. I'm like, that's a lot of work. That's a lot of money. And he just seems to not give a shit about your feelings. It just seems to be like zero empathy. So for me, I see just more narcissistic behavior. Yes. And not this 1 (6m 28s): Other thing, right? Because the question could be, why is this individual unable or unwilling to seek out sexuality in some form that doesn't require them to have control via payment or service provided what is the inner deeper work? And that's why I love using sex therapeutically because I think that question is what brings us into the deeper pieces. What is that? Why is that person engaging in that process? And is there diagnoses that is getting unaddressed when we just focus on maybe being sex addiction? Is that person have, do they have intimacy phobia again? Do they need to be in control because vulnerability is something that's scary to them. How then does that play out outside of sex? How, how good of a friend could they be? How good of a boss could they be if they're not able to be intimate, to be vulnerable, to honor other forms of relationality? 1 (7m 14s): Because you're right, sex worker use could sometimes be sociopathy, it could be narcissism, it could be a host of things. And so I, that question is, is powerful. 0 (7m 23s): And I think what's like the most important thing, and kind of why I'm tying that in is what frustrates me about this misuse of the terms porn addiction and sex addiction. It's not me saying that people don't have problems with these things. They absolutely do. I would be lying if I was pretending that that's not a thing or there's not some kind of population that does suffer from this. But you're actually doing those people such a disservice if you're saying that it's one thing when it's really this other thing that needs to be healed and addressed. Because if you're saying, oh well it's as simple as just not watching the porn. I feel like, and you can speak to this 'cause you're the professional in the room, but if you just simply say it's just a sex problem and you get rid of the sex or it's just a porn problem and get rid of the porn, it's gonna mutate into something else. That's 1 (8m 1s): Right. That's a beautifully said and that's a great actually soundbite for some of the work I try to do, which is anything that's deemed to be an addiction. You want to ask what's the deeper wound, right that is getting played out? What is the deeper wound within which they're turning to shopping over use of exercise or sexuality? And you're correct, if we don't go deeper and figure out what they're turning to those things as a way to heal or avoid it will get placed onto another process. And that's what you'll see happen unfortunately in drug and alcohol recovery and quote unquote sex addiction recovery. They are maybe abstinent from drugs and alcohol. They may be no longer engaging in that problematic sex, but it gets transferred onto food or shopping or gambling or something else. 1 (8m 46s): And this person feels healthy because they're no longer using drugs and alcohol or sex problematically. But it's just now pushed onto something else. 0 (8m 53s): So if you have somebody that is spending, let's say eight hours a day watching pornography, they're avoiding their family or their spouse, their responsibilities where like, I guess what are actionable steps for this person to try to, to live in a healthier way? 1 (9m 9s): Yeah. Yeah. I love that question. I, I turn to the word mindfulness, asking yourself in the moment where I feel compelled to turn to whatever this thing is for me. And in this example of sex, what need are you trying to get met? And then the second question is, is there another way in which you can get that need met that might have no longer term negative consequences or problems tied to it? So I'll tell clients when they're working on more, more mindful porn use or masturbation, before you turn to it, say to yourself, am I horny? Am I bored? Am I lonely? If you're horny, great. That's a healthy use of that. It's a sexual outlet. If you're bored, maybe try to find some other way to engage yourself and stimulate yourself. 1 (9m 50s): Not because it's wrong to sometimes use sex or porn, but I want people to have a full range of coping mechanisms. Right. That fluidity, that flexibility. That's a sign of health. Biologically, neurologically, sexually options, choices. If you only have one thing to turn to, you don't have choice. That's rigidity. That's not health. 0 (10m 7s): And super fragile. Yeah, a 1 (10m 8s): Hundred percent. So ask yourself like, what is this moment about? What got triggered? What am I turning to this to do? And like I said, if it's horniness, great, just like if you're hungry, turn to food. But if you're bored or you're lonely or something else, find another way to maybe meet that need. 0 (10m 22s): Yeah. I entirely agree. I wanted, I don't know how this came into my, my mind, but the topic of incel, so the topic I know it just, it popped right? Let's go there. Popped in. So I'm like, I gotta take it. So there's this idea that there's always been a population of usually younger men that weren't able to partner up for some reason, they don't have a sexual outlet. And without that sexual outlet, they became very destructive. So what a lot of these countries would do, this is back in the day, is they would send them to war. So a lot of these vikings, it's suggested were weren't like these interesting big, sexy guys that had everything that they wanted. They were actually the problematic men that weren't being able to partnered up. So they would actually channel that sexual energy and rage in a useful way, which was war and conquering. 0 (11m 4s): So now we have this group of men that still exists and it's like, what do you do with them? And you see them online. It's very, at least in my, in my space, they're 1 (11m 13s): Online. I'm sure you 0 (11m 14s): Do. It's unavoidable. I'm sorry. You do. And what's, what's so funny, and what I find to be such a, like just an oxymoron is a lot of people blame porn for them. So we're pretending that they didn't exist before. So we're saying the reason that they're not able to couple up or have sexual access is because they're spending too much time on porn. But then if they don't have access, like a sexual outlet, that they're become more violent. So then it's like, if well you take away the porn, isn't that gonna be more of a problem? So have you seen a connection between involuntary celibacy and porn consumption, or do you think that that group has kind of always existed? 1 (11m 47s): So before I answer that, let me go back to the connection between what you just posed and what we just talked about. Because I think, think it's again, not looking at the real wound. Okay. Right. And blaming the manifestation or the form of coping for that wound. Right. It's not that porn causes the problem, it's that people have cer. It's that people who have certain problems turn to porn. And this group specifically, who doesn't have the access they think they deserve to females or specific females then turn to porn because that's where they do. Right. So it's like you can't blame where they go for solution, right. As having created the problem. That's their attempt to solve that problem. But pose your question to me again. The the forced celibacy. 0 (12m 28s): Yeah. So in cell is involuntary celibacy. Right? Right. So you, it's, it tends to be this group of men that just don't have access to women for some reason. Which 1 (12m 36s): Is a question itself in there. Involuntary celibacy. I would want someone to ask themselves why, why is that? Why have I been unable to find connection and sexuality out in the world? And it isn't because of women. And it like, I want people to do that 0 (12m 53s): Internal work, which does blame women. Of course. 1 (12m 55s): Yeah. Right. And I want them to do the internal work of why am I unable to make meaningful connections that can lead to sexuality. Right. Yeah. 'cause I think they're, that's where mental health comes in. I think mental health is relational health. And I think it's in our relationships and our relational struggles that we really see where our work is. Right. What a beautiful mirror. Yeah. Every time someone upsets us or triggers us or there's an issue in our relationship, I 0 (13m 17s): Look at yourself. I love that part of your talk. So you, you were like, if, if you feel triggered, people hate 1 (13m 22s): This, 0 (13m 22s): If you feel triggered, it is not on the person that triggered you. That's right. It is for your job to go inside and say, Hey, why am I being triggered? And you do the work. It's not my job to not trigger you. It's your job not to be triggered. Like finding the 1 (13m 33s): Problem's, not the 0 (13m 34s): Trigger. Finding someone saying that. 1 (13m 35s): Yeah. And I think this topic really very much aligns with that. Go inside and ask yourself why was that specifically disruptive to me before I point the finger at that? Which disrupted me? Because ideally you learn to be less triggerable. We can't live in a world where we're trying to remove every trigger. There's gonna be sharp objects that you're gonna bump into and healthy people go inside first. And so whenever I talk about sexuality publicly, I pose that because I know it's gonna throw a lot of people off. 'cause I say some things that are a little innovative, punchy. 'cause I want people to really think, and I really want people to walk away transformed from my work. And so with, you know, the audience being so vast, there's gonna be some triggers for people and I want them to turn inside and I want them, you know, people that are involuntarily forced into, you know, celibacy to also ask themselves how has that come to be? 1 (14m 20s): And are there other areas in my life that might align with some of this? 0 (14m 24s): Yeah, I totally agree. And I think once someone gets stuck in this blame victim loophole, it's very hard to get out of. And that energy is palpable. So if you have someone that is just so angry and blames everyone else for their situation, like you can feel that and then it, it just, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. 1 (14m 40s): And then when you surround yourself with others in the same situation, yes you amplify and you feed it. And that is even more dangerous and destructive. 0 (14m 48s): Right. So if you find yourself in that community, I would say exit very quickly. That's right. That's right. Exit. Very quickly, I wanna make sure that I word this properly. Oh, this one was interesting where you were talking about that we have sex to our level of development. And I loved that. 1 (15m 8s): It's another really 0 (15m 9s): Powerful statement sometimes. I've never heard that. 1 (15m 11s): What did that mean for you when you heard it? What came up for 0 (15m 13s): You? For me, it went right to vulnerability and intimacy. And I guess this ties into the other thing that we were talking about earlier before we started recording, which is the sexual style. So I don't dunno if this is how you intended it to come across, but this is how I took it. When you got into sensational focus, to me that's entry for me, that was entry level. So I can feel things and I can enjoy pleasure, but I can't look at you and I can't have you really looking at me. So eyes are closed and it, it's just this exchange. Then you go into relational intimacy and that's eyes open, partner oriented. Like, are you enjoying this? Are you enjoying me? And it's, it's more of this 1 (15m 47s): Developmental, 0 (15m 48s): Yeah, it's like this collective embodiment. We're now dancing together and it's a different level of intimacy. And then you got into role play or kink. And I was like, well, I'm not all the way there. Sometimes I can get in the place. I might need like a drink to get there. And really shed some of that like insecurity. So for me it was almost an elevation, a hierarchy of development, of vulnerability and intimacy. 1 (16m 10s): Beautiful structural analysis because that, that is in fact very accurate and a beautiful model for someone to, as you just did, self-assess where they are and what, what could be meaningful. Because it's never to imply that there's anything wrong with monogamy or more, you know, what we'd call vanilla basic sex. There's no hierarchy in all of that. But I do think there's something interesting in that question of what would it require? But to go back to the core statement of we have sex up to our current level of development. I'm gonna be talking a lot about that actually tomorrow. That's like the core of tomorrow's talk. Sexual bypassing. Amazing. And just to kind of keep this dialogue moving, it's this whole idea that, believe it or not, how people currently define their sexuality, most likely probably isn't. 1 (16m 56s): What they're actually saying is that which I'm doing is within my level of current comfort. And to push on those boundaries makes me too anxious. And so I'm gonna stay safe. That's not inherently bad or wrong, but it's when people really reify or make absolute an identity as though they aren't anything and there's no room to move beyond that. Right. And people do that with sexual identity and even in the sex world, they'll say things like, I'm a, I'm a sub, I'm a dumb, I'm a top, I'm a bottom. No, you are most comfortable in those positions and in those roles that doesn't mean you have to do work to expand beyond them. But let's just recognize that yes, you fused with those, that's your safe space. But there is a world in which if you wanted to do that developmental work, you could find your way into another role. 1 (17m 41s): Mm. 0 (17m 42s): I love that so much. And I also like that you kind of, it, it's like you're tossing out identity. And I, I, yes. 1 (17m 50s): Thank you for hearing that. That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I dunno how this is gonna, but that's a punchy statement to say to people, I'm throwing out identity. 0 (17m 55s): It's so necessary because I, everything is always an overcorrection. It's this pendulum, right? I don't like this overcorrect. Ooh, I don't like that overcorrect. Yeah. And then you need someone to kind of just like shatter the model and say, neither of these things is right. So we had this place where, and I feel like most of it's gone, but like you couldn't be gay like that. That was like even in my lifetime you couldn't be gay. Gay marriage is still really new. I feel like that is so massively accepted. I think most Americans now support gay marriage and gay rights. But because of how restrictive everything was in the past eighties, nineties, two thousands now everything has to be an identity. And to me, what pisses me off is like, well you're not that thing. That's right. And you're putting yourself in such a box. 0 (18m 36s): And then also it's, it seems like a play of significance as well. Because when you get into a place where if you can make it more niche and more niche and more niche, it's like, well now that's where I'm garnishing my significance and my uniqueness. Instead of actually just being your unique self. Yes. Which is probably more scary and more challenging. Yes. So if you say, I'm not any of these things, I'm a whole person and I changed minute to minute and there's this, I think it's an Alan Watts quote and he has no, I have no obligation to be who I was five minutes ago. 1 (19m 3s): And what a and for me, and and it sounds like for you as well, what a, what a beautiful sentiment. What a beautiful honest rule. Because to foreclose the possibility of something other than or or to be, to always be, be becoming is is is I think a lack of mental health. I think we have to get rid of identity. Yes. It's confining. People overly buy into it. They see it as absolute, they see it as, yeah, I guess reified these higher natural and, and I want people to get rid of identity and I want them to challenge themselves to step outside. Yeah. 0 (19m 33s): I love that so much. And I don't think enough people are doing that. 'cause again, I think it's coming from a good place. Everyone's like honor everyone's experience. Yes. And all of that. But it, I see it as like people are just taking their legs out from, from themselves. 1 (19m 45s): And that's why I use the word sexual bypassing. I wanna to get that into the world more because we, there's books on the concept, spiritual bypassing, which is when you use spiritual concepts to avoid actually doing the work, right? Oh well I'm meditating. Right? But you're still a jerk out in the world. So clearly there's a lack of application and people do that as we just kind of talked about briefly sexually. 0 (20m 4s): Yeah. It's, it's instead of feeling the thing and allowing that natural process, well I see oneness. So it's all okay. And it's like you're skipping a lot of steps in between. That's right. And yeah. Yeah. 1 (20m 15s): We do that in a lot of areas of our life to our detriment. 0 (20m 18s): So I guess the levels of vulnerability and being able to get to a place where you are open and receptive and curious and you wanna expand where your current state of development is. How does one do that? 1 (20m 32s): Yeah. First you gotta be brave. Yeah. Because you know, you're pushing outside of what you've known and how others know you and to shift your own identity is to shift your location in the world. For some people, and I said this and it feels very vulnerable to say this and, and I'll say this with you, I feel very safe with you. 0 (20m 49s): Thank you. 1 (20m 51s): You know, I've, I've lived in many different sexual worlds and different sexual identities and none of them ever felt truly like home because of what we just talked about. There's an echo chamber and there's boundaries. So when I was part of the hetero community, I never felt like I fit in. And no one ever talked about pushing on those boundaries. When I spent time maybe in the gay community, it was very much the same thing. I didn't see myself there. I didn't relate to the values and the norms and no one challenged me to engage or explore sexuality with women. And it's that confinement. So there's gotta be some bravery encouraged to step outside of an identity because then you have to self define. And we don't like that. We like everything to be clear and defined and it's gonna change your relationship to other people in the world. 1 (21m 35s): Maybe your primary partner and family members. But back to your question, like where's the work really begin? I think it's first on acknowledging that who I see myself to be as maybe more of a habit and a pattern and it's, it's confined within what's comfortable and to step outside makes me anxious. I try to do work when I do psychotherapy as a sex therapist where we look at people's arousal template, which looks at their fantasy and what they engage in with pornography to try to understand other parts of themselves. And we start to ask questions as to why do you have the sex you have, what would it mean or what would it feel like to challenge some of those identities? So I have them start to look at those identities, right? Who are you as sexual being? What part of you is drawn to that? 1 (22m 16s): What would it mean to step outside of that practicing stepping outside of that. So it's a lot of that like internal work and questioning and sometimes it's very experiential. What I like about porn when used correctly is that it can be a space to practice where you don't have to step outside your home or own what it is you're stepping into. But it's a way to explore and see how that feels. Mm. Also works that way for couples. I work with some couples that want to maybe think about bringing in another partner or they like the idea of it but don't like the idea of it. And porn's a way to practice seeing your partner turned on by something other than you. Or to bring another in symbolically. So porn can take, you know, can play a role in that. But again, it really goes back to asking yourself, who do I see myself to be? 1 (22m 58s): And to find some areas to push on those boundaries, push on those edges. 0 (23m 4s): So talking about mindful uses of porn. Yes. And how you are using it as almost like a prescription in these cases. That's gonna sound crazy to some people because they think it did gimme it first. It's only de it's only degrading and it's only harmful. Right. So would you, what would you say to someone that says porn ruins more marriages and families than helps? Yeah. Would you say that that's true or 1 (23m 26s): I would go back to what we said earlier, which is don't blame what people try to use as a solution. Don't blame that and and scapegoat that as though that is the problem. Right. And what I mean is in a lot of the couples I've worked with, if the relationship is feeling good and the sex is feeling good, they don't necessarily feel the need to choose porn over their partner and or they can at least talk to their partner about why they're making that decision. Right. And bring their partner into that dialogue. And then that also becomes diagnostic. If you can't talk about that as a couple, well we have some work to do. Absolutely. I want you to be able to talk ly about really vulnerable, deeper topics and that's a way to start that work. So I don't wanna blame what people again as the solution. And again, porn is such an easy scapegoat and, and I see that the way I see drugs and alcohol and overuse at the overuse of the gym and shopping is it's a way people try to cope with wounds and dysregulation and often an inability to honestly talk to their partner or whomever about what needs to really be processed and discussed. 0 (24m 26s): One of the things that I love that you said yesterday, we were talking about sexual maturity and is your partners sexually mature enough to present them with certain information? Yes. I was like, whoa, that's amazing. This is always shocking when I say or someone hears it. For the first time I was a toxic monogamous, like my level of of jealousy was just it. It was what was modeled for me. So I had a, I have a mom that's borderline and like that was really difficult And then I just, the romantic relationships that were modeled for me were very tumultuous and I just thought that that's how we behave and that everything was a threat to what was mine. Right. So again, there's this element of possessiveness and that 1 (25m 3s): Capitalist ownership. Yes. 0 (25m 5s): Which I would love to get into. Yeah. We into. So it's like you have someone and they wanna bring someone in and like share this like, yes, I wanna watch porn and their partners not allowing them to, or they don't feel that it'll be received well do you, would you have couples that come in and then do you help facilitate that ask? Yeah. 1 (25m 24s): Yeah. Sexual maturity and sexual safety is a really important concept. And I think people think about it only in terms of sexual abuse and sexual assault. But I think we have to look at it in terms of just our ability to bear our vulnerable, honest, authentic self to our primary partner. And are they mature enough and safe enough to have that brought to them? And how aware are we of how they manage their own anxiety and conflict. And if a couple presents as though they're not stable enough or loving enough or securely attached enough to deal with the anxiety that can come up when your partner says, I also enjoy body shapes and sizes that aren't yours. Which can be very threatening to someone who's toxically monogamous. 0 (26m 3s): I always thought you can only be attracted to one type of person. Isn't 1 (26m 6s): That wild? Now when you look back a lot, look different than 0 (26m 8s): Me in any way you, I must be disgusting to you and you no longer love me or attracted to 1 (26m 13s): Me. A lot of people relate to that and I remind them that, well I remind them that not only is that not true, but with eyes and whatnot, we're gonna be oriented towards a lot of different things Of course. And, and we wanna really honor the the gift that it, that is someone who we love saying, I wanna bring you into these deeper parts of who I am. What a beautiful sign. Beautiful. Right. Really beautiful. 0 (26m 33s): Like 1 (26m 33s): Play with me. Play with me. Yes. And then I trust that they'll be able to talk about other non-sexual high anxiety inducing things. Right? Because that's part of the lifespan. Talking to your partner about financial stress and issues. I work with couples that will drop a bomb. I want another baby. I don't want the baby. We talked about maybe having and being able to talk about these deeper parts of our sexuality is a way to practice and working up towards some of that. So again, I want couples to assess their, their own maturity as well. Am I mature enough for my partner to come to me just as much as I want them to assess as my partner? Yes my partner mature enough for me to go to, 0 (27m 10s): Don't say you want honesty if you're not gonna offer, offer a safe place for them to come to you. Hundred percent. 'cause the first time, it will be the last time if they come to you in radical honesty and you punish them for that. Yes. So don't punish behavior you want repeated. That's right. 1 (27m 22s): And say thank you. Yes, thank you for coming to me honestly and telling me this part of yourself. It makes me anxious. That was very hard to hear. But thank you for telling me, let me process and sit with what came up for me. But always just say thank you for bearing that part of yourself with me. 0 (27m 35s): Beautiful. I couldn't agree more. And then they'll be like, what now why are you lying? Why? Well, you punish them. So now that's right. You just taught them how to behave in this situation. I'm curious, do you have any, have you seen clients where you see a big discrepancy between jealousy with hetero and gay couples? Because Esther Perel does this bit where she talks about specifically pornography or any kind of open or poly relationship where in hetero couples, like the women tend to have a high higher jealousy rate, especially when it comes to seeing porn as cheating. Whereas the gay community, it's like what is considered cheating is very different. Correct. 1 (28m 11s): Yes. Yeah, I definitely see that me and Esther see this topic a little differently. We see that similarly, she does sometimes define some of that as cheating porn use and some of that. But sticking to the topic in your question. Yeah. You know, the gay community is a community where defined roles weren't set for them and they had to figure everything out on their own. And so they don't have rigid gendered or sexual orientation expectations inherently set. Right. So when you're part of an identity or community where there's not a lot of norms or expectations, you figure it out and you're more open and you're more authentic. Where heterosexuality definitely has a lot of expectations such as we're gonna date, we're gonna become monogamous, we're gonna get married, we're gonna have kids, we're gonna buy a house together. 1 (28m 57s): Gay community does not have that. It's only up until recently as you said, that there's even the ability or expectation that marriage could happen. So there's more freedom and there's more room. And I think being part of an identity that's marginalized and exploited, you inherently have more vulnerability and more community and there's just different norms from that. 0 (29m 18s): Yeah. Yeah. That that tracks. I just, I guess I always get confused and again, it's weird that I'm confused 'cause I would've been one of those women, but there's this evolutionary bio biological explanation for why women get jealous and it tends to be like a lack of resources, which means I'm not gonna survive as well. So women tend to get more jealous if a man has a potential of falling in love versus if it's just like a one and then the man tends to get jealous if there's a risk of getting pregnant. Yeah. But if it, if that's true or if that's mostly true, then it you he's not gonna fall in love with a woman that he's probably never gonna meet. So I find it interesting like the level of jealousy and how it is so staunchly seen as cheating and like the women have like this visceral response when he's never gonna see her. 0 (29m 60s): Yeah. So it, it tends to, I see it as going against that, that evolutionary biology argument 1 (30m 6s): And, and and thankfully and what evolutionary biology often forgets or leaves out is that we have the ability to learn and to change our thoughts and to grow and to challenge ourselves and to challenge what might've been evolutionary needs that no longer are valid. Right. I mean, tell me a little bit about how you came to undo your toxic monogamy 0 (30m 28s): Mono. Oh my goodness. So honestly it's so, it's so funny because people have this idea that porn automatically is gonna ruin relationships and it's just awful for you. And there's no way that you can have any kinda like spiritual or personal development. It, it is the thing that has changed me the most in such a beautiful way. It has challenged every sense of identity that I've ever had. Every sense of relationship, what love is, what ownership is, what freedom is, all of these really fundamental things. And I think because I did it in the public eye and it was so heavily scrutinized, I had no choice but to really look at it and have answers for myself and then constantly be evolving because the world demands that you evolve. 0 (31m 9s): You can't just be this one thing forever. But when I started to see couples that were in porn, like legacy porn stars and they were in these deep committed relationships and that was shocking to me. And I remember I was getting ready to do, my first boy girl hadn't done it yet. And I'm at this convention, I'm so nervous 'cause it's in a couple of days. And this woman runs up to me and she's so happy and she's like, I heard Mick is gonna do your first scene. This is her husband and I'm so happy for you. He's such a gentleman. Please let him know if you need anything. He will take care of you. And she was like, happy for me. 'cause she just knew what a great man her husband was. And I was like, this is so weird, 1 (31m 49s): Is so countercultural. 0 (31m 50s): Like why is she not trying to fight me right now? That's right. And then I do the scene and I'm shaking like a leaf. I'm so nervous. I had not been with many men in my personal life, so this was like a huge jump for me. And he pulled me aside and he's like, if at any point you're uncomfortable, let me know. Squeeze my leg. I'm healing though. I'll talk to the director. I have so many levels I'll be your conduit. Wow. And I was like, I've never had a man care about me this much bef like right before or during sex. Yeah. In my civilian life. Yeah. And now, now I'm in this thing that everyone says is evil and bad and like this is the most cared for I've ever been. So it just really took all of my beliefs and flipped 'em upside down. And 1 (32m 26s): What's hard for me to hear is that most likely outside of that industry, you can't expect to find a lot of men that think and talk like that to a woman engaging in sex with them. No. Right. Right. And that's what I think is really interesting is that the sex workers I know and have dated and work with clinically, there's so much growth that can come from that. And the bars often hire because of the communication and 0 (32m 48s): The boundary setting the higher too. Yeah. Yeah. So they have to be, 1 (32m 50s): It's really beautiful. So for you that was that transformative piece? 0 (32m 52s): Yeah, it was massive. And I, I just saw, I saw all kinds of relationships and like it can be a different way and the way that I've been approaching it hasn't been serving me. It's not what I want. It's kind of just what I've been modeled to do. And wait, I do have a choice. And it wasn't easy. There was a ton of jealousy, there was a lot of growing pains. But then that forced a ton of communication. And then it's, it's how fragile do I want my relationship to be? Do I want it as simple as he double clicks a, a bikini pick on Instagram and our relationship is over? That's, for some people, that's a real thing. 1 (33m 23s): Thank you for saying that word. How fragile do I want my relationship to be? Do I wanna create something that's robust and we can talk through what comes up? Or do I want to be threatened by someone's finger double tapping in image of someone who my partner will never actually see or engage or talk to in the world. Right, right. Yeah. And relationships will end over that because some people's definition of cheating is that. Absolutely. Just that. Yeah. 0 (33m 45s): Yeah. And then I, I guess one of the things too that I love so much is the idea of compersion. So it's this idea of truly, and to me that's love. Like it's, it's, I want you happy, even if it's not with me. Like 'cause I love you so much, it has nothing to do 1 (33m 57s): With me. And sometimes to my actual detriment even. Yes, 0 (33m 59s): Absolutely. And I agree with you 1 (33m 60s): Absolutely. With what an involved mature definition of love that I care about you as you just said, not to take away from you. No, please. That I place you before me sometimes. 0 (34m 9s): Yeah. And I, I think so much it, it's taking like what you see with relationships is just this thing that they call love, but really it's only love under a very strict amount of con conditions. Yes. Like unconditional love isn't almost non-existent. 1 (34m 22s): There's this old school psychoanalytic concept called Xi and it's the opposite of love, but it's what most people see to be love. And cxi in, in shorthand says it's about how you relate to something and you love it to the limits of your comfort. And once it challenges you or or you're forced to grow, you cut it off. And a lot, and I kind of use the example and this isn't a hundred percent accurate, but people will do that with their pets. Right. And I say this lovingly, people say I love my pet, but we still want them to knock on certain furniture and we don't want them to grow and develop. We want them to do and to stay within our comfort zone. That isn't the true definition of love. 1 (35m 2s): It's what you just said. And a lot of people confuse c affecting with love. Love is us being forced to go up against ourselves and to grow. 0 (35m 10s): Yeah. And then that segues into, how do you say it's like that the capitalistic model of love. 1 (35m 17s): Yeah. So I was talking yesterday at the Shaw conference about different negative discourses around sexuality and one of them being a capitalist model, which is once you're my partner or we have a label boyfriend, girlfriend, husband or wife that I now own you, I own your body, I own your sexuality and how traumatizing and traumatic that is and how we very much have to challenge that because it's very normal for people to see it that way. We even use the languaging, that's my wife, it's not your wife that my is that word of ownership. And some people take that too far thinking that I get to weigh in on what your eyeballs do and I can decide what kind of porn you're looking at. And I kind of said yesterday, if I'm alone at home, I get to decide what I eat. 1 (35m 59s): I get to decide what music I'm listening to. I get to decide when I'm home alone, what movies I'm watching. I get to decide when I'm home alone. Well at any time actually what I do with my body monogamy is about my relationship to other people. But some people see relationality as I own you and your body even when it doesn't involve someone else. And I can be upset if you're masturbating. I can be upset at what you're looking at. And that's problematic. 0 (36m 22s): I think it's abusive. I think for the women that in I this, correct me if I'm wrong 'cause you have had so many patients, but just what I've seen is the, the scale tips in favor of women as far as controlling the body and what the guy is watching, listening to and whether or not he's quote allowed to masturbate and that's abusive. Yes. I had, if you were to do that to a woman, like just flip the the sexes right there and then you would say that's not okay. He's telling you what you can watch. It's, that is abusive. So why are we letting women do it? And I think there's this almost like a resistance for a man to like stand up for himself and say, no, this is my body. Yes. And I it this isn't a threat. Like look for threats to our relationship. Have I shown you any signs that I'm going to leave you be unfaithful, break whatever agreements we have. 0 (37m 4s): No. So you have to challenge your own inner dialogue and like this is a saboteur in this moment. Yes. Right. It's tricking you 1 (37m 10s): Because if you trust me, trust me. Absolutely. And if you don't, let's talk about the fact that you don't. Yes. Because if you do, then I should be able to go wherever I go with whomever I go there with. It shouldn't matter what I'm up to when I'm out with my friends. 'cause if you trust me, you know, I'm looking out for you and our relationship even when you're not there. And not to like segueway the conversation, but there's actually another application of this, which is when we talk about a lot of sexual dysfunctions, I also want men to say, I have a right to the way my penis functions. I'm not gonna let someone tell me that I have erectile issues. Erections come and go. I have a right to my body as it is. This is what I'm offering you. And same thing with men commenting on women's bodies and weight gain or weight loss or whatever it is. That's also what abusive women have a right to the body. They have men have a right to the body. They have. 1 (37m 50s): And we also have to not apply it in that way. 0 (37m 52s): Yeah. And there are so many stories that I've been told where like a man feels safe enough to tell me where he would have an experience in a maybe even a formative sexual experience with a woman and then she would emasculate him because he was too quick or he couldn't get hard. And how that creates a trauma that really lasts with him then that makes it really hard, hard for him to get vulnerable with future partners. And, but again, I think it's women get get away with a lot more because it's not like an immediate violent attack. It's a lot more subtle. And again, like I consider that abusive. I don't think that's okay at all. So you shouldn't again, and if you, even if it's not a long-term committed relationship, you should be committed in that moment. Let's say you just met two hours ago that like you say it like they're a real person. They have real feelings and empathize with that and be like, oh that's fine. 0 (38m 35s): That happens. Yeah. That's natural. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with you. 1 (38m 38s): And I think that should be a general expectation that you have on anyone who enters your world in any way as a client, as a friend, as a lover, as a partner, as a hookup. That we're gonna recognize each other's humanity. And we're gonna realize that any interpersonal relation, any personal interaction on any level is not neutral. And we leave people feeling better off in their bodies in the world with other people or worse off. And if you're commenting negatively on someone's body and how it functions or their penis size or anything, you're harming them. And that's gonna impact how they move forward with someone else. Because we still very much normalize making small dick jokes. Yeah. And people saying, when I'm dating no one who, you know, I only want someone who's hung and all that, that's a form of sexual trauma and body trauma. And I'm working with a lot of individuals that are working on feeling okay in the world in their body with a smaller penis or a larger size body or whatever it might be. 0 (39m 23s): Were you ever in a position in your life where you did see people as like ownership? Like you had kind of a possessive innate relationship? Good 1 (39m 31s): Question. I want to, I, I honestly, I think I can honestly say no. Wow. And so maybe the deeper question is like, how did that come to be then? 'cause our culture doesn't set you up to think that way. And I guess this is further in my life, so it doesn't really answer the question. But there was a time in my life where I was dating people that were in the sex work industry and a lot of friends that were, and they came into my life I guess at a really beautiful time where it helped me understand. And back away from that, I just never really had an anxious attachment style. I never really had a lot of toxic monogamy ideals. Did my mom and dad in their relationship impact that? I don't know how it would've, they were pretty normal. There wasn't really much in that. 1 (40m 11s): I somehow early ages really found a lot of feminist literature. I was always a radical when I was young. I was this like punk rock kid getting tattooed at 16 and instead of going in maybe a negative direction, I found just really freethinking healthy people in those worlds. And they really instilled in me just really beautiful ethics and concepts. Mm. And so I was really blessed to have found these marginalized people that from the outset were scary, they're tattooed, they crazy hairstyles and piercings. But we were just like really healthy people that had great ethics and we honored all the diverse ways that people could exist. And it influenced me very positively. 0 (40m 46s): Yeah. That's beautiful. I'm so thankful. You're, you're definitely a rare bird. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna get into a hookup culture. Sure, sure. So it go, it goes back to the pendulum, overcorrecting and I, what are, what are your thoughts on kind like the Louise Perry perspective that hookup culture is destroying young women? 1 (41m 6s): You know, hookup culture's complicated and I have really complicated thoughts on it because I, I want to on one one level validate it. 'cause I'm a fan of sexual relational developmental milestones. And I want people to be around a lot of different kinds of people and learn about boundaries and consent and communication and what feels good and, and all of that. But I also think there's a lot of really toxic norms within that world. And so when someone's a participant in hookup culture, my first honest response is, and I feel that way when people are dating on the apps. I think they're valuable. I think they're great. But I'm also like, oh man, you got a lot ahead of you. Because people don't have a lot of sexual ethics. They don't have a lot of relational ethics. And as a general psychotherapist as well. 1 (41m 48s): 'cause my original trainings in clinical psychology and, and clinical mental health, I want people to again, take more seriously both how they impact everyone. 'cause I think that's a concept of mental health. We care about how we impact people, but I also want people to have a value system, which sounds a little outside of mental health. You 0 (42m 6s): Can't have values in being hookup culture. What are you talking 1 (42m 8s): About? And, and I feel that that to be true sometimes can, and I think it's really interesting where if you ask people a lot of questions like what are your financial goals? What are your career goals to have answers. But if you say to them, what are your ethics and values? What is your decision making metrics when you're up against a decision that you can't make? And a lot of people don't know what ethics or values drive them. And I think that's part of what we see in hookup culture is people don't have a metric. And I think we need to, and I think they should. I think it should be applied there and elsewhere. So I think it's a deeper issue of culturally we don't value that kind of talk or thinking and hookup culture. It shows up in there powerfully. 0 (42m 41s): Yeah. What I, what I've seen in porn and then what I also see with just the regular civilian population, specifically with younger women, there's this really pervasive internal dishonesty that they have with themselves and porn. I think it can be so damaging because the internet is forever and the acts are a lot more extreme than what you're 10. What you're gonna find, you know, at a bar and a with a regular civilian guy, right? Like there's some girls that do acts that are just not good for your body and they're, it's almost like who can be the most extreme or like the dirtiest slut because in some way that, that's commendable in that industry. So it, it gives you a level of prestige. Like I'm the dirtiest, I'm the most extreme, I'm the baddest, like the, I have no limits. 0 (43m 26s): And to me I think that's so dangerous. I think, 1 (43m 28s): And I imagine sometimes they, they cloak it under, I'm, I'm actually super sex positive. Right? So then it's healthy. 0 (43m 34s): Whatever I'm doing can't shame me. That's right. And then I've heard, I've had people say this and they're like, you can't shame this whore. And I'm like, and it's so, it's funny but in such a sad way because I would call out this behavior 'cause some of it would be unsafe. It's like if you're gonna go out there and sleep with all of these people untested and come back to the industry like, fuck you because you're putting other people's health at risk. You can't do that. 1 (43m 52s): And and and the partners of those partners, right. The partners of your scene partners. 0 (43m 56s): Right. And so many of them are married or in some kind of mostly monogamous relationships, which is pretty shocking. 1 (44m 1s): Right. When I dated a sex worker, I had to trust that all that was happening so that my partner came home and we were intimate. I had to trust that I was being protected. Yeah. 0 (44m 8s): Yes. Yeah. And it's just, it's a level of just, just recklessness that I just couldn't get behind. And it, to me it's a trauma response. And then more often than not years after people would get out, they would just have this revelation like, man, I really didn't wanna do those scenes. And how awful, because some of them again are really traumatizing. Like really, really traumatizing. So have you worked with helping people kind of take off these masks or these shells that they've convinced themselves that they are to help them establish healthy boundaries? Because that I it, I know porn is an outlying example, but a lot of people are participating in hookup culture and if they don't have a strong ethos or these are my boundaries before they participate, they're gonna get hurt. Yeah. 1 (44m 49s): Wow. So much in what you just said that was really powerful. Do I work with people in and out in those ways? Yeah. There's this concept in clinical psychology called differentiation. And it's someone's ability to, in the face of this other set boundaries and not have a reflected sense of worth. Not people please not try to be approved. And even, and, and, and even though some of those individuals on the surface seem like they're very differentiated 'cause they're saying, no one's gonna shame me. In fact, it's very much driven by an attempt to get approval and to get a reflected back sense of worth because I'm the baddest of the all. I'm the dirtiest. Right. And so it's really about getting deeper and starting to define it as such. 1 (45m 31s): And I think that's important work for all of us because again, as I said earlier, most people move through the world a conformist doing what everyone else is doing or authoritarian. I'm doing what I think I'm supposed to do. And I think mental health is about stepping outside of that understanding what our boundaries are and our limits are stand stepping into our anxiety and setting those boundaries when needed. Looking at impact in the short term and in the long term. And I think that that shifts and has an impact in diverse ways, especially for people in the industry because as you said, that lives forever. There's no taking some of that stuff back. And even if you could, what's the internal ongoing impact that you have on looking back at having done some of those things? 0 (46m 7s): Yeah. And that's why, I mean, I'm a big, big proponent of raising the age of entry for film. I think it should be 25. And I know that sounds, what is it now? 18 1 (46m 17s): Eighteen's a very young, I mean we, it's, it's such a cliche, but it's true. Your brain and your, you know, neo frontal cortex and all of that, your judgment, all that isn't fully online until around 24 or 25. 0 (46m 29s): And men, they're saying now 30, 1 (46m 31s): I believe that. And so at 18, to be tasked with making decisions that you can't take back, I think is an unfair pressure to maybe put on someone. I mean, you can't even drink alcohol at 0 (46m 43s): 18 or get cigarettes. No. Yeah. Right. Cigarettes are 21. 1 (46m 47s): Do you get pushback when people hear you say that about the 0 (46m 49s): Grazing Me? Yeah, because they're, they use their story and they're fine. And I would challenge a lot of them. Like, are you really? And 'cause there's a lot of like you, user bias, like you're like looking for ways that your decision was. Right. Okay. I, I've got in a little bit later, I think I was 21. Okay. Which was still young. And it's at that age you are so easily influenced by fame and money and power and prestige and like all of these things that I don't think that you can make an honest decision with a lot of things because all these influencers are so heavy. And then you're also put in situations where you might be the only female and there's 20 other people on set. And I as like a very disagreeable, strong women have been put in situations that were really hard for me, but I like held my ground, but that I saw all these other women not be able to do it. 0 (47m 37s): And they'd be like, well if you don't do this, this act exactly this way, or if you don't make this face or if you don't sleep with all of these guys, it was only supposed to be one. But now there's three crew doesn't get paid and then they put that pressure and like that's a lot for an 18-year-old. Sure. A lot. Yeah. Especially when it's all men, you know? 1 (47m 55s): Yeah. Because someone at 18 is not, as I was saying earlier, differentiated able to go up against and not people please. And not perform for this imaginary audience and all that. Yeah. I think there's a really interesting concept. You have my support. Yeah. 0 (48m 6s): Yeah. I don't know how that changes, but Yeah. And 1 (48m 8s): Even, even for those that maybe did enter at a younger age and didn't have a negative impact, that doesn't mean that that's gonna be true for 0 (48m 13s): Everyone. Exactly. Right. And you can't just use your Right. Your story as like this is the model that's right. For, for everybody. And yeah, I think it just, it needs to be more of like an honest conversation. But it's hard because one of the things you were saying in your talk was that for up until recently, you wouldn't really criticize porn. I'm glad that you do know because my perspective is that if you are in a highly criticized industry, that it's almost your duty to be radically honest and like hold bad actors accountable because the, what the public sees is if you don't acknowledge it from the inside, that you're not a reliable source anymore. True. And that you're trying to also participate in the coverup of all of these problems. 1 (48m 52s): Well said. And that probably was how I was perceived at times. 'cause for those that are, you know, listening, I was saying that for many, many years I was unwilling to talk about the negatives of porn because I felt like that's all that was talked about. And that's what everyone was already doing. There's so much of that out there. And I really wanted to be one of those people that was focusing on some of the positives and the clinical uses of it. And then I realized, I guess you said it so beautifully that that actually discredits me because everything has a dark side, everything has a shadow side. It does. And we have to be able to look at all of it. We have to critically analyze everything, especially those on the inside. And that's why this weekend and as I move forward and hopefully in my next book I'll, I'll start to talk about that. And I think that's important. Yeah. 0 (49m 32s): What's your next book on? 1 (49m 33s): So my first book, sex Outside the Lines was I, I thought that might be my one and only book. You never know what's to come in your career. Right. And so I felt so blessed to get this opportunity. I'd done a TV show, I got a book deal and I wanted to be hyper, hyper, hyper academic. And I wanted to put every thought I ever had in this book. Right. And you can't do that. And so it was like a little all over the place. Super smart, really proud of it. My next book, rebel Love, they wanted it to be a little more user friendly, a little more simplistic and really hitting all the cultural stuff that we're talking about. I want my next book to be hyper, hyper clinical. I want it to be everything I talked about this weekend, everything we're talking about right now. Just very clinically driven, very conceptual. 1 (50m 13s): Basically what we're talking about now and what we're, what I talked about this weekend, that's what the book is gonna be. 0 (50m 18s): And are you still seeing patients? I 1 (50m 20s): Am, yeah. It's my primary job right now. I historically was doing a lot of media, had a couple TV shows, did a lot of work, work with Amber Rose. Me and her took over Dr. Drew's podcast. We were doing as a podcast. I was on her VH one show. I was guest hosting on the doctor's daytime show. I ha had my own radio show. I was doing all that writing and right now took a little break. I got tired, I got burned out, I was traveling too much. And right now it's mainly my clinical practice and working with the Sexual Health Alliance as their director of education and putting together programming in the conference and just really doing more clinical academic work, which is a really important part of what I enjoy. I love that smart stuff. But I miss media. I hope to get back into it soon. 1 (51m 0s): Yeah. 0 (51m 0s): Amazing. Yeah. We'll keep an eye on all of that. Do you wanna tell the listeners watchers how they can support you, where they can follow you, all that 1 (51m 7s): Good stuff? Yeah, so mostly on more Instagram at Dr. Donahue. I don't really use Twitter much, but that's at Chris Donahue. My website, dr chris donahue.com is where you can reach if me if you wanna do clinical work. And my book's, sex Outside The Lines and Rubble Love are Found everywhere. 0 (51m 20s): Amazing. Thank you so much. This was a pleasure. 1 (51m 22s): So great to sit with you. Thank you. 0 (51m 23s): Bye everybody.