Jack Murphy is a podcaster, author, and founder of The Liminal Order, an exclusive men’s organization that ascribes to positive masculinity and believes in the power of individual accountability. His book Democrat to Deplorabletakes a deep look into the Democrats who proudly switched parties to vote for former President Donald Trump.
In this episode, Jack and I talk about feminism versus traditional masculinity, the keys to a successful marriage, and why more men should do yoga.
The Negative Effects and Aspects of Homeschooling
The past couple of years have witnessed an increase in the number of parents choosing to homeschool their children. Many experts have tried to explain why this is the case, and, for the most part, safety and religious concerns always top the list. Clearly, these concerns make sense because homeschoolers do not have the same exposure to peer pressure and bullying as school-going kids. However, although justified, these concerns do not repeal the reality that homeschooling can have lifelong adverse effects on children. For one, children need to spend time away from the caring eye of their parents to learn how to adjust. They need to understand that life is not a bed of roses, and situations will arise where they end up on the losing side of things. Thus, time spent away from family is when they can learn the art of compromise and deal with despicable people.
Is Yoga Too Feminine?
When you look at the yoga community, a disproportionately large majority of its members are female. Jack believes that this is probably because most men believe yoga is only for women.
However, yoga is a recommended health practice for both men and women. So, as a man, you might be thinking that yoga is too feminine or that you’re not flexible enough, but yoga was originally invented by men for men. Furthermore, challenging your body in a new way can drastically improve stamina and build confidence. Of course, there are certain types of yoga that might be too feminine. So, as a man, it would be best if you avoided those.
Why the Man needs to be the Leader in his Family
Sadly, many men don’t want to be in charge in the family setting. Some husbands don’t understand how to lead while others simply refuse to lead. Jack believes that the many serious marital, financial, and parenting problems present in most homes are directly a result of men’s failure to lead. Jack further explains that women can furnish the house, clean, cook, and do the laundry, but that’s just part of their feminine side. So, as a man, your responsibility is to lead the way, take care of problems, and be the muscle. There is no such thing as equals in marriage, and women are happier when they have an alpha in the house who initiates stuff. A leader doesn’t wait for others to help him make the first move. He is the instigator.
Links and Resources
Jack Murphy’s Democrat to Deplorable
Support the show (http://patreon.com/candicehorbacz)
0 (0s): You know, if your, if your friends are worried about having those conversations about values with their partners, with people that are dating, I think that it says everything. It says it, they probably know what the answer is. R and they probably know that their incompatible and they're 1 (12s): Just sort of whistling past the graveyard as it were. 2 (16s): Hello, everybody at you are listening to Chatting with Candice. I am your host, Candice. We're back before we get started on this week's episode, I want to first say thank you so much to Shay shade. Thank you so much for your buying the, all of these cups of coffee. That's a very generous of you. I also want to say a big thank you to Tony VAs. Thank you for being a Patrion member. Both of you. You helped me out so much on this new journey of becoming a podcaster, and I really couldn't do it without you. I also want to thank everyone that has been leaving reviews, sharing it with everybody that they know it's really been helping the numbers. I really appreciate you. So this week we have Jack Murphy joining the podcast and really excited to have him on Jack Murphy is the author of the very successful book, Democrat to deplorable. 2 (1m 5s): He's also the founder of the liminal order, which is a men's group. He talks a lot about culture, politics, masculinity, and all of those very important subjects. So please help me welcome Jack Murphy. Well, Jack Murphy, welcome to the podcast. 0 (1m 23s): Thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm glad we could make it. I appreciate you allowing me to reschedule last week. I was sick as the dog and it just wouldn't of been any fun. So I actually 2 (1m 31s): Appreciate you just telling me otherwise it would've been a subpar and then I would have been a little disappointed. So I'm glad that we made it happen. That you're feeling better, all that good. 0 (1m 40s): Definitely no hacking and coughing in your ear today. 2 (1m 44s): So I saw you recently got engaged, so congratulations. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Yeah. So how long have you been with your partner? 0 (1m 51s): Wow, we've been together seven years. So it's a, it's been a good run and a, she's been through crisis in joy and ups and downs and every little aspect of life that you could possibly experience together and a things are going well and getting better every day. So I thought it was about time. 2 (2m 10s): Yeah, it was going to ask that's a long time to be together before you pop the question. I know me. I would be like, take it. Yeah. 0 (2m 17s): Well, I did get quite a bit of that, but definitely no ultimatums. Right. I think I probably would have walked on an ultimatum. Yeah. And a, she, she knew that to, and you know, we, we were building a life together every single day and I was asking her to do a lot. It was asking her to basically be a traditional housewife without being married. And when she, when she did agree to that without really any hesitation whatsoever, that's when I knew that it was time for us to really make it official and to really commit to building something bigger than just the two of us. And I want to set an example for my kids' a baby re repair. 0 (2m 59s): Some of the damage that may be the divorce had done a a and then also just walk the walk and general, you know, I'm, I believe it's a really important family values, a very important a building families together, a building a life together, a building, something bigger than yourself and, and getting out of yourself and not just being a, a a hundred percent focused on pleasure hedonism or just staying in the moment. That's something that I preached a lot, you know, it it's it part of my values. So this was really a natural progression. And ever since we got engaged, it's been, you know, the joy level has just increased. So there is no like, oh gosh, what did I do it? 0 (3m 41s): No, not at all of them were just very excited. 2 (3m 44s): It is going to ask. So having been married before, do you think that there's a difference between between like that level of commitment? Because so many people, especially, I guess, like millennials, so like, there is no difference between getting married, especially if your cohabitating or if you've been with someone for a certain amount of time. And I couldn't, I mean, I couldn't disagree more. I mean, I've been with my husband for 11 years and I think there's a huge difference from when we decided to take that next step of marriage versus, you know, just living together and what we thought it was building a life together. So I think there's a difference. So I'm curious your take on your take on yeah, 0 (4m 17s): A hundred percent. I mean, we were definitely building a life together, but at the same time, I was always very careful to be building a life for her just in case. And so what do I mean by that? I mean that when we moved, when she moved in with me the first time, or, you know, and when she moved in with me, I told her, look, you know, you always wanted to go back to hair school and become a hairstylist. Let's do that now. So why don't you move in? You can go to school, get your license, start your career, not have to worry about bills or anything I'll take care of, you know, and I've always been trying to improve her life in a way that was like, in case something bad happened, you know, that this wasn't wasted time for her or that she would, you know, be in a better position than when we met. 0 (5m 3s): So even though I was like helping her and we're building stuff together, it was always with this chance that we may not have been together. And I thought that that was sort of the fair and honorable thing to do. You know, I wanted her to get better and, and improve herself. And now that we're engaged and getting married and in my mind, we're already married and I just is just my wife, like the ceremony, his great. And that's all part of the process. But for me, you know, I've made a commitment already, so I'm sticking to it. And I see it as that already. Plus it just kinda fun and a, you know, Hey wife, and now, and now we're totally aligned, right? 100% till death do us part all the way to the end. 0 (5m 45s): There is no need to prepare her for what if Sarah scenarios, there's no need to make sure that she's building a career at the same time. So that just in case, you know, she is set up or whatever. No. And now we're just a a hundred percent of building towards the same goal. Building family of building a future she's is the house manager here. A she takes care of all the scheduling, all of the planning, all of the meals, all of that everything's super traditional. And that she's also going to be an events manager for the love, the order. So now that we're totally aligned, there doesn't need to be a just-in-case scenario. It, it, it has brought even more joy and pleasure too. The relationship because of that little, that little escape valve idea is gone and neither one of us need to entertain it at all. 0 (6m 31s): And so we can just think towards a future and just commit to each other and a, and commit to the life really. And a it's been great so far. It's been two weeks. 2 (6m 42s): That's exciting though. I remember that time. We were really young, I say really young, but we were young and broke and we got engaged. So it took a long time. And then we also had a lot of hiccups in that period. Is it like I was in the middle of some career changes S that were very testing to the relationship and obviously, yeah, but it, it was kind of cool. It was like the same thing. We made that commitment to each other, and it was like having faith in each other and like being able to overcome obstacles together, like regardless of how intense they were. So were you guys dating during like the rise of Jack Murphy? 2 (7m 25s): Like during the doxxing and all of that before? So she was for all of that with you too. 0 (7m 32s): She, she was with me for years before Jack Murphy. No, three years before Jack Murphy was even a thing. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. And so I had a completely different career, lived in a different place. Was it just an, a toll, had a totally different life and a totally different seeming like career trajectory and everything. And a, she was right there, threw all of that. That's amazing. And she stuck by me in ways that are just, you want ride or die a ride or die, like hardcore and a that stuck with me, you know? And it touched me and, and I've, I've heard people describe like, marriage, like find somebody, you trust who to be in your Fox hole and can be there and have your back when times are tough. 0 (8m 19s): And she did that times a million. So she, she, you know, if I met her now with my life, you know, or whatever, and, and a successful or not that I was a successful for it, but now things are a very good, but, you know, I'm always a little skeptical when people approach me now, you know, it's like, what do you, what you want for me? Is it just because I have a name or whatever, or is it because I'm a tall and a, and so it, it was nice to just have met her before all this stuff. And then on top of it, a little known fact, she was my, a copy editor while not a copy of their content editor for my book. So she coached me, she's a writer. 0 (8m 59s): She coached me through writing the book, helped me organize it. I wrote every single word, but she really hammered me over that over their head with like, this is an, a, it could be a 12 go back and do it again. Okay. I will. And so we've been working together as a team for awhile and a she's seen the whole rise and participated in the whole thing. And so I know that it's all that is real. 2 (9m 25s): Yeah. I think that there's something kind of a magical about being with someone before you just start to discover your potential. Like when you were both at the very beginning stages of discovering, like what you're capable of and then growing together, because there is like, there's just a really intense bond that's made because it's not easy. That rise is not easy, no matter what path you're taking. And then I would imagine that that's probably why so many people that are a very successful or a very famous ended up alone if they don't keep someone in that transitory period, because then you do have that skeptical mind. And you're like, well, what are your intentions? And then you probably do attract some bad actors. So it's like, how do you filter that? And then every bad experience just makes you like more and more cynical. 2 (10m 7s): So it's like such a blessing if you're able to find someone prior. Indeed, 0 (10m 11s): Indeed. And women are really good at seeing the potential in men too. So it's a girl, it's a kid. Women can a can project your future timeline. And a, even if you haven't guys, even if you haven't fully developed all the way women, can you see your potential? There is no question. And she's definitely assessing it. That's a a hundred percent true. So if they can assess it, they can see it a but yeah, it's good to, it's good to build a, you know, it's a good to build and what's interesting about status, right? Like for guys, you know, when your status is higher, it's easier to attract be to be attractive. And so there is other elements that you need to have, if you're a status, is it fully developed, you know, you, and you have to exhibit those stats, those, those, those attributes that lead toward status that show you the, it show the potential partners, is that your, and wives' that your on that path write you, you don't have to be fully formed a, a a hundred percent, but I do recommend sort of trying to get established a little bit guys before you just jumped into a marriage with just that the first person that the first person that comes along, which is kind of what I did and the first time. 0 (11m 19s): So I, I think you were a trying to get at like the difference, maybe for me this time. And I had no idea about game. I had no idea about male status hierarchy is what women really found attractive. You know, like I would just had remembered what my mom had told me or whatever, or, you know, it was the beat yourself up, whatever, you know, be authentic, but be the best version of yourself. And I just didn't, I just didn't know the game. You know, it was 25 or six. I'm thinking I met her at 20 and I just didn't know the game just to know the game and, and it, and it pushed me. 0 (12m 0s): I put myself into situation that was untenable. There was just untenable a, it wasn't going to last it wasn't going to last anyway. And then like, w we, I worked in real estate and then the real estate crash happen and all kinds of bad things happen. So it all sort of blew up all at once. But for me now it's different because I understand relationships. I understand the male-female dynamics. I understand the status and hierarchy understand the attraction triggers. I understand the sort of how it works and why to be together. Right. I, I did a series of tweets the other day on why we were getting married and the last reason I put with love. Yeah. And it's true. It is the last reason a because love is all kinds of things. 0 (12m 44s): You can have passionate, chemical love, lusty love that fades. You know, you have the love of like a good friend in a companion that builds slowly over time. And I think where people get in trouble is they can use that passionate love with like that companion love that you need to make a marriage last. And so when that passion fades before that the companion love is built. People that are wrong, that's going on because they would thought that that chemical stuff would last forever, but not, that's not to say. And I'm like, our mutual attraction has not improved every single day since we've been together. It's really remarkable when you combine like being super attracted with some of that, to somebody, with a history, with knowing everything about each other, with planning for the future. 0 (13m 35s): A and certainly in some cases with the prospect of creating life, right? Like that just changes, everything, changes, everything. And it really puts hookup culture and stuff. It makes it just look so inferior, you know, after, after a while. Yeah. 2 (13m 50s): I couldn't agree more like, despite what I guess a natural assumption would be like in my personal life, I was like, always like a serial monogamous. I was always with someone for a very long time. And then there'd be a very small gap where I was by myself. I didn't really, I didn't do the hook-up thing. I'm actually a very shy, I also had a cop dad. So in the back of my mind, it was always that I was going to get murdered. And so it just like, it, it was a fan of it. Wasn't 3 (14m 16s): Like for you, that wasn't going to be you honey. And if you 2 (14m 20s): Want to get drunk and leave with someone in a car like that can be, but I'm not going to end up in a ditch. So I just, I never really participated I'm and maybe that's kind of why I went down like the career path. I did it, it, was it a safer way to kind of explore that sexuality, not entirely risk a of risk averse or a risk proof for anything like that, but say for, but yeah, I think, I think you have to do a lot when it comes to, like you said, like building that slow side of the relationship and not just focusing on like the passion in the heat and the lust that's in the beginning. And it also think that when that's all their, it's so easy to skip over, like there really important conversations as far as your values and where you see yourself in the future. 2 (15m 8s): I have so many friends right now that just avoid that conversation with their partner, because it's too scary. And I'm like, we're in our thirties. Like, you kinda have to decide now I, as a woman, like, what do you want? Because yeah, there's like always medical intervention, but that has its risks. And personally, I kind of believe like leaving things to God are like the universe and if it's supposed to happen, it's supposed to happen. And if not, it's not. So for me personally, there was a time where I thought I wasn't going to be able to have kids. And I was exploring that, that route, like potentially doing IVF or something. And I don't know, I sat with it enough. And I'm like, it's, I think everything is kind of like that engaged in difference energy, like yeah. 2 (15m 51s): Try and show up and do what you have to do. But if your not indifferent to the outcome, I think you were just forcing things too much. And then that's when you're not going to start getting that serendipity or like those blessings or, oh my gosh, that you won't believe who I ran into. And then that connection led to like a book or whatever it is. So it's like walking that fine line, but I know not everyone's going to agree with it. Yeah. You know, 0 (16m 15s): Your, if your friends are worried about having those conversations about values with their partners, the people, their dating, I think that it says everything. It says it, they probably knew what the answers are and they probably know that their incompatible on there just sort of whistling past the graveyard as it were. I never understood what it meant when they said find someone that shares your values. I didn't understand what that meant when I was a kid values. Weren't something that we talked about in my household. I'm sorry, Rosie. That's my petty. She a barks around this time. She's always on every podcast. So I call it. 2 (16m 49s): No, you're fine. I've got two, two. 0 (16m 51s): Okay. And I didn't understand what the, what they meant by values, shared values, common values. And now I, now I absolutely want a a hundred percent and impartially that it was because I did it. I also didn't know what my values were. It took me a long time to just figure out who I was and what I wanted and what I valued. Yeah. And, and what my core values were and looking back on it, oh, you know, my ex wife and I did that, don't share any core values. And so we were doomed whether, you know, whether or not I knew it from that from the beginning, but a, my fiance or my wife now, she, and I definitely share our core values. 0 (17m 33s): It was a miracle that, that we came together anyway, because we didn't come together right away over the, for those core values. It's not like we met at church, but we a, we a, we, we realized very quickly that we did have a core values and getting into this political thing. It revealed even more a, of our shared values. And it, it turns out that her family, a American <inaudible>, she grew up listening to like rush Limbaugh lunch, you know, with her grandfather, as in, when she was a kid. So a, it worked, it, it was worked out very well for us on, on many different levels. But it's not to say that you have to have shared politics that really helps, but the values and today, because our politics are so polarized, a long values, they're not, is not polarized a brown, like around an debates on taxes or a trade policy is these are, these are the core value systems separate there, there, there, opposed to it there, like diabolically opposed or diametrically opposed rather. 0 (18m 38s): And so, yeah, maybe politics, maybe, maybe it's not a good idea to have a cross politics right now. And that's, that's an unfortunate actually, if you think about it for our country. 2 (18m 47s): Yeah. That's really interesting. So would you say that most people are a political, or do you think most people fall into one bucket or the other? 0 (18m 55s): That's a good question. It's really hard for me to, to separate sort of, of my personal day to day experience in which everybody is just hyper, hyper political vs like a just normal, a normal folks. I think most people are, are a less informed and, and, and passive, passive, let's say passive, they may be political, but they're, they're mostly passively political. They accept what they're told by trusted, previously trusted sources. And so a there passive, and I would think, I say the difference for me is that I'm active, proactive. And that's, those are the kinds of people that I really would like to associate with are people who are active in their decision-making about their belief system and about what narratives they hold true and what narratives they use to propel themselves forward. 0 (19m 44s): Passive people are uninteresting to me and dangerous and dangerous, especially today, 2 (19m 52s): Passive, entirely, or like 0 (19m 55s): That the passive in their pond and political. Because if your, if your, if you're a passive, if you are not active or proactive about deciding what information is true, what narratives function for you, you can have a self-defeating narratives inserted into your brain. For example, if you just listen to what the government says about nutrition, right? What happens? You end up fat. If you listen to what the government says about going to college and borrowing money, you end up in, you know, $200,000 in debt. If you listened to the American dream, you'll end up tying to a mortgage and tie it to a corporation. So if you just passively accept what we're told you, end up fat, sick, broke, and debt chain to a desk. 0 (20m 37s): So that, I mean, let's be proactive about what we think and proactive about what we do. And so to me, that sort of the separation that really comes down to the intention, intention. I liked people that lived their life intentionally. Right. You do, you live your life with intention. I'd like 2 (20m 54s): To think so. Yeah. My, my husband would probably say a little bit too much sometimes, but I would say in 2020, I, I mean, I had to like take breaks from social media and trying to see what the fuck was happening everywhere. Just having like a new kid. And I guess realizing how vulnerable he is between, especially between like zero and seven, right. To who he's around, what he's being taught, basically, anything there that can influence him because he's in a download of a stage right there just kind of existing in this data wave. So it's whatever they hear. They just sure. That's true. Right. There is no filtration system really at that age. 2 (21m 35s): So I just saw like a lot of craziness happening. And my husband's like, I wouldn't say he's, he's definitely not a passive person. And he's more of like a futurist person. Right? So like he spends his time reading, like Peter Diamandis articles and talking about exponential technologies. Like that's what gets him really excited. So when you scale down to what, like what's happening now, he just, he can't get there. Right? Like its just that he doesn't connect with it. So he would see me getting into a tizzy and he'd be like, you need to calm down there. It's not that big of a deal. And I was like, what it is. And then I think what got him to flip a little bit was when we were looking at M preschools. So this is that going to sound crazy. 2 (22m 16s): And I have a son set it a couple times on previous podcast, but there's this, there is this two schools locally that are like the best private schools in town. One of them teaches anti-racism to 18 month olds, 18 month olds based on the color of their skin. Right. So here's, I mean, it's already a, I think a problem in general, but just to kind of show you how full of shit that is. It's like my lineages Japanese, like I'm first generation, Japanese American. Like my dad came here from Japan. My grandfather literally was in Auschwitz. 2 (22m 55s): So he's my baby is blonde haired, blue eyed. And you're going to tell him that he's like a bat oppressive person. Both of those people were literally in camps. Like those communities were in the camps. So that <inaudible> where is the fax on any of this? Write it just like emotionally driven. Okay. And then the other school, the one that we ended up deciding to put him in doesn't teach by like human biology to a point because they don't want to get into M sex, sex and gender. So they just eliminated the subject entirely to make it less controversial. So it was like, well these are our options. And this is happening in North Carolina, like where we live and this is based off of politics. So you have to get involved. 2 (23m 36s): So now he's, you know, listening to some people, reading some articles, finding out what the school board meetings are because now it's affecting the home front, 0 (23m 44s): Right? When you have the kids makes everything much more intense and it makes the here and now a very important my mom, my mom does this to me. We're a, we'll talk about politics. We'll talk about stuff. And she is a big, whatever it is, it just works itself out. It was like, oh the pendulum will swing back. Well, okay mom. But in the meantime, in order for that to happen, human beings have to do things, right. They have to take action. History is made on the margins by individuals taking action and you can't not everybody can sit back and just be like, oh, just wait for the pendulum swing or whatever. 0 (24m 24s): And 10 generations they'll have figured it out. No somebody has to figure it out each step of the way. And a, when you have kids, that's interesting. Cause it, it doesn't give you a longterm perspective, but it also really brings you right down into the moment. Like what are these people saying to my kids and Y and what kind of, of education or they going to get you guys knock, consider a homeschooling. We 2 (24m 47s): Did. So my problem with homeschooling, I think there's a lot that you learn from being away from your parents. Definitely like you learn that, like you learned your own autonomy that you learn to be independent. You learn that you can be safe outside of them. And then, you know, who am I without those influences? And I think that super important, there is also this quote that was never underestimate the importance of exposing them to shitty people. And that kind of made me feel a little bit more at ease. So like he has to see some shitty people and the consequences of, of that kind of thinking and that kind of behavior and where that leads you. 2 (25m 28s): Right. So I think I wanted to put him in a bubble for too long because I, I was like, you can't see anything bad or you can't hear anything that's too crazy. Cause I don't want you to believe those things. But I think it's probably just as important for him to be exposed to those bad ideas so that he can learn to critically think. Cause I don't want him. I mean, I hope that he takes a lot of my lessons and my teachings to heart, but I do want him to, you know, maybe challenge me and critically think because otherwise I raised a sheet, right? So they say, you want to cultivate a child. You don't wanna raise a child. 'cause you raise sheep and cattle and sheep and cattle are a part of a herd there. Not individually. 0 (26m 4s): Yeah. It's interesting to watch my teenagers learn through experience the things that I have been telling them for a year and a, my son seems more inclined to take my work for it, in fact, so much so that I worry he is going to be too based because he'll just hear me working and be like, I can you believe blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but not get the whole context, you know, and not get the whole context that ma we'll make you a human. Do you, if you just think about like the base, the most base comment you can think of it and then forget there is, there has to be all of this empathy and understanding or a wrapped around it in order to make you not a monster. 0 (26m 50s): Ah, that part sometimes I worry about with him. So I give him all of that information, but then a, my daughter are on the other hand, I swear just either bounces straight off of her face as it goes in one year out the other, whatever it is. But then she's experiencing things right now in school, you know, with a, you know, people in the authority and then her piers of she's really experiencing all of the issues of the day firsthand. And so she's learning through experience of having to deal with shitty people. You know, she is learning sometimes about the unfortunate drama that tends to appear in groups of women. 0 (27m 35s): She's learning about all of that stuff. And now she's also learning about how authority works and how people get blacklisted and all kinds of things. So it's, it's interesting to watch her learn this, their experience, but she has a frame of reference for these experiences, whether she'll admit it or not. My words are in her head somewhere. I believe that there is in there somewhere. So when these things happen, she is like a reference point. So I hear what you saying. And I have made it a very, a prime, like first goal in my life and just constantly be talking to them and constantly be sharing ideas and, and exploring things. And man, do I feel like a dad 'cause like the most simplest thing will happen. 0 (28m 16s): I'll bake. Well, you know what? You really zoom out and take a look at this from this perspective, blah, blah, blah. It's so annoying and I can hear it. It just coming out of my mouth and I'm like, God, I'm just a dad. I'm being, so dad is a lesson. Yes. And the kid there that you can hear them rolling their eyes, but I can't stop just like I can't stop with the dad jokes. I can you tell them coming out of my mouth? And I'm like, oh my God is so bad that it just comes out. And you know, these are the things, these are just things about being a dad that, you know, I'd make I make in front of myself. But it is, it is one of the most charming and most fun parts about it. There's an interesting sense of freedom, sense of freedom and being a father with your kids, cause you can't be goofy and you can't be kind of stupid. 0 (29m 2s): You can just relax in a way that you certainly cannot. Women, you know, are in public or whatever. The there's, there's just a different side of yourself that it can come out. And it's a, it's a lot of fun. I'm having a blast. Yeah. 2 (29m 15s): Its, it, it, can't not change you right. There is. I always say there is the me before I was a mom and then there's like the me after, and then everything just looks different. And you think your just so much more S hopefully more self-aware cause they pick up on everything there. They also say more is caught than taught too. Right? So it was like, are you saying one thing and then behaving in a different way. And then that makes me feel better because I'm like, well, if I lead by example, when he goes out into this crazy thing called the world, then maybe he'll be like, okay, well this is how I'm going to navigate it. One, 0 (29m 47s): One place I've become extraordinarily aware of them, observing more than they listen is now that I'm teaching my daughter how to drive. And that sounds terrifying. Well, on one hand it's been amazing because she and I have found a new thing to Monde over, which is a road rage go faster. But then, and then as we grow, because we drive a lot for like sporting events and tournaments and all kinds of things. And so as I find myself on the highway doing my thing, I'm not the guy in the right lane, just by the way, I'm like, Hmm, maybe their taking this lesson here, but I'm like, please don't ever drive like me. 0 (30m 31s): Don't ever don't ever. And the, and she does that and she's too cautious to the straight ahead for that. She has to take her a right turn and three miles, she gets on the right lane and she's like, just wanna be prepared. She, the first sport she is, it was the first board is the first one is start driving. It's a wild man. Its wild. I'm getting an old, I guess I don't feel like it. But when you look around and he got, you know, kids driving is like, okay, that's not young. 2 (30m 57s): And where did that baby go? 0 (30m 58s): Oh yeah. You mean me? I don't know it now. Where did she go? I know the time just got it. It goes by so fast. I know it's trite to say, but they do grow up very quickly. And then one day I'd be like, damn, I already get sad thinking about her leaving. I did the same for mines a year and a half 2 (31m 19s): Years for that. You know? Or do you think about him meeting is wife and moving away? No pressure or anything? No, no, no. None at all. No. That's like the hard part, right? One of my friends said something like so powerful to me and, and she was like the most, the thing that a mom needs to realize is that you are going to go from being the most important woman in his life too, being the least and whoa, that like kind of hit me cause its like, you want him to have find a partner that he loves and respects and puts her above all else. Right? Like I want that for him. That's a healthy dynamic. But for that to happen, I have to let go. And you see so many moms that don't because they're like, well that's my baby. 2 (32m 1s): And that's, you know, I'm his first love and it's like me, me, me, and it's all about the mom. And it's not about, what's actually best for your, you are now an adult Kidd. So that is going to be challenging. 0 (32m 12s): You know, a I'm trying to relate to that, but I can't because my mom and I never had relationship like that at all. And a, and I'm realizing now, like there's just a huge impact. Your relationship with your parents have on your behavior. Mom, mom, my mom, my dad and I very bad relationships. House of crisis, drug abuse, I'll call abuse, violence, lots of bad things. And so I, I never had like formed healthy relationships with the other one of them. And so I started dating at a really early age. So I started, I was a sexually active, a very early and also into a crime and stealing things and just being a hoodlum in general, a as a teenager. 0 (32m 56s): And you know, I also learn that too. I can look back at that. My early dating and sexual relationships were about filling an empty void. They were about trying to find mom basically like love, you know, like where's love. And like somebody just paid attention to me and it was like, wow, this must be love. Okay. I love you. You know, and I looked back on that as a teen and is a, in my early twenties realizing that it was too early for me to be forming long-term relationships because I was still healing and creating like a, a, a, a unified self ahh, and healing from my childhood trauma. 0 (33m 36s): And so that was definitely to her too early when it's fulfilling a need, right. A or filling a hole rather. But then I see my kids totally completely uninterested in dating as teenagers. I'm like, I don't know what's going on. It's kind of weird. Totally not criminals fully, not stealing things, not sneaking out, not lying and cheating. And I had an a, a, an aha moment the other day. I'm like, oh, this is what happens when people feel loved and secured and they're safe and they have consistency and everything is there and their nurtured, they don't have the lash out. They don't have to seek early sexual relationships for a validation. They don't have to have relationships that are doomed to start or a doomed to fail from the start. 0 (34m 19s): And that's the power of, of a loving family. And it really makes a big difference for all intents and purposes. I was basically like parentless right now. And that's what happened to me. And it took me years, many years of trial and error, crisis crashing and burning bad relationships, divorces therapy, yoga, meditation, introspection, you know, like it took me years of proactive, personal work to really understand and process, and then fill in the holes from the inside out until I was ready then to match up with someone on my level as it were as a healed human. 0 (35m 5s): And so seven years ago when I met my now soon to be a wife, you know, I was already, I was healed from the inside out. And, and I think that's partly why, you know, our relationship has legs because we both came too it ready for it and not searching for some sort of solution. 2 (35m 27s): That's so huge. I think most people that end up in relationships, you're trying to find someone that makes you feel better, right? Like, no matter like where, what level you're at, and then you find someone of at your frequency. So if you are not healed, you're attracting other people that are also in pain and then two people in pain together. Like you can't find love. Right? You can find companionship, you can find companionship at any level, but to find love that has its own frequency. Right? So you have to be radiating at the same thing. So you said you did yoga was part of your, your journey. Definitely. Oh, I think that's amazing for me. Like when I go to a really good yoga class and an instructor that just, it knows the right thing to say. 2 (36m 9s): And I mean, you store energy in your body, right. And your store traumas in your body. And there's like so much information out there to prove that this is true. And when you aren't used to moving, which is a lot of people, aren't rightly you get depressed or angry. And like, you just kind of go on the same cycle. So your not moving your body, you get into these poses that unlock like a memory, almost write, like you can get into a pose and you're like, you get snapped back 15 years. And then you're that little kid going through something. And then I've seen people and I've been one of them that just starts crying because you're like, I'm having this amazing release right now. Absolutely. As like, as a man, I feel like so many men think it's too feminine. 2 (36m 50s): Like that's too feminine of a, an, an activity to do. Like, what was that moment that was like, this is going to be good for me. This is something that I need for my journey. Like, do you remember that, that aha moment? 0 (37m 1s): Well, first it's a, it's important to remember there was like a million different kinds of yoga. Right? Right. There is certainly some yoga that is not for men masculine energy. Right. There's definitely yoga that lacks all masculine energy, but there's definitely some very, very strong yoga that first of all, a yoga was developed for men in the first place. A if you go back and you know, and you read about it's history and development, I found Ashtanga to be what I needed. Ashtanga is a set of poses that never changes. It's a progression. You do the same thing over and over and over again, every single time there's three different series and it's really, it's powerful stuff. 0 (37m 45s): And it's strong. It's strong. Like you have to be strong to do it. I mean, popping up into a freestanding. Handstand is not a week, but a week move right now. And I learned that in the first of all. Yes, you're absolutely right about store and trauma in your body. I have definitely had major release on the mat. There is no question, especially like in pigeon and some few other like places where you can really open up the hips and stuff. And it's really, I mean, it sounds hokey, but you can feel it come out of you and everyone that is kind of been through this understands and relates. 0 (38m 25s): There's just a moment at which you feel the release and it's cathartic. And it really is, is the only called it a moving meditation write if you, if you are doing it right, you're doing, you're breathing, you're synchronizing. You're breathing with your movements, your blocking, everything else out. Its a very spiritual experience. It it's a very calming and centering and a it's a hell of a workout. And M when I, when I got separated from my ex wife, I moved down to like the hip part of town and a, there was a yoga studio and a whole foods behind my apartment. And I was like, all right, let's just give this a shot. And a after the first few weeks I was totally hooked about a year is membership. I was there every single day. 0 (39m 6s): I went to a, I did yoga every single day in class two or three years. Wow. Yeah. And M man, it, it was fantastic. It changed my life completely. I am not, I'm not a practicing now, but I do carry with me all of the benefits in memories and, and building a community. It was part of it like the community that I tapped into they're it gave me a lot of strength and a lot of power. It meant a lot of friends and met a lot of interesting people, had a lot of fun coming out of my divorce in the yoga studio next to the whole foods and the head part of the town. It was a lot of fun. It was definitely a happening place to be. And I stood out I'm 64 and I'm like to 50 at, I can do all of the poses. 0 (39m 54s): So like I stood out big time and a, it was, it, it was a lot of fun in that regard too, but I highly recommend it. There is nothing soft about it whatsoever. And it certainly, it works together with a strength training program for men and women too. So I have nothing but a great things to say about yoga really changed my life. 2 (40m 13s): Yeah, me too. I need to get back into it. I was actually just thinking that the other day. Cause I just started getting more consistent with my workout because COVID happened and I just couldn't find a Jim that didn't have masks and I'm like, I'm not lifting with a mask. So I'm just going to wait until the world goes back to normal. And here we are. So I'm like the two, three weeks in it and I feel amazing. I'm like, I should have just done the mask 'cause and you know, sucked it up because I needed to move. It's like, I am a different person when I don't work out. And especially like that whole transition into becoming a mom. I think it happens to a lot of women. You get riddled with anxiety after I'm and I don't know what that's about. I don't know if it's because you're going into this new chain, like this new person or because now you're worried about this little person all of the time, but for me, I like it just couldn't figure it out side. 2 (41m 1s): I do a lot of work to get rid of it. And finally it's gone. We're like a year and a half in, but it took it a probably, probably hormones that to you. Yeah, 0 (41m 9s): Yeah. Hormones many. It, it, pregnancy is a big time hormone shift for men too. It lowers your testosterone. A if you're a married to a woman and she is pregnant, it gives birth or your testosterone drops. And a, if you notice, I dunno if it happened to your husband happened to me, happens to a lot of guys. But when they say sympathy, weight, that's not because you're wife is eating a quote for two, that is your hormones are all fucked up. And like, you just can't eat as well. And you just get fat, you get soft, you get fat, your estrogen goes up, your testosterone goes down and there's really a evolutionary reasons why, right. It's like when your wife, when your partner has gone through a traumatic event of like delivering a baby and the baby's vulnerable, the last thing the world needs is for men to be all risk-taking and competitive and fighting an out. 0 (41m 57s): They're trying to fuck the next girl. Like you wanna be at home. So it's natural. So guy's, you really have to watch out. You really have to watch out during that time period donate. Yeah. No that actually happened there. 2 (42m 8s): Yeah. He is still working on some of the pregnancy. 0 (42m 12s): Yeah. I mean, it's the thing, it sounds like a biological thing is a biological thing. Is that it also helps keep the competition away during that time. 2 (42m 22s): Yeah. It's so interesting. I love like evolutionary psychology and I've a loose evolutionary biology. It's fascinating. So with that, and you also had this Twitter thread thread that was getting a lot of action just the other day. And you said the word you cannot say as a man and their relationship, which 3 (42m 43s): Is it is which one it is. Yeah. 2 (42m 48s): So why do you think that caused such a stir? 0 (42m 51s): Oh, well, first of all, I believe in a a hundred percent second, the second of all of it, it was a little trollie too. I know that this is a way to get people's reaction to it. And the context is I was talking about my engagement and again, all the reasons why we got married or getting married and a one of them, you know, one of the tweets was that a, she has submitted to me willfully, I've asked of her, she's given in it. And it sounds so much more dramatic. Not really is that it sounds so much more dramatic than it really is a, but how far back do I want to go with this? 0 (43m 32s): When I very first, first started writing online and anonymously, I wrote a lot about sex and relationships. And one of the things I did write about was like dominant submissive relationships. And part of the reason that I was so interested in exploring that and writing about it it's because I felt like it was a natural dynamic that people have definitely pushed to the side. People have have disregarded hierarchies. They've disregarded. The difference is biologically and emotionally between men and women. And they've disregarded the nature of leadership. And I wrote a lot about dominance and submission in a, in a totally sexual con sexual context in that most women find, I think a and in my experience, but maybe I'm just like a magnet for it that a, they enjoy being submissive to the right man. 0 (44m 21s): It's not about being submissive too. Men. It's about submitting too, a benevolent leader or someone who cares about you. And who's willing to put in that extra effort and, and to engage a duty of care and protection and provision. And it can be kinky if that's like not your day-to-day life, but for us, it a is our day to day life. And she wants it. I wanted it. It is the more natural nature, like way for us to interact. And it's not about dominating somebody, right? It's about being a leader, right? It's about, I wrote about it. I call that a benevolent dictatorship, right? Its thoughtful stewardship. 0 (45m 2s): You know, it, it's a, it's ultimately making a decision and setting the agenda, but consulting along the way. So on our first date, we went out, we went out and a we're looking at the menus and I'm like, so what do you think you're going to want to get it? She's like, I'll have the Phish or whatever that, that sounds good. The waiter comes over. It. I'm like, Hey, how's it going? And she'll have the fish and I'll have the steak, boom leadership. It appears as though that I was being dominant over her, but really I had asked her what she wanted in the first place. And I just took the lead and telling the waiter. She loved, it, tells the story all the time, but it's not about me just deciding what she's going to have for dinner. You know, it's about listening and engaging. 0 (45m 44s): And in order to be an order in order to be good at this type of dynamic, you know, the dominant person needs to be very empathetic. You need to be able to observe and appreciate body language and subtle signals and whether or not somebody is actually telling the truth, but like not to be, you know, maliciously deceptive, but like if they're being honest with themselves or if there it just telling you kind of what they think that you want to hear, you have to be able to decipher all of the stuff. So like this is not a, an easier route, right? There is more responsibility. You have to be more engaged as it has to be more thoughtful and less if you don't. 0 (46m 24s): And you're just a few is the beasts, you know, just like a scum bag, but this is, this is a much more nuanced. And, and then I used the word in the context of marriage also to elude to. So I'm a Christian and values, which I am not necessarily Christian. And I do appreciate them. Ah, but it was a multi-layered tweet, which is why it got so much of a tension. Now I wrote a piece way long ago that I got in trouble for where I described and encouraged feminists to seek it out a dominant to help them get their head. Right. Oh boy. Yeah. And, and even to, even to seek out role-playing circumstances in which, you know, the, the, our word that comes into play, right. 0 (47m 8s): Keep, but all consensual, all just role, play, all just exploration. And a, I wrote it because, because feminists don't think that women have agency, they get upset there. Like women can do whatever they want, as long as it's these things that we tell them to do. And when a woman acts with agency to do something else, the feminists freak out. So the, the, the point of the article is very trollie on one hand, on the other hand, yes. I do believe a good dominant can help a feminist see the light, but you know, it, it's got it. It actually got me into trouble when I got doxed, my employer a found that post and like in our deposition with the lawyers and everything, and there like reading this article that I wrote a non-misleading about rough sex and choking women and like consensual consent, what are they call it now? 0 (48m 2s): A consensual non-consent that's too much for me. That's too many words, but there they are reading this thing out loud to me and a deposition with like a thousand dollars worth of lawyers. They're and I'm like, oh, I can't believe this was my life. But their, there it was. So yeah, I used the word submit. I mean, it, she means it, it it'll be a part of our vows, a and the compliments that is duty. I have a duty, I have a duty to protect and to provide and to care and to help build the life and to look out for her and to take her thoughts into consideration and to be thinking about her a at all times. So it's, it's an, it's an exchange. 0 (48m 42s): It's a, a consensual power exchange. It is not unilateral. It's not forceful unless you decide on that. It's just a, a, you know, it's the natural way for me. 2 (48m 58s): Yeah. You're not like a tyrant and about it. There is an interesting, there is an interesting study. So one of my girlfriends, she's a neuroscientist and she's studied sex. And she spent a lot of her time actually studying kink. What's interesting is the more feminist a woman was like, the more she believed in that, like the bigger and badder and more for lack of better words, alpha, the dude's that she would seek out. Or, and she's like, there's something there. It's almost like, you know, you need someone to be able to kind of check whatever level that you are at. And there was a time probably not too, too far in the past where if I saw something like that, where someone was like, you have to submit, or, you know, marriage, isn't an equal partnership. 2 (49m 44s): Like, I mean, it is, but like you are both leading the marriage. I would of been like, that's a misogynist and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just as powerful, if not more powerful in, like, there was just so much masculine energy coming from this little person. And there was actually a little bit of residual hanging out there that I didn't even realize until like my husband and I are constantly going to like retreats and like training things just to constantly be growing together and like have someone else from the outside looking in saying, this is how you can improve. And like, this is where we see seams in the relationship. And like, let's fortify that. So we did this thing called principal Savage and what's, it's the coolest thing I've ever done to. 2 (50m 27s): So really bad-ass special ops trainer and a really bad-ass psychologist. And you have a knife on you, you have live ammo on you, your doing obstacle courses. And I'm like shooting choruses and fighting off to a hundred pound. Dude's that come at you and they'll break down psychologically why you did what you did. They'll see how him and I work as like, as a couple. And they challenged me on that. Like I had, there was this little part after one of the training's I'm like the days are a super long and you have like these fireside chats. So there, like, you have to say, what were the lines to him? 2 (51m 8s): Like you are my king, I will follow you anywhere. And there was a third one O and I belonged to you. Cool, solid, holy cow. Was that hard for me to say? And I'm telling you, I know. And I, like, I was like, why is this here? And I had just gotten done with like this neurofeedback training a couple weeks prior. And they also challenged me on like the feminine and masculine energy. And they were saying like, I'm presenting to masculine and that's hurting the relationship. And I was like, what are they talking about? And this comes up again. That was like, wow, there's something here. So this is in front of a group of people. And I'm being asked to be so vulnerable and like work this out, right? 2 (51m 49s): Like, well, why am I hesitating? Why is there a lump in my throat? And it's because I felt like I was losing some kind of agency by that. Like, I was no longer his equal if I said that, and that's not the case. Right. It's not that we're not equals, but you do have to have a designated leader. And that's the reason that most companies, most successful companies don't have two CEOs. You might have a COO. Right. So there also very important and have a lot to do. Just like you were saying, your fiance wife helps run like your events and scheduling. And she has a very important role. So it was not to say that you don't matter, but it's to say, when it comes down to it, someone has to take the lead. And then you, for some reason with me, I was like, well, why can't it be me? 2 (52m 31s): And I know that that's ridiculous. And I talked it through with my husband. He's like, okay, well, is I do agree. I think it's supposed to be him, but it let's say there's the zombie apocalypse. Right like, what am I going to do? Like, what is, I don't know. The first thing is that the generator, I am not going to be able to fight off bad guys. Like I'm not gonna be able to protect are the, our location. And like, there's all of these things I'm going to rely on him for. And it's not to say I'm useless, but who am I going to fall back on? And I would hope that it is me falling back on him and not the other way, otherwise we're fucked. 0 (53m 2s): Right? Well, the biology has so much to do with the right size. You know, I'm designed to kill bad guys and animals, right? And, and so let's put me where I can specialize in my highest and best use. I'd read the other day. And I tweeted it a, we protect women because they protect everything else. So there's, you know, you are protecting my children and the home and all these things that are more than that are so important in part of the problem is that feminism has degraded the value of housekeeping in house management and loving family, and is being dedicated to creating time and events and meals and gatherings, et cetera, and creating a home. 0 (53m 45s): It's been denigrated, a masculine ideals were put forth, is the new feminine ideals, a FA if women could only just be more like men, no, and were learning that, and we're seeing how it doesn't play out in the longterm. And we're seeing how women who, and who believe that are unhappy when they seek out a man that they feel like they could be an equal to physically. And in every way, you know, that all commercial, anything that you can do, I can do better. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But I can't do a lot of things that she can do. Right. But back to your comment about like pimples kinks, I've read studies. And I interviewed a couple of sex experts very early on in my podcast and career. 0 (54m 28s): And a, one of the things that came back very consistently was that people on the right or conservative who are in committed, exclusive monogamous relationships have fantasies about group sex in threesomes, mostly. And people are on the left, a who are in a gala, Terry in relationships where their, both the same and anything that you can do, I can do better. A, the women fantasize about being dominated. And I'm a missing the word now, impact not bonded, not discipline, but whatever impact stuff being spanked. Right. So, you know, if the more egalitarian there a relationship, the more they fantasize about being dominated. 0 (55m 11s): So there is some element there of just like wanting the thing that you don't have. Right. And, and then I, I joked at the time that traditionalist who are on the right, who are living a full time, trad life with the wife at home and whatever, it's almost like a 24, 7 Dom subs, sort of a kinky relationship. If you're coming at it from the perspective of the left and for me now, and this is just our life, this is just our dynamic. It's the way that we live. And it's, it's unique. It's a United right. A it's the same at the dinner table and out in public, as it is in the bedroom. It's very interesting now to have this total, a unity and congruence in every which way possible and a, she does not identify as a feminist and yet she's accomplished and has done the things that she wants to do and is not afraid to take charge and is not afraid to be a leader, but she leads on my delegation. 0 (56m 8s): So like, for example, I'll be like, honey, we're going to have a BBQ here. We are going to have 50 people. And she goes, okay. And she knows it's her job to take care of it. So she, she goes and she plans it. And then she comes back to me with a list of things to do it. I'm like, okay. So, and then I do all of the things on the list. Now who's in charge. Is it her? Because she gave me the list of things to do, or is it me? Because I set the agenda. It's kind of hard to tell, but we're both being a leadership. I'm setting the, the agenda, picking the songs of destination. And then she's like the COO, she figures out how to make it happen. And then I'm also the muscle. So it's like, go move this thing and pick this thing up and build this thing and take the trash out. 0 (56m 47s): Okay. That's fine. That's, that's an acceptable role for me, as long as I'm also the leader, if you're so like a, a honey do list as it were, I'm a, I'm all over the place right now, whatever is a honeydew list. You know, if that's your life, man, that sucks. That's no good. If you just come home and she's like, here is a shift of a list of the things for you to do. And you didn't actually help set the agenda. Yeah. That's bad boys. That's bad. 2 (57m 13s): Yeah. Mine has to ask for that. So he, otherwise it, it will, he'll never remember. So you just have like a thing on the fridge, because again, like I'm not going to muscle it. And if I do it, I tried like, you have this entryway. And I tried putting up this ki rack and he's like, wait for me to get home. And I was like, no, I think I got it because like, he is busy and I'm like your not going to get too it for three weeks. So I'll S I'll just put it out. It's falling off of the wall right now. 3 (57m 36s): It sounds familiar. 2 (57m 38s): Like, just wait. Yeah. So when it comes, do it in three weeks, 0 (57m 42s): If you get through in three weeks, my memory has gotten worse as we've been together longer too. I swear. I swear. I'm listening to her. I swear. I swear. But then the next day, surely if you just talked about that, you don't know, honey, sorry, I'll get to it. And three weeks, 2 (57m 59s): And he has the exact same way. You think there's something about it? Like being present, that's a little bit easier for women possible. Yeah. So with, would you say that feminism is at odds with traditional masculinity? You can, they coexist? 0 (58m 18s): No. Yes and no. Yes. Feminism is his is at an exact opposite of traditional masculinity of traditionalism in general. Right? It's progressive. It's meant to be anti traditional. It's meant to say all things older, bad, all things new are good. A it's meant to obliterate gender roles. It's meant to obliterate the ideas of masculinity and femininity, you know, queer right. Queer. When I was younger men weird and it meant gay. Now it means to blur the lines. It's a verb. Now it's not even a noun. It's a verb. It means to, to, to, to blur the boundaries so that we all become the same thing. 0 (59m 1s): And when we are all the same thing, and then we're all, nothing, there is nothing positive about modern day feminism. Do I believe that women should have the right to open up a checking account and get a credit card and buy a house and travel and vote and all those things? Of course I do. Do I believe a female agency? Yes. I've taken a lot of shit over the years for defending female agency. Do I recommend that you behave in certain? Yes. But am I going to put you in jail for it now, but feminism does not have anything positive to say about women. It doesn't have anything positive to say about men. And all it really wants is for women to become men, men that they don't like. So none of it, it makes a lot of it makes any sense. 0 (59m 41s): And it, as women age who believe in feminism, there is now who are art and feminist is the one who believes they can have it all. You could put off weddings in marriage and babies till their mid and late thirties. All of these, these people, our growing up on happy. And I believe that it is going to take a whole generation of miserable women and men for the younger kids to look up to them and be like, oh, I definitely don't want that. I definitely don't want that. So I'm going to do something different. And that's going to be more powerful than any Twitter thread or YouTube channel or lecture from dad about the evils of feminism or any of that. 0 (1h 0m 27s): A just observing unhappy people is going to be more powerful for the kids. And of course the kids are gonna rebel anyway. So a feminism is the establishment than their going to rebel against that. And that's interesting, you know, for years and years now, a, I think Gavin McInnes, Paul Watson, Paul, Joseph Watson, and me all around the same time. He said that conservativism is the new punk. And we kind of fought over who said it first for a little bit, many years ago, but that's the truth. I'm the establishment is now a feminist theory of it. It is now a critical race theory. It is all the stuff that is the establishment. It's the president. It's the Congress is in the university is the media is everywhere. 0 (1h 1m 7s): So it to be, you know, someone who doesn't believe everything old is bad and who doesn't believe everything new as good a that is actually the punk counterculture, a position to take, getting married and being happy about it. Inviting God into your relationship with your, with your woman is it feels, it feels like it feels like a punk move. I mean, you know, a counterculture move at this point. I'm and so many other elements of traditionalism and essential ism, right? Just understanding that we're different based on our bodies, you're designed to produce a human being and to nurture it and to literally feed it from your breast, right? 0 (1h 1m 47s): That's not the same kind of body required to go out and kill tigers. And like, you know, till the fields and whatever, it's just not the same. And if people were just honest about, and this is why, again, I'm all over a place, this is why the trans thing is such an issue is because at once there saying biology has nothing to do with it. And then also they're saying, well, if you want to be a man, all you have to do is inject yourself with testosterone. So that is one reason why I picked up big time on the trans issue, partially because it's abusive and horrible children, partially because it, it is inherently a contradictory and reveals all of the madness about the stuff. 0 (1h 2m 29s): Yes. Masculinity can come in a vial. It can, it comes right out of your balls. It is a chemical at times that that Def, that pushes you, anybody that that's experimented with testosterone or taking testosterone replacement therapy, they can tell you firsthand more testosterone feels like, well, a lot more confidence, more aggression, more risk-taking more competitiveness. It's so clear that there is a biological connection to who we are as people and gender and sexuality. Despite the fact that everybody's saying right now that everybody has the same. And it doesn't matter if you just call yourself a, a woman you're a woman. No. And you can compete in the Olympics. 0 (1h 3m 9s): I, I, I feel like that this is such a M absurd farcical moments that like any minute somebody is going to be like, oh, and seeing, Aw, that was hilarious. Everybody you'd been pranked, but know this is, this is a reality. There is actually going to be women with testicles competing at the frickin Olympics. Do you think so? Oh, I know. So there is a New Zealand, a weightlifter, or that it just got added to the team. That was a man up until just recently. Hmm. 2 (1h 3m 40s): So how do you see that story? Ending 0 (1h 3m 43s): Tears, tears. I think actually look a lot, a white women have been leading this effort of just ruined in the world, basically. Right? And, and it will be a conservative women that lead the effort back. And by this, I mean, you can see it happening. For example, in Loudon county, in Virginia, they are tired of having their kids thought that their racist, when they find out at home at the kitchen table, what's happening in schools. That is when people, mama bear, she is motivated, right. And she's out there taking the action and, and this CRT an elementary school's is going to be, it, it, it is partially in the red pill have all red pill's to wake people up. 0 (1h 4m 29s): Hmm. When it comes home too, the everyday Americans kitchen table, I think that's going to be, that's going to be helpful in accelerating the inevitable, which is the sum sort of a collapse of the ideology, because there is no logic, no value as no principal is no God, no history, no nothing. So it can't last forever. It can last for a long time. It can do a lot of damage. But I do believe that the more middle American women find out about what's happening in their schools, the shorter, the time is left for all this other nonsense. Also it's like, what happens when you're a girl like a man, if my girl and her sport got to her senior year in high school, and all of a sudden she's competing against actual testing, the testicle having women. 0 (1h 5m 21s): I mean, those kinds of moments too, are going to wake people up. 2 (1h 5m 26s): Yeah. I think that's also is going to need to be done is just enough parents, like seeing their biological girls getting wrecked, right? Like there's going to have to be enough pain. And you're like, well, this just isn't fair that you see so many things on social media where they're like, well, there just run faster. Then you'll be the fastest girl. I'm like, that's not how it works. One of my M trainers was saying that if I think it was Venus, it was Venus or a certain, I guess that applies to both of them. But if they were to compete in like <inaudible> college tennis, that they would be, be like constantly beat out. And like, you can look at both of them. And they are just like the, like the perfect prototype of what an athletic woman is supposed to be. 2 (1h 6m 12s): Right? Like just an absolute beast. Like, no, one's gonna beat those two. Right. And then you have <inaudible> little scrawny college boys beating them on the court. What is that? Then if biology doesn't matter, 0 (1h 6m 28s): It doesn't matter. And you know, again, I told you, my daughter is learning things through experience, right. She competes in the sport where there is there's girls and boys there separated, but they do the same events and the times are wildly different. And she knows why it's not because she doesn't try as hard. Hell no, she probably tries harder. She's probably more dedicated and more focused, but that's just a, her, and you can just see it. So anybody that doesn't acknowledge the biological centralism of gender and performance is just a lie, but just lying to you and you know, immediately not to take them seriously because either they haven't done the research or their maliciously trying to manipulate you. 2 (1h 7m 17s): Unfortunately. Yeah. I think some of them too, it comes down, I think, blind to empathy. Cause you do it some people and they just have a bleeding heart. So it's, they just want no one to ever have a hurt feeling. And then we both know that's not good for anyone's development. Right? You like you learn from those painful moments that give everything was gum drops and rainbows. Like you can't really be expected to constantly be leveling up because your not challenged too. So it's not like to say go out there and be a Dick to people. But it is to say there's lessons to be learned. And that those are like very critical moments of anyone's development. So hurt feelings are inevitable and just like reframe it to, how can I learn from this pain instead of becoming a victim to it. 2 (1h 8m 5s): And then, and one of the worst 0 (1h 8m 6s): Things that's happening is that we're diminishing the value of losing. Losing is important. Getting your ass is important. Losing by a fraction of an inch is important. Losing is important. If you don't lose, if you're shielded from losing, you will not ever know how to win. And I see that as a really long-term problem. And I can see it playing out with my kids and their peer's. I can see that playing out in my prior, my prior industry and prior fields, people, just your right people don't want to have anybody to have any pain. Pain is essential. 0 (1h 8m 48s): There is also the same thing about good and evil focus on the left thing that you can perfect men, you can make him perfect. You can eliminate eval focus on the right, as far as I've had experience in my readings, except the presence of evil except sin, except the fact that we're damaged and we make mistakes and that you just have to do better. Be better, get better. Whereas over here it's like if we haven't perfected everything that something is wrong. So we have to keep doing something else. We have to keep changing the system. You have to keep forcing things to happen. And a it's just, I just, it's tough because it's so outside of my worldview, just as outside of like my life experience and how I teach my kids and what comes naturally to me and whatever my instincts are, you know, maybe it's because I played competitive sports my entire life, you know, maybe that's it. 0 (1h 9m 41s): You can see for sure. The difference between kids that play actual competitive sports and people that of play participation, recreational stuff for don't at all, or a team sports are a huge for teaching those kinds of lessons and, and its being corrupted. You know, if it was like the boy Scouts got corrupted and all of these other institutions had been corrupted in the church, people would tell me a husband corrupted. I don't cause I don't, haven't been, but I here, you know, and then team sports were something that I thought, you know, as a coach, I coached youth sports for many years. I saw them as a way to transmit these traditional values to kids, winning, losing competition, et cetera, good sportsmanship, accepting loss, being gracious in victory, all of these things, working hard for your goals, relying on data. 0 (1h 10m 26s): But now that it's being corrupted to it, it's being corrupted to us and hysterically is being corrupted by people where like, I follow the signs, man. I'm sure you do 2 (1h 10m 37s): It. Yeah. Learning how to lose is also really important lesson too, because then as an adult, when something doesn't go your way or you do hit, hit a wall, right. You know what to do and you know, it's not going to be like the end of you or if it's like your first time and no one taught you how to get back up, you might stay at the bottom forever. Cause your like, I didn't, I don't know. There was another way, right? Like is still here. I'm going to be forever. 0 (1h 10m 58s): Yeah. And it makes me wonder a little bit about, about what is my different parent styles and experience for their kids is going to bring. So, like I said before, like I grew up in a household of crisis. I was totally a latchkey kid, super independent working a very young age, like hustle side, hustling, you know, less than 10 paper outs by like 11 actual proper jobs at 14 with a special waiver and all of that. And so I just learned how to be self-sufficient I was living on my own before I was even done with high school, but you know what? My parents drove me out of the house, but I look in my son and like, oh yeah, you don't have to move out. 0 (1h 11m 44s): Like stay, take some time, figure it out, save some money, build a career, don't go into debt. Like it's just different. So I wonder at what their outcomes will be given the experiences are different. I think, I think that it will be your, I think I'll be right. All signs so far are pretty good. But I do. I do wonder, you know, I feel like I'm a good man now, but it's not because of my childhood. It's an it's in spite of that and that, and it really took years, years, years, journaling, meditating, yoga therapy, lots of therapy reading solo time, outdoor time, solo traveling, martial arts, competitive combat sports. 0 (1h 12m 32s): I had to do all of these things in order to like build myself and to understand what had happened. I'm hoping that these kids don't have to do all of that. That was a heavy lift worth it. And I didn't really have any choice if I wanted it to be happy or, you know, as close to one as can be and productive, then it was an inevitability to do all of that work. But most people don't face it head on. So most people are oblivious. Yeah. 2 (1h 13m 2s): That's a really tough one. When you, when you have to try to fake, I guess maybe you will never be able to like solidly figure it out, but it, whether it's like in spite of, or because of right. Cause everything's a bit of a butterfly effect. So it's like, well, if you didn't have those hardships, would you have had such a hard work ethic? And if you weren't kicked out, would you not have gained that sense of independence and resilience, right? Like everything kind of pushes you in a way, but then there is some biological undertone to it too. Right? Cause some people are just biologically more resilient. Like there is something that's expressed that will make you maybe M like thrive and a certain environment where someone else just might buckle in. It will be too much. 2 (1h 13m 43s): It's kind of like that threshold when you want to stretch somebody to kind of like right before their breaking point to get them the real them out and get them to rise above. But there has to be, it gets very calculated because if you overdo it, then you're actually doing a disservice to that person. So yeah. I don't know I've for me is my childhood was also a pretty rough, lots of abuse, like moving around all of the time, mom, that he was there and then not there. And just like a lot of inconsistency. I was on my, by a 17 as well. And for a long time, there is a lot of blame and it was like, you know, because of you and in spite of you and that kind of a thing. But now it's like part of that, I think part of the reason I'm so successful is because of how difficult everything was. 2 (1h 14m 28s): But then you could also argue you, you know, the two of my siblings aren't necessarily reaping the same reward. So it's one of those questions that you'll never really know. 0 (1h 14m 38s): Do you feel like you healed all of that from your childhood? Yeah, 2 (1h 14m 41s): For sure. But I spent a lot of time too. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't like, oh, it's okay, mom, I forgive you. It's okay, dad, I forgive you. It's okay. For all of these awful moments that I had to endure as a child, it was a lot of the same things, meditation, yoga, I've done like a lot, like I said, a lot of those camps and stuff you go to. So like, I'd done a lot of neuro-feedback work. I'm like the principal Savage that all of these, those types of getaways that make you kind of looking at the darkest and most painful spots of your existence and then come to a better place with them. So it's like not, not forgiving the behavior, but for giving the person. 2 (1h 15m 21s): And I don't know, like trying to reframe it to a positive because it's no matter what the thing happened, you can't undo it. So are you going to let it be the reason that you are angry forever because that only affects you that's not effective the other person? Or do you want to heal because that's how you're going to be happy and find joy and just like live your best life. But it does no good to constantly like hate my dad, you know, I don't, I don't wanna live that way. 0 (1h 15m 49s): Yeah. I heard it put once a, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? Eventually I learned I wanted it to be a happy. And then, then I learned at the only way to be happy was to adjust my perspective. I learned that when I am upset, a lot of times it's a it's because I'm upset with the way that some other person plays for a thing in the world is behaving and you can't change other people or other things. I figured this out. Forty-five I figured it out it yesterday. It's a fucking amazing a and so acceptance, man, acceptance. Now you can accept things without being week. 0 (1h 16m 30s): You can accept things without surrendering in the very same way, as you can be submissive without giving up your identity or without giving up your own power. And in fact, I've found that there is a lot of beauty and power and acceptance. And what I mean by acceptance is like, okay, well, that person is not going to change how they're behaving or some circumstances and going to change itself. So what, what can I do? It's like a crying baby on the plane. When I was pre kids, it'd be a crying baby. I'm like match that fucking beef. But now I'm like, ah, for baby, for a baby, that baby is a set man. 0 (1h 17m 12s): And guess what? Fine sucks. I get it. All right. So what changed it? The only thing that changed is my perspective on it and the same event use to make me upset. No, it actually makes me be like, Aw, cute baby. You're crying, but still cute. I get it. You were a baby. You cry. That's what you do it. Plus I have more emotional control that a baby. So it to tell the baby the stop crying when I could be the one who is like, oh, maybe I should just stop being upset. Which sounds like common sense. Number one. But truly this is a radical notion that most people have an adopted, right? Like being able to change yourself. I, my, what I would say is either that ain't my movie man, which I got from Charles Manson. 0 (1h 17m 59s): Actually, you were sitting in court, he was sitting in court and they were accusing him of all kinds of stuff. And he goes, that ain't my movie, man. He really believed it too. Ah, but so for me it was like, I, I use that. It is sort of a psychotic, but I use that a, especially when I would get a little in my head, you know, and I would start thinking about other people and thinking about what they were thinking about me or whatever, dumb shit, right. A big, oh, that ain't my movie, man. That ain't my movie. After a while, that just became my like keyword to just like snap out of whatever it was a and I can't remember what the other phrase was. Oh, I take care of them. I take care of me. 0 (1h 18m 41s): That was the other one. I take care of me and that put the onus of care for me on myself. And when you do that, you actually make yourself much ABL. You make yourself, you make it so that other people can care for you. When you actually tell yourself that you take care of yourself, it, it actually makes it so that other people can care for you too. So that, ain't my movie, man. And I take care of me are the two ways that I snap out of like being upset with some other person place or thing and leading myself to acceptance, which brings me to the serenity. Really. 2 (1h 19m 16s): That's amazing. That's really amazing stuff 0 (1h 19m 20s): That it took a while to get to these absolute basic zero grade level truth. 2 (1h 19m 26s): I mean, the baby example is amazing though, because I mean, any parent can, most parents can relate to that. Right? I was the same person. I would hear a screaming baby. And I was like, why are you flying with that baby? Like totally disregarding that it's public transit, even though you're in the sky. Right? Like they are, you almost can't you walk, right. It just totally selfish and just oblivious to the world and then becoming a parent. And you're like, oh my gosh, how can I help? Right. Like, like how can I help? And then I've, I've taken that approach with certain people in my life too. Like anyone that maybe used to just grind my gears or like just being around them would really frustrate me. 2 (1h 20m 7s): And it's like, am I going to focus all my energy on what I can't control? Which is this person that has their own agenda? Or am I going to be like, how can I help? Like if there were behaving in a certain way, obviously they have a need that's not being met so I can choose to be a helpful person, a loving person, a compassionate person, or it can choose to just be pissed, which one's easier you want. 0 (1h 20m 29s): Well, which one is easier? That's actually a pretty good question. Oh, 2 (1h 20m 33s): Well I guess the actual being pissed is easier, but longterm, longterm consequences, which one's for you, which ones 0 (1h 20m 39s): For you. It definitely, I mean, asking how you can help. That's a huge being of service of any kind getting out of yourself have in any way is the, to me, its a spiritual act, getting your stuff out of your own head, thinking about somebody else, thinking about something else, giving, giving. I say this a lot. I got this from Mike Cernovich and one of my very oldest friends, a lead with giving a lead with giving. If you, even if you want something from somebody start off by giving something. But if I get it, it's good for the Sol one and it actually will get you two, your goals to the right people like to reciprocate. 0 (1h 21m 27s): People liked to reciprocate that's and I'm such a sucker for it. And we're all we all are. Right. It's built into us. I just signed up on a, another social media app, a new one. I'm not ready to announce it. I'm kind of an ambassador for them. Now they recruited me for months and months and months a month. And I finally agreed. And for our engagement, they sent us a, a, a very nice gift basket. I mean like the nicest one I ever got like a 2010 bottle of Dom, a box of DAV at offs, like a good stuff. That's when I ever got chocolate beef jerky, I was like, man, these people they've been paying attention to my Twitter feed and a instantly, I was just like, oh thank you. 0 (1h 22m 11s): What can I do to help? Like how much more can I contribute? Like the reciprocation is huge. So I lead with giving its like the good, the right thing to do. Its also the thing that we'll get it to your goals. And if everybody in this country just decided to do 10 minutes of service work, I think so many things would change. I recommend that to all my guys, all my guys in the liminal order, everybody on my Twitter feed, I'm constantly talking about doing service work, giving back to your community, giving a building a community. How are you even doing service work as a community? These are ways to build your spiritual energy in a way that really will buttress you against all this nonsense in the chaos and all of the infighting and polarization. 0 (1h 22m 52s): Because the answer to the future of Julie is within inside of all of us, it's inside of it. We have to start with ourselves. 2 (1h 23m 0s): I couldn't agree more. So when it comes to the luminal order and like this men's group that you've created, how do you define their role in society? And like the standards that they have to live up to? 0 (1h 23m 15s): Good question. We have our core values. Everything that we do is shaped by our core values, masculinity, which is to build, create, provide protect, to instruct to master it's an honor, it's courage, it's loyalty, all right. A brotherhood. It is our other, another of our core values, service, accountability, loyalty community, and then sovereignty, which is about personal sovereignty of the mind in the spirit and also the body fiscal financial, umm you know, political, actual, actual physical like food sovereignty, things like that. So these are our core values. And this is if you want to be inside of the luminal order, you must behave according to those values. 0 (1h 23m 59s): So you must uphold those values of exhibit. Those values create more of them. We help you create more of them in yourself, more than your family and more than the community, hopefully so that we have more of them in the nation, right? Like my life is in perfect alignment with my values, my day-to-day action, my goals in life and my hopes and dreams for the future of our country. I wish that we had more masculine men in brotherhoods who were a sovereign. This would solve a lot of the problems that we have. So at once I'm trying to help guys be better. Individual men have them be better fathers, have them be better. Husbands, have them be better community members and then also be better leaders in the country. 0 (1h 24m 41s): And because of that, those are my personal values, which I hold dear. And then I get to work on them everyday with guys. Then I get to see more of them result in the world around me. And then I get to see them actually build and create things which are changing the world for the better we've got CEOs, we've got startups, we built businesses initiatives. We do info ops. We do meme campaigns. We do art and media. So many things that have been out. They're going around. You, you guys don't even know it as coming out in the liminal order. And I like it that way. And we're in a building businesses that are literally shaping the future and then we're staffing them up with guys from inside the liminal orders so that everybody inside the company has the shared values and then the investors have the shared values. 0 (1h 25m 23s): And so it's not going to get fucked up by wokeness. We're building impenetrable networks and entities to fight and a culture war. And to also just to make your lives better for men, an intern they're families, which means that our wives in which means that their children, I haven't gotten so many messages, firm, wives of men in a limit order sang, thank you so much. Ever since my wife, my husband joined the limo order is done. This, that and the other and our life has gotten better. And just thank you. And a, those are the kinds of things that, that making it all worth it. You know, when I see my dreams come true, you know, we started the liminal order in June of 2019 with zero members. 0 (1h 26m 4s): We have 600 now. Wow. Yeah, we have 600. We've had hundreds of meetings across the world, actually mostly in the United States. But meeting is all over the country. National meet-ups regional meetups, a local meetups. You go to the shooting range at barbecues, do service work, do charity work, hundreds of meetings and the fellowship and everything that we built and then the businesses and the initiatives and everything coming out of it in their relationships. It's been a, has been tremendous 2 (1h 26m 32s): What an amazing way to provide purpose, right? And like a world where that's so hard to find. I think that's incredible stuff that you are doing. 0 (1h 26m 41s): Thank you. Thank you. Is it is, it feels like a super power having a third space. That's not work and that's not family. That's meaningful. That has a positive impact on your life and a positive impact on your community and that when you invest time and energy in it, like good things happen for everybody. That's an incredible feeling. A I don't think most people have that. They go to work and if they're married and have kids, they have their family. If their single, they go to work and then they have their single friend group, the other third place of meaning, very important. 0 (1h 27m 21s): You know, we're not a religious group, but we are spiritual. And we do encourage spirituality, whether it comes in religion or how are you see fit. But I do feel like it's a filling a gap that has been left by a fraternal organizations, church communities, things like that, that just have degraded. <inaudible> 2 (1h 27m 42s): Have you started that book? Recapture the re or recapture the rapture by Jamie wheel? I have not. It just came out. I think you would love it. I haven't cracked it open yet, but we actually, we're going to one of his flow camps in a couple of weeks, actually it would have to get it down before then, but he, it talks about sex philosophy and filling a God-shaped hole that's left and it's pretty cool stuff. Like his philosophy is in a way is that he kind of sees the world is pretty interesting. And it gets into like in this modern day where so much of our community is gone because we're living more nomadic and religions gone. 2 (1h 28m 22s): So we don't have that S that kind of community anymore. Like where are you finding those, your purpose and, and those social ties. And I think that it's great that with your, what, the luminal order that you do, you encourage community work as well, because then you're invested. So how many of us don't know our neighbors or even know their names, right? So it's hard to be connected or to give a shit or to want to be involved in any level when you don't know the person. And it's also easier to vilify that person and say that simply because we don't agree on everything down the line, that you must be a terrible person. Cause I know I'm not a terrible person. So it has to be one or the other instead of having a conversation and being like, well, actually they're pretty cool. We not agree on all of these things, but as it, as a person, we actually have a lot more in common than I would have guessed. 2 (1h 29m 7s): So I think that it's so important for people to be more involved. 0 (1h 29m 11s): I got that, that phrase, God shaped hole. I've heard that before. And I feel like I'm actually right there a, my life is fulfilling in every way. Family love business purpose, physically, emotionally, spiritually in every way, but there is still a God shaped hole and my life. And I'm trying to figure out how to fill it with God. Yeah. And a I've been disconnected from a relationship with God for some time. I don't know that I've ever authentically had one. I was raised Jewish and Catholic. 0 (1h 29m 52s): I had a bar mitzvah. I'd been the Sunday mass, but I lost it in my teenage years. And I never had it as an adult. But now that my life is truly fulfilled in every way and getting better all the time there is there still something missing and a, I actually don't feel bad about it. It actually is sort of joyous because like I'm, I'm reaching, I'm reaching the point where I've almost come to, like, I'm almost there. It's a process. I interviewed this guy, Spencer clave in the other day. And his dad very famously wrote a book about being Jewish and then having a baptism at like age 50, like converting to Christianity later in life. 0 (1h 30m 41s): And, and, and a Spencer himself is Christian. And a, he said to me, he said, look, God is not on the other side of the door. You, that he's waiting for you to open. He's on your side of the, the, the door urging you to nock, right? Like he is already there with you. And a, when he said that to me, in response to me talking about a spiritual journey and, and seeking and epiphany, I think it might have been right then that it might've been in the moment I felt it. I, and I launched the video later. Like my eyes is actually teared up a little bit and a, I keep coming back to that moment because he's right, right. Like if you believe, and I think I do, God is everywhere all the time, so I don't have to go find him, dude. 0 (1h 31m 27s): No, it just has to open up to it. And, and it, and in some ways it is sort of like the last missing piece, the last missing piece. I, I don't, I don't feel empty. I don't feel like I'm missing, but I do feel like a calling or, or, or just a God shaped hole. I mean, it's that, that's such a great way of putting it and a getting married, his part of that process write like it is part of the way of inviting God into my, 2 (1h 31m 60s): Well, it's a huge, a spiritual connection or that whether or not you're a religious or whether not, maybe you were even aware of it. It it's like something about that commitment, even though some people are, it's just a piece of paper, it's just a legality. It's a really not, you can choose to look at it that way, but if you fully surrender, right, if you surrender to that experience and to your partner, I don't know that there's something, there is something magical about that decision that you make together. And I think a lot of it, and maybe how you frame it and it also how you interact with your partner. Like when you, I don't know, when you get to this place, like, is the healthiest place of your relationship and your intimate. 2 (1h 32m 43s): It's not like anything else that you've experienced, right. It is two flesh and bone bodies kind of merging and then losing that sense of space, time, and location and the universe. And that, it sounds super hippy. But I think that it's like, there's a difference between having sex with someone that is on that level with you. And it's like, we're doing this till we die. And if there is something else after, hopefully we meet up there because that's how much I want to be around you. 0 (1h 33m 14s): It's different. Yeah. I can feel it already. And a, without getting into too many details that it has impact, it impacted our sexual relationship at a very positive way. Not that it needed any help at all, that it's just like one extra layer on top of it where there's extra, meaning an extra meaning, love and acknowledgement. I, you know, I've been all over the place on this sex thing, man. Like I, at times in my life, I have just been anybody, anybody that I find interesting, let's go and know. And, and, and I've definitely been in periods of my life were, it was my priority a was, and it wasn't always just sex itself, but it was just like meeting people, getting to know them, having moment of intimacy, a, a moment of honesty, if you could, as close as you could in those kinds of circumstances. 0 (1h 34m 12s): And I've certainly spent my time on the hedonistic treadmill as is called, right? Like just running as fast as I can trying to have as much pleasure as possible acting like this is going to be some sort of, you know, to fill heat, to fill up to this level line of like pleasure that once you get their it's like, oh, I'm fine. But you know, that's just not simply, that's simply just not how it works. A and it's taken a slightly less a, is it slightly less of a priority in my life now? Not terribly too much, but my perspective on it is definitely a lot different. And you know, I can see the value in experiencing different people, especially to learn some ways about who you are and especially to learn about what, you're not sure that you're not interested in M and compatibility and things like that. 0 (1h 35m 3s): But I also see every day, the value of an invested longterm relationship filled with love and meaning and sex, you know, that is a unique, special thing that cannot be matched no matter how hot she is, no matter how many girls are there, no matter what the wild factor is, none of that will ever match. When you add up your commitment, your history, your shared experiences, intimacy, the future, God, all of those things into that. None, none, none of the other hedonistic approaches come close, close enough to try. 0 (1h 35m 45s): Definitely not close enough for the long-term. 2 (1h 35m 47s): No, I totally agree. I think it's really important to experience other people. I think that's where the, the Wright lose is me. And that's why like, it's so interesting. So like, I agree with you so much that you guys have to say, but you still won't let me and your club, and now I don't wanna be in your club is going to start my own club if you want me. Yeah. It's like, we don't have to agree down the line. And I think that's the one part, I think that needs to go undergo revolution when it comes to that political party, it's more of the sexual liberation and is not to say, I think that the fear comes, write that if people of society is too sexually free, then down, it goes the nuclear family and all of the values that go with it. 2 (1h 36m 29s): And then people aren't gonna work as hard and blah, blah, blah. It's just going to corrupt society on a cellular level. And I disagree. I think that can happen. And a small scale, right? You are going to have some people that maybe for lack of better terms, get addicted to whatever their vices, whether it's sex, drugs, drinking, what have you, that's going to happen because we just have a biodiversity, right? There is just an X factor there. But I think you learn so much about who you are through it re your relationships, right? It's like when you're young, it's almost like trying on a piece of clothing and we're like, how does this fit, right? Or maybe this just fits for now, and I'm not going to be attached to this. 2 (1h 37m 9s): And maybe this is better, right? Like trying to find the most authentic version of yourself. And that's hard. And it's so hard if you, I guess don't experience other people and people could maybe say, you could do that. That is sex. But again, that's understanding someone on such an intimate level and understanding yourself too. There is such an intimate level and you can't do that alone. It's not as safe as you think. 0 (1h 37m 36s): No, you definitely cannot. Yeah, it definitely can not. And one of the, one of the signs that I knew that my a first marriage was a, it was definitely do, we've stopped having sex very common as much as I wanted it. It, it just wasn't there. And then I went, began my own sexual journey, separate from her. Yeah. You know, even just in my mind, right. Not even as much in practice. And so I just would just evolve the part just evolved apart. But the, what you said about the club, you know, the, the right is an interesting place to be right now. It's not the same thing as it was before. 0 (1h 38m 18s): And the rise of the woke left is, has a lot to do with that. It it's almost as if the tenant is basically like, okay, these are the core values that we believe in. They happen to be the ones that they hate over here. Let's protect these values that are going to attack them. And that's kind of where we are. And inside that tent, Spencer Klavan, he's gay. Right. You know, you and I have different attitudes on sex and relationships and maybe some of the other sort traditional, right. For people who are a, on this side, over here, there, there is going to have to be a, a sense of tolerance to build a coalition 'cause at core. 0 (1h 38m 59s): It, it is the fundamental values that we hold co in common, right? For your time individual is M the chance to rise and fail on your own, not blaming people for the past, the data objectivity being on time for these things. And, and so I've always been a little bit of an outsider on this side. For that reason, I started off writing about sex, you know, and I've written stuff that people dig up all the time and want to talk shit about. And, and, and I've come to understand that, and maybe this is arrogant and probably is a, I can see the value in having societal guidelines and norms and expectations that are one thing. 0 (1h 39m 43s): And then I can see how actually I can live my life and a different way, but still achieve the values. The, you know, a adhere to the Valley's that I hold important family and kids and being together and building a life like, you know, for me, I can be sexually adventurous and still value my family, but it still be invested in, in my family. And you still want to build a family and still want to build a community. It still want to do service work and still believe in Liberty and freedom and all these things, but also be sexually adventurous or outside of the norm. And a, you know, that if you have some people don't like that, some people don't like that. And that is going to be, it is a sticking point. It is, it is, it is an issue a for those people is not an issue for me. 0 (1h 40m 28s): Right, right. But it, do. I think that everybody should be as adventurous is I am, or it was probably not M. And why is that? It is because in order to have some of the experiences I've had, it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of emotional work. It takes a lot of communication, takes a lot of trust and vulnerability in, and an effort, an effort that either most people haven't put in the foundational work to do have no interest in doing right now, don't wanna do the follow-up work. And that's fine, but also don't do the sexually adventurous stuff either. But if you are, you have to do all of these other things too. 0 (1h 41m 10s): And you have to put your family first, despite what people might accuse you of. And they're, and it's just a it's to me, it's more rewarding, but it is, it's a, it takes a lot more effort. It takes a lot more effort. Oh man, you, 2 (1h 41m 23s): Where did that? So well, it's, it's putting the work in before and having that foundation because so many people will look at my relationship or my marriage. And they're like, how does that work? Right? Or how did he stay with her? And he must be this terrible person that has no spine on the contrary. He is like the most confidence, like self-assured rock that I've ever met. And it's because we did do that foundational work, right? Like everything was communication. I wasn't out there making decisions for myself. Right. It was for both of us and he had to be on board for it. And I don't know you are you and, and such a way that I don't think you could, otherwise it is not to say my type of relationship is for everyone because it's not, but w there's not a, a piece of that man, sole that I don't. 2 (1h 42m 15s): No. And he could say the same thing about me. And I think because we've been through things is not to say there has never been jealousy and there's never been heartbreaker. Any of that. Like, we've gone through all of that. But when you learn that you can get through that together. Then you have so much room for grace in the future, because it's an understanding we're not perfect beings. And there are going to be times where I wrong him. And he wrongs me in whatever fashioned that you wanna come up with write, but it saying, well, we've already done this before something similar, and I can forgive you because I'm going assume the best out of you and your gonna assume the best out of me. And maybe there was like that hiccup or mishap or whatever it was. But if you go into it with grace and assuming the best out of your partner, then you can get through it. 2 (1h 42m 58s): Right. And that's what you want. You don't want a relationship that's never tested. And that it is solely exists in solely thrives. So as long as everything's perfect and no one is stumbles because that's fragile and that's going to break. 0 (1h 43m 11s): Yeah. And it, I liked the way that you said that. And what I have noticed for sure is that it's not a release valve. It's an ex it's an experience with having to come together. Okay. Like having to reconnect. And in fact, the reconnection is sometimes is always the best part of being adventurous out there. And you teaches you that we all make mistakes and that you can heal and repair. And it builds that muscle of healing and repairing and does make you stronger. 0 (1h 43m 53s): It's made me stronger. It's made our relationship stronger and we are expert at conflict resolution expert. I wrote an article many years ago called like 12 signs. She's a keeper. And one of them was that she's resolution oriented. And what I mean by that is that whenever a conflict comes up, what is her and your inclination, is it to prolong the conflict and get the last word in and B right? Or is it too resolve the conflict? Most conflicts, interpersonal conflicts in relationships, you know, aside from like devastating adultery or debt, which involves lying, right. 0 (1h 44m 36s): A devastating lies and deception are there, or an abdication of responsibility, those things aside, most relationship issues or trivial miscommunication misinterpretation, a little bit of a failed expectation here in there. But like, if what you want is for things to be good and your inclination is to resolve them well, that's going to make for a much more productive, longterm relationship. And both of my wife and I have done personal work on our own and together. And so we have this tool, we have a whole tool box and a that's one of the reasons why I know that this has legs is because we have already demonstrated our ability to repair it more than once and not about sexual stuff, just about finances, getting doxed and getting fired and not having any money and like needing to move and crazy ex-wives and just, you know, all kinds of shit that we have learned how to repair as we're flying this beautiful ship, it was a beautiful play were flying. 0 (1h 45m 43s): It were up near, and I'm an amazing time that the wing does came off. Oh, fuck you going to figure out how to put the winged back on it in motion. So you don't crash and burn. And, and, and truly that that's one of the keys to long-term relationships, relationships, success. It's not, oh my God, I'm in love. Oh my God. You know, he, she's a literal, hottest person I've ever seen in my life. Know these things are not what give you a long-term satisfaction is the ability to repair human relationships and to keep the big picture in mind and to stay focused on the long-term goal. The marriage to me is about making the marriage, the goal, not about individual goals, not about my individual security or your individual security or this fight, or that fight or this dispute or the, the goal is the marriage. 0 (1h 46m 34s): So in this moment, what can I do to achieve the goal of the marriage? And that's definitely not digging my heels in and being a Dick and like being stubborn. Definitely not, but Hey, again, 45 and learning these things as I go still, hopefully 2 (1h 46m 54s): You never stopped learning. I think that the goal that's the sine of a good person write is continual growth and continuous learning. They say, if your not embarrassed about the person you were a year ago, then you haven't changed enough. And I'm like, well, it's so true. It's so true. Like, I can even go through my Twitter feed and I'm like, man, well, as I think that, that one, like I've come totally flipped my idea on that. 0 (1h 47m 18s): Okay. Change and gives good dynamism and as good as staying the same is not good. And then again, not everything is bad, not everything. It was good. So take all of that. Mish-mash for however you want it. Oh man. 2 (1h 47m 35s): Well, this has been absolutely incredible. Do you want to tell the listeners where they can find you on social? Any projects that you're working on it you're allowed to tell us about and how they can support you? 0 (1h 47m 47s): Sure. First off a follow me on Twitter at Jack Murphy live a that is home-base men. If you were interested in masculinity, brother had the sovereignty come to liminal, hyphen order.com 600 members worldwide, sign up, get vetted by the network and see if you are letting the order of material and a, if you are, and then, then you will become happier, healthier and wealthier. That is the promise of a coming up. We've got a tour, a were going to be traveling around the country, starting late summer, going into winter called Jac brunch tour is going to be a Sunday social. So it's a Sunday social for those of us on the right side of things. And it's going to be a, in about 10 cities across the country. 0 (1h 48m 29s): We're inviting people to come out and have a brunch with us, have some fellowships, socialize, get to know people in your town that you see the world the same way you do got that. And then my wife re redhead, her name is Michelle. We are starting a locals page together. We're, we're going to focus on relationship stuff a little bit more of a feminine perspective, a talk about the wedding and all these kinds of things, cooking Homelife kids, et cetera. So a that's coming up a we'll announce that in a couple of weeks, and I'm really excited about that. A other than that, you could find me Jack Murphy, if you live on all of the socials or across the spectrum. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me on again. Thank you for rescheduling with me. 0 (1h 49m 11s): I'm so glad that we did. I wouldn't of been at my top form for that one and a I've had a blast and thank you very much. 2 (1h 49m 18s): Thank you again. I'll have to have you back. 0 (1h 49m 20s): Yeah, that would be my pleasure. Well, 2 (1h 49m 22s): That's it for this week's episode of Chatting with Candice, I hope you enjoyed the content. And if you did, please leave a five star review on apple podcasts or Spotify, or anywhere that you listening, if that applies. And I'm going to ask you to share this with three friends, you can share it with three friends that you think would really enjoy this conversation, or you could share it on your social media. Both things helped me out a ton and who doesn't appreciate some good content. So I just want to say thank you in advance and I appreciate you and I'll see you next time. <inaudible>.