#145 Why S*x Workers Are Better at Psychology Than Therapists | Episode 'I Had More Boundaries as a S*x Worker' - Raw Conversation About the Industry

0 (0s): Asec, which is the American Association of Sexual Educators, counselors, and therapists, would not certify sex workers. 1 (7s): Whoa. I had no 0 (8s): Idea. Yeah. Which is insane. 2 (10s): If we are sexually expressive, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong in the way we see the world. 1 (18s): You can only be the Madonna or the who didn't, you know that you have to pick one. 0 (21s): YiIVEM only been in monogamous relationships. Like that's for me, that's my thing. I've never cheated on anyone. And yet I was also an escort. 1 (31s): Everyone I know that is in porn is married, has kids. They're actually in monogamous relationships now. It's 2 (36s): Woven deeply into our society. Opinions might be packaged differently. You may hear different bullet points in the arguments of why it's bad 1 (47s): Telling a woman that she has to have sex with whoever shows up on set. That's not okay 0 (51s): If you're in sex work, if you're in that industry, you end up realizing the value of monogamy and commitment. 1 (59s): So we are at the Sexual Health Alliance conference. Can you, this, is this your first one? First one, first one, first 0 (1m 6s): One, 1 (1m 6s): First one. Mine too. Yeah. Any expectations? And I guess like why is a conference like this important? 0 (1m 13s): Well, it's a loaded question. Where are we? Good. I think that sex is the key to everything in life. It's symbolic of how we do everything in life, how we talk about sex, how we have sex, how we engage with it, what it means, you know, politically, and people are so scared of it. Right. I was for a very long time. I started, I got into it initially because I was a sex worker among many other things and lived a completely double life. And I could never reconcile with, with that. I was always fascinated with sexuality and sociology and psychology and philosophy. 0 (1m 55s): And I was like, but you know, this is bad. I'm supposed to be bad. I, I felt shame about not feeling shame. So after I was outed many, many moons ago, I was able to like bridge the gap and be like, oh, wow. The thing I feared the most happening happened to me. And then I had this revelation of like, holy shit, what's on the other side of, of this? And, and sex and sexuality and the people that you meet in this space are just profound. It's like a, you know, sex is a metaphor for life. It's symbolic of how we do everything. So once I started to work through my shame and my preconceived notions and conceptions about, about sex and my sexuality and what we are not supposed to do and what we're supposed to do, that just gave me so many epiphanies to everything in life. 0 (2m 44s): And then it's like the root of psychology in so many ways. I think you have a good, you have a good concept of like, people being scared of sex and what it means 2 (2m 53s): It's age old. But this is my first sexual health Alliance conference as well. I know, know, it's only the second one, right? This is the second annual. I've attended other sex conferences where you are having a clinical or scholarly tone to the event itself. Right. You're having a lot of these talks about research and stats and new findings and all of that is immensely intimidating to someone who comes from the world of sex work, where you already feel that maybe opinions of you being in the room. Though most of us will say, we are accepting. You still feel that gap that I don't come from a big institutional education. I'm trying for it now. And I do believe that experience, especially within an industry like sex work, is so valuable in sex research and in human sexuality as a place to investigate ourselves. 2 (3m 47s): I think that our experience is crucial, and we should have voices in these spaces. But coming into this event, yeah, of course there's a little intimidation. You know, you've got these very learned folks that have put in years and, and endless effort into reading the papers and staying up to date on the medical journals. And that's not exactly how I've spent my time. I'm getting used to doing more of a it now. Yeah. And entering these spaces, you know, I, I'm, I'm hoping to find those connecting moments. You know, someone said in one of the talks we were just at, we're preaching to the converted. Yeah. And so one of the elements of getting these groups together that I find a little bit frustrating at times is we can come up with the best ideas about how to solve stigma, how to solve the world's inability to talk about sex, how to approach society in a multitude of ways to make it more comfortable. 2 (4m 41s): But still we're preaching to the converted. We are in our own little think tank. How do we take it out into the world and carry it into the interactions with society outside of sex positivity? 0 (4m 50s): Yeah. And, and on that note, sexual health Alliance started in response to the fact that asec, which is the American Association of Sexual Educators, counselors and therapists, would not certify sex workers. So even if you had your master's degree, even if you had your doctorate, whatever, if they found out that you were a sex worker or a sex worker in any capacity, that's all negated. 1 (5m 13s): Whoa. I had no idea. 0 (5m 14s): Yeah. Which is insane because the lived experience, again, having been in sex work, that's like a master's in psychology tenfold. I'm sure you can speak to a lot of that as well. What you learn about the human psyche is just profound. Like why people do what they do, what drives them. They tell you things that they would never tell their spouse, their best friend, their partner, their own therapist. Right. So if you come from that to them with a place of relatability, which which we do, which I think we all have, then what people confide in you is like, is profound. And what you're able to uncover about, about drivers is insane. 1 (5m 49s): Yeah. That's really fascinating because a lot of the main critiques when it comes to anyone that's a quote expert or a professor, it's almost that you're hiding away from the actual imp like the implementation of whatever it is that you're philosophizing or teaching. Yeah, totally. Right. Because you can say in a vacuum that all of this stuff makes sense, but then you take it out into the real world where you have all of these unpredictable variables and you're like, wait, this is actually behaving very differently than I thought. So we've always kind of said that the master, we should actually pay attention to them more than the philosopher or the teacher because it's just, they're two totally different things, and it's very easy to theorize. And then when, again, practical application should be superior to just some kind of antidote that you came up within an office. 0 (6m 28s): Yeah. And, and the space is so divisive, like sexuality in general, because you get this, the, the extremes, right? And you have the woowoo like kind of predatory space of like the free hug, you 2 (6m 40s): Know? Oh, are we talking yoni masters? 0 (6m 42s): Yeah. Yeah. The sunning of the yoni. Right? Right. I I'm sure there's something for everyone, or you get this like this over intellectualized, you know, like ASEC certified, not that we know a lot of amazing AEC practitioners obviously, but have no lived experience and like God forbid, you, you, you know, confront them in a sexual scenario that they're terrified of that. So it's like, what about in the middle? And what I think is incredible about this conference in particular, and what Sexual Health Alliance does is like we meet in the middle, like the, it's because people are just, people are polarized by this stuff, you know? And and similar to pol it's very political as 1 (7m 18s): Well. Yeah, that's interesting too. I was talking to someone and it was back when we thought we were gonna have the panel on politics and sex. And the person I was talking to said, well, where is, where is that convergence? Like where does politics meet sex? I was like, it's always been political, especially if you're a woman. It's always been political. Yeah. And that kind of shocked their brain a little bit. And it's the way that we're allowed to behave. What is socially acceptable, what makes you deplorable and untouchable, and then these are the only healthy ways to express it. And if you're expressing it in an atypical way, then you must have trauma, or you must be on drugs or Right. You have low self worth. I get this in my comments, all this all the time to say that this is an authentic expression of myself. And I look at it as a creative outlet. 1 (7m 59s): Yeah. And they're like, that's not art. So the question then is, is what constitutes art? Like how do you look at art? Yeah. Or, or 0 (8m 7s): Authenticity. 2 (8m 8s): Sex work. 0 (8m 8s): Sex work isn't work. Okay. Well, is modeling work? Is acting work? Like, is it like, you know, 1 (8m 12s): Is podcasting work? 0 (8m 13s): Is podcasting work is talking, you know what, whatever that medium is. But that's the thing that is most perplexing, is like, they want your trauma story. They want your trauma story. No, but what happened 2 (8m 24s): To validate there? What 0 (8m 25s): Brought you 2 (8m 25s): Here? That's 0 (8m 26s): Right. Their shame to validate their shame, their That's right. Discomfort 2 (8m 28s): Around. That's right. Well, so that their narrative is boosted. Yeah. So that their narrative has grounds. And this is a narrative that we know is dangerous. It's a misconception. It's founded in a lot of fiction and a lot of media informed depictions of the industry, and really of any sexually liberated person, let's be real, you know, you can extend it further than just sex workers. And, and so that's, that's the issue. That's my, my take on the issue here is that if we are sexually expressive, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong in the way we see the world. It doesn't mean that there's some trauma that we're trying to cope with. It means that, hey, we are comfortable with this and we wanna utilize it for a means of self-expression. 2 (9m 13s): We're 0 (9m 13s): Multidimensional people. Right. It's like people, 1 (9m 16s): You could only be the Madonna or the whore. Exactly. Didn't you know that you have to pick one or 0 (9m 20s): The other. Exactly. Like I, you know, I've said this before, but I've only been in monogamous relationships. Like, that's, for me, that's my thing. I've never cheated on anyone. And yet I was also an escort, you know, and I never bridge, I never bridge those two worlds. And I, I know where my values lie. And I, I I, my boundaries are very stern. That's the other misconception about sex work. It's like, oh, well they must have no boundaries. We have the most insane boundaries. 1 (9m 46s): So what would you say? One critique that I get from one of my co-hosts of another show when he talks about this, it's one, once you put a dollar sign on it, then you've kind of devalued yourself. And you're now saying like, I'm only worth x versus a woman or a man that doesn't put a dollar sign on it. And then it's only within a container of like a monogamous relationship. I don't agree with that, obviously. But his take is, you're almost devaluing it by putting a dollar sign on that exchange 2 (10m 13s): Of sex or of art. 1 (10m 15s): Yes. Well, so, well, so I guess it goes back to the question too, of what is art? Because you do, right? Yeah. There are pieces of art that you would say are, what would you say? What's the word? 2 (10m 23s): Priceless. Priceless, 1 (10m 25s): Exactly. And then you can go buy something for a hundred bucks, right? Sure. So there's a delineation. 0 (10m 29s): Yeah. Hey, I was a musician. I wrote some shitty songs and I wrote some phenomenal songs. None of them you'll ever have heard of. But it's like, it's, it's all so nuanced, right? So sex with a partner, with a monogamous part, sex with love is very different. Making love is very different. Like sex is a whole language in and of itself. It does different things for us at different times, right? Like, I am someone that it alleviates, you know, orgasm alleviates anxiety for me when I'm stressed. That helps me. Most women are not like that. If they're feeling stressed out, then they can't even think sexually at all. I 2 (11m 3s): To just cut in there. And I do apologize, Coral. Oh, you're, it's my good Canadian in me, right? I, I So sorry. Think to the, sorry. To the, to the core of it, we know instinctually the power of sex. We know how mighty it is within us as an urge, as a part of our identity. Even if you are an asexual person and you're not interested in sexual interaction of a physical kind, you're still, that's your sexuality. Still defining it. So knowing, knowing how profound a relationship we can have by exploring our sexuality and wanting to know it, sex work allows people to venture into that without the potential of say rejection, without the potential of being criticized too heavily by a sex partner. 2 (11m 56s): So that's a big value in sex work. And the art of sex itself. And the value in experiencing it is like that's, maybe I'm just getting really excited here and cloudy by it. But the idea that if we can avoid some of those barriers that happen in human to human outside of sex work attempts at connection, then why not seize it? Yeah. If it means that you get to explore your sexuality, why not do that with a sex worker? Yeah. 0 (12m 30s): Yeah. Are, so you're talking from a client standpoint. Yeah. 'cause it's obviously different from a sex worker lens, because performative sex can be very insidious that it, it led me to a, certainly like an intimacy impasse where I, you know, you, you, you're getting paid for being validated and then intersecting with a real life relationship. You're like, wait, what? What the hell? The goalposts just moved. Like, where do I stand here? And I call that like provider privilege, right? You're like, what? Like you have this kind of entitlement and you have to switch gears and it's very humbling. So it's liberating in so many ways. And again, insidious in more subtle ways, not the ones we hear about. 'cause I, we hear about trafficking, which is not the same as consensual sex work. 0 (13m 13s): Those 2 (13m 14s): Not, I'm saying put a price tag on it. That's why I'm saying charge for that. And there should be a number on it. Yeah. It is art and it is beautiful and it is human and it is worth something. Yeah. So 1 (13m 23s): Would you, so to the people that think that having this more normalized or less stigmatized or more readily available or accessible, that that's actually hindering them having a more deep connection with someone that they don't have to, right. Like, 'cause now I don't have to work for it and now this is the safer way for me to experience it without criticism. So I'm gonna just do this all of the time instead of being vulnerable and risking, right. Being denied or whatever that is 2 (13m 52s): With the, there's a balance 1 (13m 53s): Civilian, 2 (13m 53s): There's a balance that's required and there's an awareness. I think that's the responsibility. Some people just lose themselves in it, right? A client can lose themselves in. That's the 0 (14m 1s): Pathological aspect, of course. But I would say that's a small percentage of what I ever came across. A lot of it, they were looking for answers or a lot of them were in, you know, long-term partnerships or marriages and sexless partnerships and marriages. They tried to broach the subject with their partner and we're currently shut down on an ongoing basis. So what's gonna happen if that happens? And so, you know, so much of sex work was actually very little to do, again, with the act itself and more about the intimacy of like being seen, heard, understood. And if something's already baseline transactional, if you're just showing up and it's just baseline transactional and sexual exchange, then anything on top of that that's offered in the space is going to be pretty radical. 0 (14m 42s): Intimacy and honesty. 1 (14m 45s): So what does the legalization, or I guess step one in a lot of states would be decriminalization of that look like? Yeah, 2 (14m 51s): That's what everyone's pushing for is decrim at this point, right? 1 (14m 54s): 'cause I mean, you could even do legal work and it's so interesting because everyone is so quick to just like blame the right and say it's like only the right that has a problem with anything like this. It's not true. It's not true. 'cause most of the laws were actually passed under Barack Obama and it was goes operation choke hold. So it's like if you were in CBD, if you're in marijuana, and if you're in anything that is like sex works, so dancing OnlyFans porn, if they find out certain banks, find out you don't have the right to bank. Oh yeah. Which is insane because these are all legal industries. Yeah. So it is not as simple as like, oh, it's just the Christians and the Right. No, no, no, no, no. Makes, exactly. It's lot more complicated 0 (15m 28s): Than 2 (15m 28s): That. It's woven deeply into our society regardless of what side you're on. Absolutely. That's the reality here is like, it might be packaged opinions might be packaged differently. You may hear different bullet points in the arguments of why it's bad, but there is no safe place. It's not like, Hey, if you just lean left and hang out here for a while, you'll be protected. Hey, if you go to the right, there's a safe space there. No, there isn't. And that's the issue. Right. That's why. And neither we fighting for 0 (15m 60s): Neither presidential candidate has spoken to, to sex work. Like as it stands now. No. 1 (16m 5s): So is it because it's too hard to regulate? So if you do, let's say we wanna make it legal, is that opening the doors for more like marginalized people that have like, have to do that? Like they, in their mind, they think that's their only available opportunity for resources. Does that make them more vulnerable to pimps and like, to like more of like that abusive ver side of your 0 (16m 26s): Belly? By legalizing it? 1 (16m 27s): No, by legalizing. Yeah. Because now it's not regulated, right? So it's almost like, well if I'm not gonna get, if I'm not gonna go to jail for pimping out and abusing these women, then I'm gonna do it out in the open. Yeah, yeah, 0 (16m 37s): Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I was, yes, I was in Amsterdam with sexual health Alliance, which is how I first was introduced to them this past summer. And I came into it being like, oh yeah, I know sex work, like North American sex work and going there where it's legal and visiting the brothels and the red light district, you know, it's very, very different. They said, you know, they're like, no, we have all these measures in place to ensure that there's no trafficking happening. But most of the sex workers are in relationships like, you know, marriages or have boyfriends, and they're the main breadwinners. So I'm like, how are we defining this then? And a lot of them are seeing 10 to 20 clients a day. They're making an average of, I think they make 50 euros per 15 minutes. 0 (17m 19s): The average appointment is six to eight minutes. So this is vastly different than anything that high end escorts or sex workers or content creators experience in North America. It's completely different. Yeah. It's like, do you own the ranch or you want the cow on the ranch? You know? So to, to take that treatment into consideration in the hierarchy is very, very important. So yeah, legalization, you're right. It would all be in plain sight. It's like the hiding in plain sight phenomenon. Right. Which is why decrim is so important. And you could probably speak more to that. 2 (17m 48s): Well, even, you know, even in Canada, which is where I'm from, we you're from, you're from as well. They have, you know, the model that basically holds the buyer responsible. The buyer is the guilty. Yeah. The buyer's the guilty party. Right. And that doesn't solve anything. There's also a no advertising. You can't advertise for services. Mind you, the worker is not guilty, is not held responsible in a transaction. Well then you have to think about the buyer going into that situation and where those levels of anxiety are elevated to and what kind of danger that could show up as still pushes. Its still pushes it underground completely. Still completely. Yeah. And so that's not a solution. 2 (18m 29s): Yeah. The solution is to have decrim. I mean, it's gonna look like the, if the country keeps going the way it is, it'll probably be a state by state thing. Right. As we know. I mean, it would be way too historic though. I dream of it to be a fucking federal law. It's not. It's just, that's, that's a big, big dream. It'll be a state by state and hope decrem is what we're hoping for. Right. That's, that's the goal here. Yeah. 1 (18m 57s): No, that makes, yeah, that does make sense. I, I was watching the gajillion Michaels interview and she was talking about California. Yeah. Because they kind of, in my opinion, like they kind of go too far in a lot of things. And it's, it goes to the conver, it's like we're doing ourselves like such a disservice because, I dunno how to say it, it's like certain levels of shame or ridicule can be beneficial. Right. They can be protective. And there's this woman I follow a lot of her somatic work. She calls it like healthy shame versus toxic shame. And there are places for that. Like, you don't, I don't want to walk over needles while I'm, while I'm taking my kid to school. 1 (19m 37s): I don't wanna have to explain why there's a half naked woman and a man standing next to her. So it seems like the way that California has gone is like, all of it is okay, nothing is to be shamed. Oh my God. Nothing is to be ridiculed. And it's like, no, things just need to be regulated, I think. Or if it's like at a very baseline decriminalized and like hell consenting adults can do what they want. But I just, my concern again is just protecting the women or like the performers in that, in that space. And how do you kind of create like autonomy and agency there? Because it's a similar issue with, with porn, right? Like, I criticized porn, the speaker earlier today was like, I don't do that 'cause it does harm. I actually, like that really made me fucking pissed. 1 (20m 18s): Because what happens when you don't criticize the industry that you're in is now you're not trustworthy 'cause you're not being honest. Mm. So if it's already a taboo thing and we're saying nothing to see here, right? Well now you're not an honest voice. And now I'm gonna actually say that, that industry will see, they're not honest. Yeah. They're hiding something. You're auditing it. Yeah. So you have to say, no, I don't fucking agree with that. I'm in this industry and I support a woman and her, her option to be able to like, use her body as art and, and put a price tag on that and whatever that might be. But I'm gonna also say that telling a woman that she has to have sex with whoever shows up on set, that's not okay. That bullying a woman to pass her boundaries. Because guess what? If you don't do this today, none of the crew gets paid. That's not fucking Okay. 0 (20m 58s): Can I just say that, that I, I've been following a lot of your stuff on porn and you made me aware of so much. Like I didn't even know about Trafficking Hub. And I was like, wow. I thought it was just, you know, this like Texas conservative overview. We don't want our kids watching it. And I'm like, I didn't realize how deep rooted it was, but I was watching, I was on some ethical porn site the other day, ethical porn site. I won't name what it is. And they have these, like, these, these blind dates, right. You guys probably know the, what I'm talking about. They're in different rooms. Their voices are muffled and after about 10 minutes of talking, they're thrown into a scene together. And you can actually see one or both partners not being comfortable. 0 (21m 38s): And it's like, they're just, oh, you're both, you're both like, and you can sense them not being into it. One of 'em not being into it. I actually saw like one of the male performers really not being into it. Like, you could just tell. And so therein lies the question of of like consent and autonomy too. It, and that goes with all forms of sex work. Like, well you, no, you're a sex worker, so everything goes, 1 (21m 57s): You can't be raped because you're on a set. Yes. Yeah, 0 (21m 59s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're seeing that with the whole p diddy thing right now. Right. Well, they were sex workers. Like, okay, so 2 (22m 5s): Yeah. But that's an issue of coercion and consent, which cannot be attained if you're being prodded and plotted with drugs. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's, that's the missing, missing element here is like, they may have been sex workers. 0 (22m 17s): Well no, it still means no as a sex worker, 2 (22m 19s): But you can't consent if you're flying high on drugs that were provided and pressured upon you. Yeah. So that's what the real subject is. But because he said sex workers, the media's attaching to that saying, oh good. Yeah. This is what we can blame it on. This is what we can get into. And I'm sure that's a big part of his defense team too, right? Yeah. Is just to, to bash the sex workers and not own up to the fact that he's actually supplying drugs to make 0 (22m 44s): Consent. And you can traffic sex workers. Yes. By the way. 2 (22m 47s): Yes. 0 (22m 47s): Right. Yeah. But we need to be able to define and discern those terms so much more concretely. 'cause they get blurred and they all under this blanket statement. And it's just, that's, that's where we go wrong in the media 1 (22m 58s): Big time. No, trafficking is a massive umbrella as far as what that means. Yeah. So it can be a consenting adult that is crossing state lines to get paid for sex. And it could also mean you're chaining someone to a floor. Right? Yes. They're the same thing. Yeah. How is that helping actual victims? Because the first one's not Yeah. You just don't like it. Right. But you, it, I don't know why. I have no idea why they're under the same category 2 (23m 22s): Per, perhaps it's time to revise definitions. Right? Yeah. Especially in a legal sense. We see that with the Paris case with the wife that was being drugged by, oh my god, by her, her husband for so many years. They actually redefined rape in a, in a legal sense in a legal term. Did they, did. Because, you know, this wasn't included. I don't remember the the specifics here, but what was happening to her technically didn't meet the mark for rape. Yeah. You know, this is spousal. 0 (23m 47s): Yeah. 2 (23m 48s): Yes. So I think it's about redefining terminology and perhaps being a little more explicit. Yeah. With trafficking especially, I mean, are you kidding? Yeah. We've, we've, we fell into the fota cesta world that we're into because we were told it was going to end trafficking and it was going to end the distribution and circulation of child pornography. But in fact, you know, swallowing that pill of believing that's what that was meant to do, meant a huge rise in censorship meant almost impossible to have any information with the word sex in it going out online. Yeah. And that's why we're in a sexual, a social sexual revolution. Our parents and grandparents had the, the pill, they had the sex revolution of free love. 2 (24m 31s): The one that we are in is about talking about sex. And that's why this podcast exists. Yeah. 'cause it's part of that. 0 (24m 36s): Well, and I also think though, like in terms of stigma and the revolution. Yeah. OnlyFans has done a lot there. It's shown you that like your sister, you know, your teacher by 2 (24m 45s): Nearly shutting 0 (24m 46s): Down by No. Just that, that anyone can get involved with. And you can be a good person and a normal person and have a conventional life and still do this. And that's a part of you. Right? Yeah. 2 (24m 55s): There's still an opinion about OnlyFans 1 (24m 57s): A strong one. 2 (24m 58s): Very strong one. Of course. 0 (24m 60s): Course. It has helped start that conversation to, 2 (25m 2s): To to show just how large Yeah. The, the, the community 0 (25m 6s): Is. Well, and then there's the whole, the whole hierarchy thing of like, oh, but she only did it with her boyfriend, or, or she only did girly girl or she, you know. Okay. So like, so is she a better person then? Right. And she's a worse, or he's better and he's worse. Like how, where do we draw the line there? But I do believe that the hierarchy is important. Mm. We, we look at that as a negative thing. And maybe we need to change the language on what that is, but the hierarchy, you know, it's like the tiers of, of sex work, obviously, who, like, there's street level and then there's the high class escorts, there's the perform, they're 1 (25m 35s): Different things. 0 (25m 36s): Performance and the, and the treatment of those, the behavior of of all of them are very different. And what they mean for your autonomy and your agency, your authenticity, you know, like we've transcended a lot of those lines. We've dabbled in various parts of that. I have a lot of friends that have too. And how they are psychologically and you know, what the, what how they, their reasons for why they entered the industry are vastly different. 2 (25m 60s): You're also, you've also navigated it with enormous privilege. Yeah, exactly. Enormous privilege. 0 (26m 4s): Exactly. But that's why we need to be able to recognize that. Like, I recognize my privilege and like, and that trips people out more by saying, yeah, this was a decision that I made. And then there's people that Yeah. That, that wasn't a decision that they made or, 1 (26m 16s): But it's more acceptable though to be the traumatic, like broken bird. Yes. Yeah. That, that ended up there. Yeah. Right. For no consequence of your own versus being like someone who's strong and in their power and said basically Right. And said, I made that choice. So like, yeah, you could say it's privileged, but it's, I don't know if that's necessarily accurate because the one that is going in there with autonomy and agency actually gets punished more. 0 (26m 36s): That's kind of how I felt. 1 (26m 37s): Like people wanna like rescue the other person and they like, they'll say say you didn't have a choice, so it's okay. The other one, it's like you are a bad girl. Yeah. You, you knew better. You had other options. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? 0 (26m 47s): You're lazy. You're lazy. They want the hero's journey of like, okay, so then you're out of it. So, right. Like, what are you doing better now? You're a better person now. 1 (26m 55s): Right. And it was wrong. Right. Like, 0 (26m 57s): Which is why Laura and I like, we don't like saying we were sex workers. We like, we still do stu 2 (27m 3s): Well, I still create content still. I have an only fan. I have 0 (27m 6s): One. So it's like, it's like saying no, we were that like, we're like, I work with sex workers as a coach. This is what got me into this space in the first place. 'cause I remember searching sex worker therapists, sex workers support group, you know, and there was nothing except for, for, you know, abuse victims and like street level escorts and trauma victims. And I was like, what about the autonomous sex worker? Like there's more shame in that, like you said, where it's like, what, I have to give some excuse. I have to give some origin story or else they, or else they, I'm just disposable. Like I'm not a lovable person. Right. 2 (27m 40s): I'm talking about moving the revolution forward. And that means not leaving anyone out. And that's why it's so challenging to change opinions around the stigma. Right. Because if we get on our soapbox, beautiful white women with a, you know what I mean? But if we get on our soapbox and we talk about this, that's one thing and maybe some minds will be changed, but how does it affect those workers that are in very different circumstances? How does it affect those workers that are doing it out of extreme survival and extreme control by a power over them 0 (28m 17s): Or of other races? 2 (28m 19s): How does it affect minority workers? That's the thing is that when you're doing activism or considering activism, you have to consider the whole lot of people. You can't just talk to one small group within the entirety of a community. You have to factor them all in. Yeah. Otherwise it's not a revolution. Yeah. Otherwise it's not benefiting everyone who wants, you know, their lives changed in this effort. And that's of course where it is. It feels, it feels like the impossible boulder up the hill. 0 (28m 53s): What do you think we do 2 (28m 55s): Organize, which seems to be the hardest part. Yeah. Organize. Yeah. I think there needs to be more bridges built between the communities within sex work. Not just, you know, the, the strippers union, not just the high end escorts union. Yeah. Not just, you know, the, it needs to be more bridges between all of them. And that does mean sometimes helping those who are in sex work but are in lesser advantage situations than 0 (29m 24s): Us. Well, I guess if that goes to your point, that goes with any union, right? It's like multiple workers come from very different origins. Right. And they're, they're very different individuals. So I think with sex work, we all expect everyone to be kind of the same makeup, the same psychological makeup. They're same, you know, catalyst, they're same. Why but everyone? So, so it's like, yeah, we have to unionize together and we have to band together no matter what your, your 2 (29m 50s): Why is. But then how do you factor in everyone's concerns and everyone's demands and everyone's dreams and goals. That's where again, it's like there are changes that we agree are universal. Yeah. But we don't know the experience of a black trans street worker. Yeah. That's not us. Yeah. You 0 (30m 7s): Know, we can hear about it, but we don't know. 2 (30m 9s): Right. So how do you move everyone safely towards revolution? Yeah. Towards a better life. Yeah. And that's always been the challenge. You know, we're starting to see more community building efforts happening now we're starting to see more conversations, more advocacy groups coming up and out. But how do we consider bringing everyone in together? I don't know. I'm opening this up to comments and, you know, and and replies and emails. Like, whoever has the quick fix, let us know. Yeah. 1 (30m 38s): See, I don't know. And this is where that hierarchy thing comes into play because the thing, the industries themselves are so different. So if you look at film for that would more be a parallel to mainstream film. Yes. So then that would make sense to have something like a SAG or a union. Yeah. Where I've done sets where I was on set for 16 hours, they didn't provide food, they didn't provide a break. Awesome. It was absolutely like not proper, like it was freezing without blankets or anything. And Yeah. Just insane. Right. And you're a contract girl, so you gotta stick like, you know, shut up and sit there and look pretty. That's very different than something that like escorting or prostitution. And that's more like gig work that I would see. 1 (31m 18s): Right. So then how do you regulate gig work if you don't really, it's independent contracting. So to that you don't really want to be regulated. 'cause the whole point of being an independent contractor is like, there's no ceiling. You can do whatever you want, work as much as you want, and it's not regulated. That's one of the beauties, beauties of doing something like that. So I think what I see, and it's not really well thought out yet, is it's not necessarily regulation, but it's like how do you protect the women and men that don't wanna be in that space, right. That are being victimized and being forced into sex work. How do you protect them? Get rid of the people that are forcing them to do it, and then just let the people that wanna do it do their thing. Right. 2 (31m 53s): That's the biggest issue right now. That's literally solve the world problem it feels like. 1 (31m 59s): Right. So it's a high penalty on what would be a pimp essentially. And that exists too, in, in the adult space. You have these people that used to go on Craigslist. I don't, I don't know how they do it now. Right, totally. And like, come down to Florida, make you all of this money. Like that should be heavily, heavily penalized. Yeah, I sure. 0 (32m 14s): Are you 1 (32m 14s): Talking about important? Yeah. They're 0 (32m 16s): Still around the, the hot girls wanted era 1 (32m 18s): 15 0 (32m 19s): Seconds of fame, 2 (32m 19s): But also the boyfriend that's leaching onto her career, right? Yeah. The one that's managing or quote unquote managing those business negotiations. Well 0 (32m 27s): And that was a big thing in, in Amsterdam talking to a lot of these women. They're like, no, it just, they're so grateful to have someone that sees them and like accepts them that no matter how he treats her, it's like, well, he's accepting this part. Yes, he's taking all my money, but he's here. And I'm like, no, it's, that's not what we're looking at here. We have to 1 (32m 46s): Well, that, yeah. And that's such a lie too though, is that once you do anything, once you've been naked in any capacity without shame, and especially for the public eye, that you're now unlovable and no one will Yes. Touch you. That's everyone I know that is in porn is married, has kids, they're actually in monogamous relationships now. Yes. I'm like, you have no idea. Let someone tell you, you owe you what your future holds because there are a lot of open-minded great men and women that won't have any problem. 0 (33m 10s): And and similar with your decisions. I I wonder if you can speak to this too, but like, I think you kind of have to go, it's like if you go to that extreme, if you're in sex work, if you're in that industry, you end up realizing the value of monogamy and commitment. And people that accept you in that space understand that too. And it's like, holy shit, if you can transcend that, like you win, like you really win. If you could, if, if you talk through the jealousy, the discomfort, all of that, the stigma and that person, whether that's a friend or a partner, friend and partners, whatever, and they stay with you. It's like you Yeah. You realize like the value of monogamous commitment. That's, and and, and the people really thrive on some sort of restrictions. 0 (33m 50s): Like they really do. Like I, I've done it all, been, you know, seen all of it, been a part of all of it. And then I landed back at like, no, like, I like a really quite simple like, committed life and like that gives me a lot of value and it gives me the freedom to be so expansive in every other area of my life once I have that foundation of trust. 2 (34m 10s): Imagine having like unsatisfied sexual curiosities and desires and just caging that 0 (34m 15s): Repression and like 2 (34m 16s): Just caging it your whole life. Yeah. And just like agreeing to a terms of a relationship or a life that does not suit you and trying to find fulfillment. At the end of the day, I, I can't, but that's most of the world that is most, 0 (34m 32s): Which is why they shame of the world. I, I wonder what if, if you get this, if people are, find it baffling that like you're and a happy marriage with like two children and they're like, how, how could that possibly be true? There's what, what's, what's the take here? Well, 1 (34m 45s): They automatically call him a cook. Which I think is so funny because I'm like, that's not an insult. Like, so if you're actually a cook, it's not an insult. They cook's quite enjoy being a cook. Yeah, yeah. That's the whole point of it. Yeah. And I mean he's not, he never has been. It's just not his jam. Yeah. You know, it, those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. Yeah. But that's usually the first thing it could, it's there's this weird cognitive dissonance like, if I can't do it, then no one can do it. I don't enjoy it. No one enjoys it. So they can't get beyond their own sense of self and their own perspective that they have. So it just must be wrong. And I don't know, it's like I think they're waiting for it. Everything to implode. Yeah. Or that it was all a ruse. I'm not really sure. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. 2 (35m 25s): Yeah. I think they definitely want us to stop the momentum that sexual liberation seems to be having right now with like the popularity of whether it is dating and hookup cultures, but living in New York, which you kind of do, you kind of do, you're honorary New Yorker 70% of the time. I mean it is wild with the last like five years have even done to that city. I mean, you're seeing more and more of these play parties pop up, more sexual theater experiences, more of these liberated events like at the Museum of Sex, more conversations like Yeah. For anyone that's against sex positivity, they must be really like stewing and brewing right now in anger because it does seem to be building in momentum. 1 (36m 4s): I agree with that. I think a misconception and what leads people to be so critical of it is that they see sex positivity as kind of bullying and pushing that perspective on course on everyone. It's like, it's like if you aren't a quote whore or a slut or if you're not sleeping around, if you're not participating in hookup culture, then you're actually, you're repressed and you're right. There's something wrong with you. And they see it as them being judged, which isn't the case. Like yes, that exists for sure. But that's, I wouldn't say that that's the core of what that means when I think about sex positivity, it's just conscious, like consciously deciding what your sexuality is and then making that choice with like an abundance of information and not just falling into this cookie cutter thing that everyone said is supposed to work. 1 (36m 44s): Which is so funny because if you look at the stats, it's almost 50% of marriages end up in divorce and then you take the let like, I think it's maybe 53% that that last Right. Like last until someone dies basically. So do you take that chunk? Well how many of them are actually happy? Yes. And have like aeros and love and passion in it. And then how many further delineate, how many are, are not cheating? Like how many of them are being faithful throughout? Yes. Grateful. So there's clearly something that needs to be tweaked a little bit and for some reason there's still a lot of shame or even just like resistance to even explore. Like, I can do things differently. And I was talking to one of my girlfriends and when we first met, she's like, I didn't know that you could do something else. 1 (37m 26s): And it actually almost kind of saved the relationship she was in because she's like, I have other options before. And she thought I was, I'm just supposed to be unhappy in this situation. I'm like, no, you can craft 0 (37m 35s): You like CNM, like 1 (37m 36s): Yeah, just yeah, craft it however you want. Like open it if you wanna open it. Like if everything else works, works, but the sexual dynamics not there. Okay, well why do you have to throw overing away? Just 'cause the sex not there. Why don't you just like introduce something else to fill that deficit? Because I kind of fall into the Esther Perel camp, which is not, you're not supposed to be everything to everyone all the time. That's a huge ask. Yeah. And maybe that works for some people. That doesn't work for me. State of fair. 0 (37m 59s): It doesn't individuation so important. Right. And that comes with the time. 2 (38m 2s): It's also a culture of acceptance more than ever before. And acceptance means doing well on social media. Acceptance means having a big friend group. Acceptance means not being a something that is pushing against the norm, right? Yeah. It's about going with the flow and staying with the majority conforming and so conformity and more than ever, that's what we need to feel secure. You know, anxiety's ticking up. And so the idea of stepping out of your regular routine, which has become familiar, and it may be serving you nothing. It may be complete feedback, loop of negativity, but the idea of stepping out of that for the unknown potential that you could be happier Yeah. 2 (38m 43s): Is just too scary. The pain, you know, it's 0 (38m 45s): The unknown, the pain, you know, versus the pain, 2 (38m 47s): You know? Thank you. It's the unknown. Yeah. And so it's like I can't make that change because that's the unknown. Yeah. I would rather just stay in my predictable controlled feedback loop. And if that means staying in a marriage that's not making me feel loved or sexy or worthy, fuck it. Yeah, I'll do that because I don't know what the other side holds. Yeah. 0 (39m 7s): And I, and, and it could be a very lonely place. Like I've only recently come out about my experiences over the past year because I realized if I'm gonna be working with sex workers, I can't come in on my high horse high and almighty. Like, oh, you know, like I know what to do with you without weaving in my own story. And since I've done that, it's, you realize there's very few of you, you know, that are radically honest, autonomous, and free there to express yourselves and, and your wholeness. But who cares because like, what, what's the downside of that? Like, it's like putting everyone through a siv. When you lead with your truth, you put everyone in your world and around you through a sve and it's like, those are the only people I care to engage with. 0 (39m 53s): The ones that are doing the same, that are also like open to growth. I'm not saying I know it all. I, I realize how little I know on the other end of that. I'm like, teach me more. Like now that I've been, I was siloed off for so long and now that I'm open, I'm like, what else? Don't I know what else is on the other side? And 2 (40m 7s): I'm just trying to play the balance card here in saying again, it's a privilege to be able to make that announcement Yeah. And integrate into the world this way because a lot of people doing these jobs, if they took that chance, could be in fatal danger based on who they live with, how they live the world around them, the family, they're a part of. Like yes. The liberation in being able to say that, oh my goodness, I hope that it does make changes seriously. That's why we're having these conversations. Well, well 0 (40m 40s): Kurt Fowler says like, when it comes to sex work, money is the great equalizer, which with drugs too, like, you know, anything illegal, taboo, whatever, money is a great equalizer. If you don't, if you're not making money, if like this had been my past and I had nothing to show for it, people, it would've been like, oh, that's horrible. Right. That's embarrassing. That like, there's no story here. There's no, there's no, there's no heroes journey here. Hero journey. 2 (41m 4s): You know, I'm gonna keep 0 (41m 5s): Running back to the hero journey, which I'm still on. Our world 2 (41m 8s): Needs it, doesn't it? 0 (41m 9s): Yeah. But so money. But it, it's like there's, it's almost tacitly accepted, especially with content creators. Like I, I lived in LA for many years and, and sex workers, there's a lot of high class escorts and content creators that everyone knows, but no one talks about it and it's because they've done so well in it. Yeah. That it's like, oh no, you're among us now. We still don't wanna talk about it. And we'll still bash it in social circles. And women bashing other women is major. The women that are doing the very thing, it's the whole hiding in plain sight thing. Again, it's wild to see. But money again. And like I I will say that's, that's certainly my case. Like if I, if I was street level, then I wouldn't be talking about this. Right. 2 (41m 48s): Right. Yeah. 1 (41m 50s): Yeah. And then I guess it also falls into, if you are in a, in a position where you have more of a traditional lifestyle with all that, I dunno if you saw there was a professor and he and his wife were making content and then there was something else he was doing with PornHub, but he, it, he got outed essentially and they fired him. Of course. So now it's like a huge first amendment issue. And it's so funny because even though it is in the first amendment, people are still really trying to have it stripped away. And they're like, well it's not an expression, like not all expression is should be allowed. And I agree with that. Like you shouldn't be able to just go punch someone in the face. Right. That's, you shouldn't be able to express that. Right. Yeah. But we have decided that sexual expression is valid and there is like an active movement to kind of get that eroded. 1 (42m 30s): Yeah. Do you see that happening? Or do you see more cases where this professor is gonna, he's count, he's suing the university. I think he's gonna win. And then you have more of these and he's married. He's married and it was was content with his wife too. It's like 2 (42m 42s): Censorship like the 0 (42m 43s): Dream. 1 (42m 43s): Which is so interesting though too because this is where I see change happening, right? You build bridges on opposing sides, you don't do it within yourself. So it goes back to the echo chamber issue. So when it comes to people that are more left when it comes to political ideology, they tend to be more sex positive. I would almost venture there's probably no Republicans downstairs. Right. And there might be a handful of independents, like I'm probably the most right leaning person here. Yeah. Maybe ala second. Yeah. Where we come together is through censor censorship completely. So we had the left that was like so pro censorship during the pandemic. Like they were like censor the Republicans, these crazy people that follow Alex Jones and these conspiracy theories, right. Like censor them, de platform them. 1 (43m 23s): But then their OnlyFans gets their account taken down on on Instagram and they're like, how dare they censor me? I'm a sex worker. 0 (43m 31s): So true. 1 (43m 31s): It's against women. I was like, okay, well how about we come together and just say, right, the first amendment matters for all of us. And actually, even though I don't like what you're saying, it's my duty to uphold that because when it's my turn, when someone doesn't like what I'm doing, I know that you're gonna come from me. Yeah. So like, it's not just for the things that make us feel good or the things that make us feel seen and validated. It's like the thing that triggers us. Like yes. Fucking say that louder crazy guy in the back because when it's my turn, hopefully you'll be there for me too. Yeah. 0 (43m 57s): That's 2 (43m 59s): Literacy around it. Yeah. Just literacy around. It really is what I think the solution is. You know, if you're listening to someone's opinion, understand whose opinion it is. Yeah. Understand what it's founded in and understand that perspective they're coming from. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. I don't think censorship is the answer. No. I think it's putting the, the emergency that is sex education in this country into high alarm and high alert. I think that, you know, that is an area of Americana that, you know, we can't expect schools to have a compassionate and a factual and a consistent sex education throughout the curriculum of the grades. 2 (44m 40s): We're not gonna get that and state by state, we're gonna see a lot of changes in what that sex education looks like. So my solution is like, can we not just get some ethical sex education that is factual online somewhere. Yeah. Online and accessible to all, not behind a paywall. Make it a fucking animation if you don't wanna see real body parts because that's too much. Yeah. But no, we can't because censorship exists. Yeah. And because the vetting software on platforms like YouTube are just looking for anything that says, oh, meta, 0 (45m 10s): I can't say 2 (45m 11s): Intimacy. It's not, it's not Oh really? About 0 (45m 13s): Intimacy. I, intimacy is blocked. Whoa. Yeah. Intimacy obviously orgasm sexuality. Yeah. But then you have these creators that are like, I, I also, did you see the other day when I posted a woman giving birth in a car? And that's, I've seen that and I'm like, this allowed, but I can't talk about intimacy. Right. Like or positive sexuality. Right. Or bodily autonomy. Right. 2 (45m 34s): That's our world though. Yeah. I think that's a huge 0 (45m 36s): Issue and yeah. Yeah. So what's with that regression? You know, 1 (45m 40s): I think, so the devil's advocate here, love it. If you make everything okay. Again, it's just like saying nothing is without shame and everything's on board. One of the downsides with something like OnlyFans is how accessible it is. Because I think a decision like that needs to be well thought out. Just because even just the social consequences that come outta that, the cultural consequences, you're gonna have relationships fall out if you make that decision to show your body online. The internet is forever and you will lose so many opportunities permanently. I'm not saying that's okay, but that is the way that it is right now. It's our world. So you have an 18-year-old, which I think is way too young. Yes. To, especially for anything that's filmed in online. I, I would like it up to 25 because I mean, your brain's not done till you're 2 (46m 22s): Thirties 1 (46m 22s): Adult. Yeah. You just don't, and you get so intoxicated with all of the bullshit that makes you wanna make that decision. It's not an, a decision made out of authenticity, trying to find yourself, trying to develop yourself sexually. Essentially. It's, I wanna get famous and I want money sense so I get the right. So it's like if you, if you have everything that's not censored and you can just say sex, sensuality, orgasm, all of this stuff, and you have these young girls that are just getting in inundated with, this is where my value is gonna come from. Yeah. It's almost like Cosmo and how toxic was that? Of course. Of course. Of course. On steroids. Yes. So I don't know what the solution is. I know some people are trying to make social media up to 13. I still think that's too young. I like the 2 (46m 56s): Age gate and porn idea. Yeah. 1 (46m 58s): I should 2 (46m 59s): Be age grade in adult content 0 (47m 0s): Creation. You mean with 25? 25 Gerald? I, I think like that's when I entered sex work and if I have other friends that that's all they've ever done. And they, that's, I don't agree with that because, and I feel for them because they don't know how to get out. They're Yeah. That even get out. But like, that's all they know. Yeah. That's all they know, that's all that they think their value is ascribed to. And I'm always trying to be like, but you're so good at this, you're so good at this and your brain works this way. But I had so much other lived experience in other realms, like in other careers before I happened to cross this. And it was a very thought out decision. You know, I did it to fund a startup. 0 (47m 40s): Like, 'cause I ran out of runway and then I was like, wow, I kind of am interested in this. And it, it, it, I again was like getting a master's in psychology. But yeah. Because if I even look at who I was then at 25 versus who I am now at 35, even that is a massive jump. Right. So I do, and that brings you back to like the conversation of consent and the age of consent in, is it, what is it in Sweden? The age of consent's? 14. Whoa. 2 (48m 9s): Don't get don't look for stats from me right now. Yeah. It altitude 0 (48m 12s): Has taken all that. It's, it's 14. There's 1 (48m 14s): A couple states that it's still 16, which I think is bonkers. 0 (48m 16s): Yeah. So, and who are the people like seriously though? Who are the people like, whoa, you know what it should be? I think it should be 1 (48m 21s): 14. This goes back to California though, and being how fucking nutty Scott Wiener is. I, I hate this man with a passion. He, so I feel like anything when it comes to legislation, everything is a slippery slope. So you can pass something within. And I'm not, I think he has bad intention. So I'll say that. But let's say someone who doesn't have bad intention, they're trying to do something and they see it as empathetic, progressive, whatever it is. You can pass legislation for X, but you have no idea the implication or how that evolution of that passing is gonna be fair. So once it's legal, it's almost like you're opening Pandora's box and you don't know how that thing is gonna be mutated and distorted down the road. How 2 (48m 55s): It affects this is 1 (48m 55s): The culture. Exactly. And that happens with almost everything. You legalize something and then it kind of turns into this other thing. Bastardizing. So he, 2 (49m 2s): Yeah, it ruined weed for me. Can I just say it's, it ruined weed for me. 1 (49m 6s): I agree. 2 (49m 6s): Now it's like supercharged, blasted 1 (49m 8s): Shit. I that need that. Right? I didn't need that. It's so far from when it's supposed to be. Yeah. So he, we made a leg, a piece of legislation and I think it passed to move medical consent to 12. So you are telling me, oh, medical consent to 12, tell me that doesn't go to consent later. 'cause it absolutely fucking will. But also we, it's the same people that were saying you as an adult are not capable of doing your own research online. Leave that to the white jackets and the fancy people with PhD or MD at the end of their, their title. But a 12-year-old can. 0 (49m 39s): Wow. 1 (49m 40s): So, yeah, I mean it is, what's the 0 (49m 42s): Logic there? What's his logic? 1 (49m 43s): Because he was saying that kids at 12 years old, you are able to make choices about your body. And if you have a parent, especially a Republican parent who doesn't agree, well, you know, you need to protect yourself. Right. You need to go get the CO shot because your parent is, you know, they're, they're too far gone. Yeah. So we're gonna give you autonomy. And it's like this weird, it's like this weird division that people are trying to make within the family. Unit 12. You cannot consent to shit at 12. 0 (50m 8s): Totally. And, and you 2 (50m 10s): Can't. I was very mature at 12, like extremely, however, I wouldn't trust me to YiIVEM 0 (50m 15s): Regressed 1 (50m 16s): Make a medical decision. Yeah. I 2 (50m 17s): Thought that's 12. 0 (50m 19s): Wow. Yeah. Well also I think we, 1 (50m 20s): I've been like, give me Pamela Anderson boobs now. 0 (50m 23s): Right now. Yeah. I think we're also like the euphoria age, right? It's like we're looking, kids are looking for individualism and they're going to these extremes instead of focusing on humanism. Like what actually makes you, you, they're like, okay, and then we're getting all this ident identify as a goat or a four or a, whatever it is. And they don't know their own sexuality. They're still, God, I'm still working in it out at times. Right. So like, how the hell do you know at 12 You don't, and they just wanna be radical. 'cause the culture now is like these extremes of like, how do I get noticed? How do, how do I make a mark with social media propagating that? Of course. And it's like, I don't really, yeah, of course there are special cases where it's like they firmly believe they were born in the wrong sex and like I believe that, but I'm seeing so much more amplified 1 (51m 9s): The numbers don't reflect it. They 0 (51m 11s): Exactly. They don't. Yeah. They don't. 1 (51m 13s): Yeah. 'cause they exist. I think anyone that denies that it, that's like your own. Of course. Yeah. Your own ideology. Yeah. But it does the exponential growth year over year doesn't make sense. And then if you do look at, at the work, and she's like very controversial. Abigail Schreyer, it's, and this is the funny thing, is over 90% of the kids end up being gay. And I say just gay. And I'm like that, that's how far we've come is I'm like, oh, they're just gay. Yeah. Where it used to be like, you're gay, you're broken, go to some kind of camp. It's like, oh, you're gay. Right. Yeah. So it's almost in a weird, in a weird way, it's, it's kind of like a, it's saying that it's not okay to be gay. It's not okay to be like a more feminine Yeah man. Or a more masculine, 0 (51m 50s): It's not marginalized enough. Right. 1 (51m 51s): It's, there's this weird need to have to have a label or a sense of identity with anything. And just saying like, I'm a human, having human experiences. Right. And this isn't my identity. The thing is too, when it comes to, we're 0 (52m 2s): Obsessed with 1 (52m 2s): Labels, right? So yeah. It's like, oh, like you are a sex worker or you are a porn star. Like that's, no, it's like something I did. That's not who I am. Exactly. And my sexuality is the same thing. It is like a life force. It's very important. But I think if you're identifying yourself, which is this one thing that that's also a problem. Yeah. Especially when you're little and the, to talk about the whole furry and animal thing. Like that's happening in my town where they actually had to bring in litter boxes for the kids. Oh, I read about 0 (52m 25s): That. Are 1 (52m 26s): You serious? Yes. It's happening in my town, North Carolina. And this kid was actually scratching people, which is obviously violent and not okay, but he, oh my god, their cat. So it's okay. How old was the 0 (52m 35s): Kid? 1 (52m 36s): I think they're like 10. And they brought in a litter box. And you're telling me that that's not child abuse. Use the fucking toilet. There's cats that use the toilet. The 2 (52m 44s): Child used the 1 (52m 44s): Litter box. Litter box. And we're saying that that's compassionate and, and Okay. Oh 0 (52m 48s): Yeah. Where do they draw the 1 (52m 49s): Lines? That's abuse. Yeah, that's abuse. Wow. 0 (52m 52s): Well 1 (52m 53s): We gotta wrap for, 0 (52m 54s): For Yes. And we'll do part 1 (52m 56s): Two and it'll be great Wardrobe change. Wardrobe. Wardrobe change. Yes. We'll coordinate outfits for 0 (53m 2s): Dinner. Other I do. Yeah. I need my color 2 (53m 3s): Wardrobe change. I need 0 (53m 4s): My color scheme here. Cool. It was just, that was fun. Yeah, we 1 (53m 7s): Were just getting ready, riled up. Where can everyone follow you? Where's 2 (53m 10s): My direct? Thank you. You. Yeah, you can get in touch with me on my website, Laura. Oh no, no. It's changed. You can get in touch with me on my website, the laura desiree.com. But otherwise across all social media, Laura x, Desiree, 0 (53m 26s): And I am at the Unreal Coral Osborne on Instagram and Coral osborne.com is my website. Thank you ladies. We'll see you in a little bit. Thank.