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April 8, 2021

#37 Aella- Monogamy, Polyamory, and Sex Work

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Aella is one of OnlyFans' most successful creators. Aella was homeschooled in a fundamentalist Christian household. After leaving home and finding herself unable to afford college, she found herself in a series of demoralizing jobs, the worst of which included working in a windowless factory and being exposed to sunlight for only two days every week. She escaped that awful life through camgirling and escorting. She briefly worked in the "safe for work" sector before returning to porn and becoming the owner of one of the most lucrative accounts on OnlyFans. In this episode, Aella and I discuss the varying definitions of degrading work, the value of monogamous vs. polyamorous relationships, and how she unwittingly humanized sex workers through her social media presence.

When the pandemic hit the US,  Aella was escorting and decided she needed to find a different way of doing her work. In her journey to becoming an OnlyFans creator, she felt anxiety about marketing her pornographic content openly.


In her "safe for work" roles, Aella had created a network of influential peers who were unaware of her experience doing sex work.  There was a tenable discomfort around introducing her content to those peers, and she feared that people would no longer want to be publicly associated with her. She entertained the nagging feeling that her reputation would shift from an intellectual to just a "titty girl." Reentering sex work had become daunting in a way that it hadn't been when she first entered the industry years before. This time, she felt she had something to lose.


The public's perception of sex workers tends to be very one-dimensional and born from a lack of information. A lot of the resistance to sex work and sex workers results from not knowing any sex workers who are comfortable with themselves and the profession. Men and women in the industry internalize the shame projected onto them by the public and keep their work private to protect themselves. Feeling comfortable and secure about sex work goes a long way in driving an honest conversation about it and humanizing sex workers by releasing them from the shadows.


Links and Resources

Support the podcast https://www.chattingwithcandice.com

Aella’s Twitter

Aella’s Instagram

Aella’s Blog



Support the show (http://patreon.com/candicehorbacz)


0 (0s): Yeah, I think this comes back to what we were talking about earlier. I think a lot of people haven't really updated because they don't know sex workers or the sex workers that they do run into aren't people online. They're just like titties and booty that they don't really trigger much empathy. And so I think we're going to see a lot more acceptance of sex work. As people become more familiar with sex workers. 1 (28s): Hello, everybody at your listening to Chatting with Candice I'm your host, Candice hor back before we get started on this week's episode, if you want to support the podcast, you can go to the Chatting with Candice dot com. From there, we can either click the link that will take you to our Patrion account, where you get really access to episodes. Or we can click that little link that says, buy me coffee. Both things helped me out a ton. I'm trying to schedule some in-person interviews very, very soon. So every dollar does count. I am thrilled for today's guest. She has been someone I've been following on Twitter for a very long time. She is a very complex woman. She shares a lot of very interesting like data collecting polls on her Twitter. 1 (1m 11s): And she's just like this very wonderful mix of like brilliant and sexy. So please help me welcome a Aella you're in you're in Oregon, Washington. Okay. Okay. 0 (1m 26s): Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. It really is when you're covered in trees. Okay. 1 (1m 33s): Oh yeah. It's gorgeous. Oh, that's one of my dreams is like one day to be able to just get like a little cottage in the woods, a way from all of the craziness of society and just disappear her. Where do you live now? A Wilmington North Carolina. It's is it kind of a smaller town? A a hundred thousand people, but it's still like busier than I would pick. Like, I would really want like a lot of land and horses and just like solitude, but one day it's like, you have to decide, right? Like with what do you value more? Is it like the convenience of being in town, especially like that? I just have a one-year-old now. So like the socialization aspect of that, or like being out in the wilderness, mudding him be like huckleberry Finn. 1 (2m 18s): So it's like, I'm trying to push it away it out. 0 (2m 22s): Yeah. It's a really tough decision. I also am like, struggling with that because I'm planning on moving at the end of this year, so, 1 (2m 29s): Oh, really? Where are you looking at 0 (2m 31s): Austin? It feels like really? Yes. 1 (2m 36s): Her husband and I were looking and like, we were trying to find some houses out there that also had land and surprisingly it's a lot more affordable than where we are now when we calculate 15 acres. Right. And what we paid for one year, its a nuts and then you just see like a lot of action happening. So I feel like it's kind of the best of both worlds and my mom's in Houston. So there's like some like some family out that way. 0 (2m 58s): Cool. Well maybe I'll into you soon. 1 (3m 1s): Yeah. Yeah. That would be awesome. So do you think like you are homeschooled, right? Like your entire like childhood educational years, how, how would you weigh that? Cause like, I think there's like a myth, right? That like homeschooled kids that are like weird and they are kind of like socially inept. And if you look at your Twitter account, it's the furthest thing from the truth. Like you're, you're brilliant. Like you're a very, very like intellectual person. And if you someone, would it be like, Oh, she was actually homeschooled her whole life. People would be like nonsense. Right. And you don't fit that mold. So I guess like where I'm going with that is like how much do you think on like your home schooling? 1 (3m 41s): Like do you think that prevented you in social situations in any way? Or like how did you become who you are? Yeah, 0 (3m 49s): I mean, so I actually think that there is an element of true saying that homeschool, homeschool kids are weird and the socially inept, but I think it's like a little bit different than what most people mean. It like, yes, they are weird and socially inept compared to non host homeschool kids, but like homeschoolers as a group, tend to know how to interact with each other very well. It's just sort of an isolated community. And so they're very skilled, totally normal is at talking with each other as kind of similar to like if you had somebody come from another culture and like, come hang out with you, you might be like, they're kind of weird and socially inapt. And it's like, well that's true in comparison to like what you're expecting, but like they are good for you no. Compared to what they came from. 0 (4m 30s): So it's hard to compare it directly. So yeah, I think I've, I learned to, I'm a pretty great, I'm a pretty classy homeschoolers if you will, among the homeschooler culture, but I weird it was balls out in the real world. And so I'm trying to adjust, like when I, when I entered the secular world, it was really alienating for quite a long time because it's difficult to explain exactly how much this permeates. 1 (4m 60s): So I find at least with a lot of the girls that I talked to are the ones that had gotten into adult. So actually starting with webcamming as well. And a lot of people were shocked because I was so like the shyest person, always, like I moved around a ton. I also had a bit of an abusive like upbringing. So I just like tried to kind of avoid people in general. Like I, it was always the new kid in SMU could be get bullied. So that just made me like a really quiet person. So when I started webcamming, obviously a lot of people are like, how, if you were so shy and quiet, can you be comfortable with taking off your close to a room full of people? So it was that progression. 1 (5m 40s): Like, did it feel natural for you or was it really difficult? Because when I did it, I was like, ah, I'm home. This is wonderful. 0 (5m 48s): I'm really happy to hear that. I kind of relate in the sense that I also was pretty quiet and shy and had the, like a weird upbringing. And yet people were surprised that I turned out to be such a performer, but it feels like a compartmentalize thing, right? Like, like sort of out in the world is a little bit outside of your control. And like people have the ability to hurt you in various ways. Like, you know, through just rejecting your friendship even, but online it's like suddenly it's a world that you're creating from scratch. And it's like this excitement of having this creative way to blossom socially. And there's like a kind of clear cut rules. Also, like you take off your clothes and then they compliment you and you earned money. 0 (6m 32s): And so a lot of things about it, it feel a lot easier than real life socializing. Actually. I took me a much longer time to sort of adjust to being naked because I have been raised so incredibly conservatively, but it didn't take that long. And pretty soon I, I felt super comfortable in front of the camera. 1 (6m 54s): And how would you say that that affected maybe like your wellbeing once you started to get comfortable with like you're being naked and being sexual? Because I recently did a clubhouse event with like, with a doctor and a couple of neuroscientists popped up and they were saying that there's kind of like In like an epidemic happening with like a conservative Men specifically. And it's because of like the shame that goes around sex that they end up with a much higher risks of like depression and a lot of like anger issues. And I know for me, like I was a very angry person too growing up, but like once I was like really started to like find She and my relationship with my sexuality is when I first started to kinda become like my most authentic self. 0 (7m 42s): Yeah. That seems pretty true. I think for me it took us, it was like The actually coming to terms with my sexuality is a much longer and is still ongoing process. I think I still have the pieces of me is sort of baked in that it doesn't really know what the fuck I'm doing. It was like freaking out about it. I think those are pretty small. And I think they are like quite like far away in that they don't really impact my, my daily experience, but yeah, there's a lot of anger in it. I think that helped. And, and I don't think I did it out of rebellion, but I think that like the anger that I felt helped make me not feel ashamed about it to be sort of like, well, I've been surprised it was so much that like, this is sort of an expression of, of ownership and like, this is my body and I get to decide now what I do with my life. 0 (8m 33s): And there's like a little bit of range in that. And I think that it was a really healing light. It was sort of a therapeutic process to be able to work through that. I'm really curious about this. You said conservative Men are more likely to experience shame. Is this the books to conservative women? Okay. 1 (8m 52s): I think it's just more prevalent probably because, or maybe like women aren't like outwardly discussing their sexuality when like these, when these poles are being taken. So like that might attribute to some of the skew, but specifically they were saying that it's much higher and conservative Men. And I think that obviously like religion ties into that and they, the, the same data was also saying that they watched the most corn, like even compared to like, you know, like liberal men. So guys on the, like the far right, are consuming a ton of it. Then there's a lot of shame and guilt that goes with it. And that they tend to suffer from like higher rates of depression, which I thought was so interesting. And the timing of it, it was great. 1 (9m 33s): Coz I just did this clubhouse two days ago and I had tweeted something today that I didn't even think was like controversial. I like, it was just kind of stating that like you can be sexual and also have a mind. And to me, like you are a great example of that. Like your Twitter account. Like, I mean, it's just, it's nothing shy, brilliant. Like I love it all the time. You have great poles, you have to just like very insightful, like, like threads that you go on to. And the way that you talk about with these really complex topics like Monogamy, I just find so fascinating. Like you're very able to articulate those things. So it was just like a, Hey guys, I'm reminding you that to you. Two things can be true at once. Right. I can be sexual and I can also have a podcast. And I also have opinions I can also have in mind. 1 (10m 15s): And then I treat that and then I had this conservative guy that was running for Congress. I'm in Georgia, retweet it with a quote saying like, why is it the most like degenerate people and society are trying to force us to accept them. And I was like, it's just when I left as well, who invited you here? I just find my account. Right. She doesn't follow me. I don't know who he is. And I was like, I'm not trying to convince anything in any one. If you want me to be monogamous, if you want to be super fresh and like, by all means, go for it. But I'm just simply saying like, we're all human beings and we should treat each other with some empathy, right? Like show me your character. And then I can judge you not simply because you're a fulfilling, a biological need, right. 1 (10m 57s): Sex is a biological needs for everybody that you are a bad person. So I went on like how it had to calm myself down before This. I was like, I haven't had someone come at me like that in a while. And it's like, wow. It really gets you. Sometimes 0 (11m 11s): It is so strange and a little bit foreign. The you're degrading yourself frame. I remember that from way back when, but it's been so long and it's crazy. Cause it feels so real for them. Like I used to think like that and it's like such a specific and strong structure with the way that they interpret reality. And it's so clear to them that we are a terrible degenerate people who are living in civilization. It's like not even a question. And it was a comm must really suck to live in a world where the way that you view other people is like that. Like, it must be just so alienating for, for both yourself and others. Like you're also alienating that part of yourself, like in, In calling you a degenerate, it, he's also calling all the parts of himself that are like, you also degenerate. 0 (11m 57s): So it's, it's really unpleasant for him, I assume. 1 (12m 4s): Yeah. So that was a question I wanted to ask it. So do you think that you can to grade yourself? 0 (12m 11s): What does degrading mean? 1 (12m 13s): I guess specifically that's a good question to write like our, what do we all have? Like a common consensus on what that means? Because I think, I think that varies, right? Like someone can think something's degrading that I think is a great time. Right. I think if you're consenting to an act, I think just by that process of, of consenting, you can't be degraded. 0 (12m 36s): Yeah. That seems true. I can't really think of a time I've ever felt the graded. I like the concept doesn't feel like a strong one for me. 1 (12m 49s): Yeah. I can't really recall a memory either. And I certainly haven't when it comes to any like sexual acts, like all of those I've participated in willing fully and like, you know, usually with some enthusiasm behind it. So I had this conversation with somebody and it was someone who was like very anti, like poor on an anti sex work. And they were saying like, I was like, well, what, what's the issue behind it? Like, what is like your reasoning behind like having such a strong stance? And she was like, and it was a woman M it's degrading. And it was like, no, one's degrading about it. And she was like, well, I just, I don't think it's the right to be seen as piece of meat. And I was like, okay. 1 (13m 30s): And this woman's like a little bit older. I was like, well, when you were younger, did you like wear makeup? Did you wear heels? Did you wear like tailored suits? What was that for? If you don't want to be seen as like a, a piece of meat or if you don't want to be sexualized. Right. So you're doing these things on the exterior that are essentially like a meeting call, right? Like you're, you don't put makeup on for women. You don't put makeup on fair for yourself. Right. Like if you lived by herself in, in the jungle, you're not going to put eyeliner on it. It's just not going to happen. So I was like, so was that degrading? And then she was like, Hm. And didn't have anything to say. I was like, you're just now saying that you're making yourself like this piece of meat. Right. So yeah, I guess that's where my hangup is with it. 0 (14m 13s): Yeah. And the piece of meat thing is also really interesting. Like I'm not totally clear on exactly what people are doing when they, when they say the words, like a piece of meat or is it something like, you're not empathizing with the person that you're looking at or like your relationship to the person is primarily like what you, they can do for you as opposed to a, I don't know, some sort of like a friendship for something, in which case, that seems like the way that most of us operate in large cities, even where you have to do that. Like, people can not be humanized when you're dealing with them at large scale and like a big system or we have defined roles. So like the concept of like a piece of meat feels like a really confusing and vague thing. 0 (14m 57s): That's like, sort of meant to evoke this reaction that I, I don't really understand. 1 (15m 2s): Yeah. For me when I hear that, I feel like the point that a lot of people are trying to get across is that like, like men are predators and your, this you're just to be consumed and that's like your only value. So I think when they see people that are in sex work, they are associated with like a consumption and like a means to an end. And that's it. And I think it's across the board, right? Like you have your story of working in a basement factory where you said you saw the sunlight only two days a week. To me, like that's more degrading than, you know, making a video of yourself in your living room and deciding like what you want to do, what makes you happy? 1 (15m 42s): Having like the most sense of freedom that you really can, in my opinion, when it comes to work, like you can work anywhere at any time and kind of like create your own income. So yeah, the other one to me is like way more sad and way more of a prison. And when it should be more unacceptable by societal norms, then 0 (16m 2s): We do. Yeah. I absolutely agree with that. It's probably comes out of people. They imagine doing sex work and then they feel really horrified by it, which I, I mean, I sympathize with I've experienced that. And then they think, okay, anybody who does sex work must be suppressing that same level of horror, like they're doing the typical mind fallacy. And so like in their mind, this is like a cult, quite a clear thing that they are actually trying to save us from the horror that they project upon us, that we must feel that it is, it is kind of a projection. And this is the main thing that bothers me when people are telling me that Sex work is bad. And like, first of all, get your projections off of me. 0 (16m 45s): I am not you. I do not have the same motivations or reactions. I can tolerate very different things than you can. Like, let me be different. Like, let that have the space in your mind to have people are very different from you pursue wants that. Maybe you personally can't understand. 1 (17m 2s): Yeah. I think that's huge is for it, for the women that I was talking about to, is that the fact that she couldn't picture of herself doing the things that I do. And then that was like the hangup. She was like, Oh, I could never. And I was like, that's fine. There's a lot of things that I could never have. Right. And I don't tell someone else that they can't do it, or I don't like go and attack them on Twitter. Like this is like random guy, one of the things I also want it to, I guess, get your opinion on. So you took, this is a bit of a hiatus from adult and then went back after you did like the ICO. So why was there the stipulation that you had to stop webcamming to join the company? 0 (17m 38s): Well, the thing that we were creating was a dating app that was already kind of the barrier of like monetization, because we were looking to make a dating app where you would be basically financially rewarded for participating. Like micro-transactions basically. And so to him, and we were very careful to distinguish it. This is not sex work. This is like just basically a use, more useful dating app. So it was bad to look for them to have an actual, a sex worker on the team. So they are there, like you can joy, but you just can't be actively doing the sex work, especially because we did our ICO in South Korea who are absolutely not okay with any form of that stuff. 1 (18m 20s): Oh, okay. Well then that makes sense. So when you decided to get back in to only fans, you were mentioning that, like, now there's kind of like, like a dissonance a little bit between like your identity. Can you explain that a bit? 0 (18m 36s): Yeah. So I was actually escorting for about a year and a half before I started only fans, the pandemic hit. And then I was like, well, I should probably figure out a different way of doing this. And then I started only fans and that was really a uncomfortable for me. 'cause for a few years, I had been developing this persona as a safe for work person. Like most of the people who followed me on Twitter, I had no idea that I had done Sex work. I was an actively trying to hide it. I just didn't mention it really. And so the thought of starting up sex work again and being open, I became like really afraid of the social pushback. Like I was developing a powerful friends who are my peers that I really respected and I was afraid that they would no longer want to be publicly affiliated with me because I was doing this sort of stuff. 0 (19m 24s): And it felt kind of embarrassing. Like I have been focusing so much on being like a quote unquote intellectual, and then, and now I'm going to be just like a titty girl. And so it felt really vulnerable and sort of this new way. Like when I first started hamming, I, I didn't have anything to risk. There was nothing to lose. I was already at rock bottom. And so it was like, fuck it. But here are like, suddenly there was a lot to protect this. This is the reputation that I had to carefully navigate. So that became really weird. And so the, for the first few months after starting only fans and talking about it, it was this pretty uncomfortable transition period is like, I've modified like my public identity in that way. But then now I got mom used to it that it was great. 0 (20m 5s): Like now we get to talk openly about it to people like you and, and I totally worth it. 1 (20m 10s): So did you see any kind of follow up when you went back in by like these people that you kind of like respected or perhaps like maybe put on a pedestal like these, you know, academics or doctors or whoever they were, did you see any of them be like, Ooh, nevermind. I have to distance myself or did they not really care? 0 (20m 27s): No, no. I think a big part of it was keeping a separate, a Twitter presence and it's like a separate, like I have a non-sexual Blog and a non-sexual Twitter and I interact non-sexual on the internet a whole lot. And so I think like keeping that separate, made it a lot easier because that way people can sort of pick and choose the kind of ALA that they want it to interact with and what they wanted to reflect on them. And a lot of the people who I was friends with any way, like were already kind of weird and on the edges of, as it is, maybe it's the same with you. I don't know. But they are people willing to tolerate super like bizarre ideas and out their thinking and are, are already okay with sex workers. So it actually, it didn't impact me that much. I think it actually ended up helping me. 1 (21m 10s): Yeah. I think I've kinda found the same. So when I got on a mainstream porn and I just started shooting like for myself and like only fans, that kind of a thing, I was trying to like figure out what I was going to do next. Cause I didn't want to just be like Eva, like that's great. And that's where like, you know, virtually all of my income comes from, but I like wanted to like pursue other things. And I was like working with someone that had like a pretty significant Twitch channel and they were trying to like pitch me to like so-and-so. So I had to like clean up my entire Twitter page till trying to look more of just a regular person and not so spammy because it's really easy when you're in the thick of it to be like, look at my new scene, swipe up, watch this stuff. 1 (21m 53s): So it was like way too, like adult promotional and like less like me, like there wasn't substance behind it. So I cleaned up my entire Twitter account, the Twitch thing that ever worked out. But I ended up like just starting, like sharing more of like my thoughts and like who I was. I put my real name out there because I'm like trying to create like that divide. Like there's Eva and there's Candace and Candace is a real person and Eva kind of only exist in this one place. Right. And that's what I want it to really get across because I think a lot of the times when people treat us like shit it's because they don't see us as a real human beings. And I don't know why that is. I don't know. Like if part of it is because we were using fake names. 1 (22m 34s): I don't know if part of it is because so many people aren't sharing like anything of depth or like anything intimate or real, but I just, I'm trying to do my part in like breaking that down. So then I started getting the same type of like followers with people that I like really admired and, you know, had these opinions and I wanted them to who to like me. Right. And I'm like, I just had like a neuroscientist following. I can not be posting pictures of my, but just like, this is what we do. 0 (23m 6s): Oh God, would it be safe? 1 (23m 9s): I would like go through in my mind. And I would just like, I would get serious anxiety. So it was like, okay. So how can I like kind of flirt with this line because I have like a Candice and a Twitter account, but I just got like no followers and I don't know a lot of effort into it. And I'm like, we already have this one that's There. So like, I kind of want to just focus on that. So I like try to do everything and like the most like tasteful way, that's like not so promotional and so far, like, no one's really cared. And some of the people that follow me, I'm like, why are you following me? Like your literal genius from Harvard? Why are you following me? But it's pretty cool. But yeah, I found the same thing. Like I've kinda had that struggle with like my identity as well. 1 (23m 50s): And like, not trying to like sacrifice authenticity, but it, like, it kinda makes you like fine tune your skills a bit. Right? Like, like sharpening a sword when you have like these, these obstacles to speak of in that way. 0 (24m 4s): Yeah. I, it's also really scary, like, and because of like attaching, you know, a really vulnerable sexual side of you to an actual personality is sort of a doubly vulnerable in some sort of a big way. Like you can't compartmentalize to the same degree. And I think that, that it takes like a very specific kind of personality, which I guess both of us must have M which is really cool. 1 (24m 34s): Yeah. But I think the compartmentalization like helped me a ton in the beginning, especially when, like I got in. I mean, it wasn't like super young. I think it was like 21, but like, I didn't really have a big why. Like I just felt like where I was supposed to be. And like I had a blast and I was just kind of like blindly following wherever, like destiny took me. Right. And you would have people that would shame you or like just kind of like treat you like a, not an outsider because of like your decisions. And I would get so angry and I would get so defensive. And the reason I was doing that was because I, I didn't know my why's. And then once I started like breaking those down and becoming more confident in my decisions and more authentic was When it's very rare that I get worked up over someone criticizing my decisions today was a bad day. 1 (25m 27s): But, but yeah, I think, I feel like the most me that I felt in years when I started to like merge those two worlds. 0 (25m 38s): Yeah. And it's really powerful. Also, like I had a birthday recently and for my birthday, I asked people that tell me a ways I've impacted them. And there are a couple big themes, but one of the biggest that really surprised me was that people regularly told me that I changed the way that they perceive Sex work because I was attaching so much of my personality to it. But like I never really knew before that sex workers work, people are in a way. And that was really cool to hear. Like, I, I didn't even know to what degree that was so important or rare, even like people's perception of sex workers. It's very flat like the sex workers that are, are here for a Sex and to be able to actually be genuine, I think really transforms the way that people relate to us, which is great. 0 (26m 25s): I think we need more humanization. I think a lot of the pushback against sex, where it comes from like not knowing anybody who is open and comfortable with their job, like a lot of us, it has internalized that shame that society has given us. We do hide it. And so people sort of learn that we should hide it. Right? Like they kind of like react to us with the signals that we're giving. So to be able to have like the comfort and the, the security to really be open and totally vulnerable is a extremely helpful to, to the face of sex work. I think, 1 (26m 60s): Yeah. I, I hope that it, like w is a trend starts to happen where people start to merge the real them and the stage version of them. But I think that there's a lot of promise of anonymity or like protection that some people want to hold onto. But in my experience of creating a, a fake name never helps. I've still had like crazy situations and stockers in that whole bit. So I think that helped make my decision and just owning Candice, if that makes sense. I did want to ask. So when you and your blog, when you mentioned returning to sex work and returning to only fans, you were also saying how you kind of a started to like see yourself a little bit like that as an avatar, if you will. 1 (27m 48s): So when you started seeing yourself in this sexual way, it was, you said not a bad, but just, just like odd. Right? So when you made the decision to start escorting, was there also like a, the same disconnect? Because a lot of people would probably think that's wild. Right? We see these movies, like what's, what's that movie on an HBO, the call girl or girlfriend experience, right? Like that's most people, is it knowledge when it comes to escorting or they think the opposite, which is someone who is very like hooked on drugs and, and poverty and doing it because like they have to write, like, there's very few people that would look at you and think, you know, she probably escorts, right? 1 (28m 31s): Like you have a very, like, just homey, like sweet, 0 (28m 38s): Yeah. Escorting this. And this is what I meant to say. Yeah. Yeah. It looks like the girl next door. It was just somewhat intentional. Excuse me. We had, when I was escorting it wasn't, it was sort of, it felt like the best sex work because to me, I like the healthiest easiest to do. And why 1 (28m 57s): Really? How is that? How, believe it or not. 0 (28m 60s): No, I think it was because there wasn't an asymmetry in a tension. Like it was always one on one. And with online work is like one to many eye do a thing. And that like a thousand people see it, or like if somebody sends me a message, I have to respond to a a hundred messages that day. And so there's some like necessary dehumanization that occurs both ways. Like people kind of have to dehumanize me because they know that I'm like this object of, of games like up here. And I sort of have to dehumanize them because like, I functionally can't humanize every single person who, who watches me or like wants to talk to me. But with escorting, it felt like closest to actually have an organic human experience. So there was still a weird dynamic, but it felt like I actually got the time to get to know somebody and have a real connection with them. 0 (29m 47s): And often it was, you know, not meaningful, but sometimes it was really meaningful. Like I actually ended up making really good connections with people and feeling like maybe I was benefiting people's lives in a way that was much more obvious. And so it was so much more fulfilling. I had my eye that would be if I could make as much money escorting as I do. And only fans, that would be my ideal form of work. 1 (30m 12s): That's it? Yeah. I think that is going to be very surprising too. A lot of people 'cause, it seems like it would be a very scary line of work to get into. Right. Because I mean, I don't know, like the vetting process or your vetting process, but it does seem that you could be in a potentially dangerous situation. So would you say that's a lot of the reason why people are pushing to legalize? It is to make it safer? 0 (30m 37s): Yeah, I think, I mean, decriminalization would be great. I'm like really wary of more restrictions getting put on my way. I decided it would be best for me individually. I was lucky I'm all of my online sex work training, like helps me know how to Mark it really well. So I was pretty good at marketing myself and I charged quite a lot of money is about $1,200 an hour. And so that helped him automatically filter for people who are wealthy clients and wealthy clients tend to treat you better. So I was very lucky. I only had like maybe two experiences that were scary, but screening goes a long way though. 0 (31m 18s): The one worst experience I had was a guy who I think I forgot to screen. I screened everybody, but like one guy fell through the cracks. I don't know what happened. And it just like, I didn't like doing a thorough job. And then that, that was the guy that fucked me over. But most standard screening is a, you get references from two other girls. So you, you have two other girls like contact you and be like, yes, the sky was, it was good. And that's it. That is pretty good. And you check those girls to make sure that they are verified their valid, the real people who are actually C, C clients. Right. And that helps. 1 (31m 57s): So for these more meaningful experiences, can you like elaborate or do you feel like that'd be an invasion of privacy? Because I think for a lot of people, they have that idea that it's just like getting used and a dollar exchange and there is nothing more behind it because I do think that for a lot of men, because obviously Men are going to be the biggest consumer when it comes to that, I can totally see where that could be needed for some people. I know that is going to sound like a crazy to some, but some people don't have another means for that human connection or for that intimacy. And I think that between consenting adults, that they should be able to do whatever they like. 1 (32m 38s): So I'm hoping can maybe share a little bit, but if not, I totally understand. 0 (32m 42s): Yeah. I mean, I would like to leave them anonymous, but like some, some of them were virgins who were just terrified and like wanted to have somebody experienced and accepting to guide them through it. And that felt great. Some people just felt really rejected by women and really sexually insecure and wanted basically help. Like how do I just teach me how I can become like a more sexually confident man to be able to go on and be sure if myself, when I interact with other real women, one guy who I think is like the most meaningful one for me was a, I S I entered the hotel room with him and I could just sort of feel like sadness emanating off of him. 0 (33m 29s): And I sort of like became sad with him. And like I asked her, are you like what's happening? And then, and so we ended up just like holding each other in crying and he just sobbed into me. And we took off our clothes to have skin, to skin, content contact, and just like pressed our bodies together. And he like held me and just sobbed. And, and I was, I was there for it. Like, it, it felt really good and, and it is so hard for men to be able to have something like that. And so for, for this guy, I would see him, you know, once a month or something, and sometimes we would have Sex. 0 (34m 9s): Sometimes we wouldn't be, but it was just a lot of skin to skin content context. I say that word and him just like emotionally processing things with me there to witness and hold him in that and to be set with him. And that was incredible. I don't think a therapist can't do that. Like there is no other system that we have in place to be able to like, have that kind of experience for a guy. And I was so happy to be able to find that. And there were, of course were other guys like some, guy's had a wife who like hadn't had sex with them in 20 years. And they have one guy who had cancer. He had found out that he was going to die and he was like, I don't want to die without having sex again in my wife home to me is like, so, and I don't want to ruin my life. 0 (34m 53s): I don't want to like leave her and explode everything we felt. I just want to have a sexual outlet. So he figured, like if he found an escort, it would be like safe and contained and not fuck anything up. And he could just go have this thing before he went and died. So he did. And I, and I got to be that for him. So there was a lot of shit that I've like a lot of guys who are like, obviously didn't seem to care for me, but there was also a lot of guys who I felt like I was actually performing a really important service for their life. And I love that. And I don't get that quite as much with only fans, which is my main complaint is that I don't have enough intimacy with the people that I talk to. 1 (35m 29s): Yeah. It's hard when you do everything virtually, even when you're doing something, that's like a live stream, that's just not the same. Like, you can't have that connection. Like you said, when you picked up the, I don't think that that would happen virtually, unless you were very skilled person. Like you just don't have that electromagnetic information that's being exchanged. Ah, I had a follow up to that. Oh. So why do you think it is? Cause I think like a devil's advocate or an opposing, we would be like, well, why did that man not have someone else to cry with? Like, why? Like that should have been the role for his wife for that should have been the role for his girlfriend and you are impeding on their intimacy by doing that. 1 (36m 12s): So for that argument, like what's your perspective. 0 (36m 17s): And the guy who kind of was, we didn't have a wife, a girlfriend, he was severely depressed and lived alone with a dog and just didn't have that option. I think he didn't feel capable of maintaining a serious relationship with somebody because he was so depressed really. But also like I don't see intimacy with somebody who's not, your spouse is inherently bad. And if there is like intimacy than the spouse would prefer to have, then it seems like there's something wrong with their relationship. Sometimes sex work isn't would be an unneeded if the world who are more perfect, that seems true. And I think there's still times where it would be needed if it worked perfect. 0 (37m 1s): So is, it really depends on who the exact situation we are talking about. 1 (37m 6s): So when it comes to Monogamy, I loved your comparison and one of your blogs. So you were saying that people enter, like enter a marriage, essentially with the same, like negativity of a college student signing up for an immense amount of debt. And it's, you don't accept the, that Monogamy is the only way to have a fulfilling, loving relationship. You're not a debt alone and you can't have anything other than that. And I think that was pretty spot on. And you also did a thread where you were explaining, I think it was maybe Polyamory and you were saying, well, a lot of the concern from women was, would be that he is going to leave you and he's going to fall more in love with this person. 1 (37m 55s): And you were saying, well, if I love this person and he maybe has a deeper, more meaningful connection with someone else and I try to prevent him from that, that feels gross. And I was like, she's putting into words, something I had never really been able to articulate quite as well because my husband and I have a different, a different relationship is not fully open, but it it's just our own little concoction. Like we've spent a lot of time curating exactly what works for us in our boundaries for each other. And I don't think enough people do that with their relationship. They just say, this is the relationship that I'm supposed to have. These are the rules that society says are the only rules and till death do us part. 1 (38m 39s): And then you see the statistics of 50% divorce rate. So clearly something's not happening. So do you think that Monogamy is going to be the standard for the rest of our lot of times? Do you see that starting to shift with the younger generations? Do you think it's even attainable for people that meet and get married at a young age? What's your opinion? 0 (38m 60s): Yeah, I think likely we're going to see it as a standard for most of our adult life. I'm I think likely if I had to make a guess, it would be that we'll see something similar happen with Polyamory as we did with the gay rights movement back in the day. Cause there's a lot of similarities between the two and it's going to become like a solid accepted and minority status, if you will. Like some people will just be poly people and that's it. But yeah, you're absolutely right in that, like Monogamy is a, just a default people don't really have this option. And like a lot of people do a lot of negotiation when they get new relationships, they want to find somebody who is a dog person or cat person or wants kids or something. 0 (39m 41s): And there's no question about like what kind of relationship style do we really want? Because people don't even know how to ask themselves that question. People are like, don't like I was PA I'm a a hundred percent in total Polly. And I realized in hindsight that this is the way I was operating, even before I knew it Polyamory was, but I still like expected a monogamous relationship. And I didn't know that there was, that was a question I could even address even begin to start thinking of until I had somebody else like present that as a viable option for me. And I think is pretty similar with homosexuality. Like a lot of people I remember going to the South Korea and they told me that didn't have gay people There. And I was like, what do you mean you don't have gay people? 0 (40m 22s): And I think it's probably because it is just not an option, but people don't talk about it. They suppress it. If you have those feelings, it's like kind of weird. And you, you like, you convince yourself that you must be attracted to like the correct kind of person. And I think the same thing is happening. We have this big social rewiring that causes us to re-interpret a whole bunch of signal's is evidence of monogamy to the extent that we don't even doubt it. So yeah, I think that like we should give to the point where it becomes something where people can openly question kind of like homosexuality and like, Hey, you probably, this is cool. Are you like half poly? Do you want like kind of an open thing, like figure out exactly like the kind of concoction that works for you. But, but as, as we get to the point that I think this is a question that people are allowed to ask themselves the more, I think we're going to see a lot more happy, happier relationships. 1 (41m 12s): So do you have any advice for people bringing in this conversation up to their partner? Because I know for a lot of people I've spoken with, it's very intimidating. They don't even know how to approach this subject. I think once they figure out what they think they want, how do they say that to their partner without telling their partner, you are not enough because it's not what it is. It's to me it's just the most realistic way of saying till death do us part, it's me saying I want to be 120 years old with you on a rocking chair, no matter what. And like my sex drive is higher than a lot of women and I'm attracted to very nice things and I don't want to necessarily give that part of myself up. 1 (41m 59s): And then I know my husbands very similar and I don't want to put him in a situation where if he decides to partake with somebody else or it's shared an experience with someone else that I had blow up our family, that doesn't make sense to me either. So to me, it's almost like if it's not, if it can't, if it can't survive these things, these trials and tribulations, like in a fair, in some cases or whatever the case may be. And then it probably wasn't loved to begin with. I know that is going to probably like ruffle some feathers, but I like it. It's unconditional says Vic. 0 (42m 37s): Yeah. I mean, that's true. Like, like so many people consider it a sleeping with somebody else to be sort of an indication that they don't want that relationship anymore. The original one, it, it just seems so, so strange to me, it's like a crazy thing to try and wrap my head around, like, okay, wait, you experienced sexual attraction, someone else you acted on it. And that somehow means that you don't want your other, I don't get it. I don't get that at all. But you're right. The, the, the conversation is super hard to have with your partner. I think that people who I did a study on our survey on Monogamy versus Polyamory satisfaction relationships and people who are either extremely monogamous are extremely polyamorous, had the highest satisfaction rates. 0 (43m 26s): And so my theory about this a is that the people who are halfway in between had the lowest satisfaction and this occurs when people are in a monogamous relationship and one of them wants to be like, Hey honey, how about we try this thing? And then they kind of try it. And so they're not totally on board, both of them or their using it to try to save a dying relationship. So I think it's one of the hardest positions to be in it. It's where you want it to be, have an open relationship and your partner doesn't I think is extremely rare that that actually works out. The thing that you have to do is like, actually let your partner know that this urge does not reflect on them, which is so hard. 0 (44m 8s): It takes a lot of maturity on their part to be able to understand that. And it can be really, really slow going. So I, I'm sorry to be so pessimistic about it, but it's tough. 1 (44m 19s): It's really difficult. And for me, it's odd that in our society, if you have multiple children, it's expected, if that there's not enough love for them, you don't love one of them having a second child doesn't take away love from the first child. Why is there an abundance of love for our children in our family members, in our F our social circles, like friends, but there's not an abundance of love romantically. 0 (44m 48s): Yeah. I have a friend who was a sex worker who had just had our second child. And she says something like that before she had the kid is like, she had trouble imagining how she could love another child as much as the first one. And then after she had the second one, she told me, she's like, I think I might understand Polyamory now. Like, I, I don't know how, but somehow love both of them so much. Like I don't love the first child any less. And I was like, I felt so good to hear because it feels so true. Like every time I've been in a relationship with more than one person, and I'm not saying that there aren't dynamics that float over, like sometimes something that like, I really like with one person, like, won't be there with a second. 0 (45m 28s): And like, that might create some weird dynamics, but also that, but generally speaking, it doesn't affect you like the baseline reason why I'm with each of these people at all. 1 (45m 40s): Oh yeah. And I find it so interesting. I think when I became a mom was when I started to, even though we only had one, one child, I started to understand Polyamory more it's. So for me, that concept has always been very tricky because I always had that, that, I guess, ignorance, maybe to how you have three people or more, I don't know if more is also a typical are like three is kind of the standard, but you have multiple people. It seems like it could get very confusing, very fast. So for people that maybe are up to speed with, like the traditional is a traditional Polyamory relationship are all three people in our relationship together, or is it like you can be in a relationship with the other, with one other person and your partner can also be in a relationship with another separate person. 1 (46m 32s): And those two people don't necessarily have to talk to me or be in the middle. 0 (46m 37s): I'm actually not sure what the most common based on my networks, most of whom were poly. That seems to be the most common configuration. People still tend to like pair bonding really hard in Polyamory. So often you'll see like life partners together. And then like both of them have girlfriends or boyfriends. And then like, those boyfriends might have their own life partners or something. And so you get the, sort of have this chain of people. I also wanted to make one distinction, which is, is very important for a lot of conversations about Polyamory is that there's a difference between engaging in Polyamory versus like allowing your partner to do so. 0 (47m 17s): Like, for example, I I'm, I'm not really dating anybody right now, but I still consider myself polyamorous. There's a similar way that you might be gay, even if you are a single. And so I think the thing that really defines this is whether or not you allow your partner to have other relationships, it doesn't necessarily mean that you personally have to be in other relationships only that this is always an open thing. Like you could always have this discussion or have the expectation that you're partner is allowed to have these sort of experiences, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be like to people who are in a relationship with only themselves and not anybody else are still people that I could consider polyamorous because they might be in a situation where like they could like, like add. 0 (48m 1s): And I was like, connect, like latch on to the, to, to ones outside people often call polyamorous groups, poly QLS for the cause. There are like these diagrams of connection. Anyway, I just wanted to make that distinction as a lot of people would be like, well, I don't want to be polyamorous because I only love one person. Like I meet the person that I fall in love with, and I'm not interested in anybody else. So I'm not sure if that's fucking great go for it. That's it. That's not the question though. The question is like, are you preventing your partner from getting his needs met in places where you can? And that's the biggest one for me. 1 (48m 39s): I think that that's the interesting thing too, when it comes to traditional monogamous relationships is that we expect our partner to fulfill all of our needs and there's only one person. And then that dynamic, it's more complicated as you've become parents. And as you've become older and you have to start taking care of may be sick, have grandparents, and you get to just get stretched so thin, but yet you're supposed to be all of these things to one person when you often aren't enough things for yourself. So it makes sense that either occasionally or for like the life of the relationships that you wouldn't need something to supplement or not. And I know that sounds, that's not the best word because it kind of goes back into people's ego saying like, I am not enough, but you kind of are, you kind of, can't be all things that one time to everybody, right? 1 (49m 28s): And that doesn't mean that you were a lessor or unworthy or that you are loved any less, its just not feasible, but we don't expect our friends to be everything to us. They can't be, that would be a toxic friendship. Right? You'd be like that. You know, Candace is being very needy. I can't believe she's texting me at midnight. And she expects me to come pick her up at the doctor's office and also cook her dinner and also surprise it. Like we can't, we don't expect that anywhere else. So I find that always very fascinating as well because we take it so personally. 0 (49m 59s): Yeah. And this is one feature in which polyamorous relationships feel a lot healthier to me is that you don't have that pressure on yourself to be so much more like often in monogamous relationships. People feel sort of this obligation to, to hit all of these things. But in poly you get to put boundaries way more clearly you can be like, Hey, I don't want to do this thing. If you want to do this thing, you go find somebody else to do with also sexually like people who have run into so many problems when they're sexually compatible or in the way that partner has a higher sex drive and the other day. And it's like, what are you do that it's it doesn't make sense to try and force two people into the same mold. 0 (50m 39s): And, and so it's been a huge load off of me like during times where maybe I'm on birth control of my, my sex drive is really low that like my partner like really wants a lot of sex and, and then I get to be like, no, it's okay. It's so good. I could be like, what are you finding? Sex is your, your job. You can go find somebody else to have sex with because I don't want to write now. Whereas if I were in a monogamous relationship, there's there would always be this little thing in my mind where like, well I need to keep him happy because I'm not letting him get this from anybody else. So, so there's a lot more self freedom. There's a lot more ability to fully explore what you actually want in a relationship and be a little bit more selfish about it really in ways that like end up helping everybody. 1 (51m 23s): And so were for women that are listening to this, where do you start to find that confidence? Because I think we tend to couple secs with love. And I think a lot of that is with how we were raised. And I kind of have always said that that's part of the, the issue with these toxic relationships is that women are having sex and then they are permanently attached themselves to this man. And I was like, well, I did this very important sacred thing with him. So now I can't believe right. So when you take the power away from Sex, when he were like, no sex can just be Sex, then I think you'd leave yourself open for a healthier relationships because you're not filtering everything through that lens that if we were intimate, it now has to be something more than just that. 1 (52m 15s): So you can actually see the relationship for what it actually is rather than being like guilted or shamed into staying. So when it comes to finding that confidence, I know when I started to be more honest with what I wanted in a relationship and start to explore that open relationship with my now husband, but we were just engaged at the time. It was really scary because you're like, well, what happens if he likes her more? So it took a lot of like inner work for me and a lot of meditation and a lot of journaling, a lot of just quiet time and really like digging deep, deep, deep into like why, where my fears were coming from. So can you share maybe like you are a process with finding that with yourself or maybe some advice for a woman that's teetering on that, that idea, but it hasn't quite had the bravery to have, to be honest with herself yet. 0 (53m 6s): Yeah. I mean, I feel very similarly to you. I mean, it, it is a process and I also want to preface by saying that it's not necessarily good. Like there's a lot of things in life that if we had a perfect space in the charity and self knowledge that we would be good at, like for example, I have phobias around some things like very loud noises or needles and that triggers me and it reduces my options in life, but the amount of effort it would take to become okay with being triggered like that, isn't worth the amount of times that I get triggered. Like it's just, I'm not, I'm choosing to go my whole life getting triggered by needles and that's just be like, that's all I'm going to do about it. 0 (53m 51s): And I think is perfectly reasonable to make that kind of decision. If you were like, Hey, working on this thing, isn't worth it for me. I'm not going to do it. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people who decide to that. Monogamy is too big a thing to work on for them. They don't want to like work on themselves to do the insecurity confidence thing in order to have a poly relationship. 'cause like, it's just, its a longer journey than they want. And they want to focus on other things and their life. I think that it was absolutely commendable. I think that people should be down with doing that and do that with no shame. Like our life is a series of trade-offs and you get to make yours. So that being said, yeah, Polyamory like requires a whole lot of self knowledge in confidence because a jealousy is like insecurity. 0 (54m 34s): We really like if somebody doing something with somebody else that doesn't directly affect you, like lets take the ideal scenario of like your husband is on his lunch break at work and he's not going to come home anyway, he's you don't normally talk to him when he was on his lunch break. And he has the opportunity of having sex with like somebody passing through with no risk of STDs or pregnancy. Would you not want your husband to do that? A there's a zero impact. This would actually have on you. Like if you didn't tell you that he would have no idea. And if you don't want him to do that, then this is something about you. Like, this is something about like your fears about what this indicates. And so in order to get over that, you have to really look at what you're afraid of. 0 (55m 17s): You have to be like, Oh my God, I'm afraid. I'm not good enough. I'm afraid that he is going to leave me. I'm afraid that I'm going to die alone. And those are really big and scary things to take a long time for some people, especially if you have like specific types of childhood trauma that might make those kinds of fears more salient for you. Like in some ways I am kind of lucky. I'm sort of sort of naturally poly in that like the problem's that I have in my life tend to not be triggered by Polyamory. They tend to be sort of other kinds of things that are triggered. So it's been relatively easier for me to be a poly M but yeah, it, it takes a ton of work and coming to terms with a lot of like a really painful possibilities in your future, like there's a way in which Polyamory feels like a constant letting go with him. 0 (56m 6s): And I'm a partner is just like every day it's like we were making a conscious choice to be together this day. Like I might lose you at any point because our lives might change and I want that to be okay. And like sort of that makes things more vivid and it makes me feel like much greater appreciation love for the person who happens to be with me right now. 1 (56m 28s): I would, I would definitely agree with that. It gives you a lot more gratitude for the relationship and I think it makes it a lot more difficult to take for granted when I don't know, I don't want to say that there's not a risk that you're just being more aware of all of the, but the intrinsic nature of life, right? Like everyone's always meeting someone different and I think there's less of a forced obligation in that sense, right? Like, like you said that every day is kind of a commitment to that person, like is not expected that I can treat you like shit and neglect you and let the romantic side of our relationship died and still expect you to be there. Right. It kind of forces you to, to be present and put in the effort. 1 (57m 11s): So it definitely thinks there's advantages. And I think there's advantages to Monogamy as well. I just think that we don't, we're not consciously making those decisions. So it says the big takeaway from this segment would be to just like consciously craft your relationship and not just fall into it. 0 (57m 29s): Yeah, absolutely. 1 (57m 31s): So I wanted, I wanted to circle back with, with the, all the Men that you have seen, whether it's on only fans or camming or in person where you start to see the difficulty of them being able to connect with there, with their partner. Like a lot of the times, even with webcamming, they might be like my significant other considers just cheating. And it's an outlet that I really needed for X, Y, or Z. Why do you think that those conversations aren't being able to be had in a healthy space? 0 (58m 11s): You mean with their partners? I mean usually the partners are pretty unexciting the way their partners view it as some sort of a betrayal or is it like comes out of an compatibility? They have like, maybe like I mentioned earlier, like maybe their partner has a lower sex drive and they want more sex and they don't want to pressure the woman into having more sex because there's like a very strong social messaging that that is not okay. A and so they felt a little bit trapped and this is one way to get out of it without having to pressure their partner. Yeah. I don't know. What would it mean you also have done camming? Like, do you have a sense on exactly like why they're saying this to you and not to their partners? 1 (58m 57s): I think that there's a certain level of trust that's not there. So I think often we tend to just hyper focus on the man and we blame him and there's something wrong with him and we don't look, there's two people in our relationship. So it takes to be able to keep it healthy. It takes two people to make it fall apart. So the way that I look at trust, this is just for your like, experience and going through my own personal struggles in my relationship is I used to have a pretty, a pretty bad temper to the point where if like my partner had done something wrong, it was almost worse to be honest with me because I didn't allow him that space to be honest. 1 (59m 42s): So he didn't trust me. He didn't trust me that I would be able to act in a civilized manner and a compassionate manner and, and like allow him that grace, that grace to be human because we all make mistakes. So when we worked through that and he kind of led me to, to this realization, trust is broken on both ends, right? So we'll usually when someone cheats or there's some kind of the Sikhs, I don't consider watching porn and cheating. I think that is something people really need to figure out because there's not even a live person there. Right. It's just content that they are consuming. 1 (1h 0m 22s): So let's say that that's a deception on one part in that that partner is breaking the trust by watching the content. I would, I would also put my, you know, my pole and stay in the sand and say that the wife or the girlfriend is also like breaking down that barrier of trust by not allowing the space for him to come and say, I slipped up, we had an agreement that we, I don't do this behavior and I'm sorry, I'm going to do my best to find a healthy way to exercise my needs within the parameter of our agreed upon relationship. Right? So the trust isn't there on the other side as well. So I think we have to, it's not saying that you can be in a, in an abusive relationship or you can be in a relationship with someone who's maybe got an antisocial behaviors where they're constantly betraying you and constantly cheating on you. 1 (1h 1m 11s): And that's very different, but I'm saying we have to allow the grace when we have to have to trust on both sides, that you have to have that space available for them to come to you and know that you are going to be loving and compassionate and try to fix it together. I think that's a lot of the fears. They were like, if I had come to her and I genuinely, maybe it like, I don't want to do the slip up again. I really feel bad about it. And I want to work through this together, but I can't because she is going to explode it. That's not good. That's not healthy. That's not love. 0 (1h 1m 40s): Yeah. That's a really fantastic insight. I haven't been in that specific position. So I haven't actually thought about it in those terms, but it makes a ton of sense when you say it that way. And you're in there that there is like a, it's hard to tell because we have a lot of messaging around to preventing abusive relationships. Like it's okay to be upset or which is true. And I think that it was an important thing, but all things in moderation and you can go too far and you're right. Like, like a relationship can't survive. If you have such strong and harsh punishments for fucking up a like, there has to be some sort of like, like moderation process. 0 (1h 2m 22s): To some extent you can't can't have a healthy relationship unless both of you are okay with hurting the other person. And like both of you can hold that and be like grieve it and sort of respond to then move forward. Like that, that is a really necessarily part of a healthy relationships. And it seems like I would not, I would put money on lack of that. Being an impetus for a lot of men consuming porn. I also Dre this conversation had been imagining the angry Congressman who tweeted at you, like listening to this podcast and they're just a mess. 1 (1h 2m 54s): <inaudible> 0 (1h 2m 58s): Yeah, it was so many of the things were saying, I was just like, I can, I hear like the conservative voices in my head, a being pretty upset. Do, do any conservative people that are okay? 1 (1h 3m 9s): No, I actually have a lot, like a lot of very like very conservative, like followers, friends, and they take more of a libertarian approach to it, which is as long as like, there are two consenting adults, its none of their business, its just not for them. And I respect that all day. I think everyone's allowed to create their own compass of sorts as long as no one is doing any harm. But what's so fascinating to me is when you get those people that are still so stuck in like a time capsule of a a hundred years ago and they genuinely get infuriated by the idea of anyone and especially a woman that's capitalizing on our sexuality. 1 (1h 3m 51s): For some reason when you introduce money, people get really uncomfortable or just having those sexual liberties right. And saying my it's my body. And if I want to go have sex with 10 dudes today, that's my business. I'm not hurting anybody that they just, the amount of anger is what is really like. I'm just really interested in the psychology behind that. Like, I don't know you, I don't owe you anything I'm States away. So where is this anger coming from? And usually when you look at like the hierarchy of emotions, anger and fear and like very closely correlated. So then what is he is scared of? Cause that I would break that down. I think that anger is superficial. 1 (1h 4m 31s): So I dunno. Do you come across to a lot of these, like these angry blue check marks on the right that are coming at you for your crazy sexual ideas or lifestyle or have you kind of avoid it and Tufts people, 0 (1h 4m 47s): I mostly avoid it. It might be easier for me because my Twitters are fully separate. I think I might run into more problems if I had more like sexual content directly visible on my Twitter. But yeah, I think a lot of these people like are operating sort of under a different framework of reality in the sense of like the way that they structure meaning. So it's like almost it, it is kind of a religious where you view like big structures in the world that are symbolic. So that when I was Christian and we believed that God and a man were symbolic of like the man in his bride so that God was like the man. 0 (1h 5m 32s): And they're like, the church was a woman and then they are like marriaged. And so there was a symbolic repetition that occurred throughout life. And so like upholding certain aspects of the family. It was actually holding the thing about God. And so there's a it's it's like there and you're not viewing a thing for the specific element you're thinking about it. You're viewing it as a symbolic instance of like this greater pattern. I think that's what these people are doing. Like the, the, the people from a a a hundred years ago, they have this idea of what a good society it looks like and the good society, it looks like monogamous man and woman pairing and then children and, you know, the 1950s or whatever and everything that is like a deviance from the sort of thing. 0 (1h 6m 12s): It was like, phew, through that lens. So like, if you, if we normalize, you're doing sex work and like accepting money and this contributes to the breakdown of the nuclear family, which will then contribute to the breakdown of a functioning society, which affects them personally. Right? So like, they, you don't, you're not just you like, they've attached to you into the way that they are themselves a part of. And so they are like very directly threatened by you and me. And so, so I think that that's like the problem, right? Like the, the, the way that they think about reality is just like interconnected in a way that we don't view it as 1 (1h 6m 49s): That's a really a good way to put it. So what do you think it is about the exchange of currency that makes it that much worse? Because, so I saw this meme that was going around and I show it to my husband. He had died. So it, it was like, Oh, the stick figure that was holding a cake. And he's like, I bake cakes and I bake the best cakes. And there was this other person that was like, I love cake. And then he goes, okay, I'll sell it to you for $20. And he's like, how dare you? You monster. They were like, this is a great representation of Sex. I was like, you like Sex? I like Sex. So I'm going to charge you for it because capitalism and all of a sudden your, the worst person in America. 1 (1h 7m 33s): So why can't, why is it for me? I feel like even in the mainstream, it's starting to become more acceptable to be sexual and promiscuous even perhaps for women, but it's still absolutely not okay to exchange money for it. So why, why is that relationship so different once you introduce money? 0 (1h 7m 56s): I think it sort of removes the veneer of commitment. Like presumably when you have casual sex it with somebody that you find attractive, and this is sort of a reflection on like mate choice, but you're still being judicious in your choice in some way. And money just removes the idea that you were a judicious whatsoever. It removes like it is kind of dehumanizing to men in a very similar way that that porn is dehumanizing to women. Like you no longer care about the man that you are having sex with whatsoever. And this is clearly not for your pleasure. This is for specifically the money. 0 (1h 8m 37s): And so it is, it's like a really raw and direct exchange that makes people feel really disconnected from the people that are with which to some extent I think is true. And I think I'm fine with that. Like, I'm totally fine with being dehumanized in that way and dehumanizing others, as long as we are not consenting adults, we're having a good time along the way. But I think a lot of people who are really horrified by that, and it probably ties into something, something like we reproduce with the children. And so like the kind of person you'd choose to have sex with is a really strong reflection on things like your self-worth and your strategy for the future and whether or not you probably had children before. 0 (1h 9m 18s): We don't know, but I, I don't feel like I'm have a lot of stronger insights into that specifically. Unfortunately, that that'd be curious if you do. 1 (1h 9m 28s): No, I think that's really interesting too. I've heard people talk about the meat selection and then why it is that when a woman is promiscuous, it's kind of a frowned upon, which is because it's saying that she's doesn't care about her line essentially, which means that she must not be worthy of furthering align or have an important line. So I guess from a biological standpoint, that makes sense. But I feel like we're creatures that are constantly fighting our biology or are constantly recognizing, Oh, that was just my wiring and I can make a different choice. Right? So it's not to say that there aren't biological reasons why we behave the way we do or think the way that the way we do to some extent, I absolutely believe in evolutionary biology, but I do think that what makes us different from the other animals is the ability to recognize when that's happening and then make a different decision. 1 (1h 10m 21s): So we have enough information that we can say, okay, well, there is some science to why we slept Chatting and that made sense then, but now we have condoms and we have the ability to control when we do procreate have children. So that doesn't really make sense anymore. So I'm going to sit with that and I'm going to try to, you know, come to the conclusion that I think makes the most sense for life that I want to live. And I think she's a wonderful person, so I'm not going to judge her because of my monkey brain that's telling me to. So I think even though there's like a very hard evidence that as to why we should justify certain things like that, I think that we also needed to take a responsibility to put in the effort to not do those things when it is maybe not like the best decision or the most kind decision, I think to judge somebody based off of like, what they prefer sexually to me is just not much different than judging someone for being gay. 1 (1h 11m 21s): Right. It's that biologically speaking. Okay. Maybe we looked down on that again because of furthering the line. Maybe that there is something there, but we have to say that that doesn't make sense how, and that's not a good reason to treat these people with any less love and respect than a straight couple. So again, it's just, it's kind of, I'm trying to understand yourself on a deeper level and understand your wiring on a deeper level and just like taking more responsibility. 0 (1h 11m 50s): Yeah. I think this comes back to what we were talking about earlier. I think a lot of people haven't really updated because they don't know sex workers or the sex workers that they do run into aren't people online. They're just like titties and booty that they don't really trigger much empathy. And so I think we're going to see a lot more acceptance of sex work as people become more familiar with sex workers. Like I was mentioning like one of the most common things people told me that I changed their mind about was sex workers are cool, which is crazy because I try really hard to change people's minds on a whole lot of stuff. Like Hi, like crazy arguments that are like beautifully, just incredible that sometimes I'm very proud of. 0 (1h 12m 34s): And I tweet and I'm like, this is an awesome. And they were like, people don't really respond. And it's crazy that like the one thing that did work, people changing their minds on, on sex workers. And I ain't even tried that hard. Like those aren't even my primary forms of the things that I'm arguing about, but it's just simply the existence just simply running into it and seeing it, which I think is exactly what happened with the gay community. People didn't really like gays B, but nobody knew any of them. And they were sort of this like momentum such that gaze were afraid to speak up because nobody knew them. And so nobody liked them because they were afraid to speak up because nobody. And so I think we're seeing the same thing he had. We were starting to break that cycle of like sex workers, like you and me in the other really incredible ones are, are finally starting to be like, Hey, we're, this is fine. 0 (1h 13m 21s): We're having a good time. And where people come and talk to us, like this is a real thing. And I think that is just, that is going to change things really fast. And I'm really excited about that. Okay. 1 (1h 13m 30s): Yeah. I think that's one of the most important things that you're honestly doing with, with your brand online is that by sharing so much of you and your mind, it does start to kind of erase that stigma. So I think you're a wonderful example of being able to be able to share like difficult opinions and have a controversial polls, right? Like you are not like tweeting stuff that we'll never ruffle any feathers. There was some stuff that, you know, it, it will, could be seen as polarizing. And I think that's amazing. I like, I love like a good, like an intellectual debate are something that like, it makes you really question like a core belief and find that when you learned the most about yourself, but you also crushing it on only fans. 1 (1h 14m 16s): I was listening to one of your podcasts talking about how financially successful you are. And I was like, that's fucking awesome. I'm like so glad that you are, you're making serious money and you can also share so much of yourself. So where I'm going with this as I think that you were a great example for a lot of these other women that have been constantly told you, keep your mouth closed, don't share any opinions because that's going to hurt your bottom line. And I've always said the opposite. I was like, that's what makes you, you, right. There's like a, there's a millions of beautiful girls. If you want someone to, to stay in and have like longevity with you, if you would want your brand, I have longevity. Their has to be something that sets you apart in the only thing that sets you apart is like who you are. 1 (1h 15m 1s): So to not share that I think is a huge mistake. So what would you say to, I guess, all of these people that have the day-to-day idea that you have to just be a pretty face and not, you know, it kind of like sit, there would be pretty like a very old school model of what a good girl is supposed to be, because again, you're sharing these incredible opinions and you're also raking in the cash. 0 (1h 15m 24s): Yeah. I think this also comes from a misconception about what men want and not to downplay like men want a beautiful face and a big tits and booty or whatever. It was just true. But I think people sort of focus on that so much. They lose sight of the fact that men want actual connection with someone like underneath all of that. And like sexuality functions is a proxy for this. And so men who are looking for like a person underneath that, a hopefully a hot person, but still a person. And so whatever girlfriend do you mean, like how do I make money camming or something, I'd be like, put show yourself, like there, here to feel approval from you. 0 (1h 16m 9s): They want your approval to been something like, they want to feel like they've known someone else who has seen them and love them for who they are. And this is so integral I, and this, this really reflects sadly on the public perception of what men want. I think people sort of trivialize it or brush it away or find it like not meaningful, sort of unnecessary sort of, they downplay the importance to the mental health of men for getting sexual acceptance, which is sad. And also it makes it so that you have a great competitive advantage if for among women, if you know that what they want is soul. So yeah, you're absolutely right. 0 (1h 16m 50s): If you show yourself that you, you make a lot more money, it feels a little funny to tie it into just income. Like it's a good market strategy to show yourself, but I think I would be showing myself more, even if it weren't a good strategy. So yeah, 1 (1h 17m 5s): I think so too, because it, it becomes suffocating. And I think that's where you start to lose your identity because you're not allowed to spend time there. You have to spend time in your alter ego and she's very dumb and she's a very quiet and she's very agreeable. Like it's just these things that don't align with who you are. And the more time we spend there, I think the more that the really it kind of gets eaten away. And I mean, I'm friends with some of the most polarizing women on Twitter. Like just what they say is drawing a very hard line. And they're certainly not going to get anyone else on the, on the other side of the fence to sign up for their content. 1 (1h 17m 48s): And they still do very well for themselves. It's not hurting their bottom line. And I think that the pros definitely outweigh the cons when it comes to showing who you are. So for anyone that's listening, if you have a platform, I think it's so important to be the most authentic version of yourself and not be scared of like a financial fallout, because I've yet to see it happen. I don't know if you have any friends that maybe have seen that, but I'm get to see them and be like, Oh my gosh, my income disappeared overnight because I tweeted something just doesn't happen. 0 (1h 18m 21s): I actually came close to that once a lot of my income comes from Reddit right now because I post in the subreddits and then people see me. And that, that, that's what my funnel is. And I tweeted thing about cat calling, uhm, which people really hated. And then they screen-shotted it. And some people started sending it to a bunch of Reddit mods say asking for me to be banned from all of a suburb it's that I posted that there was a concerted effort to get me banned. And a couple of the subreddits did temporarily ban me or tell me to stop posting for a little while, until it calmed down. And that was really scary. I was like, fuck, like I want to have to diversify my funnel. 0 (1h 19m 3s): So I'm not vulnerable to this happening again. But luckily I came out of it. Okay. It didn't actually end up impacting my income, but there are some near misses that are kind of freaky. But then again, like who knows how much income that I gained that I wouldn't have otherwise from being polarizing and open. So, I mean, ultimately I think it's a significant net positive and I don't know any other sex worker personally, who is more controversial than I am. So I'm the highest risk really. 1 (1h 19m 37s): So what, what did you say specifically about crack college and he's, I've heard it when I hear some men talk about it. It's a very, like, I tend to very easily sympathize with, with men for some reason before women, I think like that's just my comfort zone. So I've heard them kind of, I guess, poke fun of and like make very light of it. And I was like, of course it's not a big deal. But then I take myself back into like my younger brain, like maybe, you know, 18, 19, whatever, and maybe walking home at night, getting catcalled and remembering like that anxiety is because the biological man is so much bigger than me. And if he really wanted to, he could do whatever he wanted. 1 (1h 20m 17s): So by him, like kind of eliciting those, you know, Hey baby, whatever, it actually did something to me viscerally. So I, I kind of, I'm like in the middle, on the fence about it. Cause I do see like some people like really cracking down on it and I can sympathize with both parties. So yeah. Well what was your article or your you're a tweet? 0 (1h 20m 38s): Yeah, it was, it was, I, it was about race actually. So I I've been catcalled almost primarily by black men. I also personally like cat calling. I typically don't feel threatened by it. I view it as a sort of a cultural thing to demonstrate like, Hey, you're, you're beautiful. Like I am like, yeah, thank you. I feel beautiful today. So I personally don't experience that as a negative and I also experienced it predominantly from black men. So I was asking is how much of the, the stigma around cat calling comes from racism? That's my question because black men tend to do more catcalling. 0 (1h 21m 20s): That was a big no-no that people really, really hated that because I was implying that black men do CA which I think is true. I also don't think it's bad. Like I, I, the times where I have actually felt threatened by men, it wasn't a black man and it which all of this, I said in my Twitter thread, but, but people found it to be quite racist, which was pretty unfortunate. And if people call you a racist, it's like a pretty bad thing nowadays. 1 (1h 21m 50s): And I felt, I find that to actually, at least for me to be the opposite. Like I used to think that was one of the worst things you could call somebody because it's just, it's a detestable thing, right? It's in its actuality, like actual racism, this is a really gross evil thing, but now we should throw it around all the time. So casually. And I guess I had just seen everybody called it online that now I feel like it's a lost its meaning to me. And I'm like, I know I'm not, he knows he's not. And you know, this person without even a profile picture, doesn't matter at it at all. So yeah, for, for me, I think the opposite and I'm like, okay, let's move on with my day. 1 (1h 22m 32s): I think it depends on which is unfortunate. 0 (1h 22m 34s): No, you're you run in. So I think I absolutely agree that racism is losing its power as an insult because it's been so overused. But I think there's a lot of systems where it's becoming much more powerful. Like people are getting fired due to the accusations of being racist. And for example, people were using that word to try and get me banned from subreddits and which was nearly effective. So I think that it's becoming more polarizing what that word actually is indicating depending on the kind of sphere that you're running in. 1 (1h 23m 6s): Hmm. It's interesting that they would call, they would suggest that you were racist for that poll because I think it's like quite the opposite, but the way that I interpreted that question is not quite the opposite. 0 (1h 23m 17s): Yeah. I know. Right. They really focused on the part where I was saying that black men cat calmer and not the part where I was like, Hey, maybe we should question our conceptions of calling itself. And like maybe there is like a racist component to that. How much of this is just people being afraid of black men? I I'm to be fair, like also really curious about a differing, like Rosie's we hold them, like might rub up against each other. And for me, like this one is a really great example of one where there is some sort of like incongruity in, in the way that people perceive the world. So I personally don't have a huge steak in the answer, but I'm mostly was curious about how people handle the, the, these two ideas, like sort of pushing up against each other. 0 (1h 24m 9s): But I don't know, people are very people who are very like strong and learning to be more careful with how I phrase things now, because people tend to take them out of context and it's like a war zone. You have to be really careful. I didn't have you experienced this at all, like a brigade. So on Twitter to come after you for like something that you said that they've interpreted the incorrect way. 1 (1h 24m 32s): I haven't had like a dog pile effect yet. I don't know what I would do in that situation when it was just multiple attack. After attack, after attack, I have had the one random person that like is really vindicated and like letting me know how awful I am. And depending on the day, most of the time now I'm able to completely brush it off because I've tried to really separate myself or my sense of worth from people that I don't even know. But sometimes like today it was just like really got me flustered. And I think it's because I haven't had like enough exposure as a way as of late too. It, but yeah, we, are you familiar with the August Ames situation when that happened to a few years back a year? 0 (1h 25m 21s): Yeah. I followed it when it happened and I'm a little rusty on the details, but yeah. 1 (1h 25m 25s): Yeah. So essentially it was, it was because of like dog piling. So she had said something to the effect of, so she wanted to say like, if someone was performing with trans performers or if they were doing a lot of gay content that it had to be disclosed 'cause it was up to the performer, whether or not they would work with those performers based off of their sexual history, which I think is totally valid, right? Like you're allowed to say for whatever reason who has sex with you, I firmly believe that is such an easy, it was such an intimate Men, intimate act. It can be so easily violated. And I think you were the only one that has that agency to draw your own boundaries. 1 (1h 26m 10s): And no one else can tell you right wrong or different. Like, it's just that you recall. And I respect your call. So she had tweeted about that, 'cause it wasn't disclosed. And she had an issue. So she ended up like canceling the scene, I believe. And then like another very big a performer kind of when after her and her followers, just like a dog piled onto her. And it went on like, I want to say for a couple of days. And then she ended up committing suicide because of it, because she was just a very sensitive person. And it was a lot, I think it'd be a lot for anyone to really handle that kind of attack because we're so addicted to our phones. And it's such a new experience to have an opinion. 1 (1h 26m 52s): And then tens of thousands of people come at you with pitchforks, like that were not really designed for that. So there was obviously a devastating consequence. And I think the problem is there's a lot of people don't necessarily, or at least initially realized that there were a part of this dog pile or attack on someone. They think they are just one voice. At some point it becomes a very obvious what's happening is you can see the threads, but I'm trying to get someone like de platformed or a cripple, their income, or get them fired. Like these have real consequences, right. And were allowed to have different opinions. And you might think it's, you know, wrong because you tweet a poll or put a poll on Reddit. 1 (1h 27m 32s): Right. But you are going to destroy or attempt to destroy this person's livelihood. And because of that, that seems a little bit crazy. And someone says that they don't want to have sex with a particular type of person. And then you go after them and the tens of thousands, that seems a little bit crazy. So I'm very anti-censorship but it is like, at some point you'll have to realize that there's still are consequences for words. So, yeah. I don't, I don't know how you handle that. Moving forward with technology, right? Like how do you handle speech or a dog piles? Is there a line? So obviously I'm very pro free speech, right? 1 (1h 28m 14s): That's a convict, she's a conversations, everyone, everyone is having, but there's a certain speech or a certain types that I feel like start to get into a dangerous territory. 0 (1h 28m 23s): Yeah. I mean, not insulting people is a great first step. If you, you just have that as a general rule for your life, no matter how horrific you think this person is just like, don't insult them, attack the ideas, rather themselves, that would go a long way. Then you don't even have to worry that much about becoming a Dogpile because I'm okay with dog piles about ideas have ever been like, Hey, I disagree with that. Like, okay, sure. I felt like not a lot of people we're going to commit suicide over that. The problem is the dog piles tend to be a really directly insulting life telling you your a piece of shit. And we hit you is crazy. The psychological effect of dog piles I've had that happened to me in a few times. And it's unlike anything else. 0 (1h 29m 4s): It was a very surreal sensation. And as it often makes me want to find other people who have gotten through the same thing, because it's like, it's like doing a drug and you're like, Holy shit. I felt so alone in this. And I always like, I'm never sure how I'm going to react. Like, I, I become much more sensitive to people in my closest fear. So like my friends, I become really sensitive to things that they say, which is not typically the case. And also I find it pretty compulsive to look at the things that people are saying, and everybody tells me, don't do it. Don't see what they're saying. Don't search your name, but it's such a strong driver to, to not watch people talk about you because it's like a defense thing. 0 (1h 29m 49s): It's like, I need to know what they're saying so I can know how to protect myself. Like if somebody shooting bombs at me, I don't want to just close my eyes. And so it's like this, this, this, this is like riveting force that like works its way into your brain. And then you're like, am I a bad person? Like, did I do something wrong? And then if I didn't, you know, why is the world of being so mean to me is really, really tough. And I hope, I hope we never have to go through a really bad one of those. I'm glad that what I've gone through, hasn't been that bad. And I feel really terrible for August. It's a, that that's, it's like a really terrible thing to experience. And I'm sorry that it was so, so hard for her. 0 (1h 30m 31s): I it's, I think if we just stop and say, 1 (1h 30m 33s): Yeah, it's a letter, it's the worst case scenario. 0 (1h 30m 36s): Exactly. 1 (1h 30m 39s): So how, what did in the times that you've dealt with it, have you learned any way to be more resilient to it? If this happens to me in the future, do you have any advice 0 (1h 30m 53s): I learned in it? Well, I didn't know. You probably won't have the same reaction as me. Everybody's a bit different, but if I had to give advice to me in the past, it would be something like, be aware that you are going to be more sensitive to people around you and then give them a heads up. So at this point, now my friends know that when I'm going through something like that, I don't want that they can criticize. If they have criticisms with the way I'm handling it. Tell me like two days, don't tell me right now. So, so everybody kind of like nos to be really supportive of me, no matter what, just for a little while that, that, that took me a while to learn I'm. But also that it's okay. Like, I mean it, but I'm sure, you know, I feel like you would handle a dog pile pretty well. 0 (1h 31m 34s): You have that vibe about you, but is going to be okay with us a support network of people 1 (1h 31m 40s): Two, but I don't want to be like overly confident. 0 (1h 31m 44s): I don't know. But 1 (1h 31m 45s): Yeah, I don't want to be like, you never know. Yeah. I can imagine it like that. There's a lot of energy being thrown at you. So I guess your interpretation of it, it can go like a lot of ways, but yeah, I see me just being like, what the fuck is happening and just kind of like cute laughing, but also being confused. And also maybe being a little bit hurt a bit. Like I would be very overwhelmed in that situation, but I'm, I'm very fortunate that I had like a solid support system. And I mean, my husband would probably just take all of my devices for a couple of days and be like, absolutely not. Like you're not going on there. Like, let's go on a hike or something. 1 (1h 32m 26s): And so he's a huge role when it comes to like balancing out Eva in Candice and my social media and maybe not the healthiest interactions that are happening online. And I handed him the phone and that Congressman between me and I was like, wait, do I say to This? He's like, why didn't you have to say anything? And I was like, I don't know, but I really want to say something. And he just like took my phone and, and walked away, which is good because then I ended up not like engaging with him and giving him more followers and likes and all of that stuff, which I'm thinking is what he wanted. But sometimes I need someone else with more clarity to make those decisions for me. 1 (1h 33m 7s): All right. And that's it for this week's episode, I'm sorry for what seems like maybe an abrupt ending. We had some technical issues and we could not recover the last 20 minutes. My heart is so broken, but if we do figure out how to recover it, I will upload that to my Patriana, that we can finish the conversation. I really hope to have a low back on the podcast very soon. I'm and then after this airs, we are going to schedule a live clubhouse event. So if we want to have, if you wanna join the conversation or if you have any questions, this is a great opportunity for you. So just to make sure you follow up on social media and on clubhouse. So it, you don't miss the event. So you can find me on clubhouse app in the store back. 1 (1h 33m 49s): And it's the same as all my other socials. And I hope to see you there. Don't forget to like subscribe a believer of you and share with a buddy. See you later.