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Feb. 24, 2021

#32 Phil Demers- Saving Smooshi

Chatting with Candice

Phil Demers

Episode Run Time: 01:32:01


Phil Demers is a former animal trainer turned activist. He has garnered international attention for his unique bond with a captive walrus named Smooshi. Phil’s story is featured in the 2020 documentary The Walrus and The Whistleblower

In this episode, I talk to Phil about his experience at Marineland, the future of animal captivity, and the Saving Smooshi campaign. 


[00:01:27] Phil as a Public Persona: Using Social Media and Facing Criticism 
 [00:08:40] From Animal Trainer to Whistleblower
 [00:15:29] Caring for Animals VS Using Animals for Profit 
 [00:20:48] Phil and Smooshi’s Imprinting Moment
 [00:22:03] Taking Time off from Marineland
 [00:27:33] How to Create Sustaining Change
 [00:33:10] Marineland’s Lawsuit and the Anti-SLAPP Legislation 
 [00:36:54] The Cost of Acquiring a Walrus
 [00:38:38] Society’s Collective Movement Against Animal Captivity  
 [00:49:32] Changing Canada’s Captivity Laws 
 [00:54:38] Why Marineland Won’t Hand Over Smooshi
 [00:59:07] Phil’s Advice to Aspiring Activists  
 [01:03:46] Looking Back at Phil’s Journey
 [01:09:10] Psilocybin Mushrooms as Legal Medication
 [01:21:56] Can Animals in Captivity Thrive?
 [01:26:34] Current Status of Phil’s Legal Battle with Marineland


In 2000, Phil started working at Marineland. He applied for a job after seeing a newspaper ad. At the time, he thought it was a good opportunity to work at such a popular establishment. As a newcomer, he noticed that the animal’s living conditions were not ideal but did not speak up about it for lack of knowledge. Over time, Phil was given more responsibility and had become an expert marine mammal trainer. 

As Phil rose through the ranks, he realized that the management was primarily concerned about profit rather than the animals’ well-being. He claimed that the unkempt facilities posed health hazards to the animals. Unfortunately, his complaints only fell on deaf ears. In 2012, he decided to leave Marineland. Since then, Phil’s stance on animal captivity has been clear: the whole practice of it needs to stop. It has been well recorded that captured animals have a lower quality of life. 

For the longest time, big corporations like Marineland have controlled the narrative. But with the help of social media, more activists are emboldened to speak up against injustice and abuse. Consumers have the power to change things. By purchasing or boycotting certain products and services, we are choosing which messages to support.

The COVID-19 pandemic has been an eye opener for a lot of people. Now that humans know what it’s like to feel locked up, they have more empathy for captive creatures. It’s only a matter of time before society’s collective consciousness totally rejects the practice of caging animals for profit and entertainment. 


Follow Phil Demers on Twitter and Instagram. Help support the Save Smooshi campaign through donations or merchandise.

Support the show (http://patreon.com/candicehorbacz)


0 (0s): Is it possible because I'm like very Anti Captivity I'm Anti I I was doing a little bit of research and it was really infuriating because most of the stuff that was coming up, it was like pro Marine parks, pros, you. And it was like the benefits of Captivity these animals live longer, healthier lives. And you're like, no, that's not true. Absolutely. No, that's not true like that. Like you said, they're not reading, they're not using their instincts. Right. They are not using, they're not hunting. They're not going to talk to him. 1 (33s): They were all drinking. They're all drunk. 0 (35s): Oh my gosh. So you're like, you know that it's not, that's not the case. Hi, everybody. You're listening to Chatting with Candice I'm your host. Candice Horbacz. Before we get started on this week's episode, if you want to support the podcast, you can go to Chatting with Candice dot com. From there, you can either sign up for our patron account where you get early access to episodes and shout outs. Or you can click that little link that says, buy me coffee. Both things helped me out a ton because I'm just getting started with podcasting this week. I'm really excited to have Phil Demers joining the podcast. Phil has been devoting a lot of his time to saving his Walrus Smooshi and if you haven't seen the documentary The Walrus and The Whistleblower I highly recommend it. 0 (1m 19s): I watched it on Amazon prime. So I hope that you enjoy this conversation and give Phil a Follow and let's get into it. 1 (1m 28s): They keep telling people, if you were saying, you've got a launch, a podcast for that, you have a lot of podcasts and my excuses, I need a fence equipment. 0 (1m 35s): I have you start small. That's kind of what I've been doing is like, you start with like small little purchases and then just like keep tweaking. I don't think it's ever done. 1 (1m 44s): Okay. Fair enough. That's a good point. I mean, I go live on Instagram and then I feel like if I've got twenty-five people, I feel like a rock star, so that I'm already off to a good start. 0 (1m 54s): Well, honestly, I think it's like the quality of your follower too, right? Like you're a follower, his like are really invested in your story and updates. And there are like, with, with you on that. And then with me, it's like a mix. Like I get some people that want more and then I get other people that are just like, if it's not like a sexy photo, they are like, I don't want anything to do with it. So 1 (2m 15s): Yeah, I did. I did an interesting, because I'm always got music in the background, but my music has sort of dated if you will. So I was sort of interested to see what the demographic of the people that are, that are interacting with me, live on it and sure as shit, I was shocked that it was like 30 plus year olds to, into like 45 year olds. And they all knew they were awesome, like raw a punk music and I'm on my giant, the floor and like, okay. So, whereas I just immediately assumed it, the kids coming in with a no, and then to poke me whenever none of these are like intelligible intelligence people and I'm having like some pretty amazing interactions with them and it goes pretty deep to, so I'm blessed with the demographic and the people that follow in support me are like fucking awesome. 1 (2m 59s): But I can't say anything other than that, you know, like, I, I, I rarely, I I'm, I'm rarely tested by the, the Dick head side of things, you know, like, 0 (3m 7s): Okay, do you get that? Do you get people that just troll you? 1 (3m 11s): Oh shit. Yeah, I do. But it more than not it's vegans, if you could imagine, or at least initially it was just people, there is just an element of kill the messenger that just comes with any message. It doesn't matter. It's just by virtue of being a messenger. So they will always be like, what percentage of people that just find you to be, I don't know what, I don't know if it's a threat or whatever, or if they're just really bored. I also think that Society is collectively are suffering from a, a level of, of fundamental mental illness. I think we all have a base level of mental illness that our gut that's gone up as a collective whole. So, you know, the, the, the initial reaction to it, anybody being introduced to other B at a new idea of new person sometimes is threatening. 1 (3m 53s): So we were all sort of no one's immune. Right? 0 (3m 56s): Well, I thought that was really interesting. How so I watched your documentary and I'm like, one of those people I like, I feel like it, it hurts my heart when I see things like that, like, I'm probably cried five different times and I'm like, Oh my gosh. Like, I can't believe that there's not more happening. But you had mentioned that you had people coming after you for two things. One was like the steak scene and then two, it was the beta fish. And you're like, if you watched this documentary and that's what you took away, then you kinda missed the point. And I couldn't agree more. It's like, you, you're almost expected to be like perfect and not human. Right. And yeah, 1 (4m 36s): I think that's a, that bothers me the most. Is it just by virtue of having a name and a face attributed to being in the public Persona or public space? Now it's expected that I have this level of a bee. It ethics' or something that is determined by everyone else's is just not enough. It was like, well, I did something. That's why I'm here. Not because I'm not doing enough on that. I'm not, I'm not being observed now by virtue of not having done enough. I did something. And now it's not enough. What a strange thing too, to say that the, the path to Ascension in, in, in the third perspective has always, it never is never far enough. And you know, the, the, the big thing is that everyone should just be sort of doing a little bit. If everyone did a little bit, we can all just sort of elevate everything. And it seems that it's just more of a prevalence of attacking those who are trying, and then not, at least initially until people get to that crust. 1 (5m 21s): Right? 0 (5m 22s): Yeah. It's like, well, what have you done to save anyone besides yourself? 1 (5m 26s): Well, I love that line on what the hell have you done? At least I'm trying, 0 (5m 30s): At least you're trying. And I don't know. M did you ever watch chef's table when that, like, was it like having it Moment so there, I think it was season one. I hope that it was season one, but they introduced to this Buddhist butcher and that seems like an oxymoron to people. And they were like, well, how can you be a, a Buddhist butcher? Because you know, most of the Buddhists tend to be like vegan or vegetarian and his body didn't do well on that diet. Like his body needed me too, like to thrive essentially. Like he was having issues with energy in all sorts of things. So he took it upon himself to create like a really small farm where like all the animals were turned out and grass, grass fed, and he had access to the room. 0 (6m 17s): And then when it came to the butchering process, like it was a very intimate. So like they had one animal at a time. It wasn't like factory farming where you had like the long corral, full of cows that are stressed and like freaking out because they know what's about to happen. So it's one and they take a moment to kind of do like a prayer and like a gratitude moment. And like, thank you for the sacrifice you were making. We appreciate it. We going to use nose to tail. So nothing is going to go to waste and its a very quick painless deaths for the animal. So its like, it looks at, I guess like the issue coming from a vegan's perspective and it takes it like to more applicable way. Like people need to eat meat, right? Like most people eat me and this is an ethical way to do it. 0 (6m 60s): And this is the way that respects the animals. So to think, unless you are only eating soybeans, you can do no good in this world. There is like a way that that range is a very vast and I think that as well, 1 (7m 11s): It was a large argument that, that, that is soy farming is a, just a destructive and it's pesticide use and its cultivation in it's in, in its taking away from otherwise a natural habitats from Animals. I mean, look, there's hypocrisy in absolutely everything. It just becomes a level of which you're comfortable have a living with yourself within it. So a lot of people criticize me for my consumption of meat, but no one has yet to make the compelling enough argument, not argument case for me that my body's ever responded to anything like it does red meat and I don't want to be a spokesperson for it. But in my experience I've ex I've had a emotional regulation. 1 (7m 54s): I've had a, I mean just even physically, I mean, I'm not going to rip my shirt off, but if I were to, you would say hello, what? Because 'cause this time, years ago there wasn't the case. Right? My experience is just such that my body works well with red meat. So until that a case gets made, then I can find a way to either leave and move to sideways. I'll be happy with it, elevate in some capacity, be it, whatever it is that replaces it I'm in right now. I'm in 0 (8m 24s): Totally. I couldn't agree more. And it's, it's such an individual basis. Right? So some people they do really well on like a vegetarian or vegan die and other people like it's just not, it's not practical. So I think you can't, you can't just search for the flaws, right? Like you have to look at the bigger picture of what people are doing and you've been on this mission if you will, for quite awhile. Right? Like its been like 20 years, like this is your journey. 1 (8m 48s): Okay. I'm not sure you're at a 20 year journey Since then absolutely. I'm entering 20 to 21 years since my, my story of my employment at Marineland, which would be the start date in my journey for sure. 0 (8m 59s): Wow. Yeah. So I mean it's you need to look at the bigger picture, right? So How so you started as like a young man, right? And for me, like when I was little and I went to live in California and I was younger SeaWorld and I was like, this is the most magical place on earth. And I want to be a Trainer when I get older, I'm the back then we should pay extra. And Now like, after all of these documentaries and stuff come out and we're like, Holy shit, this is crazy. But you could pay extra. And after the show you could actually go and the tank with the shampoo. So I must have been like five or six or something. And my mom thought she was being the best mom and the world in paying for this extra thing. 0 (9m 42s): And I literally put her baby in a tank with shampoo. So now you see these documentaries have these, you know, these captive Animals that kind of a break, right? Because of their, their living situation. You're like, that's the most dangerous thing that you could have done. And they knew that going in, but there is like an, a, there was an allure back then because there wasn't a lot of voices coming out and there was a lot of footage. So you probably went in and you were like, this is such a cool experience. Not a lot of people get to be so close to these amazing animals. So how did you go from that? And then having like a shift in saying, wait, wait a second. And nothing is really making sense here, 1 (10m 23s): But it should be noted that I started my job at, in, in 2000, that would have been 22 years old. I'm from a small town, like a wetland, which is in the Niagara region, which even if you put the entirety of the region, it doesn't even compare to anything like California, in fact that all of our province does it. So I came from a very small place, but be it because it's Niagara falls and the summer, a lot of tourism like millions of people will, will descend down to the Nagra. So that's what made a, Marineland such a big success. So the opportunity to be working in this environment in a small town is kind of super unique, right? But it wasn't something I aspire to do. 1 (11m 6s): I just sort of a, you know, my education was in music and, and, and at the time it was called a multi-media production, which is, I forget about it. That's a dated term, but nonetheless, I could do some music production and what, so a Marineland sorta liked mom. And the only reason I applied was when I was, when I was trying to figure out what it is that I want it to do and make sense of it. You know, working in audio engineering in the big city and the big, the biggest city near us was Toronto. And that was an hour and a half straight to rent on a full, on a full-time basis. And, and living in Toronto, I just couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't find the opportunity. So suddenly I then was, there was this, this ad in the paper to, to work with Marine mammals and like, okay, I'm going to do this, but I had no ethical qualms at the time. 1 (11m 49s): And this was a celebrated industry. And in fact that I assumed going in that there were things that I would probably like or not, but I had no real expectations. Again, I, it wasn't like a big, long life, long dream for me. Although, you know, as a kid, I do remember going to a Marineland of course, in that positive memories. My first memory is a recollection of course, is showing up on my first day. There was a lot of people, it seemed to be competent professionals people. Okay. I'm in good hands. And as soon as you take a look at the, a, the environment and stuff in the animal's, you're like, ah, yeah, this is a, it's significantly more substandard than I would have expected, but because I'm 22 year old kid on day one of my job, I'm not gonna open my mouth. I don't know anything about these animals. 1 (12m 30s): I haven't had any degree, any relevant degree in biology or to the care of these animals, or if I have no experience, what the hell do I know? So, you know, you keep that, what the hell do you know, mindset going into anything new? And you know, my, my very first day I was on my hands and knees actually putting an Orca blood off of an arcade slower. If you can sort of wrap your mind around that is kind of a, a, I mean, if you look at it, it's kind of a powerful notion, an arcade Flor with Orca blood on it. But yeah, the only, only days before that, and Animal had passed an ORC had passed away and had formed the crops in, and then they dragged the carcass in the arcade because of that building is adjacent to where the, the, the op the, the warehouse area is where the, where sort of the animals that you don't see exist. 1 (13m 14s): But so all over the years, this is, as you can imagine, I'm I get a more responsibility. I get a greater relationship with the animals. I get a greater understanding of the language of training, and you just become more comfortable with it. And Marineland, for me, felt like a home because a, you know, it was young dynamic crew with people you're working with and you, no, you're a party. And on Thursday nights and your just having a good Time all the time, or at least we are trying to do. And even in my experience, it, as often as things were on the worst days, it was your friend's that you counted on it. It was their shoulders you've been done. And we all sort of had a perfect level of crazy. That was that, that you needed to do this job, but the closer you got to making relationships or the decisions for the animals, you found yourself fighting a management, and then you start to realize that there's a, a, you know, there's a bottom line and there's, there's a way. 1 (14m 1s): And there's, and there is the care for the animals. And if I'm going to be the voice for the animals, then I don't negotiate that, but that's not my position to take. So I couldn't, I could give a shit whether or not it makes sense to make money. If I think that the animals need a rest for one day out of the seven that they work. And also as I got closer and closer to the top, and it started to be evident that this was more a, a, an industry that Profit, and this is without even attributing. What happened to me in the Walrus. I mean, we haven't even gotten into the fact that I was only six years into being a trainer when I met a Walrus that would eventually believe that she, that I was her mom. So you can imagine the conflict and leaving that and being a voice for. 1 (14m 43s): So in my journey was just conflicting and, and, and longer than it should have been. I would've like to have left a lot earlier, you know, circumstances such that it wasn't easy for me to leave. I left that 34 years of age, and I'll tell you something at 42. Now, I still feel like a 22 year old kid. I forget about the fact that I'm in better shape than I've ever been unbeknownst to me working over there. He had compromised both the mental health and some other physical problems I had, but the things that you don't know, 'cause, you're in the environment, or you're suffering from the effects of that environment for, for a long time. So what I think of How some of the things that affected me environmentally there, and I, I attributed to what was going on too much of the health of the animal's, you know, you can, you can attribute a lot of their deaths to just straight up the environment. 1 (15m 26s): It's, it's the environment that, that kills them. 0 (15m 29s): Oh, that Imprinting seen, like, I like get emotional just thinking about it, like as a mom like that. Huh? Is it so hard? Heart-breaking that sorry that you would have, This like animal thing that you're, it's a mom, and then you see it getting mistreated like that, and then you have to leave and you can never see this the same Animal again. And it's like, well, what's the difference between someone that like Hertz in the fields us and recognize is that this is like a living loving creature that, that has social bonds to people that are like, this is a dollar sign. 0 (16m 10s): And like, we were like, where's the, where's the difference between that? Because you see that a lot at it, like a lot of these parks, whether its like a Marine park or as you, and then the people at the top or just so disconnected from what's actually happening. It's like, do they, do they ever participate in like the vet checks or the training or the play? Like, are they just so far removed from those daily activities that it's easier for them or is it, 1 (16m 35s): It was a complete disconnect. It's just a disconnect. When, when you, when your best interest as the bottom line, you have to answer it to somebody. You know, my answering was to the vets and ultimately eventually to management and management's decisions where we push, push, push it all the time. And it just wasn't that there was a complete disconnect. And whereas I was trying to represent the interests of the Animals and I thought that I was a valuable voice in that capacity. I thought that's why you wanted me. I thought you wanted me from my expertise in telling you what is in the interest of the best and why. And I say my expertise because Over time I became an expert. I knew those animals better than anyone. I say this not as a spiteful person who wants to, Hey, I was the best. And the note, because the veterinarian's will tell you will have told you, I mean, it's well documented. 1 (17m 16s): I was the best I had that relation for those Animals men that I loved them. I, I did feel myself, the luckiest person on the planet to be able to be so close to them. But that is a double-edged sword, right? That's why I tried very often tell people don't attack the people that are working on Marineland first off, they're trying to put food on their table. And you know, the, the, the struggle to survive is personal and greater than anyone that, that you and I can Can can judge anyone else for it. So we leave it as such an OE or the Gates But because first off, this should be noted. These are high-paying jobs. Okay. There's people are living in the lap luxury. It's a Won thing, but it's not, it's not. So the struggle is real over there to begin with it. And if you love animals, then getting out of the businesses even is just as difficult as it is getting it and getting is tough. 1 (18m 0s): I mean, there's, there's a, at least when I started, there are a lot of people that wanted that job. And we were reminded all the time that look, if you don't like it, there's the door. There's a thousand people waiting outside of those Gates waiting just to sign their name on a dotted line and kick your ass out. It was just like, wow. And you were reminded that on a daily basis by Marineland, you know, and the seat and the likes of see room, it's a very cold like environment. So when you're young, it's tough. I mean, you know, it's, ah, it's a fun place to work. And with the men that the world changed, it changed fast. And now what's happened is it's given power to not just the consumer in that. Cause we've always had the power to do with our dollars. The question becomes what, what is it that we're supporting? And these days the message is no longer merely a jingle on a, on a commercial or some bullshit science segment where a scientist comes over and showed you a bunch of footage of animals in the wild, and then pets an animal that Marineland with a trainer and, you know, attributed to some level of science and stuff. 1 (18m 52s): No, no. These days, you know, people like me, former employees, people that know and, and have had access to two information and provides like videos and, and footage and whatnot. But you know, we are now we are, in my example, I've become a sort of media empire on its own just by virtue of being able to use social media. And through my, through the various contacts I've made through all of this, we really have been empowered. So the corporations are out there and they, they, they always control the message. You know, the jingle was cute. The jumping of the whales, you were their, you were there as a child that you bought it as a child. This was a magical right. You want to do what I did. What's crazy about all of that is they sold. They sold to you this idea of these magical relationships that didn't exist. 1 (19m 33s): And yet I actually have it. I'm the one guy who has that weird, magical relationship that everyone wants with an animal. I got it. And I can assure you it's, it's a purse because it's a perspective Changing thing, but it's also a life altering. You mentioned being a mom and you immediately started to tear up at the prospect, have that feeling. I never felt anything in the likes of this. I had had cats and dogs out and I love it. Don't take anything away from, from what I'm saying here. But there is nothing like what I felt when I had printed on that Animal and to see her or the level of urgency in her wanting to be with me and what not. And knowing what it means for me to be with her. And Now attributing that to every other animal there that's been ripped away from their mom. Then we didn't know the extent and the power of it because we didn't have the experience here. It is. It's on display. 1 (20m 14s): It's there. So that changed me, man. I became a mom in a way, right? I'm not a dad. I don't have children. That's been my experience of what it's like having Won. So this is like a, its sort of a hostage. Like you can imagine where it is that I dig. You know, people say, man, you have to dig deep to, to endure this thing. It's like to be quite honest, it's been an easy like that mother who list a car off there after all of the traps child Won arm, those mom's are lifted. You know, I feel the same way. I carry the weight of the world on my shoulders. It's up to pursue this and it's the, in my life. 0 (20m 48s): Did you, so when that Imprinting happened, did you, or were you aware of like the exact moment? Like, did you feel anything? No. 1 (20m 57s): I felt something in that. This is weird. I took note of it because I've never seen anything like that. It was all sort of like an S the simultaneous in a weird thing. It was like this large breath. So he saw then also, but then you saw something in the eyes where she looked up at me in the, the look was different. Whereas before it was looking around, looking around panic and that was staring directly in my eyes and always wanting to reach her face up at me, always, it was not Change. I didn't know what it meant, but she was following me everywhere. But also bear in mind at the time there was chaos happening everywhere. This is this chaotic scene. So while I'm trying to tell someone like, Hey, look, she keeps following, you know, everyone's sort of a wrestling, another Walrus and its cast by the time that it all had settled, it was said and done. And I'm trying to tell people what had happened. 1 (21m 38s): Like, Hey, look, you know, we'd already, we decided to go for lunch. One of the procedure was, as I'm talking to people are like, Oh, that's weird. Yeah. I assumed it was said and done. You don't think anything of it back on, I'm hearing an incessant barking, incessant barking. Someone's calling for her mom. What the hell is that? I go out there. She sees me now. She wants to be with me every, every waking moment of every hour of every day. And its an obsession. Holy shit. What is it just happened? 0 (22m 3s): Wow. So I'm on a podcast that was listening to, It said that you took a little bit of a break and traveled a bit and came back was part of that because of the eco-system like you just needed to get out of that environment. 1 (22m 18s): Yeah. I started in 2000. I remember what our first whale died a about a week late or maybe even in the last I'd asked, Hey listen, I need to just go take a few days off. And, and they gave it to me. So I went to, I went away 10 days. That was a again, that was a guy that was in 2000. This was early 2003 rolls around. So it's not just one animal dying. It's a few. And now I don't really sleep at night. I'm just, just, and you know, I should, it should be noted. I'm already is sort of like a hyper anxious, Dew like a depression issues. All of a sudden, I mean, not everyone is on everyone. In retrospect, I would like to have known what a healthy meal could be. Like, I didn't know at the time, but here it was in my environment and working with, you know, in the compromised self that I was, I was already in these, these that some of the scenes affected me. 1 (23m 7s): I don't like seeing blood and stuff like that. So I had asked the management like, look, I've got an opportunity out a friend that lives in South Korea and he just, that dude come on over here, like just get over here and come, come spend at six months a year, whatever I can like jobs or you can find a job. I didn't have a university degree. So, you know, to, to work legally in South Korea, you would of had to have had that. I didn't have nothing. Then I had just bought a ticket But but it was with MarinelandIn and you know, they gave me, they gave me their support and then a blessing to leave. And I did, I left for just shy of the year when South Korea did some teachings, it did some traveling and in Japan and Thailand, all of the entire area on Won while I was in Thailand, my then girlfriend and I were considering actually staying. 1 (23m 50s): But it was because I had made the promise to Marineland that I would return. I said, you know, I said, I would, I'm not going to abandon, I'm going to go back. And you know, you wonder sometimes when those decisions in life, you know, But my decision to go back, obviously changed. But to be fair, six months later to the date that we left the Island a co-PI he got hit by a, by a tsunami that wiped it out. We would have wiped out exactly what we were planning on staying. So it was like kind of this weird fate situation. It was absolutely the best we'd be that we left. 0 (24m 19s): I love looking back at those moments where there is like that philosophical fork in the road. And you made like a very like a or B decision. And then like you said, the tsunami hit it. So it kind of validates that you did take the right path because I believe in like fate and destiny, I also believe in free. Well, I think that they can coexist, but I love those moments. Where is you're like, Holy shit. And at least I think I'm, I'm heading to the right trajectory. Okay. 1 (24m 44s): You think there's a level of free Movement within divine sort of fate. Yeah. Yeah. 0 (24m 49s): So the best way I've ever had it explained to me is like, I'm like life and like your realm of possibilities is like a bowling alley. And do you have your bowling lane? And ideally you wanna kind of stay in that lane and like a perfect life of you following your path would be like a strike, but there's an infinite number of ways that you can throw the ball and hit the pins. And then another analogy is like, if you go way off course, then you ended up in someone else's lane, but it still contained to that bowling alley. So I feel like that makes sense. Like there's, there's a lot of things you can do and can choose to do and paths that you can lead, but it's still contained 1 (25m 33s): It's as if you can expedite or maybe as long as you'd like, or make as easy as you like, or as difficult as you'd like to be your path, but your getting to a place in a sending regardless. 0 (25m 46s): Yes. And then for me, I've at least like with my, I look back at a certain, you know, fork's in the road or like hardships and I look at those as like the universe or God or whatever you want to call it, giving you like, or like, do you really wanna do this? Are you really making the right choice? And things get harder and harder and more and more difficult because I feel like you are, the whole purpose is to, to be happy, to feel love and to experience yourself in the fullest way possible. So I feel like all of those hardships happen is it's God or the universe trying to get you back on course. And it's in your sure. Are you sure? 1 (26m 25s): So you were saying in every which way that I fought every which decision to have two, to have to speak in the media every which way I tried to resist that path that seemed to scream to me, sorry, son, you're going down. You're going into a place that, that buckle up and I in every which way he was like, no, no, no, no, no. That's something else had happened. I'd be like, Oh, that can't happen. And then someone else had to be like, as if that was the thing that would happen, that I said that if it did, I would do something and then the, well, no, maybe I'm not ready yet. Boom. It's like, okay, I see it. I don't have a choice in the matter 0 (26m 60s): Be taken away 1 (27m 0s): From me. I always say that in the entirety of, of this journey, I haven't made a single choice, but I say that because every which way that I tried to sway from making a decision, I have those choices taken away. So I got sort of bottlenecked in to exactly where it is that I had no choice, but to go, but by virtue of resisting it, I probably made it more difficult. But either way, I'm still exactly what I was intent on being resistant. 0 (27m 25s): Yeah. It is that what you resist persists mentality. You know what I mean? So I think that too. So when we talk about these people and it's so easy, we, we do it in all facets. Like if we see someone being wrong and we were like, you are wrong and we were going to force you to do the right thing, then it's kind of like that power vs force. Like if you put on someone's hand or their natural response was to push back and they don't even think about it. So it's like how, instead of doing something and a forceful manner, which I see a lot with, Activists like, they get like the vegans you talk about, like they get very angry and they try to force their, well, it's never going to work that way. So how do you come from a place of power or a place that is like vibrates at a higher place, right? 0 (28m 11s): It's not so aggressive. It's not so angry. And it's so hard because it's your baby, right? Like, and of course you're going to get angry. I would be setting the world on fire if someone took my child from me. But how do you do this in a way that is going to create Sustaining change? Like how do we get these people that don't have empathy that are showing signs of, of, so do you know, like the dark, the dark triad, I think it's called, it's like three personality traits that indicate whether or not a person is like a psychopath I'm or like a little bit darker. So there's psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism so Machiavellianism is seeing people or things as a means to an end. 0 (28m 54s): And, you know, they're just there a way to get ahead or to make money and to serve a purpose. And if they don't do that and you don't really invest any time into that. So I see. And I don't, I've never met these people, but I see a lot of that in and all business, right? It's like, I don't have empathy for this person. Animal where thing. And it's just a means. So how do you get that personality trait to come to the light and to say like, you can make money and you can also give a shit like, those things don't need to be mutually exclusive. Like how do you have that influence? 1 (29m 31s): It may experience some old ideas, especially when it comes to the legacy businesses. Money-making things that the, the, you got the old guard power holding on to it. Sometimes they just have to die. And I know that this sounds crazy, but the people that are holding onto these ideas, they are, they just have to die. And in the S and with those old ideas, w with those deaths go with the deaths of the old ideas as well. So sometimes the tide is turning it at such a momentum way of a momentous way that your best job is to just be prepared. So when you talk about how it is that I can keep my mental sanity amidst, all of this, you're like, look, dude, I feel all of this. 1 (30m 11s): I have a fire every single day, there are a burst. I have bursts where I have to do so in every, which way that I attribute my physical, like what's become of my body. I used to be like, you know, not this, okay. It used to be not this, but I'm not like a workout guy. I think that it is that my mind has been in a state of constant fight or flight. And that my body is now after so many years of constantly being in a fighting state, I have Now readied myself to AE sort of strange Battle like way for endurance. Like I'm I made Now For, I'm oddly Now made for endurance where as, before this wasn't the case. I mean, I don't even know what to say of it, but it's because I've had to control that I'd have to have this level of control of restraint, which I also feel is a virtue in life because you know, w being reactive is always Ann and I was on the way I am the worst, For it? 1 (31m 3s): Like, there are holes in walls here. They exist. 0 (31m 6s): I've been pretty bad too in my past. So yeah, it's not the way to go. Everybody learned it. 1 (31m 12s): What do you learn this? Because you you've you, well, hopefully you learned the lessons of it or not improving your situation in it. I mean, it just doesn't. So I, I learned patience as a virtue as well, and I've learned a lot of lessons the hard way, but I have lawyers and I'm also surrounded with a very powerful people that keep me sane. You know, I, I do have a, if I want to be effective, I can't be the person Marineland has described me. And so in every which way that they've described me as this violence and this dangerous a maniacal person, my job was to not be that person. Because if I compromise myself and I do something stupid, Marineland, we'll hold on to it. 1 (31m 55s): And then the courts will have a reason to say, well, you know, Phil might be just a little bit crazy. Let's offer Marineland some level of credibility in their complaints to my job is to just be like, okay, Marineland has tried to do this. If I want to be most effective, you know, I need a lot of things to line up. They have, you know, its been eight years since Marineland sued me, but I needed things to line up. I need the support. I need the help. I needed this. I need that. But here we are. And I've just had that one goal in mind. If I can get that, if we can get that Walrus well, I can't compromise. I know it's crazy. We want to wrap up the doors down and go get her that doesn't help me. And it doesn't help her. I have to sit down here. This is the most difficult thing to do, but it's what the purpose of the Lawsuit was. 1 (32m 39s): It's make me crazy. You could even almost say that the Lawsuit was, if, you know, if most people were to fight as vigorously as I have it, it is intended to either make you crazy, make you broke or make you debt. You know, some lawyers leave the legal field because their clients die. Like litigation is a very stressful and dangerous thing. So I'm blessed in that. I've come this far with the support that I have, because it also gives me the opportunity to reveal the players and the darkness of this whole thing. Marineland student, we have a $1.5 million in 2013 for plotting to steal a Walrus. Well, here's the beauty of a thing about, about a Lawsuit it's on them. 1 (33m 19s): Its the onus is on them to provide evidence and to prove this, but they have had eight years to prepare. They have nothing. I mean every single thing that they've attributed to me as had been an absolute fiction story. But if I didn't come up with now in excess of $350,000 to afford eight years of jumping through hoops, to all the various legal motions that they continue to do and I would have been like everyone else just merely squashed silence. And that's it. It's just by virtue of them have the, of the punch, like the corporate, the corporate fist, if you will. But because I've had all the help and everything else, Marineland at the end of their rope, that there is nothing left. We have only two basic we set trial and they've had basic. They have like two of these, like a last second resort options for that because in every lawsuit, basically a, a corporation in In in slap suits, if you are, they just have you jumped through various Legal motions all the time. 1 (34m 7s): It was just constantly a complaint within the, the arguments of the Lawsuit. So its not about the merit of the lawsuits is arguing over words and what not on the way up, but there are very expensive process and it cost the next it's a 15 or $20,000 every time you do it. Well, Marina run out of options. Like the judge was basically like, okay, it's time to go to trial that no one is like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. And I can't break the news of where we're at yet because my lawyer has to have this Friday. It to respond with the materials and thereafter we're back in to another motion with the judge will make an determinants or excuse me, I believe we will win. And we'll we're in a lot of money and I'll try to get the Media on it because that's my job as keep Marineland lying and in the media, but we're preparing for trial. 1 (34m 47s): Then there is no greater, well first it should be noted in every which way that we've been going to trial. And Marineland doesn't want us to, I've been trying to make it easy for them. Let's just move the Walrus is to get her out of it. Right. This is a mover I've been trying to do this since day one. They don't want to do so we keep fighting. Well, now that at some point they have to take me to trial and before a judge or provide evidence of all of this crazy shit that I've done, I've done nothing. They have zero, they have nothing. So what happened? 0 (35m 11s): Okay. So how does that work though? So when you Sue someone for that much money with no evidence, how has that Legal how was it legal to permanently cripple someone with no evidence 1 (35m 23s): It used to not be. And then maybe like five years ago, the province of Ontario where we live passed, what's called anti SLAPP Legislation. And in fact I was, I was a, a, a, a, a witness to it and I spoke up to a community. And what that means is a MarinelandIn they were to Sue. So, so the SLAPP Lawsuit is an acronym, S L a P P for strategic Lawsuit Against public participation. So of course are people of influence. We use it to sort of keep people from talking about them in the public domain, in the hopes of not changing rules and laws and whatnot. Try to keep the Public from participating in them in a public debate about your practice, if you will, but take an Epstein. For instance, he's the type of guy who would have sued people, you know, to take like these, these are the types of people who have, who have either a reputations to, to, to preserve and hide and crushed the people that are otherwise try to create a dissenter or whatnot. 1 (36m 14s): So that was passed as a, as illegal, but they didn't retroactively allow for it to, to be practiced. So Unfortunately, I'm under the old law, the old rule of law. So I'm sitting here actually watching this law that was designed to protect us. And it's out of reach to me as a mechanism to yeah, dude, welcome to my life. Right. And I'd been doing this up for a long time and I'm not just passing legislation to protect animals. I'm also passing in and speaking on behalf of whistleblowers. So I'm, I'm being crushed while trying to, but I'm still here. I look, I'm talking interesting people, I'm having a nice time. So everything's good. We're all going to where we were. We were destined to be. 0 (36m 54s): Well, I think it is crazy is a part of your, the documentary you were like, I just want to fucking Walrus that's all I want. Like, I just want the Walrus and I tried, it was going to sound ridiculous. I tried Googling how much a Walrus cost, like how much does it cost for these Marine parks to get a Walrus and surprisingly like the numbers are really hard to find the closest thing I found. It was like one thread. It was suggesting like 8,000 pounds, which I guess is probably upwards of 10,000, U S M does. Well, did you, did you have any like insight into the cost of acquiring these Animals because 1 (37m 30s): I, I had some insight in that I saw it actually. I don't want to say what I saw. It just implicates people from countries that are just more dangerous than I care to implicate. I saw stuff. I couldn't, I can't tell you how much I saw it. Like in terms of the value of the transaction of what I for sure it was witness to it, but there was lots of it. But if you were to say something to the effect of $10,000, yeah. That wouldn't surprise me. I think that that would be the bigger, because I mean, first off it should be noted that they're not very difficult to catch. They're not, it's not, it's one thing to try to capture an Orca and then sell it. It's another thing to store on a beach with a shotgun blast, a few rounds, grab a couple babies and throw it on your boat. 1 (38m 17s): Yeah. It's a very ugly, I mean, you would have seen some of the scenes in the documentary, which by the way, I appreciate you watching. It's a, that's a, I mean, my campaigns try to push this film is the first off. It should be noted that. And I say that a lot, it should be noted that I should have, 0 (38m 32s): Well, we all have like those little catch phrases we use. It's fine. I'll take a note 1 (38m 36s): On that. It's, you know, COVID times it was just an absolute worst, possible time to release of film. If you could imagine it, it just was, I took the, the, the wind out of all film releases and what these was supposed to be a big theatrical events and whatnot. And I was supposed to be on tour and traveling down to zero. Right. And so it's really, I've got a, I'm pushing a grassroots campaign to sort of get eyes on this thing. It's tough. It's a tough it's were, we were also a small Canadian film in a big ocean. Right. So I'm glad that, that you did get it, that you did watch it and watch it do its entirety. 0 (39m 10s): It was like, Oh yeah, of course everyone needs to watch it. I think it was great. Yeah. It was great. I, like I said, I'm, wasn't bullshitting. Like I probably cried like at least 10 times, like those movies, documentaries, I should say, just really get me because I just feel, I don't, I don't understand how people don't have that empathy for this, this creature like to, and I know like the vegans will be like, well, you eat me. And again, like the Buddhist butcher, it's a real thing. Like I like have an appreciation for that sacrifice at the Animal, but that doesn't take away from the fact that I like respect and love these animals. Like those things coexist for me when it comes to protecting these animals. Do you think as science progresses and we learn more about consciousness that we're going to look back at this kind of like the Coliseum 1 (39m 56s): I think we already do. I think those who are in the know already do, and that's why we fight so hard. Anyone who's any, anyone that's gotten close enough to the industry, be it scientists or trainers just by virtue of an experience and all of that. Everyone will tell you that this thing needs to stop that this is all of this. The entirety of this practice needs to stop the, the emotional toll. I mean, I can, I can attest to it personally of separating a baby from its, from its mother or, and especially males males when they're talking from their mothers, it with whales. And, and in my experience, pinnipeds cetaceans as a whole, those, the males just die younger it's because they're so vulnerable. They're just mamma's boys. These are these animals. 0 (40m 35s): And 1 (40m 37s): These, these animals we'll never leave their, their mother's lives or their mother's side for the entirety of their lives. Say for very brief periods of forging or meeting and what that, but aside from that is big male orcas. We'll never leave the mother's side beyond the distance of like a body's length or a mama's boy. And when you tear them from them at a young age, you see what happens to them. They're broken. So no one Can and their level of consciousness is like, it's the thing that bothers you the most as you get closer and closer to them, it's one thing to look at something that is majestic. It's another thing to start to relate to them. And then I have had the benefit of seeing whales in the wild dolphins, in the wild, the animals that I work with are hardly have a version of that. 1 (41m 23s): I mean their drugs, they are starved. They are, they're reduced to puppets. I mean, it's awful. They're not, they're not healthy weights. They're not able to use the things that make them majestic. They can never get up to any top of their top speeds that are not able to, you know, I mean, vocalizing is difficult for them and it was separating these animals and mixing them. And the, you know, it's just an awful practice. And I think that we already looked back at this as well as a barbaric practice. It just, we, we don't collectedly yet. And so there was something called the a hundred or a monkey effect where Collective as a society, everyone's sort of adopted a new level of, of, of, of, of morality or that the practice changes. And it changes very quickly. 1 (42m 3s): I think, I think we've gone past that. I think that the paradigm shift has started. We are just, everything has been under that boiling point waiting. We're just waiting for that small little catalyst. I think COVID did it. I don't think people are gonna leave the confines of their homes after this period to go to the zoo. I think you're going to go on the first thing everyone is going to say is this, this sucks. I know what that feels like. And what is the phone? We never knew that people are now. And you know, there's all of the meat look at. We live in a meme world and, and all of them are some of the more powerful it means are, Hey, how's, how's your last four months been sucks. And then they'd show an animal that's been in Captivity for 40 years pacing. It's a cage or a swimming in circles. So I think the perspective really changes is moving forward. So I think the paradigm shift has a midst us. I think all of this change is very rapidly. 1 (42m 45s): And, and again, the, the, the, the market is decided by a By by people's votes. They decide what their dollars and see the world is not a place. People give a shit to go to. And especially in a place like, fuck the Marineland, which a SeaWorld is a day of the spa VS Murray land. You know, 0 (42m 60s): Man, I can't. So that footage was really rough when you were going down that little walkway and you had like these tiny little cells that like the Animal could barely move in and you're like, how long are they in there? Like that? Is it stimulating it at all? Like that? I just don't. There's so much land there too. So I guess, is it possible because I'm like very Anti Captivity I'm Anti I I was doing a little bit of research and it was really infuriating because most of the stuff that was coming up, it was like pro Marine parks, pros, you, and it was like the benefits of Captivity these animals live longer healthier lives. 0 (43m 44s): And you're like, no, that's not true. Absolutely. No, that's not true. And it's like, I think half for Orca is, I don't know what the comparable number is. For Walrus is, are seals or dolphins But we know that it's not true. They are, like you said, they're not reading or they're not using their instinct's. Right. They are not using, they're not hunting. They're not, 1 (44m 4s): They were all drunk. They're all drunk and they're all drunk. 0 (44m 8s): Oh my gosh. So you're like, you know that it's not, that's not the case, but you have some people that are just like ignorant to it. Right. They just want to go see a really cool animal and they don't think anything of it. And they were like, Oh, well, they don't think they are not human they're lesser than, and when I was trying to like, I guess compare it to the Coliseum was like, well, how long did that go on? Because people thought that was okay for right. Like, just go Battle each other and kill this elephant and all of these things. And that was about 400 years until there was a shift in like, just interest and what was socially acceptable and a couple of other like reasons. And then I Googled and found the first Walrus was put in Captivity in 1608 and in the first word, it was 1961. 0 (44m 52s): So I'm like, we are so behind. We are so behind that, that shift in consciousness and what's like acceptable. And I'm like, I think I hope that your right with COVID creating some kind of connection of the dots and people are seeing like, man, this sucks for me. I think of how awful for a week for anyone that does have, like, I'm like a healthy lifestyle and you move and you not necessarily workout, but like you're doing something for your body. Think of like, when you take time off, like how much, like a week impacts, like your, your mental ability, right? Like I get angry. I get like, just a lot, like quicker to any like emotionally, I get like sad and faster. My body starts hurting. 0 (45m 34s): And it's like, what do you think this Animal is supposed to be, you know, diving and hunting. Like, what is that do to them? We don't wanna talk about it because they were just, Animals 1 (45m 45s): No they're in pools. And if they are spy hop, if they lift their heads above the two foot wall that surrounds them, they see trees. And the reality is for the animals that are in Marineland, you are thousands of kilometers or miles from any ocean. So their percentage chance of ever having any semblance of own natural life again, or it is almost a net zero. Imagine like they're, they're doomed and they go with they, they lift and they don't see an, Oh there's like every single day. They're trying to imagine, because they're so intelligent every single day, they're trying to crap the formula of trying to get back home. 1 (46m 25s): That's it, that's all they're trying to do. Every which way was trying to figure out how to get out. It's like, it's a strange thing, but that's how their minds work until they eventually, they S they, they suffer from this thing called glucose is where they go on autopilot. You see it all the time. Currently, there's a whale at the Marineland. She's been to Captivity 42 years old. She lives completely alone, or an organ named Kiska. She swims and circles scratches. Our backs here does to a pumps of her tail here, a breeds here, and then rolls slightly to an angle here. And then it does that on a repeat all day until the bus that train has come with their buckets, they smashed the bucket against the, the, the greats, which summons had to come up. And they have got her for about a minute, have interest with a shovel, the food and drugs into her, and let her go again and you'll see it with animal's a bear it back and forth in the cage. 1 (47m 13s): Tiger's back and fourth in a cage. It was actually a study that just came out. In fact, it's just that someone tagged me in a tweet just yesterday of a bear that was released after 25 years of Captivity and in its new and its new a sanctuary, it still walking in the exact same path without the cage bars there. It's just, they just go eventually. 0 (47m 35s): Yeah, it was the, what else are you going to do without, you know, that stimulant, that stimulation. I think that anyone would do that because it's got to be comparable to the studies that they've done on like solitary, solitary confinement with prisoners. Like those people tend to undergo psychosis as well. Like they lose, they are, they quite literally lose their mind. So it was, 1 (47m 54s): They are rationalizing and they are able to negotiate, speak the language they are able to. They are not also their, their natural state of being. Isn't also threatened by virtue of being seen. When the animals have eyes on them, it changes them. They don't want to be seeing their objective in life. And the tools that are, that are given to them are to be hidden. So when they are seen its already a matter to them. So it's like imagine the, the, the analogy of the, a, of the person in the solitude, solitary confinement, and Now make it significantly worse and make yourself an alien where you can't speak negotiate and your being seen by something and managed by something that is not your friend and that you can't connect with. 1 (48m 36s): You know, 0 (48m 37s): That was a connection. I was wondering if anyone was gonna make and people are applying to think I'm a weirdo for this. But like obviously a lot of people are talking about, UFO's like all of that stuff's getting released. And like, I wonder if that might be something that shifts our minds with how we treat animals. 'cause here's this other more advanced species, right? We don't know if they're the same or if they are what they looked like, all of these things, cause the general public doesn't really have that information. But assuming that there are way more advanced, but they don't speak our language. They might not even communicate the way we communicate. And they look down on us, like wear this kind of barbaric on refined. 0 (49m 18s): Animal what if we get put in cages? What if they assume that we don't have feelings or a loved one's and just feel like it's all, it's all connected. And I'm just like, I'm just shocked at the U S hasn't followed suit. So with the Laws that you helped to get passed in Canada, what does that mean for the animals that are still in Captivity and like moving forward? 1 (49m 41s): So the Animals that Marineland can not be sold to not be bred Marineland to no longer import any dolphins, whales, and porpoises. Now it's important to us to make that distinction because a lot of people that tribute a Marine mammals as a species of animal, but like Walrus and seals and say that they're not the same as scientifically whales, dolphins and porpoises. So they are they're Captivity is banned, but because, because property Laws are such that Marine Lenz Current a collection. Are there property, they can't merely B seized so they can be taken, but because we tied them up with enough red tape, if Marineland intends on exporting, any of them are the laws that are, that govern these Animals Now I'd have to stay with them. 1 (50m 29s): So if Marineland we're to export Animals to another facility, or it could not be bred, that could not be a all of this things or they can not be, they cannot perform. So there's a lot of red tape around the Animals Marineland is trying to sell and you know, But but the unfortunate reality is when you tie a lot of red tape around Animals, their value goes down significantly. So Marineland suffered some major, a major financial blow in that day that were breeding animals and mitigated and, and selling them and trying to sell an export them. And now, you know, there was a burgeoning industry and China that Marina would love to have sold the animals to, but now they can't. So finding a home for the animals is a little more, more challenging, but it was very progressive law in Canada. 1 (51m 10s): If you're gonna export the Animals, there has to be in the attributed the benefit to the Animals, the Animals best interests to have to act, or it has to be in their best interest. So a lot of the moves that Marina we'd like to make might be sideways now comes down to whether or not the country of Canada wants to keep these Animals or move them. But again, the laws continue to follow them. But what's most important is to note that there is a whale sanctuary, its called the whale sanctuary project. They've got a destination, they've got a location rather approved in a odd East of here in Canada and a so called a Newfoundland area on the coast and they're going to build a sanctuary. So they're going to fence off and have this massive environment and Animals will be able to live there. 1 (51m 55s): And B you know, sort of released if you will. I mean, if Animals can be, that will be the end goal, but those that will not, will be always provided with the, the top top level of care by the top, the industry, top scientists and, and whatnot. Anyways, this is like sort of the goal, the end goal for MarinelandIn Animals at least for me is that they wind up there. I'd like to see that happen. So the law in Canada is such that what's, that place is available to them. You know, Marineland will have a hard time saying no. So having them move. So we hope that that gets built very quickly. But other than that, you know, I don't know a MarinelandIn is again, they are stuck, not breeding the animal's, you know what? I do my best to have people watch, but because, because MarinelandIn we sued the Ontario in society for the prevention of cruelty to animals after they charged Marineland with multiple counts of animal cruelty, there's no one left to sort of watch Marineland or two or three sort of oversee the care of their animals because now the Now that even the government won't go in there. 1 (52m 56s): So I sort of become, Relenza sort of become their sheriff. I sort of, I sort of keep them as best I can accountable, but I can't say that there are definitely some missing belugas that Marineland currently, let's say a month five, and they have not been exported. I'm calling them definitely dead. But again, these are just things that, in fact, some of that 2 (53m 20s): Animals okay, breaking news. Some of the animals that 1 (53m 23s): Were meant to be exported to aquarium Marineland now has to change the permits because one of which have died has died and others are already are actually sick. So because Marineland hacks has made an agreement to sell Animals to miss a gram that was five to be exported a that took a little bit longer time because of the red tape of the, the bill that we had passed. And also there's a, a, an animal REITs agency and the state's that are now suing us to keep that expert from happening. And they got a good argument as to why the delay itself, it just offers perspective of just how sick these Animals are, that one dyed one of the five. And then it sounds like multiple others are now sick or the situation is bad men, but we'll just do it every which way that we can in a, in an otherwise very tumultuous political world to create. 1 (54m 9s): Change like, look, if you're an owner of these animals and you see a guy like me coming in and saying, Hey, I'm going to take your Animals. Well, you got all the money in all of the, and all the guns. If you will, then what else, what chance do I stand? And it's just going to take time. It's going to take time, but we are taking those Animals. 0 (54m 24s): I mean, you've done a tremendous job for being one person and going against the massive corporation. I mean, you are quite literally like the reason these Laws are, are being passed. So given that a Walrus is relatively cheap considering right. Eight to $10,000, ballpark, your go-fund me page has done very, I would say very well comparatively to other GoFundMes. He's like, why won't they give you this? Walrus well, it's not like you're not trying to take them home, right? Like you're actually just trying to relocate Smooshi to like a proper facility. 1 (55m 5s): What if I told you that all, even one up at all pay for the entirety of the operation of moving her. And in fact, what if I said that I have enough people ready to fund a place for her that I could have, we could have broke it down a long time ago. This thing wasn't just, Hey, Marineland how about don't suffer millions and millions and millions into the hundreds of million dollars of loss over the pride of this Animal it was to do, I'll get rid of the Lawsuit let's just get rid of everything and let's just move this Animal so I can, I can sleep at night. I'll we'll have done my I'll have done what a good mother will have, what it does fights until he or she gets their baby that I tried to express to them that that's never going to change. 1 (55m 50s): And it's only going to be more and more difficult. They don't seem to be a very reasonable, I think that's evident to anybody who's watching. This is that this is more of a revenge, a, a process of revenge that is being seen through the process of justice. But again, I'm trying to catch up with justice. So we are in a strange place that if Smooshi and her baby 'cause, we learned that MarinelandIn impregnated her and then she had a calf back in June. If they're still alive, then, then I stopped and then I'm getting them out of there. And if they're not, then the justice I seek is in the court of law that they, you know, abuse over the years to try to keep me out of there from being able to get her it's a double-edged sword. 1 (56m 34s): But I tried to, I tried to keep it cheap and easy for them in the entirety of the time. I didn't want to have movies made about this. Right. I know it's a crazy world. Walrus moms don't want to be on the cover of newspapers and stuff. They just don't. They just want to be chilling. They just, 0 (56m 47s): Okay. So like who, like, who is this mastermind though? So like the original owner is his dad. Right. And then his son passed away as well. And from what I remember, it is his wife Now that kind of is running the operation and I'm assuming she was probably, Oh, she's not okay. It's okay. 1 (57m 5s): Well she's there. Her name was president But. She's not running the operation now is running the entirety of the thing. And it is, and it's through the instruction of the Now dead owner. 0 (57m 16s): So, which is just mind blowing. You were like, okay, 1 (57m 20s): Well it's only mind blowing if you don't consider the best interests of the lawyer in this picture. And if we consider the vulnerability of a elder owner who may not have a full grasp of the image that's being presented before her, 0 (57m 35s): Are you able to talk to her or is that like frowned upon? Okay, 1 (57m 40s): Well, not just frowned upon it with a compromise, my legal standing and that the lawyer would be the lead. Call me this dangerous threat, then have to have the police intervene and do all this crazy stuff. But that's the opportunity that I wish I could have because I feel like her best interest. And again, I love Maria. I think Maria is a wonderful person. I always have. In fact, even Jon, for as vile as he was. And he was, I still had empathy for the man. And I, and I have a level of understanding have him. He came from a different place. I, I empathize and understand people. I'm not, This put up a wall. You were different than me. That's it. I tried to understand what fuels people it's the best way to effectively negotiate with them. So it looked beyond the, the, the, the flesh in the 3d, if you will. 1 (58m 20s): So in her, she said she was a kind soul and she was wonderful. And I wonder if that isn't working against her in her vulnerability and her Now fabricated fear of me because there was a time when I was in her bedroom, treating her cat with the veterinarians. It was a time when I was invited to go have dinner by her, at her home. These times are not behind us. And they are behind us. 'cause of a fictional story that the lawyer, by virtue of continuing to continuing to propagate a profits, a, a great deal. From so there's a lot of interesting things around this and that I do wish they were more eyes because I think they are far greater injustices than just the, just the abuse of the animals. 0 (59m 0s): Oh, I, I totally agree, but you'd have to start somewhere. Right. So I think what I'm doing. Yeah. So for you, like, I think your story is going to be like such a catalyst for other countries, or at least I hope that it is as far as like progressing and making these laws to make it illegal, to do these shows and to steal babies from their moms. I mean, if you watch these videos, like there are like heartbreaking on it. How, like, there is a lot of money in the world to get me to be one of those people or just as it it's it's dark. So what would you say to someone who is like trying to create change? 0 (59m 42s): Because you've, you have so far of a very successful story. Obviously you are not happy where you're at right now, cause he still wants you want Smooshi, but you've, you've made a big wave. 1 (59m 54s): The thing that I would say to any Aspiring Activists are people out there that our gut checking themselves to create change is number one is check yourself first, look within yourself and determine what it is that is inspiring your need to do to create this change. And are you in fact running from something or going for something? Because if you are looking, if you were running from something, you don't have the long game, there's just no long game for you. Because if you're going to create the level of change that is necessary to have to be impactful, you've got gotta, you have to set yourself up at the edge of the universe and throw yourself off and B you know, and be willing to be both caught and, or a bounce off of a lot of rock on the way down. 1 (1h 0m 39s): So you yourself has to be coming from a place of, of, of being grounded. What I, what I find too often as Activists are more off of wanting to ignore something else, and then they throw them into something and there's just no longevity in that. It's always, short-lived it's trendy. And those things are, I call it proper criminals. I need proper criminals, any people that come to me with a healthy bank account already. So we have a healthy relationship. The bed has made they've, they've lived their life long enough that it isn't an identity. That goes that, that goes well with their tattoos to be, to be holding signs. It's because they're passionate is such that they're willing to see through the cool stuff. 1 (1h 1m 23s): And they are willing to, in to engage with the level of the prospective sacrifice. So what I say to people is balls to the fucking wall. It is, if you're going to do it, put yourself in the hands of the universe sacrifice. And I know that I've been given everything I've needed to throw out my big change. And we had discussed a fork in the road was I was in that bedroom over there, on the floor, in the, in a fetal position, rocking back and forth, deciding whether I was gonna speak out about animal cruelty or not. And that I just, I, I, the prospect of living with myself, if I have just merely walked away, especially by virtue of looking out at the front window and seeing Marineland like, what am I going to stomach? 1 (1h 2m 8s): And we walked away and kept, and or am I going to put myself in the end of the earth, get sued? How did the police and the tough guys sent in my house and to have, you know, all of this craziness? Well, I had resolved if it was, if they're was to be any amount of change, it would require a name and face and an ultimate sacrifice. And so that's what I did. Not everyone has the, that anyone has the opportunity to be me or w you know, I didn't have kids at the time. I was blessed with a healthy enough bank account in that I went on to some stupid reality TV shows. So I was going to quit my job. And even if it were only a brief moment, but again, I wasn't thinking of the Gates. I was just swinging for the fences, hoping someone would catch me and I was caught up and I was very lucky, have won a lottery 15 or 16, 20 times throughout this journey, you know, hanging just by a thread or by the skin of my teeth, from disaster to coming back. 1 (1h 3m 1s): Not everyone needs to do that, but there are professional people out there doing things, and you can help them. And I know it doesn't that seem, it doesn't seem very appealing to many, but sometimes that is the most effective thing that we could do is to keep yourself out of someone's already awesome momentum fight and help them let them go. So for me, my, my battles personal, I always like when people help me, ah, it's not that they don't need the other way. You know, of course we need people on the sidelines and, and doing things, coming to protest in all this fun stuff, but don't sacrifice your life to help me just a, you know, find your purpose and, and you'll know it. Here's the other thing I say to people don't force anything. If you're forcing yourself to find a passion, a dude, you are. 1 (1h 3m 42s): So let's say that you're in the wrong lane at that point. You're just not in the right lane. Okay. 0 (1h 3m 46s): Okay. Would you say this is your destiny? Like, this is part of your, like your fate, if you all, okay. 1 (1h 3m 53s): I've had no choice. And every which way that I tried to fight this, even down to where, when I applied to go on a reality TV show, I knew just by being selected to, to, to audition for it, I knew I was winning. I can feel it in my bones. And I knew that it meant trouble even to the point that if you go back to a 2010 interview with me, it says, what are you going to do with the money I'd won like $50,000. Tax-free right. And Canada, this was like a, this was a, this was a sexy amount of money. That is for a bum like me. So that is a good amount of money, right. There was a nice chunk of change when it was. And I knew, and in that interview, I said, there's like, what are you gonna do with this? I said, trouble has a fine way of finding me. 1 (1h 4m 33s): And I'm just going to hold on to this for a rainy day. But that money is what I use to do to hire lawyers for every person who spoke out against Marineland that got sued. I just started cutting checks like this and said, okay, let's fucking go. And let's see what happens. And from that moment on everything lined up for me in such a way that I just stood there and I was just witnessed and I float. And it's wonderful. And then there are times when I feel as though I resist when I try to make things happen. And when I try too hard, that's when I find myself in a, in an imbalanced state and an ineffective state. So then I try to just return to that place of, okay, well, there's times where you are up there's times when you're down and there's times to sit and rest. And so that's it. I, I, it it's been absolutely my favorite, how it ends for me. 1 (1h 5m 15s): I don't know how I believe it ends exactly. As I've had to believe it from day one, that I'm getting that fucking Walrus that 0 (1h 5m 22s): I really hope you do. Honestly, I do. And I, I see all of the signs, like leading towards you being like the hero of the story. And I think you have very supportive people behind you, and you have obviously been doing a serious Media Run, you've been on some really, really huge podcasts. So I don't think that those things would be lining up for nothing. 1 (1h 5m 41s): I have to agree with you. Like it was when I stopped resisting that, that every, or even the perspective of the worst outcomes become far more tolerable or, or your able to, to look at them from the healthiest of perspectives when you are not resisting. It's like, Oh, no, if that happens, life's over. And I wish I could tell myself from eight years ago, Hey, and I want to add, and you're not going to die. Go ahead, Sue. You have to get sued for millions, bro. It's fun. Like, no, one's going to tell me that, but you know me in retrospect, if I could put my hands on my shoulder, like, dude, don't pick yourself up over to this shit. I come on a buckle up. We were doing what it is. We have no choice, but to do anyways, what are you gonna do? 1 (1h 6m 23s): Is I go in for an operation? You're going to come play and not take the needle, put it in. 0 (1h 6m 26s): Isn't that so interesting. How you can look back at those moments where you were just scared shitless and you were like, it's all gonna be okay. Like I wish my, my Now self could go to my then self and say, it's all gonna be okay. And I think that's such a powerful life lesson. And I mean, I've learned at a a hundred times over is anytime. Like you're trying to fight something or are you looking at things from the perspective of like fear or anger that it just, it makes it worse, but the moment you just like, and like let go is when everything starts to kind of happen for you. 1 (1h 6m 59s): There's something to be said and I'm learning it. But you know, when you face a really difficult decision, Matt sleep on it. I know that sounds crazy, but that the unconscious mind has a way of unraveling problems that don't otherwise exist and that it does the work for you. It can, a lot much of the work can be done for you in an hour. If you allow your self that time to get people, don't give themselves enough credit for what, what is the body of the psyche can do on the floor for itself in that, in, in the realm of healing. But I look back at old patterns that has long since disappeared and I wouldn't have even had known, but, you know, I was healing. I was healing throughout much of the pain, but you don't know it, but you know, you are only able to, to realize that once your answer sort of emerged or as you come out of these, Fogg's in these different States of being. 1 (1h 7m 51s): So yeah, of course it will be a great time. Then the other thing is that in those moments, I did always think to myself, you're going to want to look back on this. And so I, I have those conversations with myself and I almost have it in a S in a real time sense because I can freeze time from the times I was making it difficult decision. I can revisit myself there. I can't hug myself, but I feel as though I'm still making the connection to that person, that I still feel like I'm able to back and guide somehow, 0 (1h 8m 17s): Well, no 100%. It's a very similar to like inner child work. So I'm in a lot of like therapy sessions or some like spiritual spirituality is they have you go back to these traumatic moments are like these moments of hardship, like a younger self, and then having your more mature self with the information that you now have acquired in giving that younger self, that information and that, that hug and that love and healing that you're doing that without even knowing. Yeah, 1 (1h 8m 49s): There's a lot, I've, I've done some therapy and I probably need to do significantly more. But the reason that talk therapy, especially as it seems to be a waste of my time is every time I do any sessions within the third session, I've become the therapist. So that doesn't work out for me. I'd have to find my own ways of coping with things, but, you know, whenever it gets to me, 0 (1h 9m 10s): Well, you guys are legalizing silicide, I've been Now. So, I mean, the work that they do with that is in therapy is insane. Like, I want to say it's after work. Well, do you find that, so did you find that there is a difference though, if you do it, I've never done them. I actually have like my first, like a session, if you will, a schedule to, for April and I'm really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have like a showman and the whole, the whole thing. So I'm curious. So they suggest, and again, I'm, I'm not speaking from experience yet, but they suggest that there is a difference when you do it, like recreationally or at a party, which was like very frowned upon. 0 (1h 9m 54s): And like, you feel the community. And then like, when you have like a purpose going in and like preferably an elder, so preferably like a clinician or a shaman, whatever, like path you want to take, if you wanna go more medical or a more spiritual that the experience is different. And then the studies that I was reading were saying, like, after one, like a decent dose of Psilocybin like people's depression is gone, people's PTSD is gone. People's anxieties are gone with your experience with that. Like, are you, are you doing like these big doses with like an elder or guidance or you just kind of self guiding? 0 (1h 10m 34s): Okay. 1 (1h 10m 34s): That's funny. You mentioned that. So I did do an ask a Journey some years ago, two years ago in a, in a jungle in Mexico, I did it with a, I mean, it was, it, it was a different experience, but it was nonetheless the psychedelic experience with the ceremony. And that was great. And that was like more of a higher dose sort of that, that was good for my ego. And I should know that I have a pretty extensive a history with, with psychedelics spending from high school to just the boat all the time. Since then should be noted though. But my experiences that I've never looked at it is still a sirens and what, not as anything but recreation For the longest time. It just didn't occur to me even smoking. It was such that you did it at parties while you were drunk to just make you giggle a little bit more. 1 (1h 11m 18s): It never occurred to me that this was Medication mez in my experience with this, with smoking pot at at least, or at least as a, as it pertains to this is when I was on an antidepressant meds. And I didn't like them. I never did. They didn't work with me. My friend suggested smoking a lot of weed to get off of them because I have been addicted to them. And I had asked the doctor I'll, I'll go on, on psychotics. As long as they're not addictive. He's like these ones aren't. And then every time I try to get off of them, I was getting these electric shocks between my brains. Every time I've moved my eyes, it, it sounded like there was just, things were awful. So I kept running back to the medicine cabinet and my friend finally said, Hey, it just spoke a shit ton of hopper. It was like, okay, well, let's try this. So I went from, you know, and this is about eight years ago. 1 (1h 12m 0s): So I went from smoking for shits and giggles and otherwise eating mushrooms and, and what not for shits and giggles to suddenly being like, okay, okay. Okay. Okay. So now we've got this medicine, if you will, or rather my perspective change that suddenly this was a medicine that could be working with it. So I worked myself, all of these psychotics and suddenly found myself smoking a lot of weed, which I admittedly do admittedly do. But my relationship with marijuana is significantly different than most. I mean, you can see that I'm already a motor mouth. I took three bong rips before the interview. How did I not? We'd be, you'd think I was on a weekend. I can, I can wipe out the entire city with what I, what, what I spoke in a day, but my relationship is different with marijuana. It, it doesn't affect me like it does others. 1 (1h 12m 41s): Again, I literally did three bond rips before coming on the show and I get a bond cleaning right now, but I'll show you my little status in a second. But my, my relationship was such as that I developed a symbiosis with it. I see it. You know, it, it works with your consciousness. It, especially when you get in to suicide. And so what Psilocybin will do is going to strip away from you, all of the bullshit, it's going to take away your bullshit filter, and you're going to think less in taxes and commercials. And This these jingles in your head, and you're going to be brought inside. Everything is inside. Everything is inside the entirety of your experience or the entirety of your life, of all of your outward, the experience is inside. So that brings you back in, and its sort of tries to harness you to your truest form of self. 1 (1h 13m 27s): Now that's in different doses. I mean there's, there's different experiences to have. And if there's something that I liked to do, which is micro dosing, which is just so little, such a little bit, that you don't consciously feel it, but what it does, the benefit of it is it takes away that edge, that immediate edge of sadness. So that even that, even that prevalence to that, to go towards sadness, it, it will, it will give you that, that level of pause. So just a little greater aspect of, of perspective from a, from like a more sensible rather than like, it just grounds you more. So I just work with it. Well, and we were talking, 3 (1h 14m 4s): I might as well, what it is 1 (1h 14m 7s): While we're here. I, okay. Lets just take a look at, this is all of the various terms of similar to what I smoke. You know, I smoke, I smoke it, but here are, if were going to look and now this wasn't the prettiest, you know, well here's my, here's the suicide, you know, I'm not sitting there saying, Hey look, everybody become, but here in Canada it should be noted that it's Legal. So my use of it was of course responsible and I don't drive when I'm Hi blah, blah, blah. But that's been my experience. I had a doctor tell me that he expected that there will be a time when everybody would be on antidepressants. 1 (1h 14m 47s): And that, to me, it was my wake up call that I want it to be the exact, only person that wasn't and can not be said despite the fact that I smoke as much as I do. And I, and I take the suicide ones, man. I'm I'm I do well with those meds in the same way that I say that I work well with meat and also work well with natural Medication I just do like for me in, in, in the state of mind, in the state of being that I am, I need to go inside more often. That's what I need it. It sorta, it takes you away from the outside a little bit. I think you're going to explain it to enjoy the experience if you've never done it before, did you smoke pot? 0 (1h 15m 20s): Well, once in a while. Yeah. I'm not like I'm, I'm like someone that has half a cup of coffee and I'm like ready to go or I'll have like one glass of wine and I'm like, Ooh, okay. This is, I'm very sensitive to any kind of like drug, if you will. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I know. I had to like let that go before is what they say, but we'll see, 1 (1h 15m 47s): You'll be fine, which is the good news. And as soon as you say, Hey, I'm going to be fine, no matter how difficult this is, then that's the good news because every form of that being difficult is intended for the flip side of it to be better. So work with the medication because the more you resist it, the more it's going to, it's going to make you resist it more like you have to work with it. Don't work against it because it'll be, it'll just beat you up in the process. So take yourself to it. And that I was excited for me, to be honest, I actually got invited on, on, I actually got invited on Wednesday may be to go to Toronto, to participate in the DMT smoking ceremony, which is a, that's a whole other level of wow. 1 (1h 16m 29s): And thinking about it and then I'm due for a reset. So it may happen, but I'm way in it right now. We'll see. Okay. 0 (1h 16m 36s): So with that, so I, I have a cop dad and growing up in the way that he taught us not to do drugs, was like, if you do that, you're going to die. If you do that, you're going to die. Like even with we, the first time I ever smoked pot, it was like, I'm going to die. Like, he's just like really drilled. Is that in? So it took a long, long time and just like breeding, like the modern research that was like, these are the healing properties, all of these plants. I didn't, I never, I didn't smoke till I was like 19. And then, then that was like the only drug like I had, I had ever done. So I was in LA and I got invited to this celebrity house party and we were all there hanging out and I'm like, Oh, this is so fun. And they were passing around, well, I thought was weed. 0 (1h 17m 18s): So someone had said it was weed. Would you like to take a hit blah, blah, blah. And I take like, literally Won regular drag of what I thought was a vape. And all of a sudden, like my entire perspective change. And I'm like, well, what is happening? And everyone's like turned into like, I didn't even know almost like a cartoon. And then I started getting like really paranoid and I like, my body felt weird and it turns out it was weed with DMT. Oh wow. And I had no clue. I was like, this is not the first experience I would have picked. And you don't just pass that around without telling people like People were like handling it very differently. 0 (1h 18m 1s): And then as it, it was like, Oh, this isn't good. But it was like, I don't even know where I am. I might not get home like a, so I do want to experience that properly. Cause I heard that that's such a magical insight that you get from doing that. But again, I want to do at eight, knowing that I'm doing it and be in the right setting so that I can like have the most fulfilling experience. But I think you should go for it. 1 (1h 18m 26s): Yeah. It may happen. And I'm, I'm, I'm flirting with the idea right now. I'm running out of excuses. Well, I mean, I hate to say it, but we are under the stupid locked down where you are not allowed to really believe in the house and shouldn't be going into like in Toronto, like a particularly nasty right now. So it's, it's really almost a logistical one where suddenly I go there and I'm in trouble. I can't spend the night. I've got to drive my ass back, but I'm driving my ass back in a snow storm. You know? I don't know. It's just one of those deals where maybe may be best to wait in a month or two. I don't know. It will see the medicine calls you, which is the good news. This was an opportunity that came about to me. And it wasn't, it didn't feel like the calling as much as an opportunity. All know if it's meant to happen, I'll be there on Wednesday. 1 (1h 19m 9s): If it is, believe me in the same way that you decided to do yours, it, it, the medicine will call you when it's time. So I'm not worried about that. 0 (1h 19m 18s): Yeah. It's interesting. I, I like had started like getting a lot of curiosity around it and then I started seeing like little docu series about it and like goop did one where they took people to South America to do like this Iowasca experience. And they did like a Psilocybin experience and they had these testimonials and this one woman had told like a really personal story about how she was suicidal. And it was like a daily thing for her to have to decide to not, to not kill herself. And then traditional medicine wasn't working for her. She said it was like making it actually worse until she discovered Mushrooms. And then she started doing micro dosing daily and she has been micro-dosing I think she said I haven't watched the documentary in a while, but I want to say it was like over 10 years or 15 years or something and it just for it went away and I'm like, if there's like all of this, these crazy testimonies, she's not the only one. 0 (1h 20m 12s): Right? Like this is a very common statement that people with depression make that are using Mushrooms, which is why a company's like maps and yeah, you know, they're doing the research because there's something there. So its like, we need to take the stigma away from certain drugs. If they have this benefit and realized again, it all comes down to money. Right? If you can take one Mushrooms trip for like, I don't know, a a hundred bucks and then your depression is gone. Like where is the repeat customer for that? 1 (1h 20m 42s): About the fact that marijuana went from being illegal in Canada to being essential within like six months of the law passing. So literally from your illegal, this stuff is recreational in legal and everything else to your Now essential. People need their Medication. But this is my 23 year old cats. 0 (1h 20m 60s): No way 1 (1h 21m 3s): It was hugs or he needs his, he needs his comforting hugs. It took him a lot to jump off here, but he just needs to have this right here. 0 (1h 21m 9s): Oh wow. I didn't know a cat could even live that long. 1 (1h 21m 12s): He's got like a, so I got him when I got back from South Korea. I, I thought the first thing I'll do as a newly minted men at the age of 25 with this is my new independence were getting my own apartment closer to the MarinelandIn that was gonna get a cat. And so I went and got this guy. They said that he was seven years old at the time. So this is like 2005. So I've got them out of, you know, we've got to be at varying ages. I figure if he wasn't selling it at the time he might of been, he runs the show and he gets to the mic anyways. He's a, I had a, maybe four years old at the time and he's super old. He's the most sweetest oldest boy here, but now he's got a soft his head and I love it. Oh my God. 0 (1h 21m 54s): No, you're totally fine. So I wanted to ask given like your, like your experience, like you have a very rare insight to, I guess like the perspective is as far as Animals and Captivity, it goes like most of us can assume things and you ha you have scientists on both sides saying yes Animals can thrive a new animals. Can't do you think it's possible for certain animals to do well in Captivity and be fulfilled and happy? Or do you think it kind of all as a wash? 1 (1h 22m 24s): I think there are, I think there are situations where they can be fulfilled and happy. I think it's rare, but I think it, depending on what the, depending on what the objective is, if the objective is a mere contentment yeah. That you can, you can achieve contentment in certain Animals. Can you allow for an environment for which they can thrive because that's an entirely different thing than being content in an environment. Thriving is a bit more of a challenge. A but do I think that exists? Absolutely. I think that was a model that we are all going towards. And I think that just sanctuaries, I don't see a problem and preserving smaller environments for animals that don't necessarily migrate. So let's use CLC lions as an, of a seal on the side of a cliff, a rock cliff, does it need to swim very far to forage doesn't need to travel very far to, to breed it. 1 (1h 23m 15s): Doesn't breed so much so rampantly that it will cause a crazy ecosystem ecosystem and balanced. And it's not nothing that can be mitigated under a, to a certain extent to, with, with under human care. So I do feel like there's spaces where we could find a level of balance Over even, even not so vast environments, but does that, does that work with lions and elephants and giraffes and, and apes and, and, and, and whales? Well, it becomes a challenge, but our responsibility, I think as humans is, is to obviously conserve their natural environment. But if we're going to keep them, if we're going to hold them and, and, and where you're going to, to, if they're going to rely on us, we have, we have a responsibility of giving them at least a semblance of a free life so that they can be what they're meant to be a whale in a hyper chlorinated pool. 1 (1h 24m 11s): That, that is Harley the size of a larger than an Olympic sized pool is not a whale anymore. It's just not. So I do feel like they're are going to be in the future more and more examples of what can be achieved. I think there's going to be some level of trial and error, and that is fair. If the, if the intentions are, are right, I mean, look, there's there's pain and evolution and there's going to be some level of failure. But I think the ultimate goal will be return Animals to their most natural state of being, which is in their most natural environment preserve. And those that cat rescue rehabilitate keep and, and give them as best. 1 (1h 24m 56s): You can a semblance of a natural environment and, and use those to educate the people it's all happening again, the, the, the, the, the, the, the public vote with our dollars. And that that's the evolution that evolution of zoos in those that are going to choose not to evolve well, then we're going to leave them in our dust. No problem. 0 (1h 25m 14s): Yeah. That's the interesting thing is that the, the science is used a lot, like to keep them for a public education, but you were like, well, what are you studying though? Because that animal is not behaving like it would at all in the wild. So you're not, 1 (1h 25m 28s): Well, he was gone ahead and attributed it a second level to the thought. So, you know, you're a rare, because most people just say, Oh, they're doing science. And that it ends on that to say, well, what level of science can be attributed to the, to the wild kid? And then the next person says, where's the popcorn. 0 (1h 25m 44s): So hopefully we get less people asking for pork popcorn and more people are critically critically thinking because, 1 (1h 25m 51s): Well, the shitty places will leave. The shitty place is to the people that want the popcorn, then go ahead and have it. It's just going to be a few and far less and less and less people. And eventually what happens is people start feeling shame for supporting those. It, it, it just, it becomes with a collective conscience, a Change if you will. So I think that I'm not saying, I'm not saying, Hey, go out there and publicly shame these people, or what I'm saying by virtue of doing this. And you're just not going to want to show yourself so people that are there are natural behaviors, we'll eventually change once, you know, once the, the perspective of society catches up and we're well, on our way. I mean, you know, I mean, just by virtue of having this conversation, we've, Now attributed or, or giving other people a reason to explore this subject even more. 1 (1h 26m 31s): And, and that will continue to continue to ripple. 0 (1h 26m 34s): So when do you expect to hear, I guess, like some more advancements with like your, with your case. I know you can't say a ton of things, but I mean, I follow you a bunch of people follow you, and we all just kind of want to know, like, are you, do you think trial's going to happen soon? Or do you think you might be able to avoid it and I'm going to do, 1 (1h 26m 56s): Here's what we were at. So a, my lawyer has to have this Friday and to submit materials and response to Marineland who gave their materials for this new call. It it's called a motion without going through all of the details of it. And it's just, it's just quite literally another hoop to jump through. It's just an expensive hoop. And, and the good news is I've got to be the most part of the funding. So I'm not too concerned. It's just a matter of going through it. And then Marineland promised us one more, a thing they're trying to change. And I'm looking forward to working with my lawyer to crafting that update, because too often, the thing about litigation is much of the within action stuff. Both parties are to assume a level of have a compliance But, but compliance to be ethics that you don't reveal too much about it. 1 (1h 27m 42s): It's these resolutions are meant to be done very quietly. So, yeah, I've, I've sort of grabbed this thing and tried to, to hype it up like a UFC event, right. I'm trying to make a very boring thing, exciting. So I'm trying to get people hyped up or something, and it's otherwise not exciting, but Marineland his down to their last legs. And so my guess is this time next week, I assume to have a day or in the next couple weeks, because of, you know, because of COVID in the house, attendances aren't happening. But I do, I do credit to the judge with wanting to move matters forward enough that she is expediting This. So we are having the matter of her in a writing, which is the shame. Otherwise, you know, it's easier to get media attention when there's, camera's in the room. But so then, you know, in the next month, I'll have lots to talk about, and the next two months I'll have even more. 1 (1h 28m 25s): And then after that, I'm hoping for a trial date. And my lawyer is confident that the Marineland, I mean, there's no way of knowing what they're going to pull, but again, because this is straight up abuse in the process, nothing is beyond me to be expected to see no way of knowing what they're going to do. Next. I can tell you what their not going to do is provide evidence of anything that they've alleged of me, because it doesn't exist. And then as far as Smooshi goes, I mean, I'm, I'm keeping this as simple as possible. If she's still, if she's still alive, let me see her immediately. Let me visit her and will stop all the litigation. Well, just to end it well, we'll pause it immediately. Let me see here. And then there have to, let's see if we can negotiate a mutual, you know, some, some, somewhere where we can send her. 1 (1h 29m 6s): And if that exists, man, I'm walking away from this whole thing that you guys never see me again. You don't hear from me to have to talk to me any more. I'm just here to help on my Walrus. And, and, and, and that's it that that's a good enough for me, but I don't see that happening at that. Is it like that? So I think what you're going to see as it is possibly a trial, you know, again, because there's a lot of injustice and this, I do feel like there's not enough scrutiny on the lawyer itself himself. So I do want to see his song and dance in front of the judge. When he tries to explain that his client's was making him do these weirdo things, the entirety of the time, when in fact, maybe the client didn't, I'm very interested to see how this goes. I have a feeling it's going to go, it's gonna have a few sharp turns on the way. 0 (1h 29m 49s): Okay. So do you want to tell the listeners, like, where are they can follow you about any way that they can support you? Websites go fund me is all of that? 1 (1h 29m 57s): Absolutely. So I am on Twitter as Walrus whisper I'm on Instagram. Walrus whisper that one is two words, and you can follow me as well, by the way, I noticed that you don't 0 (1h 30m 8s): That's 1 (1h 30m 8s): Okay. No judgment here. You can go two. I know some people like to help with my, my Legal Cost. So you can go to Save Smooshi dot com, which is S a V E S M O O S H i.com. And if you're a person who likes Merck, I've got some shirts and whatnot. It's, it's, it's all dealt with through someone else. But go to a steel, a Walrus dot com and you can get like a life is short Steele, a Walrus shirt, or we can get all the cool, different things that they've been there or adding stuff every day. I mean, these, these guys are doing a great job, but I'm not. I'm just, you know, and every which way that you want it, you want to credit me with all of these significant change that I try to remind everyone that I stand on the shoulders of giants and that in every which way that I'm to be credited with any of the changes happened, that there is no me without you. 1 (1h 30m 52s): There is none. You know, I, I have people that I, I had the opportunity to ask the big money people. For a single solitary cheque that we take care of. All of my problems. I've never done it. I've always felt from day one, granted one, that it wasn't anybody, this, but we always felt that if you want to sustain change is going to require more people than, than dollars. And so I had to tell people, I don't need a lot from you. I just need a lot of you. So they'll shoot me. A coffee is worth and, and tell a friend and, and we are creating the change. If you, if you like it and keep me going and keeping it in this game. 0 (1h 31m 30s): Well, I think you're doing a beautiful thing. I wish you luck, and I'm going to keep my eyes on, on you. It was a pleasure talking to you. That's it for this week's episode. If you enjoyed the podcast, please rate and review, and don't forget to hit that subscribe button. You can also share this podcast with a friend. It helps my podcast to grow, and I really appreciate it. I hope to see you next week.