Scott Barry Kaufman is a psychologist, author, and podcaster. His recent book Transcend has been getting a lot of attention for the way that Scott redefines Maslow's hierarchy of needs. In this episode we talk about neurodiversity, self actualization (what the heck that is), redefining intelligence, and whether or not I'm a psychopath.
Follow Scott on twitter https://twitter.com/sbkaufman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Here is his website which has more information on his upcoming projects and his books, https://scottbarrykaufman.com/
Support the show (http://patreon.com/candicehorbacz)
0 (0s): You know, like what if we just didn't judge people like w w w is that a radical idea? 1 (6s): Radical? That's the craziest thing that's been said on my, all of my podcasts. Hello, everybody. You're listening to Chatting with Candice I'm your host. Candice score back before we get started on this week's episode. If you want to support the podcast, you can go to Chatting with Candice dot com. From there, you can either sign up for a patriotic account where you get early access to episodes, shout outs, and eventually some AMS, or you can click that little link that says, buy me coffee. Both things help me out with a ton I'm new to podcasting. Every single dollar really does make a difference this week. I want to give a shout out to Oscar mottos, RAs. I hope I didn't put your, your name, but thank you so much for being a Patrion. 1 (50s): I really appreciate your support. And I'm glad to have you. This week. We had a very special guests. We have Scott Barry Kaufman at joining the podcast. His most recent book is Transcend where he kind of re evaluates Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And if you don't know what that is totally fine. We get into all of that in layman's terms. This was a really awesome conversation. We got into some really fun topics. He's just such a nice guy. So I really hope that you enjoy the podcast. Give him a Follow. He's got some really cool courses that he's offering as well, which he'll plug towards the end of the podcast. So enjoy. 0 (1m 31s): Well, it was a really funny you brought us together. So I just wanna say, thank you for giving us spring as a reunion. I'll send you, I'll send you the Twitter exchange. I think you'll get a kick out of it. 1 (1m 41s): Definitely. Well, yeah, he's a really funny guy. I love him. Well, let's do this thing. So I first stumbled upon your word Twitter account, and I really like, you caught my eye with like your hashtag and I had already had your book and all of that. And I was like, Oh, he like promotes Neurodiversity and you don't hear that term a lot. So for a lot of people be like, well, what does that sound like? A big fancy words. And that just means like different kinds of brains and different kinds of thinking. And some people that maybe have like disabilities or quirks, right? Like, that's kind of like a layman's way to put it, I guess, what kind of got you into an advocacy for that? Because I listened to one of your YouTube videos where you did a Ted talk and you were talking about your experience with the education system. 1 (2m 27s): And I was smiling ear to ear, listening to you to listen to you to talk like you have like such a wonderful storytelling presence about you. So if you could, for the listeners kind of give you a background because it is just so fun. 0 (2m 40s): Thank you. I really appreciate that you brought up the Neurodiversity, that's actually a topic than a lot of interviews. Don't bring up with me anymore. And they did a while ago when the one of my first book, my book on gifted came out on intelligence, but more recently people haven't brought it up. So thank you. Any opportunity I can get a chance to talk about that really lights me up. It's something I'm really passionate about when I was a kid, I had an auditory learning disability, so I just had a lot of fluid in my ears. Like the first three years of my life, I was essentially deaf. And so a teacher's a thought I was, they thought I was stupid. And I mean, to be fair to them, I did kind of, I was a bit slow. It's a reasonable inference, but no, Nope. 0 (3m 21s): I like, I like being cheeky, but no, I, it was like, it took me a cash for a couple seconds milliseconds to process information in real time through hearing. So, yeah. And in class I looked like checked out. So I became, I was a bit of a trouble maker. Like I became look at the class clown I've used like humors in my way of life. You know, that was always in the detention officer or like, why would we make all the kids laugh? Like it disrupts the material. I'm like, well, it's more interesting than the materials, but anyway, so, but, so I really was, it was frustrating, like, like growing up with this learning disability, but the big insight that I, that I felt like I had as a kid growing up about human potential is that all my friends in special ed, we were all the troublemakers were the outcasts we were considered, you know, were the ones that are like smokers, RO you know what? 0 (4m 4s): I feel like the ones that everyone is like, Oh, you don't talk to those freaks. But I felt like they had so much greater potential than anyone realized, you know, like the teachers didn't give them a, a credit even like when I hung out with them, I didn't feel like their parents believed in them. And I just felt like a real young age. Like I, I kind of knew in my, in my gut that I wanted to kind of devote my life to helping bring out the full potential and people, especially those who may appear slow or not as smart or, or a whole number of reasons. I'm really interested in neuro diversity. And I'm so glad you brought that up because, you know, I think that like, you know, this discussion of diversity, I think that gets left out of the D of the discussion because people are focusing and that's fine, you know, it to talk about racial and gender issues. 0 (4m 51s): But I do feel like the deeper aspects of our brain functioning and the way we see the world and perceive things aren't just skin deep, I think are really important discussions to bring it to the diversity of a discussion. And I'd love to hear what you think of that. 1 (5m 5s): So when I was listening to your story, you had mentioned that you were trying to get into the gifted classes and you scored poorly. So they were like, well, what do you mean? Like you don't belong here because this one test says you can't go there. And my husband who I actually, I mean, everyone's on the same bias, but he is like a very intelligent man, but he was in the, like the slow classes. Most of his life, he has like pretty moderate 80 add, not ADHD, but add. And his brain just works differently, but anytime we were, I'm joking with him, I call him like a beautiful mind, the way he just like pieces and like pulls and puts things together is just different than anyone I've met. 1 (5m 47s): So they would just say that you're stupid because he's not doing it the way that all of the other kids are doing it. So for a long time, he had to kind of fight that story that was like engraved into his brain since childhood, which is why you're dumb. You're not good enough. You're never going to be successful. And you're always going to be, you know, with the dummies. So it took him until like probably, you know, twenties, maybe even thirties for him to be like, this is actually my potential. And just because I don't perform a, on a standardized test, that doesn't mean that that's the full capability of what I can do. So I guess moving forward, because you see a huge spike with, especially with boys with add and ADHD. Oh yeah. So how do we add autism? 1 (6m 28s): And yeah. And then actually I have two nieces that our, on the spectrum as well. So you just see what they learn differently. Not that they're stupid, right. They just, they need a different Avenue. So how do we get this kind of like broadly implemented into the education system, instead of just saying you can't do any better than this. I just be quiet. Go to the small room, go on the small bus and you know, that's where you're going to be forever. 0 (6m 53s): Is your, is your husband around by any chance? He's upstairs. Can I get, can I talk to him for a second? Give him some, give them some hope about his mind. 1 (7m 1s): One second. Let me grab him. 0 (7m 2s): Oh, Hey, how's it going? Hello, sir. How are you? Hey, what's your name? Eric. Hi, Eric. Nice to meet you. I, as a kid, when I had this arbitrary, a learning disability, I developed add up the kazoo personally as well. And what I've discovered in my research and everything I've done in In more and more recent years is that it has a lot of creative gifts. And there's like a part of the brain that it has to do with the imagination that is enhanced In people with add. And so I've tried to rethink it as a overactive imagination disorder or not as a anything else. So I don't know. I wanted to give you some hope that's a different, different framing of the way you may be either yourself. 0 (7m 47s): Cause I don't know if you're like me, if you were bullied as a kid at all or anything, but I don't know bullied is the word, but it's definitely like, so growing up, I went to a Catholic school a first through eighth grade and I know that at some point, I don't know, maybe it was like, it started probably a third grade or they just stuck here in a basement and they're like, okay, well you have a learning disability go to this smaller class with a couple of different kids. And, and then I don't know, we'll see where it goes from there, but it was, it was far less of a curriculum, right. It wasn't really challenging whatsoever. And it was really just, I wasn't like overactive as a kid. I was more like I just daydreamed. Right? Yeah. So then you're like, okay, you have a learning disability because you came that's exactly right. Yeah. 0 (8m 26s): Daydreaming is, is a, I've been trying to bring that back is a positive thing. So what is the, what's the, what is it? What part of the brain? Like what makes it a different, yeah, I'll send you the article. I wrote a article for scientific American called the creative gifts of add that, that maps out that and the neuroscience of that, but it's called the default mode brain network. And I've called it the imagination network because I found, I thought default mode, brain network was a boring name for it, but it's, it's, it's not the part that has to do with your attention focus. I'm in the world, out, out, out there. And it actually has to do with your ability to, to imagine focus on your inner world. So it turns out with people at the D actually has an enhanced inner world, even though from the outside, it looks like they're checked out or they can't concentrate. 0 (9m 8s): It's because they're getting so much interference from their wonderfully rich mind. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack M Candice is a podcast, but I wanted to, to just, if I could offer you any understanding at all of your brain. That's awesome. That's good. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. My pleasure. 1 (9m 34s): And I'm back. 0 (9m 35s): That was an unexpected. Yeah, that was 1 (9m 37s): I'm glad though, that you guys had something to talk about. 0 (9m 40s): Yeah, me too. That was wonderful. Thanks for doing that. 1 (9m 42s): Of course. I don't know if he mentioned, cause I was upstairs watching the babe, but one of the things he worries about his, like our son getting, you know, add this, I think it's suggested that it's a hereditary and how we help him with school. And I can't remember what podcast I was listening to. It was a parenting podcast, but they had said that some of the top boys schools around the world actually don't have desks or tables or I'm sorry, chairs rather so that the boys can like run around and like get their physical energy out and then act and still learn and actually improves what they retain. Okay. 0 (10m 23s): Yeah. That's right. Like if you can arrange a school system in a particular way, that's conducive to that kind of mind, you actually get extraordinary things out of them. And that's the thing that's the most heartbreaking. I think about the way we set up our education or a one size all fits education system, because the, really the ones who benefit the least from it are tend to be the ones that could make the most creative contribution to our society. So yeah, it there's, there's, there's a lots of things you can do, you know, for the add mind, you know, the, the, these kinds of these, these kids just well have to have a personal project that they can get involved in and they love experiential learning and being able to kind of get in that flow state, you know, that, that, that complete absorption state it's a paradox is once they get into that state, they can focus better than any motherfucker. 0 (11m 11s): I don't know if I can curse them, but I mean, that, that's the really exciting thing, you know, it's like, don't mess with them. Don't mess with a person with add and flow. 1 (11m 20s): That's how he is too. Like if he's like really into a book or an article or podcast, I could be a foot away from him and I'm like a baby. And he's like, totally unaware. Like you can not break that man's attention. So yeah, it has definitely a paradox, but we're definitely, we're trying to navigate it and find books to help us prepare just in case that he is. Because like we mentioned, it's not really set up for anyone with any kind of diversity, right? It's like, this is the way that you learn. And it just doesn't work for a lot of kids, which I see some university is getting rid of the SATs and everyone's like causing a fit about it. But when you meet someone like my husband, I mean, he sucks at those things and it D it doesn't, 0 (12m 0s): I suck, I suck those things. Oh yeah. 1 (12m 4s): So it's not like a proper representation of like who he is or what he's capable of. So, I mean, I'm for getting rid of those tests personally. 0 (12m 11s): Yeah. I can't concentrate in like a two hour standardized tests. It's like so boring. 1 (12m 18s): Do we get so much anxiety when we had like the state tests in high school and then purp, like, it would end up doing awful just because of my anxiety. Yeah. So I did want to talk about your book Transcend and what I think is interesting His Maslow's hierarchy. So not everyone is going to know what that is, especially if they never took it like a psych class, or it's been like a really long time, but essentially it's a different, it's a pyramid of needs. Right. And then you kind of like redefined that. So I want to talk about how you kind of turn the pyramid into a sailboat. And then I also noticed that you got rid of like the base model, which was physiological and if there was a reason for that. 0 (13m 0s): Sure. So have you heard of, or have you seen like the famous pyramid of hierarchy of needs? I think people were, everyone kind of learns it in their introductory psychology classroom where you have this pyramid with a, with basic physiological needs of the bottom, and then you have a security needs and connection, belonging and self-esteem needs. And then boom, you go up to self-actualization if you've got all of that and then your, your self actualize. Well, it, it turns out when I was digging into the writings of Abraham mass or the humanistic psychologist who is credited for that. He never actually drew a pyramid in any of his writings. When I was working through his unpublished and published writings, I really got absorbed in that. 0 (13m 42s): And I was like, where is a pyramid pyramid? You know? So, so I was like, got to tell people about this and, and, and, and, and some other researchers were independently also discovering that he never had a pyramid. And the Todd Bridgman a In colleagues wrote a really cool paper about tracing it to a 1960s, organizational psychologist, who I believe it started off as a step ladder with the man self-realized at the top with the flag pole, because only men can be self-realized or in the sixties, I guess. And, and so that was like the kind of idea about this. And when you actually dig into the writings of Maslow, you realize that a, what do we really emphasize was the difference between security and growth, that sort of that dance one on one could say, we don't feel as though we can fully grow and, and get outside of our comfort zone and take risks when we are motivated by deficiency. 0 (14m 42s): So I really liked just as his distinction between the deficiency, motivation and growth motivation. I think we're seeing a lot of deficiency motivation now. And I don't know if you noticed 2 (14m 53s): In America just a little bit. 0 (14m 57s): Okay. It seems like everyone is motivated by efficiency, right? Like everything is like, and, and that you tend to see that under situations where there is a society that doesn't feel stable. And this is a very common thing that you'll see in a society. It doesn't feel stable as a society that people cling to their tribes. They claim you, you, you know, they're, they're, it's very cyclical in human nature, and it's almost, it's also a very predictable, you know, based on what we know about human nature, but I thought a better metaphor then the pyramid that the Manson never drew was a sailboat. And I didn't know if you wanted me to talk about the self doubt, 2 (15m 31s): Definitely. And definitely why you chose a sailboat rather than the pyramid. 0 (15m 38s): Well, the pyramid kind of connotes like a way of life as a video game in some way, right? Like you reach some level of need, like a certain threshold, like the need for belonging and your reach a certain level of belonging. And then like, it's like, this is the voice from above his like, congrats, you've been lost connection 2 (15m 53s): That he can move and do 0 (15m 55s): The connection. You don't have to worry about like the one below it ever again. And I don't think that that's the best framing for one's existence, you know, because no, one's exempt from a returning to a lower needs. A when internally, you know, we have been flown out of it in and out of it. Right. We can pretend like, Oh, my self esteem sorted. I don't need to worry about that anymore. I'm just self actualizing, baby. 2 (16m 22s): Well, I'll call you, but you, but I'm saying, okay, 0 (16m 26s): Okay. And, but, you know, but the problem with a person who says that is that, that, you know, give them some critical feedback and don't tell me that they don't, they don't prove 2 (16m 39s): The fall of two to 0 (16m 41s): The self esteem need, but you know, you know, it's like, I can, I can, I can feel as like self actualized is, can be some days. And then like, if I write a tweet that I'm really excited about and gets like one, like I'm like, okay, 2 (16m 51s): <inaudible> served at least three likes, you know, so you do, you know what I mean? So 0 (17m 1s): It's all about the point I wanted to emphasize in my book in with the sailboat is that we are one whole operating unit. We need to integrate ourselves and we need to be a homeowner as a unit. We're all the parts of ourselves are working with each other, not against each other. And we don't feel like we're fighting a civil war within ourselves, which is how Maslow put it. So a sailboat is more of like an experience through the vast unknown of the sea. And, and I think that's what life really is. You know, it's to life is to be experienced, to go on adventures, to get outside your comfort zone, to grow, to realize your full potentiality is, but also acknowledging that if our boat has too many holes in it, if our basic needs are so deficient like our needs for a connection, a safety and, and self esteem, if the, if there is so low, we don't feel comfortable enough opening our sale and being fully vulnerable. 0 (17m 56s): But once we have a, a certain level, a where we feel like the boat's secure, then we have to grow. You know, you have to open that sale someday. You know, if you're gonna grow and you're just not going to grow, you know, this like just being secure, it doesn't equal growth. Right? So going in the sea and knowing that the, the, the, the, the winds and the waves can come crashing down with us at any point. Right. But we still move in our purposeful direction with a spirit of exploration and love. And, and that's, that's the cell wall metaphor in a nutshell. 1 (18m 32s): So you brought up Mo like deficiency motives. Can you elaborate a little bit of what those, what those are for the listeners? So when I hear that, I think kind of like growth mindset versus limited mindset a little bit, and some people might get, Oh, I dunno, maybe a little bit more on guard about this, because it's like, its whether or not like you're looking at things from like an introspective way or an extra, or like, or from the outside, like life happens to me, not for me kind of a thing or those, because I think people when shit hits the fan and let's say like your life and especially right now, like given 2020 and the very beginning of 2021, it's very understandable that people are going through a very rough time, like on a walks. 1 (19m 17s): So I think sometimes it's a little bit more satisfying to be able to point outward and say, this is the reason rather than reframing it because there's always a way to look at things with gratitude and be able to kind of like open up your sailboat or like move your way up that pyramid. Does that make sense? So like looking at things from a deficiency, a motivator would be like, I lost my job. I haven't been able to see my family and I'm going to be in this negative spiral. And then you have your physiological and your safety parts of the pyramid. Just kind of like buckling under you a little bit. But if you were to reframe that and then find the source of gratitude and the source of purpose, then it wouldn't be as detrimental to your growth. 0 (19m 60s): I run article for scientific American called is a time for a personal growth mindset to distinguish it from a growth mindset. And what I mean by that is you want, I think we want to make sure that we're choosing making decisions that are helping us grow as a whole person and not just one part of us, a lot of people. So that's why a distinct between a growth, motivation and a growth mindset. What I'm here today to promote on my, on this podcast of yours is a growth, motivation, not a growth mindset. And other that may be taboo in certain circles to say that there's enough people promoting a growth mindset that I think there's room there's space for me to promote a growth of motivation. And I, and the difference as I see it is that, you know, you can have a growth mindset up the kazoo for, for the wrong, right. 0 (20m 48s): You could, you could have all of the growth mindset on the world that do well on standardized tests. And yet you let all these other aspects of your being just flounder. You could have the biggest growth, the growth mindset to like you and grit. You know, grit is another big one and a love of my love, Angela Duckworth and the work she does. But that's the way, the way the, again, the way it's applied sometimes, you know, it's like, it's, it's a it's as if the characteristic of grit and growth motivation, or a growth mindset. It's like that that in and of itself is all that matters, right? But the context of the rest of your self is what matters, you know, are you made to me a growth motivation is what are you making decisions that are leading to greater integration and wholeness in, in, in, in, in, in who you are when we're deficiency motivated, we're making decisions that only are to defend ourselves a, when we were in the efficiency, motivation, where we're, we're often like treating ourself like a Fort, there needs to be protected at all costs. 0 (21m 52s): And it, and that tends to lead to rigidity in thinking right. You see that right now in, in, in, in every extreme direction, every radicalization is, is there's this very, a rigidity aspect to it, right? That's, you know, that's being motivated by deficiency, but when you're motivated by growth is the motivation you're, you're constantly asking yourself, will this decision or a goal help me grow as a whole person. And that Abraham Maslow has a great quote. Then I'll be cold and gray Abraham as all day long, he has this great quote. He has this great quote what's not worth doing is not worth doing well. And again, I hope, I hope my point makes sense. You can have a growth motivation towards a goal that isn't right for you and then why, and then why, so we should just be a reward. 0 (22m 38s): Oh, great. Look, you had the growth mindset. You're amazing. You know, you're amazing. You're wonderful. It's like, no, that wasn't actually the right goal for that person. You know, you have, you see a lot of posturing, you see a lot of people who think they should be someone else, or they think they should be in their career or, or, or, or they, or you can, you can kind of tell, you can use kind of tell people who are, are not comfortable in their own skin, that sort of thing. And, and, and, you know, my heart breaks sometimes. And I see some of that because it is, it, you just want to say to that person, like, you know, you know, like their decisions that are, that will be right for you and you should have confidence to take those decisions. Does that make sense? 1 (23m 16s): Yeah, it totally makes sense. So I guess if you find yourself, I guess self-awareness as a part of it, but when you find yourself, maybe I'm in a habit of making decisions based off of like deprivation or lack, how do you, or is it possible to start looking at things differently if you don't have those basic needs met? Like if you don't have that safety met or that connection met, because I think a lot of people are struggling with that now. So it's like, how do we make these improvements? When were still being told we can't see each other or like, I still can't open my business or whatever your reason is because it is such a crazy time. So is it possible to reframe the way that you're thinking when you have all of the external factors coming at you? 1 (23m 57s): It's super hard. 0 (23m 60s): Yes, I do think so. And I think that if a, one of the, a, one of the founders of this humanistic philosophy that I live with my life by Victor Frankl, if he can, it, Oh, great, great. If he can, he's influenced my work a lot as a modern day, humanistic psychologist, I, I consider him a foundation of, of my work. You know, if he and others and in the concentration camp could find moments of joy, then anyone can be okay, like you don't come on. And then let's be honest. The thing is you're in con you know, you're in control of, you know, the, the Jew, you don't, no one can Rob you of, of your capacity to create meaning and to have hope in your head for, for the future. 0 (24m 46s): And if you let people win, if you let that happen, then, then you're, you're letting that happen. You know? And, and to a certain degree now, I think it's a complex issue. 'cause when we talk about mental illness or people who are suffering with like, severe, like depression, for instance, I'm the last thing you want to tell someone, depression His Oh, just be happy, just be joyful. And I want to be very nuanced demands this because I don't think that's, I'm the best way to help someone with depression. But I will say that one of the best Remedy's and not Remy, that sounds corny and remedies for a mental illness, like sound like a mother's home remedy, the best hotter topic for a mental illness. 0 (25m 29s): Sometimes I say like, words that don't mean to say, or just say that the one of the best and ways to help reduce the suffering of someone with depression. That's what I'm trying to say is actually helping that person, not focusing on themselves so much self transcendence, helping them get down to the community and help others and get out of their own head. The way I view neuroticism is a form of narcissism. I call a vulnerable narcissism, you know? And so actually self-transcendence is a really great way of helping people who are kind of stuck in a deficiency, motivation mindset. I'm the best way for them is not to just keep ruminating on, on O what was it? 0 (26m 10s): Me? What is me? What was me? Woe is me. Woe is me, but say, Oh, let me give something to someone. You know what me have gratitude, you know, for whatever I have, I'm alive. Well, that's good, but let's start there. You know, I, you know, like that was a beautiful sunset, Oh, this is a beautiful connection I have with this person. I've, I've always been really fascinated with like researchers who go like, there was a, there was a research. So we went to the slums of Calcutta in India, people who are living in extreme poverty on the street and they, and they found it, the life satisfaction ratings of those people were higher than the average American 1 (26m 45s): You don't, 0 (26m 45s): We have to reach, you know, you don't have to wait to your life is all perfect or some level before you can cultivate a meaning and connection in your life. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. 1 (26m 56s): Yeah. You can find happiness at any point. So when you get into those ruminating negative, like self-talk patterns, is it kind of like, and I guess it goes to the importance of reframing and trying to like find gratitude. And we look at that sunset or whatever, but if you keep ruminating, is it creating like divots in your brain? Almost like, like M like a neuro habit, if you will. So that it's a harder to break. So you're almost like reinforcing that negative self-talk or making that depression, like even deeper and harder. And every time you choose or force yourself to do something different, or think something different than you typically would, you're starting to create a different neuro pathway and like helping to break that cycle. 1 (27m 41s): Okay. 0 (27m 41s): Well, yes, I I've written about this cause you know, the, the, the two wolves, parable, of course, right? The, the, I think the parallel goes something like someone is asking the, what the elder, like, I feel like I'm, there's a war within myself. There's like this good Wolf in this, a bad Wolf. And it says, what do I do? You know, how do I overcome this war? And they said, well, you know, it's the one you feed, you know, that matters. What Wolf do you feed? Now? I totally messed up that parable. Like the, you know, so everyone Googled it, the parable, because I, because I didn't like fully, I'm sure there's, I didn't say it. Right. But you understand that, you understand the general idea, you get the point. 0 (28m 22s): And I, and there is a good analogy there, the way the brain works, neurons, that fire together wire together is the, is the EB, the famous a neurologist abs a description of the brain. And I are, there is something to the more that we feed within ourselves. It does strengthen those connections and those pathways in the brain, there is definitely something to that. That's why I find personally, you know, I need, there are some doors I can't even open a little bit. I just need, they just need to be completely shot. Like if I keep chocolate around in my cabinet, then I'm going to fucking to get the chocolate. Like, you know, like don't even, you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's a no self control when it comes to chocolate. 0 (29m 5s): And the other things like that, you know, I just don't even have it, you know? So are there is, there is a lot to that. 1 (29m 14s): Absolutely. So I think another thing that you mentioned is, so the difference between D love, I have a abbreviated and beelove umm, so for our listeners, can you talk about the difference between D love and beelove and the significance of it? 0 (29m 33s): This is great. Yeah. It's funny because you just, you don't even hear the word, like the love much in In like how times do you turn on CNN and hear the word of love? 1 (29m 44s): Because that's the whole, if it bleeds, it leads nonsense. It's like you guys have the power, the people have the power, just turn it off, turn it off until you start seeing them shift what they're talking about. 0 (29m 55s): Yeah. It's just, and I didn't mean to, sorry, I didn't mean to just single out CNN, you know, any, any of the States, should you turn them all? And it's like, you just the point here is that it's so it's a refreshing question really, because I think this is what we need to be talking about more in our society. 'cause everyone is so be love motivated. So be love is sorry. Everyone is so D love motivated. Don't get a D D I mess that up, but everyone is so D well motivated. And what I mean by that is like, everyone's like motivated by the, the, the whole they have and their soul, right? 0 (30m 37s): It's like, it's like, you know, a well of me, I need to belong. I need to matter. You know, every, everyone is obsessed with mattering right now. Right. And look, fair enough. If you've, you know, you come from your whole life, you haven't felt like you've been included and don't feel like you matter and society. And I don't want to denigrate that whatsoever, but that's still the motivation that is coming from. And, and I can distinguish that from be love as Maslow did what being love B or B stands for being and what, and, and, and I really liked that phrase because there's two ways that, that, that th that makes that I really love that one. It means you're being love. 0 (31m 18s): You shine, light, everywhere you go, you bring people joy, you know, you, it's part of your being, it's not part of your doing, you know, what you see, you see a lot of people who do love, you know, so that they can get more money, you know, so that I saw a tweet the other day says something that I, that really pissed me off. I retweeted. I was like, ah, I don't like this. It says something like, be kind, because it will increase your competition or it'll help you dominate or be more competitive. I'm like, just be a parent. You know what I'm sayin? Like, yeah. It's like, ah, I'm not really, that really upsets me. 0 (31m 60s): So a and then another way that I think being a lot of really works is not only are you a being love, but also you have a love for the being have others. And what that means is that you love, so you can love so many of you, you don't even like, but you admire and, and appreciate their own sacredness of who they are. I don't think people are really treating each other as a sacred, or do you think people treating others as a sacred right now? 1 (32m 28s): And I think a lot of it is because we feel like if someone does something bad, right. And it doesn't matter how bad it is. If you talk to like the spiritual gurus of the world, maybe you should be able to find like, love and compassion for that person. And I don't see it anywhere, especially on social media. 0 (32m 45s): Yeah. Especially in social media. In and I, and that's a interesting bubble because people start to generalize and think that there are a group of 12 Twitter people they talk to regularly every day is somehow a representative sample of the world and seeing, get really, really stuck it in that way of thinking. And that's what all of these conspiracy theories come from. And I am seeing conspiracy theory is coming from every direction right now. And it's like, it's, it's, it's fat. It's a fascinating phenomenon for a social psychologist or a social scientist. 1 (33m 18s): Oh, I bet. Yeah. And if they just, if everyone just reframed the law, I mean, I think we have all been guilty. Like I've certainly spent a good amount of my time in like the D love category. And I've, I feel like I've been in a beelove category for a while and definitely being like a new mom helps kind of like stay there. But so we do, you know, what a Biocybernaut is, have you heard of Biocybernaut or heard of that word in my entire life? Okay. So it's ran by Dr. Heart and he essentially does like alpha brainwave training, feta training and Delta training. And she does a bunch of different things. 1 (33m 58s): And I did the alpha one course. And it's basically to try to get you into like a flow state and you get it by neurofeedback. So like you hook your brain up to all these wires, and then you hear your feedback come through these speakers. And then you can kinda see a numerical score as to like, if you have a coherence happening and all that, all that good stuff. One of the cool ways to get there was by doing like different kinds of forgiveness exercises and like meditations. And he challenged me to like, look at some of the more broken relationships that I've had a baby, like people that have been like very abusive organ negligent throughout my life. And I'm like, there's no way I'm gonna ever love this person. 1 (34m 39s): I would give it a whole host of reasons why, you know, they did this, or I don't know them anymore. Cause they've been removed from my live. And he's like, you don't need that. You don't even need to talk to the person to forgive someone. You don't need to talk to the person to have love for someone. And he would have you sit there and, and all sorts of different ways go through these forgiveness exercises by the end of the day, or like a lighter. And you're like, Holy cow, like I actually have loved for this person that caused me an immense amount of pain. And there's a variety of a variety of ways to do it, which is one of the easy ones is to take this horrible person and take them back in time until maybe they're like a five-year-old. Right. And then you look at the five-year-old version of this awful person. 1 (35m 21s): Let me, maybe it's a parent and, you know, picture them as a little kid. How do you not have love and compassion for that person that maybe they also had a really shitty upbringing and abusive parents and they just wanted to be loved and then round and round we go. So once you break, like into that, you know what I mean? Like you're stopping that chain from perpetuating for you to your child because now you have loved for this person and say, instead of this hatred or animosity and saying not having that forgiveness, I guess, so it can be done. It could be done to like the most horrendous people. And I promise you it's like so much better on the other side. 0 (36m 1s): Yeah. That's, that's, that's a really high, a level of spiritual understanding. If you can get there a spiritual form of love, I will say that if obviously if you're abused, like have love to get the fuck out of there. 1 (36m 13s): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that doesn't mean that you have to stay from a far yes, yes, yes, yes. And that's the thing too, is some people confuse it. They're like, well, if I love this person, if I forgive this person, do I have to bring them back into my life? And the answer's absolutely not. You can love someone and forgive them and still keep them at a distance and have your healthy boundaries. 0 (36m 33s): Exactly what I wanted to just clarify that. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 1 (36m 36s): Yeah. So I guess, do you wanna kind of describe like, what is transcendence and cause you mentioned like a cosmic consciousness and some people were like, well, what is the cosmic consciousness or what is it to Transcend and self actualization? Like these are all big words for some people. Right? So, so many. So what are all of those big fancy words? They're a bit woo. 0 (37m 5s): No, but I've, I've made the case that there can, there can be wisdom in the womb. I mean the operative word there is Ken, because there are a lot of things I'm like, what the heck is that person talking about? But, but you know, I think that on a scientific foundation we can place the more transcendent aspects of our being. And, and, and what I mean by that, it is a, is it a healthy form of transcendence where we don't think that we're some people call it the I'm in the light and, and you're not affect, that's not what I'm talking about. That's not what I'm doing. You know, you don't, you don't reach a million. And so that you can, you know, work down and others, you know, from above and be like, Oh, I'm so superior that cause that's, that's called narcissism, but I'm not true or not enlightenment. 0 (37m 52s): But I think that there's a healthy form of enlightenment where you feel connected to all of humanity. You know, you, you can really feel a common, a common humanity and, and you feel a sense of wholeness integration within yourself that emanates outward into the world so that who you are, and what you have doing is synergistically at the same time. Good for society. I think that at the it's called synergy, it's a term that Maslow, co-opted from the anthropologist Ruth Benedict. But the thing about this higher level of transcendence is that a lot of false dichotomies fall away. 0 (38m 35s): A lot of these w we have we're, we're, we're not at that level of consciousness in our society right now. We, we have so many dichotomies, your, you know, your either a good or evil, you know, you're either selfish or you're a giver, you know, you're either male, female, you know, like you can't kind of combine different aspects and In in the sense of being, I mean, that's a whole other discussion. <inaudible>, that's a whole other discussion, but I'm not talking about sex, biological sex, or a play about J you know, just in terms of like characteristics, you know, you know, like, or your, either a man and you're just dominant alpha or your a female, and you're this way. 0 (39m 20s): But I'm saying these, both of those I'm saying are, I don't like either of those things, right. I liked the fact that you, that we can integrate, we can become, we can come to a higher level of integration. And, and, and that's, you know, that's wisdom. I, I was on Sam Harris's podcast and I talked to him, he asked me what wisdom was. And I, and I, I think that's what wisdom is. You know, thinking is really thinking about that is, is our ability to be able to see these polarities of human nature and the, the, the perfections and, and accept the imperfections of, of humans, you know, and, and our, except our own imperfections. Mmm. But still have a love for a humanity, you know, to me, its it's the, it's the broken, not the broken, but the, the cynic who is, who is, who's not self-actualizing, you know, I, I think that once you, once you fall and two complete a cynicism about humanity, you've really fallen into the deprivation mode of, of human existence. 1 (40m 23s): So do you believe, so, do you, I guess I would assume. Yes. But do you believe in kind of like a collective consciousness and like a global consciousness, I guess we could start there 0 (40m 38s): In like a young, a young sort of Carl Young sort of sense, collective unconscious. 1 (40m 44s): This is like, I'm trying to think of how to word this. I don't sound like a crazy person, but as one person, as a one person like elevates and evolves and maybe Transcend, and then it kind of starts to bring other people. And then the more people that reach this level of self actualization, like the better society gets the better like the planet gets like, have you seen those meditations where they'll get a bunch of monks and they all pray for like one country or one like disaster that happens. And then you see a shift. Like, I, I wish I had this study is in front of you. This is like a real science it's actually happened. So if you actually start seeing more people do this, this work, this internal work, then you can actually start seeing the changes as a whole like globally. 1 (41m 33s): I do, I do 0 (41m 34s): Believe in that kind of contagion. And I think that it certainly operates in the opposite way as well, which you really are seeing in this country right now, this deprivation, motivation, contagion, I'll call it and never quite put that, those three words together in a sentence before. But so you certainly see the opposite. I do think that there are a transcendent moments of contagion, which you see a dance, you know, a sports event, you know, you see concede at a concert, you know, when you have everyone together and we're all on board with the same thing, we hear the beautiful, such a big fan of a yo-yo ma the cellist for instance, and the, and or Jacqueline Dupre, the cellist. 0 (42m 16s): And you know, for everyone in a concert hall hearing yo-yo ma play a Bach concerto or, or, or the Algarve Garcon shadow is more likely for an orchestra, a, an OIC orchestra. It's so Transcend and have you heard the old guard concerto? Oh, it's, it's just, I brings me to tears every time I hear it. I I'd always just send it to you. 1 (42m 38s): His please do. Eric probably does. He is very into classical. 0 (42m 42s): Oh, he's going to love this if he hasn't heard of it already. But the interesting thing is that you bring everyone together, listening to that music suddenly it doesn't matter what your, who you voted for during the last election. Now it's only, you know, after the song plays and then you start talking to people and they're like, Oh, you've overdrawn. Okay. You, you shouldn't be that. You shouldn't be that this, this concert that then it activates all of these things. But there is what I'm really, really passionate about is, is bringing out Transcend and experiences in humanity that can, can, can help us really get in touch with our common humanity. 0 (43m 22s): There's a lot of all like experiences like that as well. You know, everyone's sitting together watching a show, the stars and you know, the middle of the desert in Australia, for instance, if we could somehow bring everyone together in the world to do that together and, and, and just feel like something higher. Now, a lot of religious people try to say they get, you know, that, that they're getting in touch with the God in, in terms of the, a, a higher being. But I think that there is a spiritual form of transcendence that can for rest on a scientific foundation that doesn't have to be tied to belief, but can instead be tied to experience and, and no matter what God you pray to, or even if you're an atheist God, or God forbid, you know, you're an atheist, we can all rally around these, these common transcendent experiences. 1 (44m 12s): I when everything started going crazy at the beginning of 2020, I couldn't keep my eyes off of what was happening. I was following these accounts that were posting minute by minute, like, like riots, protests, everything, right? Like COVID numbers, like just couldn't keep my eyes off of it. And I was having like such negative reactions to it, like physically like, like anxiety through the roof. And I was like, I don't like what, this is who this is turning me into. So I'm normally like a pretty positive person, like a pretty hopeful person, very nice, like normally a very nice person. And this was making me like the opposite of all of those things. So I had to kind of force myself to unfollow certain accounts or mute certain accounts and then start following more positive accounts. 1 (44m 60s): And part of me for that reason, because your account is so positive and it's like, no matter what's happening, like you can go to your Twitter account and you're finding a way to try to bring people together. And I think that's so beautiful because right now, all you see on both sides is people saying, this is why we're different. And you're like, no, no, no, this is why we're the same. This is why we should all come together and love one another. And I'm glad that you're hopeful and that I'm hopeful and that hopefully we can start coming together instead of pointing out differences because something's got to get, 0 (45m 35s): Well, something does have to give a big time. We're, we're, we're all really at this de depre deprivation motivation. And, and we're all competing in referred to as the victim hood Olympics, you know, and it's, it's, it's causing us to not see how someone else's suffering, who is in our out-group might actually, maybe we were having the same experiences. And again, access is analogous to the religious thing that I was saying, you know, religious experiences versus beliefs. You know, I would, I would much prefer a world where people, you know, who has been discriminated, that we, we all rallied around some of our experiences of like what we've all been discriminated against. 0 (46m 21s): And let's get in touch with, with that feeling and, and have compassion and empathy for others. Who've had it, even if they're in our outgroup, you know, it's almost, it's like, Toboo these days it's taboo for, you're not allowed to care about someone in your outgroup. Do you know what I mean? It's like within your ingroup, it's taboo. Like if you're in your in group and like, let's say you're a Democrat in a Trump supporter, trips and falls, you're supposed to laugh at that person and tweet, Oh, what can this person tweeted? Or, or, and it definitely works the other way as well. If a Trump supporter sees, I mean, you see all those Ben Shapiro has all the people with their mom. They're mocking Democrats all day long, you know, but would it be, would it, would it be what it, is it a against the law? 0 (47m 7s): Is there anything in the law book saying that, that, that bankers should appear? Can't just once just be like, Oh, that was a really cool thing that Democrat did a much or, or, Oh, that Democrats, you know, like having a lot of suffering right now and let's all just like rally around and hope they get better. I don't know. Like, what would it be like such a bad thing 1 (47m 25s): Being like homeless though, like ideologically homeless. So I like, I've made some tweets that people forced me into the conservative bucket. And then I've said things that people in the conservative side, or like, Oh my gosh, you're such a lib. And I was like, I don't belong anywhere. Like I'm actually registered independent. And just because of like something, I said, you permanently put me over here. And then when I was criticizing, what happened at the Capitol, everyone that followed me that is like super right. Was like, what do you mean that violence is wrong? I'm like, what do you mean that it's not like this shouldn't be controversial? Like, I should be able to say, I didn't like the violence that happened earlier in 2020. 1 (48m 6s): And I don't like the violence that's happening now. I don't care. Who's committing it. Like, I just think that there is a very, very, very rare time and place where that's your only option, right. I'm not gonna, you know, use that idea in a, in a vacuum and say, it's always wrong. Because again, there's going to be very, very, very, very rare moments where that's your only option that I have not yet to see a moment that it would, that was the only option. So I just think everyone's making the wrong decision there. And I got a lot of flack because I wasn't sticking to what that group was saying, which was like, this is our revolution. I was like, they broke in and we're taking selfies. And like, people died. Like that's not a revolution. You guys are idiots. 0 (48m 48s): I think one of the, one of the Bennett, I feel, I feel that, I feel that you, first of all, I feel you, like, I totally hear what you're saying. And I think one of the benefits of being a special ed kid, I don't care. Like, I, I almost like, like I was born being an outsider, you know, and why stopped now? You know, like I just going to say, what I think is an issue to issue. I'm trying, I try to keep my labeling to a minimum. It's very, there's a lot of, there's a lot of pressure there, for instance, right now, a there's a lot of pressure if you're in the intellectual circle, like I am to be anti-war right. 0 (49m 32s): And there's a lot of pressure, like, like social pressure to make fun of and mock anyone that we could put the label woke on. Right. And, you know, I'm like, well, okay, can I just, am I allowed to just criticize issue the issue? Can I take like individual to individual and be like, okay, you know, I don't agree with that, what that person said, and here's my critique. I just don't want to be forced to put every, anyone <inaudible> under a single umbrella, you know, put, put a whole group of people. Who's a, a heterogeneous J genius group of people, not a homogenous group, but a heterogeneous group under a single umbrella, because there are lots of people of different opinions and thoughts within labels. 0 (50m 15s): And also as a kid growing up with a label, I know how, how much of that fucked me up being, being labeled. And so I have an aversion to labels. I have an aversion being put in buckets. And so I appreciate you. I appreciate what you're, you know, what you're doing. Cause I think that's brave. That's very brave of you to, you know, get, you know, to not, we're not, I don't know the word cave is the right word, but like, like someone in your situation, one could say, well, okay, well you have to just eventually just choose. What's good best for your brand. But I've been, I personally been resistant about having a brand, you know, like if anything, I want to be, I want my brand to be, know that I don't have a brand and don't make sense, but maybe that doesn't make sense to you in a way, but, but you, I think it takes bravery for you to get flack from these five for that and be like, okay, well this is what I I'm gonna be nuanced. 0 (51m 14s): And if you don't comprehend nuance, that's not my problem. 1 (51m 20s): Yeah. I think I'm similar in the way that I've been, like, obviously I've been labeled and that people have had their prejudice because of like my career and everything. So I think that makes me a little bit more thick skinned and like able to say what I want without like being scared of how it's going to feel when people yell at me or call me names just because I, like, I call you names all the time, all the time. So it's almost like I've like calloused a little bit. And I would say a good way to where I don't let other like external factors negatively affect like how I feel about myself or self worth, which has taken a very long time. Cause it's certainly not easy, but it goes back to like ideologies and people putting you in a bucket. 1 (52m 3s): And if you like stray at all, then all of a sudden like, they're like they have their rock ready and they're just going to come for you. And it's like, not everyone who does this one thing feel like they're, we're not all the same way. Like not everyone that was in the adult industry is one way, not everyone that voted for Trump is one way. And not everyone that voted for Biden is one way, like, there's, it's so complex. So unless you have like, I don't know, like an individual experience with someone you can't judge them. Do you know what I mean? They can't judge them off of the group that you're, you are a society is like forcing them into. Okay, 0 (52m 37s): Well, yeah. I love what you're saying. And, and, and I'm just like, I think the key there is judgment is judging, you know, like what if we just didn't judge people like w w w is that a radical idea? 1 (52m 50s): Radical? That's the craziest thing that's been said on my, all of my podcasts. 0 (52m 54s): I don't the problem. Cause the problem with like, I don't judge, like I have friends they've said, you know, our friends or into the freakiest things. Right. And I'm just like, and they, you know, they'll admit it. Cause I want people to feel comfortable with me. That's something that really matters to me as a coach, you know, as a psychologist and as with my friends and you know, they'll say the freakiest things because they know that they can, that they're not going to get any judgment out of me and be like, Oh, that's so cool. Like, you know, not my thing, but you know, like, okay. And what if we just like, just saw people at a treat people sacred. I want to get back to this idea of what that means to treat, because I think Maslow was onto something when he talked about, about the sacredness of each existence, you know, it really is a sacred thing to exist. 0 (53m 37s): It's such a rare event when you think about all the different ways in which one couldn't conceive. I just, for instance, I just got a text from a friend who's who just found out that his wife had a miscarriage and they're really, you know, a really an a in a, in a, in a, not a good place right now about that. And all the ways that that, that to, to exist is a miracle in it. And, and, and to be able for someone to, you know, to honor that, that, that given all the givens of existence, which there are givens of existence, which, which, which, which, which caused us to have suffering, you know, a, the first person say that the Buddha, the Buddha said to be human is to suffer. 0 (54m 21s): And just recognizing that and, and, and realizing that someone is living, what could a person with fascination, not judgement, I guess that's what I'm saying. You know, I look at people with just utter fascination. I'm an, all of us of how people choose to live their lives. You know, you know, even if someone's like horrible human, it's a, it's a, you know, like it's, it's, it's, I'm curious. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is the way that that person has chosen to spend their very brief and improbable existence. You know, like 1 (54m 54s): We have what, a way to look at it though. I totally agree that if we were talking about branding, that is definitely one of the, like, if you were to say like purposes of the podcast and like the new trajectory I'm on is just like a curiosity. It's not to have assumptions about someone or any like fields of work it's to like, have conversations with anybody and everyone that I find interesting. And just ask questions, because that's the only way you're to learn. And it's funny because some of the more like controversial guests I've had on them, like if you just listen, like they're actually pretty nice person, like a pretty decent person. We just like take a snapshot of someone or like maybe one tweet that they said, and we summarize their entire being as that, like, that's just inaccurate. 1 (55m 39s): You just have to have these more long form of conversations. Otherwise you're just never going to go anywhere. 0 (55m 45s): I think that we're similar in a lot of ways, actually. Now I'm realizing this some ways. We're definitely not, you know what I'm saying? There's some ways with some way, there's a lot of ways, and this is our essence of being, because I dunno if this, if you resonate with this, but if someone tells me like, Oh, you, and can't talk to that person that makes me want to talk with that person more. I don't know if you're the same way. So I've always been that way, like in high school, like, I would be like a friend, the bad boy, you know, a friend, or there's the people like, Oh, you can't that person's bad news. And I be like, Oh, I want to just go right toward it, you know, and understand it. And so, anyway, I dunno if this was, I feel like we, we both have whatever that bone is 1 (56m 25s): A 100%. Yeah. And I think partially because like, I've been in that category, like I've had people be like, don't talk to her and stay away from her or whatever. So I think I resonate with that. And even beforehand, like, even in high school, like I was always friends with like the punk rock kids, or like the little outliers. And I'm like, this is my family. And that's what I'm going to be. Everyone says like, don't go there and that's where I'm going to go. And yeah, that's, it's deeply embedded for sure. Speaking about personalities. I definitely want to talk about this test before I take like all of your afternoon, I did take it. And I was like, Oh, I was so nervous. Cause I was like, what if, what if I'm a bad Jetta? Hi no judgment, no judgment. 1 (57m 9s): So I have, it's the light triad facets. And it said it's lower on average by 11.2%. And that's a, this one is the faith in him. 0 (57m 23s): Here's the big question is where were you a, were you, where were you at that point? But what did Yoda appear though? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, the picture of Yoda appeared. So that's what matters. That's what matters. Okay. So we can still be friends you're you're on the light side of the force, but you know, you're not no Saint over there now. 1 (57m 51s): Okay. So I scored lower than average for faith in humanity, faith in humanity by 11%, which actually kind of surprised me a little bit. And then with humanism, so valuing the dignity of worth of each human being, my score was greater by an average of 7.3, 5%. Cool. The Kantianism so treating people as ends in themselves, not means to an end. My score was greater by 25.1%. Yeah. That one I thought was cool because I have like, I have a lot of relationships around me that are the opposite. And I'm like, that just seems so dull that way. Like w you know what I mean? 0 (58m 33s): And that's be love that's, you're a B loving person. We can't say that you will be loving. That's the, that's the fastest, most link to be low. 1 (58m 40s): I'm telling the truth. And then this one wasn't surprising at all. So narcissism, I scored higher by, I don't have the percent, but the average was like slightly over 40. And mine was like slightly over 60, but I feel like that's anyone that is like a, like a public figure slash like performer. Yeah. You have to be a little bit 0 (59m 2s): Definitely. And there are certain facets of narcissism that aren't, they're not like bad. Like there's like, like exhibitionism. I don't know. I assume it's one point in your life. You might've scored higher than average or an exhibition. It's a lot of, it's not fair to say, but, but, but I mean, that's a facet of narcissism, you know, and it's neither good or bad. I mean, I score high in that facet. I I love looking myself in the mirror. I'm not gonna lie. I love it. You know, I, I have a skincare routine I'm 40, 41 years old. And a, and I know I got a baby face, but no, look, you know what? 0 (59m 43s): We can have a hilarity about some of this as well. You know, as like, you know, like the, in fact, the ones who like, make, pretend they're like this perfect beings with no one perfections, they tend to be the ones that don't have much of a sense of humor. I don't know if you've noticed that, you know, like, you know, it's like, they, they can't laugh with themselves. I can't laugh at, they can't like, they tend to be rigid about others being other black or white, you know, in terms of personality. But I know that she didn't read the other two facets of the dark triad. Like, are you a psychopath? 1 (1h 0m 14s): Oh, no, they're right here. So yeah, 0 (1h 0m 19s): I noticed you did. I noticed you did 1 (1h 0m 22s): Psychopathy. So callousness and the cynicism, my score was lower by 20%. Is that good or bad? But that's good. 0 (1h 0m 32s): I mean, there's no good or bad. I'm not judging it D you're not like a card carrying psychopath. If that's what you're asking, 1 (1h 0m 37s): That means I'm more have more than the average, if I'm 20% less. 0 (1h 0m 41s): Oh, you're a 20% less on psychopathy. Is that right? Is that, Oh, that's all that again. There's no good or bad really. But I think that doesn't mean that you're a, you're, you're less, you're less of a psychopath. Yeah. 1 (1h 0m 56s): Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, but I'm less of a psychopath than the average or average test taker. And then Machiavelli is Machiavellianism strategic exploitation and deceit. My score was actually greater by an average of 7.75%. 0 (1h 1m 14s): I wonder if you need that to, for your business, you know, to, for us to figure out a strategy for how you can put yourself into the world. 1 (1h 1m 24s): We definitely want to be when I was an adult, for sure. And I think that served me 100%. 0 (1h 1m 30s): Can you hold one second? I think my Apple headphones or here, this is my Apple headphones. I got my Apple headphones. It is, I'm so excited. Okay. All right. Let's move on. We're coming back. We're coming back on the back 1 (1h 1m 58s): An important thing. Okay. No, but yeah, I think, I think that was definitely necessary. I think that helped me from getting trampled on a lot while I was, while I was still shooting. And it's not a, it's not significantly higher, so that's good. It's not like, 0 (1h 2m 15s): It's not like what, it's not like 1 (1h 2m 17s): All the way up to like 80 percentile. 0 (1h 2m 21s): That's right. That's right. Are you, do you still shoot 1 (1h 2m 24s): The only for myself. So I only do like, like an only fans. I stopped working for companies. Like, I don't know, like four years ago. Ish, maybe three. 0 (1h 2m 34s): Yeah. Okay. And do you find that works better for you right now on your life? 1 (1h 2m 38s): A hundred percent. Like I, I think I don't really have any regrets with effort with anything. I think everything happens for a reason. So I am always grateful for every like lessen hardship and every blessing. Like it's all for a purpose. I would never go back. I would never do it again. I wouldn't take it back, but I would never go back in. It was, it needs a lot of work. The industry needs a lot of work, so it's definitely better. Okay. 0 (1h 3m 7s): I, I don't, I've had, I've had a porn star is, and porn director is on my podcast, the psychology podcast. And maybe it's maybe, Oh yeah, yeah. It's a topic I love covering. I'm a sex worker. I'm very interested in the psychology and, and how the psychological effects on people who are in there. Yes. And maybe we can have you on the Showtime show some time, because I'd like to, yeah. I'm so curious. I'm, I'm so curious about that industry. And, and to me, I think it takes so much courage to do that. Like, like I think of what it would take in my psychological structure for me to like, tweet out here's me naked. 0 (1h 3m 48s): I can't even, I can't do you know what I mean? Like Scott, Barry, Kaufman, I can't even imagine what that would be like require within myself to feel comfortable enough and have that courage to here's me having sex. Like, I think it takes a lot of courage. I don't think we really appreciate as much, you know, you know, it's always boggles my mind when people do like slut shaming, you know, it boggles my mind because, you know, I always want to say that person, well, do, do you, would you have enough courage to, to express your desires and that way so openly and honestly, like, I don't think so. You know, like it's, it's a, it's fascinating to me anyway. I didn't mean to go down that path. 1 (1h 4m 29s): It's awesome. And then your perspective, I think is very refreshing. So thank you for that. But I think when you see people that get very defensive or critical about that, it has just because of their own insecurities, around whatever subject that might be, whether it's a porn and sex work or really any walk of life, right? Like it has way more to do with that person and them not being able to visualize them doing it. So it must be wrong. Like I would never do that. So no one should ever do that rather than recognizing we're all individual 0 (1h 4m 58s): Watching it. They're probably watching it 1 (1h 5m 1s): If they're honest and admit it for sure. And like, you can't deny all that traffic that goes to all those sites, but I hope that yeah, exactly. I just, I think a lot of it too is like the mystery around it. So being able to like have conversations with like, people like yourself. So I think more would be open-minded about it. But when you have like to porn people talking, no one's going to listen. Cause they're going to think it's like a very jaded and one sided and like dishonest. 0 (1h 5m 28s): We met personally in your career. Have you met Stoia? 1 (1h 5m 32s): No, I've never met her. 0 (1h 5m 34s): Thank you. You guys would get along. She was on my podcast. I find her, her views about the good and bad of the industry. Really fascinating. And yeah, I just thought maybe that'd be someone I'd love to see you too. And conversation with each other. Oh, for sure. 1 (1h 5m 50s): I've watched a lot of hers. She's a pretty brave voice. Cause she was like one of the first like big name stars to come out against a certain things. So she has definitely done a lot of good, 0 (1h 6m 1s): Absolutely what we'll call I again. I didn't mean to derail the conversation, but I am, I'm actually very fascinated about the U and what you do. So maybe we can continue that conversation on another day. 1 (1h 6m 12s): No, I would definitely love to I and I remember when I think I followed you first, if I'm not mistaken, but when you follow me back, I was like really surprised. I was like, Oh my gosh, like he doesn't care. Like he doesn't care who I like who I am or like what I do, like in a negative way. Like you weren't like judgemental. Yes. Like I've had people that they'll be like, Oh, I really like, like your tweets and you seem cool, but I can't follow you because of like porn. I'm like that's so I get it. I get it. But it happens a lot. It's it's totally disappointing when it does. 0 (1h 6m 47s): Well, if I wanted a, if, if I cared about my integrity whatsoever, I shot that in the foot recently because I created a Tik TOK account of me dancing. 1 (1h 6m 58s): This is looking at those today before a call and I was dying because it made me think of how you got into university. And you were saying that you just went to like an opera tryout. And then you talked about applying for like the psych, a psych minor. And you were like running away on your tights or like, I just got such a good visual on it. That it was amazing. So keep making take docs because I enjoy them. 0 (1h 7m 22s): Oh, I'm like all all, and this is my Backstreet boys one. So I was going to say, if I cared about a shred of dignity, dignity, then I know it's almost, it's almost freeing to have it gone. And then the people who appreciate authenticity appreciate it, you know? And you can't please everyone, right? 1 (1h 7m 45s): No, you definitely can't. So one of the last points I wanted to bring up is you had an article that I saw you re tweeting today, which was on a spiritual narcissism, which I thought was really cool because I was actually just talking to Eric about it earlier on today. Cause we have some people like this and our circle that they do one mushroom trip and all of a sudden they have this ego about them and you can't talk to them or debate them or try to rationalize with certain things because they think that they've now reached this level of that. You simply have not. So at the border, see I'm here, I've arrived. So to some people, I feel like they think that's a, like a paradox to be spiritual. 1 (1h 8m 27s): Then also to have like this level of narcissism, because you would think that spiritual, spiritual elevation is like the removal of Vigo. But what I see happening sometimes, and especially with some Silicon Valley members, is that it actually creates like a super ego. So can you explain a little bit about that article and I guess like the inspiration behind it? 0 (1h 8m 51s): Well, the reason why you asked me why I got into, or why am I interested in that topic? You know, I think that I've long been, I won't have been interested in the topic of spiritual narcissism because it, it just feels, it felt to me like so many people in this, in the spiritual community were just so like thinking that they have evolved in some sort of ego-less way. And, and that didn't appear to what I, that's not what I saw the, I saw a lot of ego. I saw not only that, but it seemed like the, the more, a spiritual practice they put into it, the bigger their ego became. So it just almost seemed like a correlation. 0 (1h 9m 34s): And that was opposite of what is promised promised. And the, the hype didn't seem to live up to the, the actuality of the, of the matter. And I saw some studies on this and I wanted to put it all together into an article cause there or not, there are enough robust, high powered, psychological studies that are trying to give us a picture of the matter. And it seems that the spiritual demean is not exempt from, from this what's called a soft centrality principle. Anything that we start to view as part of our core, to our identity, we become attached to in, in some way. 0 (1h 10m 14s): And it starts to be threatened. It's becomes a part of the ego as well. So people who are trying to do spiritual practices may develop if they're not careful spiritual narcissism, because they're not becoming aware of those patterns that are, that are, that are happening. I think that meditation and a lot of mind-body practices are at their best when they allow us insight into our mind and our ability to, to see ourselves from the outside, even though we're still on the inside, but, you know, kind of not, non-judgmentally look at our patterns of thoughts and behaviors and become aware of just how driven lots of, of our things are by the ego. 0 (1h 11m 2s): I think that's a great benefit of a lot of mind-body practices, but when they instead become a way of getting likes, you know, you know, like bit like what, everyone, I met a kid today, it's like, Oh yeah, I got a thousand likes for that. That, that takes away from the, from what I think at its best, it could be. 1 (1h 11m 28s): Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good, I think it comes down to like what you said about like self identifying and then the calving, these things. And there's like that philosophical question of like, who are you? And if you strip away all of these things, like, are you still the same person and what I've found at least so far, and I'm still like kind of a dummy when it comes to, to this stuff that I'm still trying to learn, but it's just that you're simply the observer to all of these things that you're not this thing. And then that helps a lot when it comes to ego and like openness to like learning and admitting like when you don't know something and being able to grow. Okay. 0 (1h 12m 7s): That's exactly right. That observing mind, the I the being able to view your thoughts, like a carousel on a, on the, the airport, you know, when the, I haven't been to an airport in a while, but now I've almost forgot what it is, what it looks like, but you know, with the luggage going around your thoughts, like the luggage, but you don't pick it up and not go pick up the luggage this time. I want to, I'm going to like come around again, not my could pick it up and being able to yeah. Like create that, that, that space between the stimulus response and the response is really what it's all about, you know? But yeah. A lot of people just, they, they, they, they C a P a different promise of these practices like, Oh, it'll let me have better sex. 0 (1h 12m 55s): Oh, it'll help me be more successful. Oh, if I, it, it's almost like the kindness thing we talked about earlier, you know, don't develop your kindness muscles so that you can be more competitive and like, 1 (1h 13m 7s): Like having that means to an end kind of thing. 0 (1h 13m 10s): A lot of this, that's a theme of our hole of all of this we talk about today is our, our things a means to an end, are they, you know, what are the most transcendent values of Maslow called them? The B values, the values of being themselves, beauty, meaningfulness, justice, and fairness, a completeness, a wholeness, and all of these things, our ends and themselves, they are not things we need to do means to an end of the love. 1 (1h 13m 43s): Okay. Well, that's a beautiful place to end. I want to say, thank you so much for giving me so much of your time. This was amazing. Can you tell the listeners where they can follow you, how they can support you and any projects that you work with? 0 (1h 13m 55s): Okay. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation and I really I'm grateful for you having me inviting me to be on your show. You can find me at Scott Barry Kaufman dot com is my webpage, and I have everything on my webpage. You can find me on Instagram at Scott Barry Kaufman. I have yoga pictures of myself and I'm joking, or they're quotes. They're inspirational quotes, but I now have recently a tick-tock account. So follow me on Tik TOK at SB. Kaufman where I have, you know, self-development kind of quotes interspersed with a dancing, moves, 1 (1h 14m 31s): All great stuff. Well, thank you so much. Give this man a Follow check out his books and I'll talk to you soon. That's it for this week's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have the time, please rate and review, and you can always hit subscribe to stay up-to-date with our latest episodes. I hope to have you back.