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March 17, 2021

#35 Sall Grover- CEO of Giggle a platform for women

Chatting with Candice

  Sall Grover

Episode Run Time: 01:24:27


Sall Grover is a former Hollywood screenwriter and CEO of Giggle, a female-only app that connects women worldwide for freelance work, activism, and emotional support, all without unwanted interruptions and misogynistic abuse. Grover was inspired to launch the app after bearing years of sexual abuse during her time in Hollywood. In this episode, we discuss the importance of having a women-only app, dealing with transitions, and emphasizing with sexually abused women.   

Links and Resources

Sall's LinkedIn

Sall's Twitter

Get the Giggle App via Apple or Google Play Store 

Support the show (http://patreon.com/candicehorbacz)


0 (0s): Like you said earlier, we tend to over. Correct. And I think unfortunately there is going to be a lot of nonsense before we, again over-correct and the people that are going to probably suffer those consequences are the people that were allegedly, supposedly trying to protect. Right. And it's just the nature of the beast. I do think that this is an overcorrection, but I've also made the point that you know what? One group never gets an overcorrection 1 (24s): Women. Hello? Everybody at your listening to Chatting with Candice, I'm your host, Candice Horbacz before we get started on this week's episode, if you want to support the podcast, you can go to Chatting with Candice dot com. From there, you can sign up for our Patrion account, where you get early access to episodes, or you can click that little link that says, buy me coffee. Both things help me out a ton as I'm just getting started. And then another way that you can support the podcast is simply by leaving a review and clicking that five star button. And if you're listening on YouTube, don't forget to hit like and subscribe. So one of our last pieces of housekeeping, if you are a CBD fan, it's all the rage I've been using a camera it's O M U R a. 1 (1m 9s): And it's really cool. They have this awesome technology that doesn't keep the F the flower. It just kind of warms it. So it keeps it super pure and that integrity stays intact. It's a lot more gentle on your lungs. If you want to try it out, it's a 15% off with code Candice. Again, that's a Mira. It's O M you are a code Candice for 15% off. It is not number one in Europe for no reason, they are starting to make a splash in the States. So definitely go check them out. If you are in a state or country where weed is legal, they also have a THC brand or a line that's really great, but I'm in North Carolina. So CBD for me. 1 (1m 51s): And just a couple more things before we head into the episode. So Thursday nights, I'm going to be live on Twitch and you can follow me on social to see what time I would be broadcasting. So Twitter is probably the best and it's at Candice Horbacz or on Instagram. And then Friday nights, we're going to have a new series called deeper where I invite the guests to rejoin. The conversation will be Chatting, live in, taking guests on to the stage for a live Q and a. So if we touch on topics, but we didn't get deep enough, and this is a great opportunity for you to ask our guests and participate in the podcast, which is pretty cool. So again, they will all be posted on my social accounts times are obviously going to vary to accommodate the guest schedule. 1 (2m 36s): So we just make sure that you follow me on Twitter and Instagram at Candice we're back. And I will keep you updated with my schedule. I'm really excited for this clubhouse is a really cool platform. So I hope to see you there now, a quick word from one of our sponsors. So if you are a fan of CBD, as most people are these days, I started using the full flower, see with CBD from a Mara it's O M U R a. So it's really unique in the sense that you can shop at the different flowers. They kind of give you a tasting menu, similar to a wine experience, which I just absolutely love. I think it's such a fun little add on, they actually don't burn the flower. 1 (3m 19s): So it's a gentle heat, which makes it a lot more enjoyable, enjoyable. It keeps the integrity of the flower. It's a lot more gentle on your lungs and just a better experience. Overall. I liked that the dosing is already measured out for you. So there's no, no mess. It's like this little cartridge kind of just pop in. And if you want to check it out, you get 15%. If you use the code, Candice. So head on over to a Mura cbd.com, it's O M E R a cbd.com and use code Candice for 15% of. And with all of that said, I hope you enjoy this week's episode. We have CEO of Giggle cell Grover. 2 (4m 4s): I'll be like, totally fine by just three houses. But we find that for my alarm went off and I was like, what can I quit? 1 (4m 12s): Oh my gosh. You're a very brave for scheduling something that our, I like try to wake up at six. If I like really have stuff to get done. And I just can't do it. I'm not a morning person. If my life depended on it, 2 (4m 22s): I can't do work in the morning. And I, I, yeah, like, so I'll go, I'll have a nap off to this for a few hours 1 (4m 31s): And then I don't have to, 2 (4m 32s): But then I don't do much work kind of a month before midday. I'm like, will be useless. Like I can to answer a few questions, but I'm a bit like, just leave me with it. And then like, I'll hit my stride. And until like, I could work until four o'clock in the morning. No problem. 1 (4m 49s): Yeah. Late hours. Aren't an issue for me, but we have a one-year-old to my schedule has been like all over the place and takes a lot of energy. 2 (4m 58s): I actually, in my building, there's a, a woman. She has her little girl just actually just turned one last week. And I was so exhausted yesterday. And I was saying to her, I was like, how do we, how do you do it? And the moms do it. And I'm like, I just, I just have a start-up. 1 (5m 18s): Okay. Well, that's really difficult too. My husband, he did the whole, like build an app and bootstrap it, but, and you are a very brave souls for doing that. It is the most trying thing that we've gone through as a couple of weeks. 2 (5m 35s): It is like, because my mom and I are on Giggle and I'll never forget like the conversation. And we were sitting there, but many glasses of wine go to the wind and be like, yeah, we are going to start looking to create an app for women to connect. If we knew, then what we knew now I'd still do it once. We wouldn't be nice to know. Oh my gosh. 3 (5m 58s): So how, what was that process like for you? Did you, did you bootstrap it like paid for everything yourself? Did you get funding? 2 (6m 5s): So are we going to invest it's that we did have a family and friends investment round, and that's how we were able basically to get to where we are now. We wanted to do things one, like, obviously I own it. I want to own the company. I don't want somebody else to give it out. And especially in a startup, well, most of the majority of VCs and angel investors are men. And so, I mean, you walk in to any room going, Oh, so it's an app for women. Like I have visited a few, have talked to her in the lab. Do women need something to connect women with a woman, talk to each other? 2 (6m 46s): And like, what planet are you with? What I'm like, or like, there's been situations that I've said, I don't want to have to explain or quantify misogyny or abuse that women receive online to anybody. I'm not interested in doing that. So we wanted to get, we want it to basically bring in people that we know In along the Jenny Lake, lots of women that we know in fact. And then, yeah. So we, I mean, yeah, if you are showing that I do everything, like, you know, when you're that at the beginning stages of a startup, you do everything that needs to be done that I can physically do. The only thing I want to do is I don't code for example, 3 (7m 26s): Which is like the most expensive part though. Right? Whew. You can rack up some bills. 2 (7m 33s): Oh yeah. Yeah. That's what I is. Sometimes when some people will go off to me on Twitter or things and I'm like, do you think that this is a Hopi, this is a part of a company with serious investment. And I have people to answer to, and to sometimes random Twitter put us, and I'm not going to be answering your questions. 3 (7m 56s): A new reached out. I was actually kind of surprised that like, you're getting like some shit for this. Cause I was like, that just seems like a very needed space, right? Like men have their space, women who have their space. And now you're kind of like digitizing that by putting it into an app, I feel like that's normal. And then I was like going through your Twitter. And I was like, Oh, dang, like, she's really getting it. And I saw you reposting like death threats. And it was really blowing my mind. So when you were first starting this and you were approaching like VCs or angel investors, did anyone see this coming? Like didn't want anyone kind of warn you or you were a little bit ignorant to the S the wave of criticism you were going to get? 2 (8m 43s): No, I can't. No. I always knew that there was going to be criticism and it, and the next huge negative response to it. I didn't anticipate where the negative is going to come from that room. Yeah. It's been quite amazing actually. So I thought that it would be people, I thought it would be mainly just men and they would be a conservative, liberal, liberal men are the ones who have a problem with it. Okay. Why would you, why did you assume that it was going to be a conservative men? 2 (9m 25s): I assumed it, I suppose. Cause I was thinking in that sort of Fox news, Tucker Carlson, tin, foil hat wearing world where it would be like, Oh, this is sort of a privilege that women have with this is ridiculous. And why to women need this know sort of the more I'm like, it's the extent to a conservative, leading, leaning people. I'm sure there's been some white supremacists who have come off to me, but I don't engage with them. But the gist did the M more conservative and it, lots of dads have a very, very supportive of, a lot to dads and husbands, but say men on the left to say followed on Twitter. 2 (10m 15s): Right. And especially the journalists, comedians who I'd followed for years and this full, last year I did between it before I always stayed away from it. I was too scared because it was just such a stressful, I only started tweeting because I had to respond to just crazy lives that were being said about Google. And then we go to now in this world of having to respond to them all the time. But yeah, there was these guys that have come off to me, calling me a tough for trans folk and I'm might I really respected you and it makes you change. It will question everything that they've said. 2 (10m 57s): You're now looking at it through this prism of, okay. I think that you have, that was such an issue because I do think that there are a lot, but I think I know that there are a lot of guys out them who you would, they themselves would call themselves. Woken can progressive. A lot of them have black lives matter in their bio's. I have no problem telling a woman and a black woman that she is a trans February to us because she understands biological reality are advocates for women's rights. And he was just really the worst types of things. 2 (11m 38s): So that's been an interesting journey because I am very much like a left-leaning the role of myself. And I, you know, it was, I watched everything sort of through the tapping over the last few years, it was through that position. And then experiencing what I think is a way to be a misogynist, but called a hero. That's been mixed with it. But if you use, so is it, so you can say anything that you want to a woman right now, as long as you use the word turf. 3 (12m 12s): Right. And a lot of people don't know what that even means. Right. So is it, I didn't either. I had, I had buck angel on the podcast a few months ago. Yeah. He's wonderful. Yeah. 2 (12m 26s): He's got like a love that every time I have watched things or listened to all the things that he loves and like, I smile, like he just likes lots of her. I love him. 3 (12m 34s): Like how can anyone hate that person? I forgot what I was just going to say. Oh yeah. He was explaining to me what that meant. And I was like, I don't like that. We come up with like these weird arbitrary names for each other because of that. Why is it okay if you do it to someone who I guess you're not considered like marginalized enough anymore, right? If your, like a straight right. White woman. So that's okay. But if you come up with a name for any other group that is considered marginalized, and now that's like hate speech. So why is it not hate speech if you're doing, if the intent is that 2 (13m 10s): Completely? No, I, Jeff is 100% of misogynistic slow and it's basically the only one that's sort of allowed to be used, but just mainstream media will do the headlines, the word turf in there and be like, what are you? I mean, this is a word that is most of the time, a company with a threat to shut up or a death threat or a rape threat. And the evidence is there. It's like, I shouldn't have to explain this to anybody. You can search it. It's it's you could find it. You could confirm this and about five seconds. 3 (13m 43s): Okay. So, Oh, sorry for, so for anyone that's listening, turf is it's trans exclusive, exclusive, can you? I gave up caffeine two days ago. My brain's not working. I'll let you go. 2 (13m 55s): I'm a trans exclusionary radical feminist. 3 (13m 58s): There you go. And I don't think I've been called that yet, but I guess I can we get into like, what is a radical feminist? 2 (14m 5s): Okay. Is there a radical feminist? Okay. The first I'll preface it by saying I'm actually not even a radical feminist. I didn't hit no really that bad either radical feminist, umm, is essentially just its root feminism. So that's what the RO the word radical is that of the Latin root. So it's, it's sort of original feminism, you would say is that a pre wave, just very focused on female rights. So it's very much, you know, understanding biological sex, you know, feminism or in the sentence females. And you know, that it is against sex work, which I think is a pretty fit and not shaming sex workers as such a small shaming men treat sex workers horribly, which I think is a pretty fit position to have. 2 (14m 57s): Yeah. So I would say that of all of the things that I've read, I agree with a lot of the texts of radical feminism. I just, I'm very much in a point where I don't want any more labels. I do. I think what was a helping us, like I see sometimes as these findings, as the liberal feminist radical feminists, 3 (15m 18s): Gender equality feminists, there's a lot of money. And I'm like, okay, 2 (15m 24s): I don't think that that ultimately is doing any good, just in terms of like, obviously adhere, you know, you have your opinions and things and my beliefs of whatever you want. That's fine. But I think if we just sort of put up these labels constantly on everything, I think that kind of the problem is at the moment. 3 (15m 45s): Yeah. I completely agree. 2 (15m 48s): Okay. I did have someone in a recently on Twitter to say to me, you know, you know, you say you are against identity politics, but you do something just women. I'm like, yes, but women are women. Isn't an identity. It's not, this is where we just are. Like the most basic thing. You can be a separate people buy is sex, it's a male or female and it's not do we are, it's what we are. And it doesn't dictate really much more than that. I mean, you can be really masculine woman. You can be a really feminine man. You can develop any kind of personality and character that you want. It's just what, in terms of lots of medical things and social things, whether you're male or female does make a difference. 2 (16m 35s): There's a lot of people that are saying at the moment, you know, you can't tell whether someone's male or female by looking at the time. 3 (16m 42s): Yeah. I keep saying that to you. And I'm like, for the most 99% of the time, you absolutely can 2 (16m 49s): A hundred percent when you're walking down the street, you know, he was walking towards you. Your brain is processing that whether you're acknowledging it on a conscious level, you know, and you kind of trick your brain. No, one's walking down the street going everyone's nonbinary until they tell me otherwise it is just doesn't brand. Doesn't work like that. We have survival instincts. We have, we have inbuilt prejudice. 3 (17m 15s): Okay. So what do you think the point is of that to eliminate gender essentially? Cause that's what I see with the activists. It's mostly like abolishing the idea of feminine masculine, like everyone, like you said, his kind of to be assumed gender lists until they tell you their pronoun. 2 (17m 34s): Hmm. Well, I would say that it would actually be, if you are going for proper, the proper actual destruction of gender in a positive way, it's feminists who are doing that noise have been that's essentially what feminism has always been that, you know, you're just because you're a woman, doesn't that you have to be in a kitchen and cooking or raising children, staying at home. You don't have to wear dresses. I mean, at, in the early 19, late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds, only men were allowed to ride bicycles. It was women who had to fight for the right to be able to ride a bicycle. It was considered a masculine things. So that's essentially always been feminine, feminisms jump in and done it slowly but surely. 2 (18m 14s): And I think it's a really positive way. The activists, what they're doing at the moment. They're not saying that there are sort of trying to abolish gender so much. They are actually trying to bullish biological sex. But of course, okay. Well, first of all, that's not a completely true statement because there is no consensus of what their trying to do. Every single activist to speak to will say something completely different. So you have some that are trying to have a bullish biological sex used to have some that say that it's, there is no such thing as biological sex. You have others who say that human beings can change biological sex. None of which was true is really, really simple. If you are born female or you are born male, you will die females on a dime. 2 (18m 56s): Now that's just a fact, but how you live your life in between then is I think our, to you, I'm quite, we all have been quite libertarian and stuff like this, that someone is not harming anybody else to do what you want. If you're a man and you wanna wear a dress and makeup will power to you, I think that's fantastic that doesn't make you a woman. Great. And so that's, that's where the conflict is between feminists and trans rights activists at the moment. And then the major issue with it is, is that the people making policy are adhering to this ideology of saying that human beings can change biological sex. 2 (19m 42s): That if the man was addressed, he is a woman and that's just, it's, it's not true. And it's very dangerous for so many reasons. Part of, one of them is obviously single sex space. Is this something that women have a right to have out of necessity? It's not segregation. If I have one more person like in single sex spaces to a pothead, I will scream. 3 (20m 9s): I haven't heard that it's segregation. Yeah. And at least it hasn't come across my feed. 2 (20m 14s): It's a little, the time it'll be like us. So you do want people drinking at a different water fountains. 3 (20m 19s): It's the diamond closer to a fair comparison. So what would you say are, are like the main reasons why you think I'm like a digital space for women is important? 2 (20m 30s): Well, I think that in terms of having a single sex spaces have always been important, I think they're important for men as well. There's important for different reasons for a woman. Part of it, it'll be part of it is safety and with the freedom of expression as well. So we've had, you know, spaces with a, sometimes I was always over the negative reasons I can to be a single, since space is for domestic violence or, you know, for refuge or a rape crisis center. And then occasionally, you know, we do have to have these really great positive ones that have popped up a natural evolution for anything at the moment is it's going to go online and what are good for us? 2 (21m 12s): And we were talking about Kiva. We want it to create some things that no matter where we were in the world, you just have a strong female support network in the Palm of your hand, that was accessible at all times, which is knowing that when I was recovering from being in Hollywood and I'd had so much sexual harassment, sexual assault, and I was just, I was a shell of a person and I, my therapist would tell me, have to learn how to connect with people. Again, especially women. It's so important to have a strong female support network, because say in like Hollywood, it was isolated and very isolating place. 2 (21m 53s): The industry is isolating, bye design, lots of places that have like cities that can be very isolating. You can be around lots of people, but you're not connecting with anybody. And while there's no substitute for the like human to human contact, which we are all discovering in a pandemic that how important human contact is, the next best thing is being able to connect verbally. So yeah, that was, I think that that's a really, really important. 0 (22m 25s): Yeah, I do too. And I thought it was interesting that you said a lot of like dads are very supportive of the platform, which I didn't even think of. And of course, like, I mean, if I had a daughter and she was of age to be on like a social platform, I would, I would be a lot more comfortable with her being in a female space only versus like on Twitter, Instagram right now. Because if you open up your messages, if you're a woman, if we open up your track message, is there are gonna be a lot of pictures and videos that you don't want to see and let alone in a flake, you know, maybe that's a traumatic experience for you. Or if you're under age, there's a whole host of reasons why someone shouldn't get those kinds of messages. 0 (23m 6s): So to go in a platform where, you know, you can open those without being assaulted by some, some photo unsolicited, Dick pics. 2 (23m 16s): Yeah. That's nice. They are just, it's amazing. Isn't it? Right. 0 (23m 22s): But I don't do that. I don't like to just set snap and randomly send my bits to people. 2 (23m 29s): This is the difference between man and woman. Isn't it <inaudible> to do that now, but I, I actually have a really funny Dick pic story. This would just be a little funny anecdote. So I have received so many unsolicited Dick pics it in my life and I have saved them all like on my phone because I'm like, well, because I'm just like, if you are there, if they're unsolicited and they've said something else, like there in that file of why I still have that, buddy. Yes. If you like, if you weren't mean to me. Sure. You have the end. When I moved home from the States, my dad, like I was at my parents' house and that might have been so excited that I was back. 2 (24m 16s): I hadn't been back in like two years. I hadn't seen them. And you wanted to set up my phone like within Australia and SIM card and everything. And I was like, no, no, no, it's fine. I'll do it later. It's like, no, no, no. And I didn't even realize that he'd taken my phone. And then my mom, dad and I, we were standing there and the computers in the background and I didn't realize my dad had plugged it in. And suddenly voters are updating you take a month. Or what have you been at one of those moments? I was like, just do a turnaround, just do a turnaround. 3 (24m 49s): Oh my gosh. Mortified. 2 (24m 51s): It's certainly, that was terrible. Horrible. Yeah. We have one of our lives, a little light means a big ego is like, yeah, it's a session at work where we know the eggplant emoji, eggplant emoji. 3 (25m 6s): So a good one of my girlfriends was saying she was going to do, like, because she was doing the same thing where she was keeping a log of all of the unsolicited Dick pics she was getting. And she was like, I'm going to turn it into a coffee table book and then sell it. And then all these men are like, I wonder if that's mine. 2 (25m 22s): Yeah, no completely. I have thought of during a bit of the day, there should be something similar. There should be a coffee table book of like your like Dick pics and just like the, the, the, the messages of even just like abuse or harassment that they will just send you to. Some of, it's hilarious that you get where they'll just send you a message, just telling you how much they hate you and be like, you feel better. I okay. 3 (25m 51s): Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's like one very simple way to explain why your, why your app is needed. And then I think it was on your Twitter that you were also saying like a woman that maybe undergoes like some kind of like sexual violence. Right. And she doesn't have to explain where she's uncomfortable in a male's presence. Right. So that's like another, 2 (26m 17s): This is for me was when I returned to Australia, I've been in, I was a screenwriter in Hollywood from is 10 years. I came back here. I think even if my dad like gave me a hug, I was, I couldn't, I was, yeah, it's different. And I was just terrified. It's like a men's presence in general. And there was no reason for me to read scared of my daddy. It was just the maleness of it. And so, yeah, it is the thing that there are some people that, that might mean never understand it, but I don't think that women who have to justify it, it's also one of my things about female spaces is that I'm going to have to sit here and really live out trauma and talk about it all the time to justify one to one. 2 (27m 1s): We are all such a fun, really, really fun. It's the way you talk about some of the things is how you talk is a slightly different, how you talk about yourself in a slightly different, is there a special place where you can let down your God a bit in a way. And then we all have a little boundaries that we have in society and what we are going to share with ourselves. And it's a different kind of trust in, it was just on Giggle. It was just last week we launched a Giggle talk, which is our female only social media feed. And that sort of a hybrid of Twitter and Reddit is the user experience. Now I would sum it up and it's really cool. And it's like all of the woman who are of the first one's on there, they're a fantastic and getting to do this exhale of like, okay, let's get used to this. 2 (27m 50s): When, how often are we in situations, especially online? Well, we know that there is no men 3 (27m 57s): Never. Yeah, yeah, never. So did you start out like women only, like, or did you kind of start to like sift through that as you like developed? 2 (28m 9s): Well, so when we were developing Giggle, it was always going to be just an app for women. Always. I, I was the one who was buying to have trans women welcome. Everyone else had Giggle HQ actually didn't agree with me. Oh, interesting. Yeah, but I was, I was saying no Beck at the time. It was like, it's a 2019. Are you going to be inclusive? This is how it is. And so in February of last year we had been on the app store and Google play for only a few weeks in only a handful of select women knew about peoples. We were still testing in dining out and everything. 2 (28m 50s): And we work up one wanting to thousands of downloads, which is the trans rights activists communities in Twitter and Reddit have discovered Giggle. We had to this day and no idea how have they did M and the ones that got our own just created kill turf, PIR files. That's that was my first introduction to the work that you didn't know, because we don't have, we were developing Giggle on that. This was the inspiration from the lead up to it. I was very much in a sense a me too world. So I wasn't, I just wasn't focusing on This. Other said that it was happening. I, it hadn't entered Australia and all at that point, its really only just starting now, but there are some Mister lions you think are absolutely insane telling people that women are being called vagina owners. 2 (29m 32s): I sound ridiculous, but I'm like, this is happening. 3 (29m 35s): Oh, I see that all the time. It pisses me off. 2 (29m 38s): Okay. Is there just, Mmm. Yeah. And so I, I just, I just really, and it's my fault. I just didn't know it 'cause in my wildest nightmares, it didn't occur to me that there would be anyone out there actually saying that the concept of a woman doesn't exist. It didn't occur to me to look if that was a thing. And so when I'm in the first attack happens and we were, I, I, I went online to sort of see where it was all coming from and I stumbled across a separate over radical feminism. And I went in and asked them some things that I was still at that point very much, no, I didn't want to offend anybody. 2 (30m 24s): And I mean, these women, I mean, they were so that they were very lovely with me and patient as patient, as one can be when you are sort of exhausted by talking about this stuff that they told me and the trans rights activists were telling, they're all saying, just educate yourself. And I was like, okay, that's fair enough. So I went and started educating myself and what was happening, especially in the UK and in Canada. And then, and in the U S with the U S is a slightly different just how its almost the originator of it. But it's, it's just a slightly different how it is existing in society. I think it, and it didn't take long to realize what was happening at the feminists were telling the truth because I saw the first thing that I saw that she was just absolutely shocked by it is that lesbians with being in cold transphobes to have some bigots 'cause they won't date or sleep with self identifying women who have just men in dresses for the most part. 2 (31m 22s): Yeah. I was just, I just couldn't see, I couldn't unsee this attack on women's boundaries. So we just spent a millennia getting haven't been able to have consent and these lesbians and incidentally, it was lesbians who were the first to ever raise the lungs about all of this stuff. 3 (31m 41s): Oh really? I feel like someone else might have been, might have said that. 2 (31m 47s): Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a pretty switched on with the DOE, but yeah. I mean, no one's listening to that because of course no one listens to a lesbian woman screaming fire in a theater that is on fire. 3 (32m 1s): This sounds kind of crazy though. Right? Like, like I never would have thought we would of gotten here to where the word woman was like a bad word. Like you're not allowed to say with a woman, especially because like if you take any of the, no, you wouldn't like those, all those gender classes, like most people that sign up for those are women. Right? So a lot of the, the movements, like the movement for rights for the trans community was brought on by biological women. Right. Like they were in there. 2 (32m 28s): Okay. Well you have some that you have sort of like Judith Butler, who was a, I mean, when I say a feminist writer I'm using the woods feminist and right here in the loosest sense, both could be used. She's not very good at either thing. Yes. But she's, she is very much, I think she was in an absolute fantasy land that has absolutely no basis. In reality it seems sort of utopia that she created in her mind, but she was very much sort of it, you don't want to say that the godmother of this agenda studies sort of stuff and postmodernism where you know that you're basically, you're a woman, if you say you are and it's like, it's just the way that, I mean, that sounds great in theory to some, I suppose, but it just, it does not work in reality. 2 (33m 17s): It does not work in the world that we live in. Yeah. And so basically the F the feminists were, were a feminist and the lesbians we bring in all of this up when this was all over, we all collectively own the lesbians. It's a big LA like a nice drink because they have been doing the work to preserve women's rights, you know, and, and just so much scrutiny and attack. The other thing that I saw was women, African women who use Twitter or on the platforms, uhm, to raise the awareness and to stop female genital mutilation being caught transcripts and Tufts because they use the word female because they say that, you know, that it's bigger than this is not that this is not something, the vagina isn't necessarily female. 2 (34m 11s): So, and it was just, just nonsense and to be attacking, it actually just happened the other day. An amazing, that's just the most gorgeous inside and a woman in the UK. He, but I think she's originally from Somalia, but I could be wrong about that. She has a huge platform on Twitter and she just works online. And in real life, she goes around to schools in the UK talking about female genital mutilation, bringing awareness to it. These are the ways we can stop at this is how to help. What she does is that she is a survivor, a record herself so that she can she get she, I mean, she knows what she's talking about and she knows, you know, the depths of what can happen to be. 2 (34m 57s): And when you're just born of woman to see them call like attacked all of these activists and Asha non-sense the other day she was saying, I love everyone. That you'd be who you are. You are totally fine. I'm the one I'm talking about. Women and girls do not bring this up here. These and these are two very different things and she's right. And this stuff is being completely ignored. Say the people in Palo, like I ain't are for the most part, really care about random trolls on Twitter for young people. There's a lot of young people who are born into this that I feel really sorry for them. 2 (35m 38s): They've been really misled by, by adults, by whether it's a righteous or university professors or lectures they've, they've been lied to. But so I have a problem with those people are the ones that, that are doing the lines to begin with in telling people, and this is true. I mean there's, and then there's also the transitioning women. So they got caught up as teenagers in this thinking in the midst of not all, but a lot of them, a lesbian women who they were told because you know that they were more masculine, sort of what we would know as I have a tomboy or a Butch lesbian, we men, they started taking testosterone and they've had mastectomies. 2 (36m 23s): They have, some of them have had hysterectomies. So now they are in their early twenties. And then the transitioning because no, they are not transgender. They're just gender non-conforming lesbians. And we get attacked by trans activists, actual transsexual people. Most of them prefer to be called transsexual people. If they are on the side of women in biological reality, they are under attack. And this is, this is just not a movement about equality. It's about adherence to ideology. And that right now, and its women mainly that are in that, like in terms of men or women, it's women who are under attack and the sensitive a woman stands up and says biological sex is real. 2 (37m 9s): No one only when, if you want a woman, I mean, she faces potential of losing her job. She, the attacks you're going to get, whereas men don't get as many attacks. I did a thing on Twitter in a long ago. I said that any men being sent death threats, if it is there was one. 0 (37m 28s): So why do you think so many people are falling into this? Like why? Because I see a lot of women, like I know you've mentioned a lot of men are getting involved with it, but I think more women tend to get very like, like defensive and like attacky about anyone that doesn't like, doesn't drink the Kool-Aid, right? Like if you acknowledge it, biological sex is real. Then you must be like some kind of IST or <inaudible> or whatever. Right? Like they give you a name, but it's almost like denouncing all of the, all of the strides that women have made, right? Like with, like you said, we couldn't ride bicycles. We couldn't vote. We couldn't have credit cards. 0 (38m 9s): All of these things have to take for granted. 2 (38m 11s): I was researching this and my life in Australia. My mom could not get a possible on her own until 1983. Oh my gosh. She had to have either father or husband signed the forms. Oh my gosh. Well, I was born in 84. 0 (38m 34s): Wow. Like 4 (38m 36s): That's just 2 (38m 37s): Flowing. Show me how recent it was. And that's mind blowing how recent it is. I mean, good luck for Saudi Arabian woman trying to get a possible. And it's impossible. You know, this is happening right now. We live like I have, I did have one, one person. Tell me one time that we have a Twitter that they are like trans woman don't even have rights in Saudi Arabia. It was that honey women, for instance, will be revealed. No one has read in Saudi Arabia. This is a trans issues in any way, shape or form. So why, why a woman? Okay. I have a few theories of this. There is in a way because the gender issue and the trans issue of say the T issue is attached to the LGB community. 2 (39m 23s): So there's the next thing onto that, even though it's actually quite in a position and there's now the different LGBT organizations that are popping up now that is separated from it because you know, homosexuality is defined and heterosexuality that you have a defined in reality where biological sex is real. And that's why the hands on attracted to men in dresses, there are attracted to the biology of a woman. So there's a bit of an overcorrection because you know, as society, how horrible society has been to homosexual people for all over, you don't want to make the same mistakes. 2 (40m 3s): So something comes along and it seems similar. You, you sort of overcorrection, you overly good. Like that's not a pest to keep these people from who they have, like gay people. What, that's one thing which so a really good intentions behind it. And of course you don't want to prosecute somebody for being trans in any way, shape or form. They are these people that there are human beings then okay. Now the two sort of, I maybe a bit more controversial, my own sort of theories. One is I can picture a person who's like, okay, I'm going to basically start. 2 (40m 43s): What is, this is a very, very misogynistic movement. I think it's a little bit of punishment for me too, because we were so organized and really made movies with that. And there's a lot of men who didn't like that. And so I think a lot of the really powerful men who were involved in this current gender, ideal achievement movement, I don't think they care at all about trans people that I think that they love the way, the fact that they can be a misogynist and coherence called the hero for it. So if I was a man doing involved in that movement and had power in it, the first thing I would do is get some women on the side Brings because that then it's not, you know, you, you, they have a, an argument back to when you say that some of the movement and not have to take any agency or away from women or the fact that we can think of them ourselves or anything that completely undressed. 2 (41m 42s): Obviously we can. I understand that. However, I do think that there are some women involved in this. We are in a bit of a, an abusive relationship with it. I look at it differently to how I look at men who had all of this stuff. The men, because in this gender ideology stuff, men's rights. Don't change it. All men have not under threat by this. Their words are not under threat. We're not walking around calling and penis owners or <inaudible> or sperm Havers. They're just men. The sport's a completely fine because there's no trans man is going to win. No one is worried about that. And a lot of the times they cannot compete because of the testis during levels are considered dripping. 2 (42m 22s): So, and no one was even thinking about trans men's rights. So that's a part of the sexism and the whole thing. So men, nothing changes for men in this whole situation, but it does for women as a sport, which male biological males will be women. Most of the time, like I'm two of them, 98% of the time with it. The statistics is a very, very Hi worryingly. Hi, umm, and then our space is, and then now was the attack on the language to use, to describe the females women like the fact that I even had to say females. So often I say women still. I'm not saying that, but saying, but I'm just thinking as I say females, because I just don't want the confusion because it's so frustrating, but then I'm like I'm playing into it on I, but so I think that they're, there are some women who have, yeah, that thinks that their doing a really good thing and have been sold this idea. 2 (43m 26s): And I think manipulated in this idea that there are these like nasty Tufts who are just as so hateful and horrible and you should hate them. And they want to know that they are part of the patriarchy and they want to oppress people. Is it absolutely no way 0 (43m 43s): They call you? Like the pick me girls is what they say now. So like I think I, yeah, so like I took a gender studies class back in college and I got so swept up in all of it. And it was like, this is horrible. You know, these people are under attack. They need our help. And I was, you know, like very much like trans rights, blah, blah, blah. And I mean, I've never lived anywhere. Thankfully that's like very, you know, backwards or dated like everywhere I've ever lived is like very accepting. I've, you know, I've trans friends, I've gay friends all over. Right. And everyone is treated just fine. Where, where I live. I know that it's not the case for everybody, but, but then you started to see what the activists are pushing and that's like a very different narrative, right? 0 (44m 25s): It's not, it's not for equal rights. It's for like special treatment. And it's for me at the it's at the cost of women. So if you say that they call you a pick me a girl, which means that you're just trying to gain acceptance and approval from men by siding with, instead of with women, 2 (44m 48s): This is the thing. And I say, this is all the time to them because they're there. I don't, I'm not angry or hateful or frustrated by the women who support this gender ideology. First of all, if a woman can that be can support whatever she wants, she doesn't have to agree with me. So that's fine. I do think that there'll be a tipping point when they will realize that what they are supporting is against their own rights. That was one of the things with this whole concept of like turf to evil. Like did people really think that like women and Wesleyan women and black women all woke up one morning and went, yeah, I'm going to be a bigot towards is one group of people know like, of course not like, what do you think lesbians who know a thing or two about being, trying to get accepted by society. 2 (45m 44s): We went no fee, buddy. It's coming from a fact based real place. And that's what I was. One of the things is easy in a sense to find all of this stuff is it's easy. When you have facts on your side, sometimes it's very boring fighting it because it just doesn't change. And it just men and women exists. There's only two sexes. It's all there is no. 0 (46m 4s): Well the science on it, it's it's being quieted. Right. And then those people that speak out are kind of being deep platform. So even though like the science does like prove as it stands that there are two sexes, right? And they could, they're not fluid. You're still, you can still lose everything you have over it. 2 (46m 22s): No, I don't have to have babies and made it. This is just the end of story. Whether or not 0 (46m 29s): I actually seen, I've seen some articles that are trying, they say that the science is close to be able to, or not close their, trying to get it close for a biological man to carry a baby. And for me, I, first of all, I don't probably think in our lifetime also as a mother, I find that to be wildly selfish because your instincts are to do any by like any means possible to keep that child safe, whatever is best for that child is what you do. Not what's best for me. Right. Okay. So just because I want to carry a baby, if I'm not supposed to carry a baby and that is going to increase harm or development for them, I'm not going to do it. 0 (47m 16s): Right. So I mean, I breastfed for over a year that sucked it. Wasn't great. It wasn't the best for me or my schedule, but it was best for the baby. So you make all these sacrifices on yourself for your child. So when I see stuff 3 (47m 30s): Like I think buck posted on his Twitter, they came up with like some way that the logical men or is to creating, I don't, it's not milk, but its something to feed the baby. And I was like, that's so selfish. Like the reason I could've popped a bottle and the microwave called it a day and saved myself so much pain in time, but that's not what's best for the baby. So this brand new substance it's coming out of you that's bio-engineered do you want do that? Is that 2 (48m 4s): I don't want to lead the test case of that. That's for sure. But no. And you should always be, I see these articles about like that males will be able to have children. Where are the wounds coming from? 3 (48m 16s): I guess there's synthetic unless they're not 2 (48m 19s): Okay. That would be the best case scenario. Wouldn't it? Because the only other place that they can come from is real life women. No, I don't want babies born in synthetic worms to males I think. Yeah. I think that's incredibly selfish. 3 (48m 39s): There was just something really magical that happens like throughout the gestational period. Like I, I know like people that haven't experienced it, they are going to think bullshit. But the moment I realized I was pregnant, like I knew I was having a boy, there was this connection. Yeah. Like I like knew him before he came out and he is exactly who I pictured while he was in my belly. Like the same like personnel, 2 (49m 7s): But my dog, a dog mom, I don't be to have a baby. 3 (49m 15s): I always use to compare my dog. And I was like this guy and be like kind of similar because I really love my dog, but it's this whole other thing. And when you like talk to the baby in the belly and you are rubbing your belly and you have these like moments that you're just like, you're one consciousness almost rightly sure you might be able to create someone in a lab in a synthetic uterus. But like again, what's best for that. What's best for that. He did that 2 (49m 42s): In the spirit, like growing human being. Who's got it all in life too late because it is, you know, when your having a baby, you're very much aware that you are creating a human being is going to solve it's own life beyond you. So if you are reading, if you are doing this because of your own sort of, you know, this is something you're trying to fill a void of some sort of validation or I think it's, I think it's incredibly odd it. And then I also think of, you know, there are a lot of women who are in fertile and it's heartbreaking for them. I pretty much am. I have been Dmitri years as we have endometriosis impulses to be there for a reason to our family. 2 (50m 25s): Oh no, I'm going paint most of the time. And so the chances of me having a baby it's slim to none. And fortunately I don't want to run. I want to have my instinct is to adopt eventually, but I would love to have children, but yeah, I've just never had the biological edge. Even when I was a teenager, I used to say it and everyone would say, when you get your late twenties, early thirties, it'll kick in. And I'm like, I'm 36 now. And I'm just violet school club to just pull her over to a five plus a midnight. But when I think of the women who just trying so hard to have a baby and they, and they click with your IVF and all of these other things that we have created as ways to help fertility and then some, they come, I have family members who couldn't and we didn't have children that we were, that science would prioritize in any way of males having babies. 2 (51m 24s): I think that that's very insulting to women. 3 (51m 30s): I think it's a catchy headline, June and bean. 2 (51m 34s): I do too. I don't think that there's any, I can't imagine that anyone is that going? You know what, no, I'm not going to work on the curing cancer. This is where my, my efforts going to go. I have the way, I don't think that any, any serious scientist is doing anything on it. Not for that reason. Anyway, 3 (51m 52s): Right now, for that reason, I think you have to always follow the money, right? You, you want to hope that everyone has good intentions or they're doing things for the best reason, but when it comes to like any kind of activist group, for the most part, it seems to be really fueled and get it's like life force from a negative source. Like it's like usually like anger hate or like vengeance of sorts. Like when you talk about people that detransition like, that's some scary stuff like Apple, Abigail, Shrier, you know, uses her platform to bring a lot of information on that. And she's constantly under attack, but I'm like, you can't ignore these women that just ruined their body. 3 (52m 32s): Like not talking to us aesthetically. Right. I'm talking like they cannot have children. Like they may have, some of them might not be able to orgasm again. Right? Like, yeah, this isn't the same. That's a very big deal. Their bone loss, all of these things that we just try it. And we just say like, no, let's not listen to them. Right. They don't have anything valuable to share. 2 (52m 54s): Well, completely ignored. You should have actually I can recommend, like I know of some absolutely amazing D transitioning women and you should, you should have one on your ship because they do it would, they are, we really should be elevating their voices because they know so much, so much information about how kids are getting into this, what activists are actually saying behind closed doors. And when there's so many of them who talk about how it older men preying on that and really yes, with an, so the two are different situations. 2 (53m 36s): There's just mails. But in actual fact, just men, straight men who will be the grooming them or be sort of part of it. I don't want you to have to take the words that are in their mouth or, or anything. But then there's also older trans women who will be the dominant one in the relationship. And you, and you say that you have these young questioning trans men and these older trans women and these D transitioning women are now saying, well, I realized that I was still being dominated by someone who's been socialized as a male. So you take away all of the gender studies thing, everything, all of this stuff that say they all pedal and no someones had a socialized male, female, but buck angel talks about it all the time. 2 (54m 27s): But for social was raised female. That's what he says that that's why, what makes him a great man or men should be raised as we, as women. And yeah, I mean, that's why I think one of the reasons why he's so awesome, his perspective, he knows what it's like to walk down the street as a woman. He knows what it's like to work down the street and be perceived as a man. He has such a unique perspective in that. 0 (54m 50s): Absolutely. And then he was like the first one, like to really do a full medical transition. And you know, he was living in this life as a lesbian, as a Butch lesbian in a time where like that wasn't as, as acceptable as it is today. So it could of been like a lot more dangerous, like, and then to attack someone like that, he was disinvited from a medical conference. Actually last I talked to him and we're like, this is a medical information that could save like in a real trans person's love or change their mind. Right? Like if they find out certain information, maybe that's too much for them. And they'll just do other means of, of passing if you will. 0 (55m 31s): But to silence anyone's voice, that's truly experienced these things to me as a little bit alarming. And what's also curious is like, you don't see boys aren't really being talked about right now. So why is it like everyone's like going after the young girls? I find that curious. 2 (55m 48s): Yes. I suppose I get that 0 (55m 53s): Just like their psyche, maybe because with this stuff with Abigail is work. It was like up 3000%, four people for, for a thousand. Yeah. Girls that were now identifying as boys. 2 (56m 7s): 'cause, it's the aberration of it because the diagnostic history of gender dysphoria has always involved young boys and who most grow out of it as she says, but this is what is happening with girls is so clearly a social. And, and, and I get it to a point like what young girls doesn't have body image issues, whether it's inherently or it's because of this, especially now. I mean, I, I can't even fathom being a young girl now in this Instagram world, I must be terrifying. But when I was 15, 16, 17, I had an eating disorder. I had, I had a body dysmorphia. 2 (56m 50s): I'm a little like slight go now take 10 kilos away from me. That's and I like to, when I look at myself now that I ever thought that I was fat is absurd to me or in my mind, it wasn't in reality. It was a lot of very Similac, but lots of similarities between the body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. 3 (57m 15s): Okay. And it's just like, maybe like the fact that you're like uncomfortable now means that you must be in the wrong body or something like that. 2 (57m 21s): Yeah. Because like, we're not saying to young Goodman, no one is saying to an anorexic go like, let's give you a lot. The section you'll be considered an evil madman. So why are we saying to like 16, 17 year old girls? Let's give you a mastectomy? Just no, like, because I think like once you're an adult and especially in the age of 25, like that brains don't stop developing until they're 25. So once you're over 25 To be like, it's your body. I mean, if you, if you feel like, if you're, if you feel that you'll have to be better, if you get rid of your penis, Apache, that's how you went to live. 2 (58m 2s): It doesn't have to make you a woman. But if that makes your life more comfortable, I have no problem with it. Or if you like remove her breasts, okay. That, that can help you not gonna make you a man. So I think it's the lying to people. And that's what a lot of detransition to say is that they, they were transitioning. Then they realized I'm never going to be a man. I'm never going to be considered a man. And that is one of the things that when we were constantly told, like this whole trans women to women and you have to treat them like women, first of all, I'm like, how, how does one treat women? I don't think you wanted to be treated like a woman. And it was like, if I walk into a meeting full of men, which I had to do, if I have walked in and said, my pronouns are he and him, I'm a man, not a single one of them is going to treat me like a man. 3 (58m 51s): So 2 (58m 53s): I think that it's just this thing of like, lets just do a line to people. If we actually just talk about all of this stuff and reality, we can, we can really make some changes that are really good of which is celebrating gender nonconforming people. That's what we know that think tastic. We could also create safe spaces for trans women and trans men, which I needed. I think I'm all for a third or fourth bathroom option. I think this is stuff, especially in the developed world where this is prevalent. We can do this stuff. It's not, not an issue, but we just gotta work together with it. And it's always my thing with, with trans people always say, when they are attacking me, I'm like, I try to explain to them the feminists who are on your side, we want you to be who you want to be. 2 (59m 45s): We're totally fine with that. We want you to be safe. We just want it all based in reality. And that you understand that you can't change your biological sex. That's what it comes down too. Because of how much that affects women. 0 (59m 58s): 100%. Are you worried at all about like losing your, like losing your app, getting removed from the app store or losing your hosting or anything like that? 2 (1h 0m 9s): Okay. A few reasons. One is we are, is an inclusive, essentially it's inclusive as one can possibly be. I mean, with this, the other thing was when we are in touch with being transferred, we call trans exclusionary, trans identifying female as a welcome and Google. It's just males, if any, it's the other thing as well that people seem to forget. There's lots of apps for different demographics of people and we've all existed and gotten all of our lives pretty well. And knowing that grinder is out there and there's like a, it's not, I've never been like, Oh, a grinder has to include me. 2 (1h 0m 54s): No, we know exactly what was born and that's fine. There's apps based for dating based, based solely on religion. There's a Jewish dating apps is a Muslim dating apps, a Christian dating apps. So to do anything for like, and go after a female app, you would then have to look at and you'd have to apply to all of you or the apps that are out there. And then in terms of our like hosting and stuff like that, we were very small. But having that sort of stuff as well to say, 0 (1h 1m 27s): Okay, good, good. Yeah. Cause he's you don't really think about that until you saw what happened with parlor. When that guy had taken. I think it might be back up. I haven't checked, but, 2 (1h 1m 38s): And that's the way I think I haven't checked must be days. Yeah we have. So I, like, I always say this to people and especially like that, there'll be, sometimes there'll be like tic men who come off to me and they, they talked to me and they treat me, in fact they think I coded Giggle and I'm like, never, I don't even talk to the Curtis. Most of the time my dad was like Giggle, he's out intern he's intern ferry because he understands tech language. I do know if you put me in a room talking to the coders who's, I mean, we speak completely, completely different languages to each other and they understand my colorfulness, but I don't understand their completely dry language. And we're like must be a different species. 2 (1h 2m 19s): And so my dad is the one who explained who are project managers to them and work with them every day because he's the filter that I go through and he knows how to filter the lunacy that I go on about. So I didn't code it. I also, I didn't write the algorithm. I'm not a math scientist. I wanted to create an app for women. And then I found the amazing people who could help make that happen. And it's just so lucky that it, a friend of my dad's actually is a backend, an algorithm build a tacky. 2 (1h 3m 6s): Yeah. And it's there. And he does a lot of that. And he was when we were working out, instead of, you know, you've got to work out, obviously what the app is going to be, but then you've got to work out how you're going to actually build it and map all of that out. And he made some absolutely brilliant decisions along the way of that, that, so for example, the problem with co with Palo with a big issue was, is when Amazon web services drop them. It's because you can, when you're doing your backend and you can use Amazon's code, all of that sort of stuff. So then you've used all of that. That's going to change sort of the relationship or what the control they have over your platform. We don't have that. Okay. 2 (1h 3m 47s): Yeah. 0 (1h 3m 47s): Yeah. Cause that's like, that's a lot of control, right? Cause it's like, well, private companies can do what they want unless it goes against the narrative because I would assume a lot of people that are yelling at you were probably cheering when Trump got booted off to him. 2 (1h 4m 2s): Yes. 100%. Yes I had, there was some of the other day that like transmitted, he did a post in tagging In Apple support saying that should be removed if it does, they have to say it. And two things, one I'm able to, I do step in and have the conversation and say like, know that there are apps for trans people <inaudible> was three biggest ones. There's Tamy Ts. And I think one's just called straight trans. Mm. They named it anything other than what, what it is. So they would have to remove them. And no, I was completely is what I think it's fantastic. That is actually what is needed. I think trans people should be able to connect. 2 (1h 4m 44s): There are different experiences in different, such a unique journey that I'm never going to be able to comprehend. And then also we have, I have some just a met on through Twitter, like the buck angel and so many of the amazing transgender people who come in and, and Support and put some Charles in their place when they come off to me, which I'm just forever grateful. There is one she's asked to be a transsexual woman. So we always do, my name is Naya. I think she was in Scotland. One of the funniest people I've ever met and whatever, it's always like coming after me. And while I was just like, nah, can you please jump in here? 2 (1h 5m 25s): And she'll do that. And she's just like, she was like my little trans fairy who comes in like that tells people like, Oh no, this is how it is. And, but she gets so much hate and, and blocked by that someone will call me anti-trans and then she will come in and say no. And she was not, I I'm 30 years into being my, into my transition. I know what I'm talking about. And then the person will block her. 3 (1h 5m 49s): But do you think that they are actually the people that are yelling at everyone? Are they actually part of that community or they are just jumping in and trying to claim it? 2 (1h 5m 58s): Well, as I said, so when you've got to say, if it's just like a little random Twitter troll, I don't really care. But like say yesterday it was a journalist that called me anti trans. And so Naya jumped into what, how dare you say that, then that journalist blocked Naya. I don't like that you have your blocking her or you're not listening to her. And she just has a different perspective. She is a genius. It's a different opinion. And this is an adhere to some of the dogma that you are, she was still trends if that's the right kinds though. Yeah. But it's like, if we're going for trans rights here and trans rights or human rights, isn't part of the right of trans rights to be able to think of yourself and be there in person and not adhere to ideology. 2 (1h 6m 43s): I mean, I think that that's a pretty basic, right, because this is one of the things that we were just going back to what we were saying earlier, when you, with the trans rights thing, trans people have rights. They are very, very protected. 3 (1h 6m 57s): I don't know anyone that's like saying like, let's take those away. Like, I don't know. Maybe I live in a bubble, but I don't see that 2 (1h 7m 4s): The only rights they don't have universally to be in women's including in a women's spaces and women's sport it's changed right. With the executive order or in the U S in terms of Support, which are like, I'm like Biden, I'm on your side. And that's the first thing you do. It's just, it's devastating. 3 (1h 7m 24s): Yeah. It's like all of the things you could of done when you first got in there, like that was pressing. And like, again, we were like ignoring we're ignoring data. Like the, there is enough scientific evidence that the average couch, potato man, his grip strength is more than that. Of a, one of a woman that his like in the Olympics, like an Olympic athlete, athletic woman. Yeah. 2 (1h 7m 49s): Oh, that's what a man. Yeah. Stand a chance that there's like, literally, but that's why we're physically scared of them because you can't have a guy who was a, nothing, but watch Netflix for five years and he's going to be stronger, like Run every day and run about eight Coleman a day, which is in miles, not much of a five, four or five months. That's a lot. Yeah. So I do it. It's like my one hour a day where like, I didn't have to think about Giggle and to talk about Giggle. I'll have my sanity hour, but I noticed it when I'm running. 2 (1h 8m 30s): So I've been, I've been a fit for my life. There's a lot of people that men in the seventies who are all over the past and I don't want to slow, like I can sort of do like eight kilometers in like 45 minutes. This is not, it's not slow. And yeah, like I had one yesterday and it was like, ah, grandpa. Yeah. None of them are in a different Australia. It's a different, every everything about it. And it's so unfair because when you think of things, especially in America with how the education system is set up and everything, how many women, especially in underprivileged situations use athletic scholarships to change their lives. 2 (1h 9m 17s): We're not going, no, there's just, there's going to be so many cases, but no matter how hard they try, they can't be met. And there's this narrative at the moment, all of this will just make women train harder. And I'm like, are you kidding me? You need to go and tell Serena to her face that she doesn't train hard enough. That's what's been the problem with women athletes. They're just not trying hard enough. 3 (1h 9m 40s): Yeah. She was like a beast, have a woman to like, if there was ever like the epitome of like the athletic, like super power woman, right. That it will be her, it would be her. 2 (1h 9m 53s): Okay. And I think that he cannot beat them In. Yeah. I was like, 3 (1h 9m 56s): And to say, they've, they've done that. Right? Like, they've done like a studies or they actually tried it, but 2 (1h 10m 1s): You are. And Venus played a doubles match years ago against, I can't remember who it was against, but they lost like six one, six one. Yeah. It is. 3 (1h 10m 11s): It doesn't get more powerful than, than, than, than then those women. Yeah. So if they can't do it, we're all doomed. 2 (1h 10m 19s): Exactly. Like even, but I've the Australian open. It was just done. And that was one of the things that I was focusing on when I was watching. It is like the speed of the menses was the women's serves. There's like a manual do a seven it's like 220 kilometers an hour. And a woman like Serena was doing lunch and it was at 179. Well, it's completely different when you are turning that. And then you got the strength behind it as well. Like, I mean, if someone was like, well, we got to, if Sabrina was serving at me, I mean, I would be petrified, but I mean, it'd be, it's, it's just nonsense. Do you think that, that there are these differences and I think the difference is should be celebrated because we're not saying one is better or worse. 2 (1h 11m 3s): It's not like there for the better or women or weaker athletically or physically. So we, it was no, which is different. That's like the cool, interesting thing. We're just different. We're better at other things, but being human. 3 (1h 11m 22s): Yeah. I, I don't like the, the push that like every, like the whole equal outcome, like that's essentially what the argument is, right? Like it's like equal outcome. They have, they don't want equal opportunity because I mean, there's other, like you could either have the biological women that agreed to, to play the sport, knowing that this person is trans. Right. And that's their right. If they want to try to compete, go for it. But I do feel like that needs to be disclosed, especially if it's in like a, a physical contact sport followed. 2 (1h 11m 54s): Okay. We're just about it. I think that like rules are rules. We lived in a society, but you have to have rules and you can't move in decisions all of the time. Or you can't be thinking ahead on which role or how does this apply here? What's the technicality of it. I think that if it, no one was saying trans people that can't play a sport. Right. And just have to put it in the sex part of that. You have a bone, that's it, all of which you exist in. So, you know, there's a case of, in Australia with a trans woman in AFL player, who's like six foot three, I think. And like 200 something pounds in one of the ones woman's leg has been broken. So to follow which injuries happened in sport, no matter what. 2 (1h 12m 37s): And then a female on female sport injuries can happen. So it's not like I'm saying this is a unique to that situation, obviously not. But when you see pictures, this, this male, just how it was over everybody else, it's, it's just quite crazy. You're a bigot. If you bring that up and the number one, who's the woman that miss out on a spot on the team. So when I see the podiums, there is a, what's a picture and you'll see, and that is exciting to go around. And that is happening more and more. And you'll have the trans woman in the first position. And then the second and third, and I feel sorry for those women, but I also feel really sorry for the women that came forth. 2 (1h 13m 21s): I think it's just, I think it's wrong really, really wrong. And especially that for someone like Biden for that to be the F one of the basic, like the first thing was the first day, 3 (1h 13m 32s): Well, he kind of, he did kind of say that's what he was going to do, like, okay, 2 (1h 13m 35s): Okay. Yeah. I just thought of, I heard that it was a campaign slogan. It's also said he was going to give people thousands of dollars to live on, and that hasn't happened. So, I mean, they do it doesn't, it doesn't come into fruition. So the fact that, that one did, I think that was really, really disappointing. And I've talked to people here in Australia about it, because we say to them about what are the institutions of being captured by it and the ones who work there, who don't adhere to it. And they say that it's a very clear if a woman is going to have to be injured or die before people will take notice and meet 0 (1h 14m 13s): Perhaps. But there was, I would say that the thing that sparked a lot of the conversation when it came to sports was Joe Rogan was talking about Fallon Fox. And I mean, Fallon was wrecking people like absolutely wrecking women, like to be an uncomfortable level. And there are still not like he's really like the loudest person about that. I haven't seen that. A lot of people that are like, you know what, maybe we shouldn't do this. This isn't really okay. 2 (1h 14m 40s): So I think that the reason why people don't start with that one is that they're like, Oh, it's a violent anyway, but it was just absurd. 0 (1h 14m 51s): Yeah. 2 (1h 14m 53s): I have watched it. I've seen it. I mean, I've seen it in how you could be any way in person and watched that and go all this is good. And he was just a moron, but I do wonder if it will take something like, I don't know, tangible, or what was that like? I mean swimming, but you know, men that men have fostered swimming. I faster in everything, everything for you, 0 (1h 15m 26s): It's like a muscle fiber or a situation. But I think like you said earlier, we tend to over correct. And I think unfortunately there is going to be a lot of nonsense before we, again over-correct and the people that are going to probably suffer those consequences are the people that were allegedly, supposedly trying to protect. Right. And it's just the nature of the beast. 2 (1h 15m 48s): I do think that this is an overcorrection, but I've also made the point that, you know what, one group never gets an overcorrection women. We tried this, I have a correction should have a vote that they stopped it before it could be in there for correction with me too. Cause I was nervous part of me to that. I was critical of like, you know, it was 0 (1h 16m 7s): All about a lot of it, but 2 (1h 16m 9s): I read it nautical like in a defensive, as he's in this area. For example, I don't think that was a me-too situation at all. I dated an LA for eight years. I know what a cesspool that places. And I know what a bad date or a very bad date Nelly is. Like that was one of them M to be completely fine. But yeah, I, this whole thing, I think really stems from that. And I don't think it's a coincidence that this has happened to women after that. And I don't think that they'll ever be like an overcorrection for women after this. It'll be like, I would, you fine. You can have your word back happy now that's what we'll have to just get on with it. 2 (1h 16m 51s): But yeah, the me too thing. I'm okay with it being, I have these conversations, especially with guys all the time. I mean, I, I missed seven different men in Hollywood that I could easily meet you. I never have how I don't want to be associated with them. I don't want my name associated with them. A name that it's ever brought up to get. Some of them are some of these men of people, names of people in there, some are not, you know, that there's lots of them and you don't say anything. 0 (1h 17m 27s): Yeah. The problem, the problem is is it turned from something that was, that was real and had enough evidence behind it and like needed to be fixed. And then somehow that switched to believe all women with no evidence with no, like, like you have the character of someone write like the longevity of like who they've been in society for 30, 40 years. Like that totally gets discounted. So we could have a standup guy who's married with kids who was never, you know, done a single thing against someone else violently or sexually. And then one person is like, I'm just gonna send a tweet. And then that per, that man's life gets imploded. 0 (1h 18m 9s): There's no like trial. I have like very much against that. Like its supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. You do. 2 (1h 18m 16s): Yeah, I do. And I do agree with you. I think that its more complicated than that. That because first of all, no one believes all of them. It never happened and you are. And so you often need more than one woman saying the same thing about a man for it to be believed. One of the guys that did to me, I mean he's a Hollywood guy. Mary's the kids. He like I'm talking Hi. Like we were having a drinks meeting hands up, Scott just absolutely disgusting behavior. 2 (1h 18m 57s): If I was to tweet it out, it would be, that would be the reaction he's married. He's got kids. What are you talking about? No one's ever made any allegations against him or I'd be like, Ooh, but he didn't do this. This is the thing I don't want that. I don't want to do it. I do, I do it. So, you know, I'd say like, you know, you take bill Cosby, it looks like it was 50 women. How the Weinstein, my friend was his longest serving female assistant. And so I, she didn't know he was raping, but she knew how horrible he was. Everyone knew how horrible he was. That was like, like Hollywood, worst secret. Like he was notorious for being so horrible. 2 (1h 19m 38s): He the first staples it and this assistance office equipment and scream at them and, and mind control and a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible man. 0 (1h 19m 51s): Right. But then the overcorrection though is like, when you look at young boys that are on college campuses and then you have like the title nine situation where a girl can just say like maybe it's drunk sex. And then she regrets it. And she was like, I was assaulted that boy doesn't get a, he doesn't get to know the QS to him. And he gets booted from school. Like that's where, it's a word we started. Where are we are now? 2 (1h 20m 16s): Yeah, I completely threw it was stuff like that because we have to end as women. It's really important that we understand the difference between us making a mistake. We've all drunkenly hooked up with someone and working up in the next morning, gone up shit. I was sober. So we all made mistakes. That's totally fine in that quite that way you can't yet you can't then go in and abuse something and call every unwanted thing in like that sexual assault. But yeah, that that's, I, I completely agree with you there because yeah, I do agree that there and I understand that there's some men who had terrified to even approach to a woman in a positive flirtatious way because it was misconstrued and it's like, Oh no, this is human interaction. 2 (1h 21m 10s): We want to be able to have be approached by a nice man who thinks we're nice and what is going to treat us well, we need more of that. We weren't scared them away for 100%. Yeah. And I know, I agree with you that that's yes, that that is wrong. But I mean, this should be this. It should just be, I think it should, or shouldn't be that hard or that this controversial when talking about like rape will sexual assault, I think that it was handled better across the board. That would be different, but because it's so handled so badly, we have a situation in Australia right now, or this girl who worked at parliament house. 2 (1h 21m 54s): It could the government care and a colleague, they were at a work event. They had drinks. They, he, they were going home together. They were both drunk or she was, I'm not sure if he was, but she was drunk. He said, I've just got to stop in the office. They did. And she passed out on the couch, I think, is the story. And then woke up and he was having sex with her. And now it's this huge, big political scandal because which politicians knew about it, who didn't answer it is, is this poll goal is going through everyone's worst nightmare right now. And there is a lot of all, she was drunk and the way, you know, there's a difference between drunkenly hooking up with a guy and drunkenly passing out of his couch when you wake up and he was having sex with you to be very different animals. 2 (1h 22m 40s): Yeah. So that's the thing where it was going to be clear about stuff like that. And yeah, I mean, it's all ridiculous, Candice, all of it and all that 0 (1h 22m 51s): It all is, but it led you to, you know, creating like this really needed in form. And probably if you didn't go through all of this stuff and Hollywood, when you were a screenwriter there, then maybe you wouldn't of been inspired to do all of this 2 (1h 23m 4s): One a hundred percent. I wrote about strong, independent women. And I always had a very, like, it's a feminist female centric message. They usually is like romantic comedies where by the end of the go like realized the relationship was with herself. None of them have gotten made. Cause I swear like male exists. I sell them. But like male executives and directors would turn to the last page, 10 pages and do this and the men on this end to paint the airplanes. But yeah, I've had horrible experiences and Hollywood night, it took lot to recover from, but they all led me to here. And I, when I had realized I had to give up screenwriting and I'll never ever write for money ever again, I came, became a piece with it when I, when we created Giggle because it was actually doing something for women in a much more constructive way than writing. 2 (1h 23m 56s): But I'm, I'm very grateful in that respect. I wouldn't change it. And you know, and now we have this recognized growing Giggle community and the women all over the world. Like that's my favorite plot is that when there'll be women in there and it's like, I'm in Pakistan or I'm in Spain and like, Hi, I'm like, I'm going to Shirley or I can't believe we know about Google is so cool. 0 (1h 24m 19s): Okay. Yeah. That's gotta be awesome. And again, like with all the negative negativity you're getting from activists is, I mean, I've seen you on a lot of really big podcasts. So again like silver lining there. Right. So they're giving you a bunch of advertising essentially. 2 (1h 24m 33s): Yeah. It's like a double-edged sword because when you, you get like all of the good stuff, like all of it was like down and let them go. It's discovering Giggle when starting to use it in that. That's obviously awesome. That's the goal. And then you have the attacks happening at the same time that I'm used to it now 0 (1h 24m 50s): <inaudible> just must be more resilient 2 (1h 24m 53s): If a photo of the Grover, a Muppet in a noose. I honestly, that to me was that was that's the bottom of the bottom of a Muppet. And there was like the cutest little Grover as well. And I have such a problem with it. We really did both the male because I was born 10 weeks to permit Sheila. And in my incubator I had a group of a choice. So Grover has that always been my protective, the tiles. And so, yeah, that sort of stuff like it's horrible, but you just try, you have a few female platforms so we can escape it and have a refuge away from it. And it's basically, they proved the point. They prove the need for it 0 (1h 25m 31s): 100%. Okay. So do you want to tell the listeners where they can follow you, how they can support you and where to find your app? 2 (1h 25m 38s): Okay. So Giggle is on the app store and Google play, just search Google and then, and check out Giggle talk, because that is the thing I'm most excited about. And it's what you get two to the public feed, where you get to see women's opinions and conversations roll around the world. And then I'm on Twitter at South tweets. It's two, L's S a w L I spell my own name wrong. 0 (1h 26m 4s): And yeah, that's basically where I am. Well, thank you so much. I had a great time and I wish you the best. 1 (1h 26m 12s): Okay. Thank you. I that's it for this week's episode. If you enjoyed the podcast, please rate and review and don't forget to hit that subscribe button. You can also share this podcast with a friend and it helps my vodcast grow. And I really appreciate it. I hope to see you next week.