Chatting with Candice
Episode Run Time: 02:11:50
After a short hiatus, I am welcoming Benjamin “Benji” Nolot into the podcast. He is a filmmaker and the CEO and founder of “Exodus Cry”, a Christian social activist group focused on the issue of human trafficking. In this episode, Benji and I talk about what inspired him on his advocacy, the issue of porn and sex trafficking online, and how we can possibly regulate the porn, its consumers, and the entire industry.
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0 (0s): On a personal level. I do have issues with only fans. It's a very predatory system and it's concerning to me the, the way in which the, the recruitment model of like, if you recruit somebody to the site, then you make money. It's, it's, it's a weird kind of almost it's, it's enabling this like pimping culture to emerge and young girls, 18 years old are being targeted. Well, even younger than that, 1 (31s): Everybody that you're listening to Chatting with, Candice, I'm your host, Candice, Horbacz back. Super excited to be back. I know we had a bit of a hiatus. We're going to try to do more frequent updates again, back to weekly. It's going to depend on the guest schedule, but I didn't want to sacrifice conversations for a schedule. So I want to make sure I'm only putting out episodes that I'm super excited to release. And I think that it's fun or important. We're both conversation. So we'll be consistent as the quality of the podcast. So for the shadows, I want to say, thank you so much to bill Klute, Greg someone, my mystery, man, John and Lauren C. 1 (1m 11s): Thank you so much for all of those cups of coffee, all of the funds directly go back into the podcast, whether it's for equipment, getting a guest in ads, all that stuff, couldn't do it without you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This week is going to be a spicy Episode. So buckle up buttercup. I don't know what I was thinking. I don't know what he was thinking, but I got ahold of the CEO of Exodus Cry, Mr. Benji, no lot. So Exodus Cry is kind of, you can do your own research. There's a lot of, there's a lot of press about them. They're not the most desirable campaign within the adult industry. 1 (1m 54s): And I want him to see the man behind the mission, kind of get a better idea of their take on the adult industry, what, how they wanted to regulate it if they want to regulate it. And what I found is a really compelling conversation. Someone who seems to have their heart in the right place, and I'll, I'll let you guys decide, but I think it's really important to have conversations, especially when we don't align down the line. I think that's how we learn. That's how we grow. That's how we get insight that we might not have otherwise. And just to remind her that it's okay to disagree. You can be friends with someone you disagree with. You can dislike someone you disagree with, but what's important is to be respectful and just be open. 1 (2m 38s): So that's what the podcast is all about is curiosity, openness, respect, empathy, all that good stuff. So let's go into this episode with an open mind and please help me welcome Benji. So I have been kind of bracing for this episode because I know I'm getting so much feedback. We, we can say for doing this, you probably will as well, but I guess one of the main reasons I wanted to do this is one of my main principles of the podcast is respecting people that have different worldviews than you having dialogue. And I feel like that's the only way that you can learn to understand anyone, right, humanize them and get to know them and all of those things. 1 (3m 24s): So I think that's what was really enticing to me. And I couldn't help, but notice all of the work that you have been doing and a lot of the traffic that you have been getting, especially on social media. So if you want to kind of introduce yourself and how you got started with Exodus Cry. 0 (3m 42s): Sure. Yeah. So my name's Benji and I'm the founder and CEO of Exodus Cry. And I really appreciate you having me on the podcast because I agree, I share a similar value and the value is to value disagreement. That's okay. Like look at the societies that only value one way of thinking, you know, those are totalitarian dictator societies. It does not end well. And so, and, and in that, I think, you know, and especially, you know, in our culture, in this context, there are, it's, it's very easy through social media to make characatures of people that, that don't actually represent the full scope and three dimensionality of who they are as humans. 0 (4m 38s): And we've created this very two dimensional world, again with a lot of like narrative building that, that turns people into caricatures on both sides. And, and so I always appreciate the opportunity, you know, for longer form discussion to figure out, you know, where are the areas that maybe there's things we agree on, you know? And, and, and Hey, maybe we don't see eye to eye on everything, but I, I'm sure there's things that I can learn from you and vice versa. And so at no point in my life, have I personally ever felt like, you know, I've arrived, I'm keenly aware of my own frailty as a human and my own journey of continual growth. 0 (5m 22s): So, yeah. So I think, you know, that's a good, that's a good starting point for a conversation like this is where clearly we probably have some, some, you know, differences of opinion on things and differences of worldview and that's okay. That's okay. It's okay with me. So, but yeah, like I said, I'm founder of Exodus Cry. We've been working in the anti-trafficking space now for about 13 years. And recently the past couple of years have been really staring more closely at the subject of pornography. And so hopefully at some point, you know, we can get into some of that 1 (5m 58s): For sure. So I guess a lot of when we talk about caricature is especially on both sides, right? All I, when I saw your stuff going viral, I feel like it was, maybe it was like during the pandemic, I feel like it's where there's a lot of attention on your guys's mission. I follow Jenna Jamison. And she was a huge supporter of the work that you were doing with PornHub specifically, and trying to eliminate, I guess, first, what was, what was the goal with, with highlighting PornHub and I guess have, is that like mission accomplished or is there still more work to be done with that company specifically? 1 (6m 40s): And I guess what drew you to it? 0 (6m 43s): Okay, sure. Yeah. The, the subject of, of PornHub really became relevant for us at the end of 2019, a colleague of mine had been doing some investigative research and discovered that these user based upload models of distribution for pornography were enabling videos of real abuse to be featured on the site and videos that feature people who were under age. And so, so that became a pretty significant concern. And the more that we dug into it, the more problematic it seemed. 0 (7m 23s): And, and so that, that focus kind of like snowballed and snowballed into early 2020, when this same colleague released an op-ed in the Washington examiner, addressing the issues with PornHub, which then catalyzed a petition to go forth, to, you know, demand them to be shut down for this complicity, with illegal content. And, and then, you know, it just, this, this campaign, like you said, it went, went viral and drew a lot of attention to the current model of distribution for pornography and the way in which that model, like I said, enables videos of real abuse, trafficking, rape, revenge porn, so on and so forth to be featured. 0 (8m 13s): And, and so we made a lot of traction with that campaign to address this, you know, exploitation that, that was happening on the site and ultimately resulted in PornHub removing about 80% of the content on their site or about 10 million videos. So we're still kind of on the, the journey and the trajectory of holding them accountable for their role in this. But yeah, we feel like some significant traction has been made to eradicate this criminal content and the system that allows it to exist. 0 (8m 57s): And, you know, for my part, I actually have worked on a documentary going into the porn industry and interviewing performers, producers, directors, so on and so forth. One of the things that I learned through that experience was that people in the industry, most people in the industry don't want child pornography out there, you know, and for the larger kind of society, I don't know if they realize that. I think there are some people who just imagined that we'll all pornographers have forms coming out of their head and just imagine that, you know, they want all of this and it's definitely very two very different kind of worlds. 0 (9m 44s): So that's where people like Jenna Jamison and even people currently working in the porn industry. We, we found agreement with because they also were like, Hey, we don't want this content either because, you know, they want to protect their interest of continuing to, to produce legal content and illegal content jeopardize and threatens that. So it was a very unique campaign from the standpoint of garnering so much agreement from people from so many different perspectives. And that was one of the encouraging things about that campaign. 1 (10m 20s): So I guess this is where things, I guess, get gray or people have an issue with going after visa, MasterCard, specifically it, because I guess PornHub or representatives over there were saying that there wasn't a lot of content in comparison to platforms like Facebook, for example, which I think lately reported what you probably are more privy to the actual stats than me, but I believe it was like 20 million individual pieces of content. And I guess where I would say the difference is, is Facebook goes out of their way to report those numbers, to try to help companies like child rescue coalition, which I'm friendly with their CEO, Carly used. 1 (11m 4s): And they do a really amazing work when it comes to trafficking and finding this illegal content. And when people went to porn hub, they're like, well, we don't have anything. So I think that it comes down to like, who's an honest actor, right? And who's being upfront with the material where I, what I read was that these victims that came forward had reported the material and said, Hey, I wasn't consenting. Or I was under age or, you know, this is abuse, whatever it is. And the video still didn't come down. Is that accurate? 0 (11m 35s): Well, I mean, from my PA, first of all, I would, I'm like, yeah, go after all of them. I mean, we're, we're, we're about to go after Twitter pretty aggressively with some things. So I don't want child exploitation content or rape content or trafficking content anywhere. I mean, these are, and I don't even, I hesitate to even call it content. These are recordings of crime scenes. And so it's, so I definitely would be in agreement that, you know, all, all of these social platforms should be addressed with regards to this. 0 (12m 15s): But like you mentioned, there is a pretty significant difference between the reckless utterly reckless way that PornHub was handling this, which, I mean, I, it's not, it's not just reckless. It is total complicity by virtue of the moderator situation and their, their moderator system was nothing short of a joke. I mean, and this is coming from whistleblowers inside who worked for PornHub, who had said these things, whereas Facebook, you know, again, like you mentioned has thousands of moderators and there's aggressively going after this. Now that's not to say they can't improve. And that's not to say there are issues there, but to try and conflate the two is very different. 0 (12m 59s): I mean, PornHub operates like a criminal organization and Facebook, you know, for their part, you know, appears to be trying to operate above board. So yeah, I would say that that's, that's a pretty distinct different, so, 1 (13m 17s): Yeah. So I mean, I totally, I agree in the sense that like I'm very pro paywall, I think that's one step, right? That's one step to make sure that someone who is underage isn't consuming content, that they shouldn't be. I think that I don't have an issue with a government ID. I was reading your website and it was saying like, that was one of the call to actions on your site, which was implementing a government ID before you could get into these explicit territories, if you will. And I think that's fine too. I mean, I was talking to my husband and he's like, well, if I was scrolling on TV and all of a sudden I saw this really bloody Texas chainsaw massacre scene, I'd be pretty pissed off. 1 (13m 58s): Like I didn't sign up to see that. And it shouldn't be any different with a kid. Right. So, I mean, it's not to take all responsibility either away from the household, because I do think it's the most important people are, are the parental figures or the caregivers. Right. And they should be the ones that are teaching about sexuality. And that just, that doesn't happen in the majority of homes. So that leaves that child to listen to a friend or to explore the internet. And that's terrible, right? Like that. I obviously come from the industry. I think what consenting adults do is between consenting adults. I have a huge issue with underage kids just scrolling for free. I just, I don't want that either. 1 (14m 38s): So I'm in full support of that call to action, I guess when it comes to, when it comes to the material, it's like, well, I guess what was the level of involvement when it came to the only fans, a situation that recently happened? Because I know expo has specifically called out your company and was saying that you were one of the main hitters with putting pressure on the banks to kick out all of the sex workers from only fans into that. It's like, I hope not. Because as someone who's a performer, I can tell you being on as porn set is far more dangerous to me as a performer than me filming from my living room. 1 (15m 18s): Do you know what I mean? And I do agree that there needs to be some way to verify that I'm consenting and I'm of age before I upload that content. And that was very loosey goosey up until maybe a year ago on only fans. But now they're recognized recognition. Like I CA I almost didn't get approved and I've been in the industry forever. Cause it has to like scan your face kind of like an apple phone. So I guess long-winded but level of involvement, what do you think about it? Are you being character caricature eyes? All of that, I can relate same 0 (15m 55s): And I get it. I get it. I mean, if I read some of the stuff that has been printed in my name, I would probably characterize myself as well. So that, you know, it's, it's interesting that the podcast kind of medium has emerged at this time in history and which social media has resulted in so much characterization because it is through longer form conversations that I think some of that can be deconstructed. We can better understand each other. Ultimately for me, you know, I have a, a vision of humanity in which love and empathy are kind of the highest values. 0 (16m 36s): So I try to look at everything through that, through that lens. And, and I, you know, I, I believe that it went through the context of long form content, that there is a better, it's a better way for us to kind of learn about each other and empathize with each other and understand each other. And so, so yeah, with the only fans, the, the issue with only fans is the same issue that we have with anyone that is hosting or distributing pornographic content, which has to do with age and consent verification on both sides. 0 (17m 18s): And so, you know, it turned out through a report by the BBC that a lot of nonconsensual content where was appearing on only fans and content that was people under age, and that they didn't have an effective way to deal with this or to moderate this situation. And so therefore put pressure on the, that put pressure on the credit card companies to take action in requiring them to do a better job of cleaning this stuff up. And so, you know, in terms of the methodology, how do we get there? 0 (17m 59s): You know, there would probably be differences of opinion, but I hope that we can all agree that whether it be only fans, whether it be Facebook, whether it be PornHub, that we don't want these sites to be infested with illegal content. So at the end of the day, that is an issue that we, as a society are facing, you know, in relative terms, the internet is still fairly new. And I think there, there are, it's, it's this alternate universe, and we still have to learn together how to navigate this universe to, to be safe for, for people and for society. 0 (18m 39s): The entire idea of society is that it we're better off together than we are alone. And that requires humility. It requires a level of humility to say, look, I don't have it all figured out. You don't have it all figured out, but hopefully if we work together that we can, you know, come to agreement about certain values and things that we want to establish as sort of the bedrock of our society. Well, the internet has brought us a whole new set of issues to wrestle with. And so for us, for me personally, and for us as an organization, that's where we are with it. We're wrestling with these things, you know, the God bless Gustavo. 0 (19m 26s): He writes very aggressively about accidents, Cry and, and, you know, yeah, just, I, I, it was in internally accidents, Cry. We kind of chuckled amongst ourselves because really we had nothing to do with the only fans. It was more the domino effect of things that have already been taking shape to try to create better systems for accountability, onsite hosting industry, being pornographic content, to ensure that this content is not criminal, that people are not being preyed upon on a personal level. 0 (20m 9s): I do have issues with only fans. It's a very predatory system and it's concerning to me the, the way in which the, the recruitment model of like, if you recruit somebody to the site, then you make money. It it's, it's, it's a weird kind of almost it's, it's enabling this like pimping culture to emerge. And young girls, 18 years old are being targeted, will even younger than that. But let's just say 18 year olds are being targeted with this aggressive kind of recruitment method to lure them into like, Hey, show a little bit and show a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. 0 (20m 51s): And, you know, at some level it's turning us into a prostitution culture. And so there, isn't a question for me of like, well, if that's a good thing, then why aren't we teaching that in schools? Right? Like, I mean, if that's such a good thing and that's, that's so empowering and liberating and what we want for our young daughters, then why isn't that being held up and celebrated as a great job to pursue in high school and college. And, you know, I think there's obvious concerns with a culture that is sending so many young women into prostitution, if you will. And only fans seems to be mainstreaming that in a way that raises concerns. 1 (21m 34s): Well, I guess with that, I think that it's super important to highlight the difference between someone who's being exploited or even they think that they're making a conscious decision, right. And maybe they're not like they're consciously consenting, but they're not. So there's a difference, right? And I, I personally think 18 is too young. I've said that several times, you don't have the capability to understand all of the fallout that's going to happen from this decision. And it's not to say that it's solely because that decision is wrong. It's just the relationship that society has with that decision, right? So it's almost like you make this decision to do, we'll say porn or a sex worker, prostitution, whatever. 1 (22m 20s): And let's say you realize that that's not what you want to do, and you want to quit this line of work, and you want to go back into society, unfortunately, as it stands, especially the more public you are with it. So let's say that you're famous and you do this and there's film and it can never be erased. It becomes really difficult. If not impossible to inter to reintegrate, it's like a permanent, a that's on you. And unless you spend the rest of your life apologizing for what you did, you kind of get ostracized and that's, that's dangerous too, right? There's like no rehabilitation whatsoever. There's no room for grace in that, in that regard either. And it's not to say everyone that makes that decision needs to go there because there are some people that have thought it out and it is just, it is what they want to do. 1 (23m 5s): They do feel empowered. And I would agree that that's the minority of the population. And there's probably a reason for that. And again, it's not to say that it's wrong. I just think that there needs to be, I guess, more of an open space for conversation because yes, I'm a parent. And if I had a daughter and all of a sudden she started and only fans at 18, I'd be a little bit concerned. Right. And it's not being hypocritical. Hypocritical is just because of my experience. And it's not, it's, it's just knowing what she's in for. Right. And it's, I can't undo what I've done. And I love what I do. I'm very fortunate that I'm one of those people that had a relatively healthy experience within the industry. 1 (23m 48s): And I'm very much in control of my content. I do know that's not the case for everybody. So I think it's, everybody's responsibility. It's both everyone in society to again, have more grace compassion and empathy and not to be so judgmental and to maybe provide other opportunities for these women that are making this decision as a means to an end, right. Andrew Yang, she was tweeting the other day. And he said that one of his solutions to this would be UBI. He's like, if there was UBI, then there'd be a lot less women or disenfranchised people that felt like they had to turn to sex work. And, but he, at the same time, he's like team sex work is work. 1 (24m 30s): And I was like, well, you can't, you're kind of saying all people that are going into sex work are doing it because they have no other option. And again, it's not to say that that doesn't happen, but that's not the whole story. Right. You know what I mean? Totally. Yeah. So, I mean, as far as the only fans model goes, I don't have a problem with an affiliate program because I think that's fair if I bring you somebody, and I know you're, I'm making you buckets of money, then I should get something that exists in a lot of other industries. I do have an issue with especially more mainstream models that are going out there. And they're like, I started in only fans and in 72 hours, I made a million dollars. Like that's kinda messed up because I've worked my tail off to create this brand. 1 (25m 11s): And I don't make that kind of money when you from, you know, Oklahoma or whatever, if you decide to make this life changing decision, you're not going to probably make that money either. So it's very dishonest. So I would agree with that, that level of the recruitment isn't really ethical if you would, if you know what I mean. 0 (25m 30s): Totally. And it takes, I mean, what assets would that takes into account is this idea of the implications of pornography, the implications on someone who appears in pornography. And I think that's a really important point that you raise because it, you know, on it, there are long-term mental health implications for many people who appear in pornographic content. And so if you are at a young, impressionable age and they're in, you're being heavily recruited, and there's not a consideration for that kind of larger framework or more critical thinking about that, or a healthy support system to, to process that decision with it could destroy that person's entire life. 0 (26m 22s): And, and that's really sad and unfortunate. I it's, it's unspeakably tragic to your point about wearing the a it's he, yeah, I, I'm trying to think about how to comment on that because I find that tragic and, you know, I don't like the idea of purity culture from the standpoint that it frames people as pure versus impure and it frames sexuality and your purity as something that can be taken from you, but purity is the heart. 0 (27m 11s): It is not something that can just be taken from you. And so I don't like categorizing humans as pure or impure. I view all humanity as fractured a fractured and broken, but beautiful species. And so my framework is more along the lines of sexual integrity and how do we pursue sexual integrity in our lives? Like virginity is something that can be taken from me. Sexual integrity is not. And, and so what does that look like and what does that mean for every person and how, how do we show each other grace in this society for choices that we've made or mistakes that we've made. 0 (27m 56s): And it goes along with the whole punitive justice model of our cancel culture today, in which you, you know, the way that we kind of spar against each other in our society today is, well, I found this one thing that you did 10 years ago. Now I'm going to build a narrative of you based on that, so that I can dismiss you as a human being expunged, your existence, extinguish you from society. And that's just not helpful. It's, it's, you know, I, I much prefer a restorative model of justice in which yeah. We can acknowledge our wrongs mistakes that we've made. 0 (28m 41s): And then, and then in that provide opportunity for growth, like teaching moments. And I just, so, so I'm, I'm grieved over the idea of, you know, having to wear that a, like you said, if you're somebody who has been in the pornographic industry, that, that grieves me, if I was to be held account for mistakes, that I would be made in my life as having to wear an, I mean, it would be crushing. And, and, and so, you know, like Jesus said, let him who, who led him, who was out without saying cast the first stone. I don't, I don't like a society that, that does that, but it is a reality when we talk about people going into the point of entry and what to be prepared for. 0 (29m 29s): One of the things that I discovered is the, the approach of certain agents who would actually recruit young women, knowing that this person is going to, you know, they're going to sort of like, I don't know what the proper term is by age out of porn, after doing just a handful of scenes, we're just getting a handful of scenes from them. And then they're out, like, because, and, and, but selling them on the idea of you're going to be this star and all these very like manipulative and coercive recruitment tactics on the part of agents full well, knowing what, not only what these girls will be subjected to these women be subjected to, but then the lifelong implications of that. 0 (30m 20s): So like get them to sign the release form. I did the C and I made the $2,000, and now you're sort of like ostracized out and live with the knowledge that, that is out there for some people, maybe they're able to make peace with that. But like one performer said, she said, if I could choose between living another 40 years with the knowledge that that content of me was still out there, or one year with that content being fully expunged, she said, I would choose to live that one year. Now this is somebody who had gone into this willingly by her own profession. 0 (31m 2s): And so, yeah, there, there's, it's, it's a significant thing to consider the implications of having, you know, being in that vulnerable place of, of sexual vulnerability and having that published for mass consumption. 1 (31m 21s): Right. And it's one of those chicken and egg situations, right? So it, it's kind of like if you, if you lived in a society that was more graceful and less judgmental and less kind of, you have to align with our morals, otherwise you're divergent and you you're the problem. Right. If we had a society that was more accepting and I guess, tolerant of that behavior, would there be better mental health? Would there be less of that dissonance that is happening? Because it does. I know plenty of performers that are in the same boat, and I know plenty of performance like myself that are like, I don't care. 1 (32m 1s): Like I'm proud of my body of work, all of these things, right. There's, there's both exist at the same time. I do know that even with me being okay with my decisions, that it doesn't say I, I haven't had my struggles and I haven't had, you know, moments of is this all worth it? Because I mean, I have family members that don't talk to me because of my career ones that I was really close with. And it sucks. It was someone that I I've really valued and loved, and I still love, but that's, you know what I mean? But that's not my stuff. That's, that's their stuff that they have to work out. Because again, it comes down to judgment and who is in a place to judge, like, we're all flawed. 1 (32m 43s): Like you said, we've all done things that are less than perfect. And to be in a position where again, you're demonizing an entire group of people because of one decision that you don't agree with, doesn't make sense. So you get a lot of, I live in the south. So there's a lot of people that have an issue with my career choice and you can't deny that impact on mental health. Right. And it's not to say that there's other stuff, cause I've also, I've dealt with stuff on set that if I wasn't who I was, it could have maybe had a longer lasting impact. Right. I'm very, I can be abrasive when I need to, and I can stand up for myself when I need to. And I'm very okay with being disagreeable. 1 (33m 23s): That's kind of my comfort zone. I'm very fortunate in that regard, given the choices that I've made. But I know that that's not the case for a lot of women, right. Women tend to be more agreeable. And especially in those contexts, when you're on set and you're the only woman surrounded by men, and then you have this guilt that no one's going to get paid. If you don't do this, your career is going to be over and you've already done films. So now what are you going to do? There's just a lot of moving parts to this. You do, you know what I mean? So that's when it, when it comes to something like only fans or these other platforms that have verification to me, it's like, that is so necessary. 1 (34m 3s): That's so necessary for the, the safety of these women that have made that choice. Cause I've never been in a threatening situation, PR producing for myself, any threatening situation I've ever been, was working for another company. And sometimes really large companies like you would, you wouldn't be shocked, but some people would be shocked, right? Cause a lot of that is supposed to be above water and it's not necessarily always. So for me, I hope that the future of the industry is, is consenting adults producing for themselves through verification process. Like there, it is verified that they are consenting and of age and that they're not beholden to this mega company that can ruin their lives or can put them in danger. 1 (34m 48s): And I think that that also helps Aleve elliviate illegal content being posted or hopefully, right. I mean there's countries that don't have porn at all that have a lot of, you know, abuse material that's being circulated. So it's like, well, how do you get to that, that root cause right now we're seeing a symptom. So tacking the symptom never extinguishes the problem. So I would love your take on the route and how you plan on tackling it. Cause I've, I've thought about this for a long time. I'm also involved in a trafficking nonprofit. And so it's something that's like dear to my heart because it's one of like the darkest corners I think in humanity. 1 (35m 28s): And it brings tears to my eyes when I think about it, but I'm at a loss. Right. So like how do we find that? 0 (35m 38s): Thanks for your work in that space. That's awesome. Yeah. I think you're raising so many, like really, really huge things that we have to unpack as a society that we have to wrestle with that we have to discuss. I'm trying to figure out what angle to come at it from, because there's a lot here, you know, for us to discuss. Maybe I should just kind of like back out for a second wide and just kind of give a little bit of perspective for how I came into this, because I also think that, you know, as a man, I, I want to be careful how I speak into this space. 0 (36m 24s): A lot of my, a huge, significant portion of my passion and message is to men. And like, where are you coming from? I've even talked with webcam models that describe the experience of webcamming as far more abusive than prostitution because the men feel more entitled to demand certain humiliating and derogatory acts from women, as well as bully them as well as say all kinds of awful things about them. 0 (37m 9s): So the experience of being in front of a web camera, you know, has, has kind of the notion that like, well, this is I'm choosing, you know, in my autonomy to do things very self-contained and all that, but it's putting you in exp in a situation we're going to be exposed to men who often feel entitled, who themselves have grown up in porn culture and, and, and adopted a lot of very toxic ideas and beliefs about women. And then those men are offloading their own existential animosity towards women, their own existential hatred of women onto these women through awful comments. 0 (37m 58s): So if you're a woman in front of that, you know, and you're kind of absorbing that as sort of like the offloaded receptacle of men's rage against women that has mental health damages. So I don't think that there is this kind of like one way to do it that now it's all safe and secure and sanitarian above board. And like, we just don't need to worry about it anymore. I think there's a lot to wrestle with when it comes to this subject of how we treat our sexuality in a, in a world where we have the internet and, you know, we're all kind of in touch with each other. 0 (38m 39s): I don't want to come across as pretending to have all the answers, but I, I do believe that there's a lot that we need to take into consideration and that we need to wrestle with, but would it be okay if I just kind of pull back for a second to give a little bit more of like a framework for where I'm coming from with something else? Okay. 1 (39m 4s): Oh, I was going to say it's to your point. I, that isn't, that was a really good point that you brought up about the camming, right? Like, so it's, you're right. It's not completely sterile and there's going to be some effects of that. And we see that even with social media, right? So I think you don't necessarily need that, that sexual angle for that to be true, you can simply be a woman that exists in social media and you're going to be harassed. It's an unfortunate response to the anonymity that these people think that they have. And I don't really know how you solve that either. Do you know what I mean? Because then you get into censoring or first amendment encroaches, or you get someone that's tracking your IP to make you verify you are who you say you are before you log on to social. 1 (39m 51s): So that becomes that slippery slope argument. I don't like it more than the next guy. I don't even read half of my comments. Otherwise I would lose my mind. And this is on public forums. You know what I mean? And I have a canvas Instagram that is nothing. There's zero sex appeal on, on that is podcast. It's family. It's my horse. It's, it's real me. And it exists just as much there as it does on my other profiles. 0 (40m 18s): Wow. Well, it's, it's, it's hard. It's yeah, it's awful to hear that. I, I think that on one hand there are, there is illegal, there are illegal things happening within the section industry, you know, trafficking, things that we've talked about on PornHub, non-contiguous nonconsensual, all of that. So that's an area where I hope that, you know, all this can find agreement on the side of things as you bring up that are technically considered legal. Then I think on that side of things, there's just a lot for us to wrestle with. And I think there are areas where we'll find agreement and areas where we may disagree, but I don't, like I said, I don't think it's just something to say, well, this is legal. 0 (41m 2s): So then, you know, we don't just don't have to worry about it. It's. So for me personally, I grew up as the youngest of four children. I was very sheltered in a way in my like young childhood. We didn't have, you know, not to age myself here, but we didn't have like social media and, you know, all that stuff that kids have access to. Now, today I was out hunting for snakes and riding motorcycles and surfing, and I'm doing, doing stuff that kids do in Southern California. 0 (41m 42s): But when I was 11 years old, I watched a movie called the accused. And this is a movie where Jodie foster plays this woman named Cheryl, Cheryl Arroyo. And, and it's the real story is the true story of her gang rape in this bar. And then her ensuing fight for justice. And, you know, I don't know what kept me so sheltered necessarily as a young child, aside from just being a different time. But, and I don't know how I stumbled on that movie at 11 years old, but it definitely marked my life. And it, it really, I think it like broke part of me, just the awareness that humans could treat each other this way. 0 (42m 34s): And I thought at that time, rape has to be the worst thing that could ever happen to a person. So I, my, I was basically raised by my two older sisters, my mom and my grandmother. So I had a very, a lot of influence from women in my life. And I think as a result of that developed a unique identification with the experience of women from a young age, that was very normal to me. And the experience of both of those things culminated when I discovered the issue of sex trafficking and realized that yeah, rape this thing that really had a devastating impact on me as a kid, just seeing that happen. 0 (43m 26s): And this movie was happening around the world at a large scale. And I think that when I discovered sex trafficking, that the part of me that was impacted as a child came fully up and I was just completely wrecked by that. And yeah, it's, it's very emotional for me because it's very personal. 0 (44m 6s): Like we work with people whose lives have been destroyed by this, and it's hard to separate myself from that and just put it as like an issue or a statistic. So that really sent me on a journey of focusing my life on this. And there was a long period of time where it was hard to go to bed at night without women and girls out there who were in these situations. And so that definitely created this kind of like desperation to make a difference in this space. And that drove me into addressing the issue of sex trafficking. 0 (44m 48s): For four years, I traveled the world, documenting it everywhere that it was happening and the creation of a documentary called nefarious merchant of souls. It was my first documentary. And, and through that began to see some overlapping realities tie to the porn industry. And so in 2012, I kind of went back to the drawing board to look at this issue of pornography and decided to dig into it a bit deeper, again, just thinking of the sex trafficking component, but then looking at the pornography from the standpoint of its impact on consumers and our world, as well as the creation of it, the human rights side of it. 0 (45m 44s): So the public health and the human rights side of it, the way in which pornography was being created. I, and so that is, that is initially what, what sent me into researching and investigating pornography. There's such an extreme reaction to any criticism of pornography that it's almost like, Hey, just leave us entirely alone to do our own thing, or you are the devil, you know, and for me, it's like, what other industry do we allow that like, what other multi-billion dollar industry goes completely self-regulated without any outside criticism? 0 (46m 33s): So when I began to investigate the porn industry realized the degree to which elements of trafficking and exploitation and predatory behavior were just utterly rampant. I'm not talking about illegal rape porn, child porn. I'm talking about the main stream porn industry was rife with coercion, trafficking, exploitation violence. And I talked with scores of producers, directors, performers. I couldn't even believe some of the things that they share with me and some of the things that I personally observed. 0 (47m 18s): And so it was really through that journey that I've come into this space, not like from a perspective of shame on you, you are the impure, you know, porn people this like holier than now judgemental, yada yada, no, I came into this as somebody with a broken heart that I've never recovered from that I can barely ever talk about this issue without getting very emotional. Cause it, yeah, it's, it's a really real and difficult subject to figure out like what's going on and discovered that there was all this exploitation happening. 0 (48m 5s): So if you don't want the criticism then clean up your act. But if you're going to allow people like max hardcore to be voted into the hall of fame as representative and emblematic of your entire industry, you're begging, you're begging for people to come and bring criticism and it, it needs it, it needs it. One performed pornographer told me this. He said, this is how I do it. He explained it to me. He said, I tell these young women that they're going to make X number of dollars doing X, you know, vanilla sex act. 0 (48m 48s): He said, and I do that very intentionally to one, get them to spend that money in their head before they ever get to set. So they can't get out of whatever it is I'm going to ask them to do and to, to get them to set. He said, then in the middle of the scene, I flipped the script and now you need to do this, this and this in order to get paid. And he said, by virtue of the pressure onset the fact that she spent the money in her head and all the underlying dynamics that go with that, just which maybe we could break down later, but he's like, of course she's going to do it. 0 (49m 28s): He said, and then he said, he said to me at that point, how is that not trafficking? I couldn't even believe that he said that this was coming straight from the horse's mouth. This was literally coming from a producer telling me that his entire model of recording pornography is based on a system of coercion that he acknowledges is trafficking. And, and yet is sold to the public as she wanted this. She loves this, she deserves this. So I talked to a lot of these performers who have a Twitter page or a social media presence or whatever that, how this appearance of, I love this. 0 (50m 9s): I like this, I enjoy this, but behind the scenes were totally broken and, you know, just completely open about the exploitation that they had to endure the abuse that they had endured. And so what I, what began to happen for me is that I began to see past the two dimensional presentation of women in pornography to the three-dimensional human, who actually has real life experiences, preferences histories, you know, and, and is somebody worthy of compassion, not just being viewed as this sex object. 0 (50m 51s): So that compassionate lens has really changed the way that I interact with this whole reality of pornography. And I tried to come at it from a compassionate lens, but also with objective thinking and a critical thinking lens to engage, you know, and, and really substantive discussions about areas where this kind of exploitation needs to be addressed and eradicated for the safety of everyone, for the safety of people who were being featured in it, and the safety of people who are viewing it. And so, anyhow, I just, I wanted just to give that bigger frameworks, because, you know, as soon as people slap a religious label on you, there's all kinds of assumptions that come with that and they don't belong to me. 0 (51m 44s): Like what I see in the life of Jesus is somebody who not only came through, literally the lineage of some of the prostituted women. He, the blood of prostitute women is literally flowing in his body, but showed enormous compassion in his day for people who are in sexually promiscuous positions. So I like, for me, it's not like, Ooh, gross. It's like, I'm very aware of my own brokenness. I'm aware of the brokenness of our planet. I have a compassionate lens to address it. I don't, I'm not coming at this from a heavy handed top down hyper religious shame-based way. 0 (52m 24s): And I think that's important to req, to just say for the purpose of conversation, because when shame becomes a part of the conversation, it's just, it's hard. It's hard. I don't like feeling shamed. I don't want anybody else to feel shamed. So, but I think these issues are really, really, really important. And that's where I kind of hold the line. 1 (52m 49s): Yeah. That's a lot. So I feel like, I feel like it's important to establish how each of us is defining, I guess, exploitation and trafficking, right. Just so we can make sure we're on the same level. So for me, exploitation is, and again, I think there's a difference between consenting and consciously consenting. And I don't know how you even go about making sure that someone is fully aware about the decisions that they're going to be making. That's a whole other animal to tackle, but when it comes exploitation, I would say that it's being coerced into doing something, whether it's physically, mentally, even geographically, like I've been in situations where I've had companies fly me to the UK, I show up on set and it is not something that I, they know contractually that I don't do. 1 (53m 43s): And they are hoping that I'm going to do it. But of course me being me, I left, but not everyone would, would do that. So I would say that, that, that could be exploitation when it comes to trafficking. I would say again, it has to do with, with consent, right? So it's, is this person a willing, happy participant or not? And I guess that's like the very dumbed down version of how I view those things. 0 (54m 8s): No, that's, that's, that's exactly right. And yeah, the trafficking is, is the use of force fraud or coercion for the purpose of a commercial sex act. And, you know, when we talk about the realm of sex trafficking, and so, so I I'm in complete agreement with that definition. And unfortunately for me, well, not for me, but for these poor vulnerable women that were being preyed upon in the sex industry, it was basically the backdrop of everything that I saw. Now. I don't, there are, I met some really great people in the porn industry. I, you know, we're going to completely have differences on our lifestyle choices and values and things like that. 0 (54m 51s): Fine. But I really enjoyed and came to like a lot of the people that I met, some of them, I still keep in touch with to this very day. So, you know, it's, it's, again, I don't want to be guilty of creating a caricature. I don't, it's not like every person that goes into the porn industry is evil, you know, but, so, so just to clarify that, but the normalization of the use of coercion as a part of like the backdrop for the production of so much pornography or the recruitment of people into it was mind blowing. 0 (55m 32s): Like I could not have fathomed. How, how widespread that would be. I talked to one performer who you undoubtedly know, she's a contract performer, and this was back in 2013 and we sat down together and now mind you, this is a contract performer. One of the rare who can actually be described as a porn star. And we sat down, I had not even asked a question and I just sat there. And she was sitting across from, I was kind of like getting my audio, you know, figured out. I just kinda like took a deep breath and then she started and she was like, she said, I'm going to tell you something that I've never told anybody before. 0 (56m 18s): And she said, and I don't know why I'm telling it to you now, but I just feel compelled to tell you this. And she proceeded to tell me her story of getting into the porn industry, which is, which was a, a story of trafficking. And again, here is somebody who is held up as the one who has chosen this likes, this deserves this, whatever that cover narrative is that says, this is all above board. She's an autonomous empowered, liberated individual that she fit that mold outwardly publicly, like, and to, to support this cover narrative. But the reality of her own story was one of trafficking. 0 (57m 1s): And so even in those cases, that appear above board. There's so much that we don't know. And as a potential consumer of pornography, you know, it, it, I, which, you know, I, I'm not, I'm not a consumer of pornography, but just that fact, if I was a potential consumer of pornography would be enough for me to go. Like, I just don't, I don't feel safe, fueling an industry in which you don't really know what's going on half the time. 0 (57m 42s): And so that's why I say a lot of my message is really directed at men because it's not, it's not even so much, like why are women going into this and doing this? It's like, why do you need to cultivate your sexuality by looking at a screen and, or buying some, or paying somebody to do something for you? Like, do you have a foolproof way to qualify that person's choices in life? And, you know, if you don't, then what does that say about you like that, that you're willing to compromise the integrity of this, you know, person through your choices. 0 (58m 25s): So, yeah. 1 (58m 29s): So you, so I, I agree. I actually wrote this piece on ethical porn years back, and I know maybe to some, some of your followers or supporters would be like, that's an oxymoron. It can't exist. But in my mind, I think it absolutely can. And it's by somehow being able to have some verification again, that the set was ethical. There was no coercion, all participants are willing and <inaudible> yada, yada, yada. And again, we're, we're probably going to disagree is when I look at porn, I see it as an, I see it as being able to provide a lot of things, right? Like it can be just entertainment, right? Whether you like it or not, I hate violent films, but nonetheless, it is entertainment for some people. 1 (59m 13s): And I think it's, it's similar to a lot of, a lot of things that make our brain go crazy, right? Like alcohol touch, eating. Some things can be a problem for some people, right. And that's, that's a reality. And I absolutely think that needs to be tackled. Like some people have a problem with food. I can go eat ice cream or a cheeseburger, and it's not going to ruin my life. But for some people that could ruin their life, right. If they're extremely obese, it's a problem. And it comes down to a lot of, a lot of factors that we probably don't even have time to get into, but, but fundamentally self control. 1 (59m 54s): Right. And self-regulation and accountability. I totally agree with you in the sense that I wish that there was a way that before you consumed content, you knew without a doubt that it was ethical, ethical content, right? Because unfortunately you vote with your dollar. So whatever you're spending your money on, you are helping to lift up that, that industry, if you will. So again, when it comes to third-party platforms, I think that there is a lot of work that needs to be done. I just don't know what those steps are because for me, I think out of the question is, is banning the industry because prohibition doesn't work. 1 (1h 0m 34s): We've seen it in a lot of things, and it tends to make things a little bit messier. And even when you talk to people that like their sole mission is to find these women and children that are being trafficked, the further you push people under underground, the harder it is to find them. So that kind of doesn't help anybody right. Is to abolish everything. So when it comes to regulation, I have this, this buddy of mine, that's way smarter than I am. And we talk about really big world problems and all the crazy stuff that's happening, happening in the news. And he, he kind of says, you have to look at issues as not for my house, not for my community, not for my state, not for my country, not for the world. 1 (1h 1m 16s): And then that kind of implies the level of regulation and how much you want the government involved in those decisions that you're making. Right. So you might not like what's going to get me canceled today. You might not like the, I, the idea of same-sex marriage, right. I'm sure that still exists in, in communities and in individuals. So you have to say, do I not like that for my house? Like, I'm not going to do that. Do I not like that for my state state's rights and hope and vote for them to make it illegal? Do I not like that for my country? Hopefully the federal government makes it illegal or do I, not that I do not want that for the world. And I try to, you know, expand upon that. 1 (1h 1m 58s): So I look at porn the same way is it not for my house? And I'm going to teach my family my values around explicit content and yada yada, and scale out. So when it comes to regulation, I guess, where do you see a solution for this is like, is your solution to abolish everything? Because that's like the way that it's just not accessible, accessible to the main masses online, even though we both know, like the dark web exists and it's still going to happen one way or another, or is it re regulation? And if so, what kind of regulation do you see working? 0 (1h 2m 34s): Yeah, that's a great question. I, I do not agree with a top down model that okay. I gotta, I wanna try to think about how to, how to address this subject, I think with regards to, okay. So let me make a distinction here. So I'm just kind of like trying to find my thought process. The distinction that I want to make is, is first of all, as you know, a lot for, so for whatever reason, if you happen to be somebody who is a Christian in our society today, there's all kinds of stuff that comes with that, as opposed to any other religion in which it's never even a consideration. 0 (1h 3m 29s): Like nobody says, you know, about Steven Spielberg when he makes a movie. Yeah. But you're a Jew. Like it's, it's, it's, it's not even in the discussion, but as soon as people find out that you're a Christian, there's all these assumptions that are made about you. So I just want to clarify that I do not believe in imposing upon society, beliefs, practices, ideas, things that they don't subscribe to. So there's definitely a distinction. And I think that is true for any religion. If you are a Christian, a Catholic, a Jewish person, if you're an atheist person, if you're, if you're a Muslim person, whatever, there are certain, you know, moral guidelines. 0 (1h 4m 19s): If you will, ethics that you subscribe to as a result of your belief system. Now where some of the church has gotten into trouble is trying to take beliefs that apply to them specifically based on their subscription to this and in a top-down way, impose that on society or pose that on an individuals by law. And that, that is where things get really tricky and dangerous. And so that's an example of this would be Sharia law, you know, where like, you know, if I live in whatever country that has Sharia law, but I'm not a Muslim, like I don't like, I'm like, I don't, and let's say I'm a woman. 0 (1h 5m 4s): And it's like, look, I don't believe what you believe. And I want you to go drive, stop trying to tell me I can't drive because I don't, I don't believe what you believe like, and, you know, it's that way across the board with a lot of issues. So, and you know, that has, that is one that has come up on the gay marriage front of people feeling like, dude, like, I don't believe what you believe. Why are you trying to use your belief system to impose on me something that I don't subscribe to like that. And, and, and I think when the church puts stuff in that position actually undermines the spirit of Christ that who came to kind of disrupt the hierarchal system of religion of his day to deconstruct that. 0 (1h 6m 3s): And, and so in my experience and my belief system, God gives humanity the dignity of a will and for every person to choose what they believe, what they don't believe, what they subscribe to, what they don't subscribe to. So, so that is, so I, first of all, fundamentally believe in that the right, the free will now when it comes to governing our society, it's I think it's okay for me to be influenced by my faith, but those decisions that we have to make as a society center, more around a civil discourse about ethics, not, I believe this, therefore you have to subscribe to it. 0 (1h 6m 51s): And so in the realm of civil discourse, as, you know, caring citizens that hopefully want to build an ethical society for the betterment of everybody. Yeah. There's a lot, there's a lot to discuss there. And when it comes to pornography, I don't think that you, I think the issue is, you know, to respect the law, to respect the constitution, to respect people's differences of opinion than mine, but to find the areas that do need regulation and hopefully build agreement about that, to mitigate, minimize, eradicate, exploitation, trafficking, those kinds of things. 0 (1h 7m 39s): And, and so, so yeah, so I don't, I don't feel like the way forward is, you know, to come down in this top-down way and ban it all. Yeah. And impose something that, you know, in, in, in, in a very real sense may fall within, you know, certain legal protections. Like if those legal protections exist, they exist, you know? And, and, and so I think that the way forward is really to look at the areas that, that do need regulation that fall outside of those legal areas to work together, to address those with regulations, and then to continue having conversations about the areas that are more gray. 0 (1h 8m 29s): That's another thing is like, there's an ant, it's very polarized right now. There's an anti-porn and a pro porn movement. And it's like very black and white and very all or nothing, and very, and you know, the reality of human life. And the reality of all of this is there are many shades of gray and, and there are certainly things that are black and white, but there are other things that are, you know, all kinds of shades of gray. And that's where we have to wrestle. That's what produces humility. That's what causes people like you and I to have a conversation with each other. And, and hopefully you learned some things from each other. So yeah, that's a bit of a roundabout and complicated way of answering your question. 0 (1h 9m 13s): But I think all those qualifiers are important as a part of, you know, like I said, deconstructing some of this polarized thinking and also addressing a, I have a friend who is in seminary and he posted something the other day on his Facebook page. That was like, man, like when I look at scripture, I read about values like grace and mercy and kindness and compassion and blah, blah, blah. But any time I make a statement about anything that has to do with what I believe or whatever, it's these vicious Christians coming up and commenting. 0 (1h 9m 54s): And it's the exact opposite of what I see in scripture. So none of us are immune from the propensity of as humanity to be used to be. Mean-spirited judgmental, harsh people, you know, it affects everyone. So yeah. So anyhow, I think that's what I would say about that. 1 (1h 10m 21s): Yeah. It's I, I agree that there's a lot of gray area, right? Like we can't say again, it's one of those tricky subjects and it's not to get you on my team or me on your team, but it's like, how can we co-exist with the least amount of damage done at scale. Right. So again, where do you, where do you start with regulation? Because when was this, this was years ago, I was still shooting for mainstream and OSHA got super involved with the industry for a minute. And they, at one point were basically just shy of having to wear a hazmat suit onset because something they were talking about specifically like STDs and being able to mitigate that risk. 1 (1h 11m 10s): And it was dental dams. And I kid you not goggles and other things like, well, that's not, that's, there's no industry there. Maybe for like some person that's like specifically into, to goggles. I don't know. But for everyone else, that's not gonna, that's not going to work and that's not a viable solution. So when it comes to regulation, it's like, do we change the age of entry does, right? Because you have to be 21 to drink. Now you have to be 21 to smoke. You have to be 18 days of tanning bed in North Carolina. There are ages of entry for things. So does that move up to 21? Does the age of consumption move to 21? 1 (1h 11m 50s): If so, and then if that's one part, will you also, 21 is still pretty young and your brain's still not fully developed. So how do you mitigate the risk of coercion? How do you make sure that they're consenting, like they're fully consenting, like they've thought about this five, 10 years down the road and is it something that they really want to get into? Cause again, as it stands now, it's not something that you can just remove yourself from. So I don't see a place where regulation is gonna make a dent to a point. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. Do you have any, any thoughts 0 (1h 12m 31s): When it comes to kind of like the human rights side of the equation, which is how pornography is being created? I think there's a couple factors to consider. One is the issue of consent. And, and how do you achieve authentic consent within a high pressure context where money is part of the equation? And in my view, that's, it's, that's very difficult because the reality is that consent is a very low bar for establish, for authenticating a sexual experience or sexual encounter. 0 (1h 13m 17s): The higher bar is mutuality. And when it comes to something as intimate as sex, see, I, I just don't think that that sex and desire can be separated. I think that sex and desire are inextricably linked. And when you, when you have sex without desire, it is violation regardless of somebody who's being paid for it. So I think fundamentally the issue of consent comes right into focus. And I think it's a very difficult one to, to navigate because the fact is that consent can be bribed. Consent can be coerced. Consent can be manipulated. I've seen the way that consent forms are used, where a, this is one scenario, real life, one producer, producer, director performer, has the person signed the consent form before the scene. 0 (1h 14m 12s): Then in this case, does a vanilla sex scene with them, does an after exit interview of the person saying that they consented and how great it was, then invited them back for a second scene and proceeded to rape them for hours. And then, and then put it out there in this very deceptive way to say, look, we have a consent form and here's her after saying it was all great. She played the role of a victim. This is all above board. And so the subject of consent with regards to sexuality is something very significant and where I personally have some really just fundamental inherent issues with the way that that is handled in the sex industry. 0 (1h 15m 3s): I think it's very difficult to achieve authentic, enthusiastic consent in a high pressure context where money's involved. And, and so that being said currently there is virtually no regulation with regards to qualifying the consent of people other than sign this form. And therefore, and then there's the video evidence of this being put out there as though you consented to it. It's very disempowering to performers and I've heard performance talking about this. And I think what needs to happen is to create a system in which performers are able to have more power and bringing accountability into situations in which their consent was coerced, bribed, taken advantage of et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, where right now that's almost non-existent. 0 (1h 16m 2s): I observed, you know, Ron Jeremy interacting with people years ago in which I was just baffled by the level of like his disregard for people's boundaries and just grope just openly like groping people and an expectation that this is all just part of the part of the deal. So there's a question in the sex industry of how do you protect the boundaries of your own sexual experience? And I've asked some people this and, and how, how do you define the boundaries of your own sexual experience? And, and the answer is basically you don't get to like, well, that is sexual violation. 0 (1h 16m 43s): So, so how do you solve that? I think step one is, you know, to address the issue of consent in a way that really tries to drive out the people who would take advantage of that, the porn industry. Sorry, go ahead. 1 (1h 17m 5s): I was gonna say no that, I mean, that's spot on. So in the, of my career, it all made sense, right? You come in, you sign all your paperwork and at the end you do the exit interview and they're like, did you have a good time willing participant? And you're like, yeah, yeah, right. Not a problem. Oh, look, this is like a quick, easy way to make sure everyone's happy. And then a few years into it, one of my girlfriends, and again, one of the few people that you could actually call a porn star, like a very famous performer had been assaulted on set with another very famous performer. And she, again, she's been in the industry for over a decade, very reputable, respectable sign did the exit interview because she was terrified. 1 (1h 17m 50s): And then later decided like, no, I need to do something about this. And then they use the exit interview as evidence that she was lying, all of these things. Right. So I totally agree with you. It's definitely not foolproof. And again, it always gets me back to third party platforms because I would imagine, I wish I had hard statistics on this because I feel like that would be more helpful. But I would imagine that most of the creators that are on say like an only fans or comparable website, it's probably like a boyfriend and a girlfriend. It's probably a lot of solo stuff. Right. It's stuff that you can verifiably say, this isn't abuse material. It's not to say that none exists. Right? Like it's still not perfect, but I would imagine it's a lot less than a Facebook for sure. 1 (1h 18m 34s): Cause I think that, that they definitively found that and it's a lot less and it mainstream site, like as far as your, your propensity to be abused or be in a sticky situation. So I think that's one thing that needs to be, be looked at and as like a perspective solution, I do think whatever did happen again, they got a lot stricter with their age verification and I think that's a great thing, right? Again, it was hard for me to get approved after having an account for years and being a relatively famous person within, in, within the industry. So it is strict now. I don't think I do. 1 (1h 19m 14s): I'm like I do like the idea of an ID. I feel like those, like you're, you're starting to get some traction, right? I think it's taking away the power from these large companies and giving the power more to the produce or to the content creators rather than these people that are so many levels detached from giving a shit about the performer. Right. If you're all the way up in Montreal and something happens in LA, you don't care, you've never met that person. And that's just part of your bottom line. 0 (1h 19m 45s): Well, it it's, it's in my view, it's, it's the way that the entire industry is set up, that functions as a system of exploitation and it functions as a very predatory system that is set up to take advantage of and exploit people. And that, that is across the board. So I wouldn't even say put the power in the hands of the content creators. You have to give more power to the performers and you have to give it to them on a personal level, but also through the protection. 1 (1h 20m 15s): Should I met with the content creators like me, right. The performance. Right. 0 (1h 20m 20s): Okay. Gotcha. Because even like the agents, for example, like allegation, you know, found that the agents were absolutely complicit in the entire predatory system. And here's an example, when you sign up with an agency, they have you fill out your yes and no list, things that you're willing to do versus things that you won't do well immediately at the outset there's pressure to say yes to everything. Because if you don't then the, then the agent puts pressure on you. Well then I'm not going to get you work. And maybe they don't say it exactly that way, but that's, it's understood that that's part of the implication and it goes way beyond even what's going on. And, and, and the pornography itself, like the, the biggest agent in the industry who in a way kind of like monopolize, the entire industry is a guy named Derek hay who went by the performer name of Ben English. 0 (1h 21m 14s): Almost every person I interviewed in porn had some crazy encounter with this guy, either as a performer or as an agent, whether it being abused by him when he was a performer or whether being taken advantage of by him as an agent. And it came out then recently in the past year or two, that he was being indicted on, he was under investigation for some kind of like trafficking charges. And basically it appears, it alleges that he had set up this and many people actually told me this as well, set up some private escort business in which if you worked for him in pornography and he was your agent, then you were expected to also work on the side doing escorting, which is a whole other reality and entity. 0 (1h 22m 2s): And so the, the sex industry currently, and, and the porn industry currently is set up in such a predatory way and in such an unregulated way that I just think there has to be all kinds of awareness about these dynamics. So that young impressionable girls who are being recruited into this or thinking, this is a good idea to go into this are better informed about the reality of what's going on. So one thing you mentioned that I think is an idea worth exploring is like, okay, clearly with alcohol, we say that, you know, that there's gotta be a certain age of responsibility where, you know, we, you know, we figure out like based on our neurological development, our emotional 1 (1h 22m 57s): Substance. 0 (1h 22m 58s): Exactly, exactly. And to, to actually go into a store and to start buying this. And we've said that that age should be 21, the frontal cortex of our brain, which doesn't even fully, which is the judgment center of our brain, which he doesn't even fully mature until our mid twenties is. I mean, that's, it's, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot of substantive kind of reasoning and rationale for imposing a 21 year old age limit for purchasing alcohol. But we say that you can go at 18 years old, straight out of high school into an extremely predatory industry that has proven itself for decades, not to self-regulate to take advantage of people, you know, that, that, that is very concerning. 0 (1h 23m 48s): So yeah, I think given a few years and space from that, somebody might be able to have a more mature level-headed decision about whether this is the best choice for their life. So I think that's probably something worth considering and something where it's worth wrestling with. Would you, people like you who are like more level-headed grounded and just have more, a better sense of yourself and what you're comfortable with, what you're not comfortable with that kind of maturity, you know, comes with age. 0 (1h 24m 30s): And it comes with a lot of factors. Like if obviously, you know, people growing up in a broken home are going to have be more vulnerable and so on and so forth. There are people in the porn industry who have made very calculated decisions on how to order their career, starting here, going here, going here, going here. And, you know, and I respect those individuals, their choice, their free will. And, and I met people whose experience was, you know, more, I guess you could say above board, if you will. 0 (1h 25m 14s): But that was the rare exception. I mean, the vast majority of everybody that I met had all, all had stories like across the board of exploitation and even those individuals who, who were much more grounded and much more level-headed and much more intentional had to work hard, not to be exploited and had to be able to say no over and over and over. So it's not like this like super safe industry that really respects people's subjectivity and, and respects people's, you know, autonomy and no, it's, it's, it's a lot of like guys coming in with an agenda and really trying to push people to help create the kind of thing that's in their head, which oftentimes is may experience as very abusive. 0 (1h 26m 12s): So it's a it's shark infested waters. I don't, I don't, again, I'm not saying that as like a judgemental religious person. I'm saying that as a caring citizen, like my, my religious beliefs aside, like as a concerned citizen, these are ethical issues that really concerned me. So I do think that that is one area of regulation that is definitely worth considering 1 (1h 26m 40s): <inaudible>. So we're do a thought experiment and you can plead the fifth, but let's say I'm only fans takes on your model of HVAC air, age verification on both ends user and consumer. So now it's, let's say 21, let's say they make it, you have to be 21 to view what they categorize as an explicit page, because they do have some creators that just simply cook and do Pilates, believe it or not. I, you know, I don't get it, but it's there. So to, let's say, they'd take all the explicit content and that's in one bucket. And if you want to access that bucket, you have to be 21. 1 (1h 27m 22s): And we verify through government issued ID. We also are verifying on the backend that everyone is at least we'll say 21 to, just for continuity. So they're 21 as well. And all above board, everyone is consenting had a great time. Let's say, even in fact, that all content created was between a married couple or by themselves solo. Would you say that that is, that's great. Not like not great, like you agree with it, but like that's fine. Mission accomplished. And like, let's go tackle some other areas or is there still going to be an issue because explicit content is there and there's a chance that someone gets a fake ID or right. 1 (1h 28m 8s): Is it like a never ending 0 (1h 28m 10s): You're right, right, right, right. Yeah. Totally. No, yeah. That's helpful. I think it's helpful to kind of put that framework out there because it does, it does kind of raise the issue of like, well, where does this end? What I, what I want to say is that there, there is a distinction for me between my critique of pornography and the larger global commercial sex industry and the activism that I am pushing for. So I have a critique of the large, larger, global commercial sex industry that, you know, maybe we'll get more into that, but is, it's definitely critical of the entire global commercial sex industry, but respects, like we've talked about before, people's free choice autonomy and, and certain legalities that are protected by our constitution. 0 (1h 29m 24s): So, so it's not to say that just because I have a criticism of the global commercial sex industry that I'm pushing for, you know, all of these things, you know, on an, on an activism side of it, the scenario that you just mentioned would be a huge win. That is something that I hope we could all celebrate together, which is, you know, like, let me just bring this up. As an example, Twitter has become the marketing arm of the porn industry. So if you are someone who is in pornography, in all likelihood, you have a Twitter page in which you promote and market your pornography. 0 (1h 30m 5s): Well, if you go on to Twitter, I mean, I have been subjected to like the most abusive, horrific image, like pornographic images that just immediately pop up, like, so there, there, there, and Twitter, that's not against their terms of service. Like it's fully compliant with their terms of service. And at the same time, they welcome people age 13 and up to have an account on Twitter. So what are you, are you an account? Are you a platform for children or a platform for adults? Well, we want everybody so, okay. So by their own terms of service are complicit in subjecting children to content that we have said is adult content. 0 (1h 30m 52s): There's so many things like that across the board. So the scenario that you presented, where we could begin to put age verification walls in place that require government ID for people to access this material is a huge step in the right direction. That's part of our campaign that we're doing right now, protect children, not porn. And, and basically what we're saying is, is like that the internet has been set up in a way that totally caters to the pornographers, just proliferating content, wherever they want, without any restrictions at all, because it's become this alternate universe, it's become a city without walls. 0 (1h 31m 33s): In ancient times, you pull a, put a wall around your city to protect from invaders and, you know, predatory animals and things like that. But in the context of our modern day times with the internet and children, we know are online from young ages, there are no walls. So it, it's not just an issue of parents regulating. I can't, I can't regulate what my son sees on his friend's phone. Like it's an issue of pornography trespassing into the lives of children by virtue of not being behind these HR vacation walls. So I think that is a huge, enormous step in the right direction where we could like collectively agree that like, this is, you know, where this content belongs. 0 (1h 32m 19s): Otherwise, why are we calling it adult content? You know? And so, yeah. And then on the, so that I think for me, it would address a huge part of the like public health concern of, of childhood exposure to pornography. And then on the human rights side of this, how is this being created? Yeah. It just, I think needs a, definitely a more stringent model for qualifying the consent of individuals that are being featured in pornographic content. 0 (1h 32m 60s): I don't know how to go about that. And I would love to continue this discourse with people who are in the porn industry to help figure that out, you know? 1 (1h 33m 14s): Well, you're a public enemy number one. So I don't know if that's going to happen. 0 (1h 33m 19s): Yeah. And not saying that that will, that this course will even come from me. But I think it's a conversation that people in the porn industry should be having because currently the system is set up to prefer the complicity and collusion between agents and producers and directors in creating exploitation of content, a context for performers. And so, yeah. What do you, how do you, 1 (1h 33m 56s): No, it's super interesting. I actually know Derek too. Him and my husband have had words. He is a very shitty person. So I used to do a feature dance. So that's essentially when strip clubs book you and you show up and sign autographs and dance and whatever. And he was my agent for that, not for film. And even with that, just like the biggest bully that you've ever ever met. And if you want to see an industry that is garbage it's strip club owners, and it's like, it's the most toxic environment. I've seen stuff that I didn't even know existed when I was featuring. And that ended very, very, very quickly because I couldn't, I couldn't handle it. 1 (1h 34m 42s): The problem with the agents is so they double dip and essentially in mainstream, you're not supposed to be able to collect from both the production side and the talent side, you kind of have to pick and choose. And then what the adult industry there, they're getting paid a booking fee from the, and then also a pretty hefty fee from the performer. So they're already are loyalties are split, and there's no way that you can properly defend your talent. If you also rely on getting paid from these companies that are often the ones that are doing the exploitation or putting the girls in a bad situation. So I see a work around where they are. They actually are upheld to that law that they cannot collect from the porn companies. 1 (1h 35m 27s): They can only collect from the talent so that that line is drawn. But then you have to hope that again, that there's honest actors that are the agents. And unfortunately they, they see a lot of the girls as commodities. And I was with one of the bigger agencies. It was a woman. So a lot of times you will think that women are, you know, a safer bet than the men in the industry. And that's not necessarily the case. And even as like a relatively young person going into the industry and kind of being a little Doughwhite and seeing all these opportunities and contracts and toy lines, like all of these opportunities to make what I would call serious income, right. 1 (1h 36m 8s): For the rest of my life. Like my toy line is as long as they decide to carry that I will get paid for that. That's amazing, right? There's very few opportunities that you can create a product that you get paid in your sleep. So that is an amazing opportunity. But then you have these agents that see that and they're like, well, we brought that to you. So we're going to take a cut. So now your cut goes from like 12% to 6%. And then that keeps getting dwindled. And then it goes to this other company and it's them seeing the opportunity. So how do you have an honest actor come in to have the girl's best interests at heart? And I think one of the problems is, is again, the industry is so stigmatized that it keeps away what could be good people that do help these girls. 1 (1h 36m 52s): Right. But they don't want to be associated with the industry because again of that red a so you're, you're kind of creating a barrier and only attracting moths to the flame. And you can't really do that unless you have more of a tolerant look at sex. And it's not to say it's hard because again, it's, you're almost in this paradox because I don't like how sexual everything is. And I know that's going to sound crazy to people, but I don't want people to think what I do is normal because it's not. And I know that it's not, it's kind of, you know, living this wild, wild west lifestyle. And there are some consequences that come from that. 1 (1h 37m 34s): And I'm totally okay with being a cowboy. Like that's where I belong, but that's not the lifestyle that I want for my daughter if I were to have one. And that's not one that I would want to push onto the masses, I think it's a very specific person that should exist in that space. So how do you at at one point honor that, and like the truth of that while also de-stigmatizing it on a scale to where I'm not ostracized for my decisions and then no one looks at that industry as, as being assessed pool, right? So that you can get up honorable people that are participating. I don't really know. And I think that's a lot of the problem, right. 1 (1h 38m 15s): Is that's a terrible industry and only terrible people are involved. So then you, by default only attract terrible people, you know, and again, it's, I think it's really cool that you've specified on several times that you don't use your religion as your main argument, right? Like obviously that does influence you undoubtedly. And I think it's so important. 0 (1h 38m 42s): It's, it's the way that it influences me, that I think is important to acknowledge. And because that is so deeply misunderstood and misrepresented, I mean, I get it it's misrepresented. So I get why people come to certain conclusions for me, when I view the life of Jesus, I see a life that was characterized by love and compassion and somebody who, who specifically said through the story of the good Samaritan, that the way in which to qualify the authenticity of somebody's faith is by embodying a life of love and compassion. 0 (1h 39m 24s): And also one in which dignifies, the free will choice of individuals, what Jesus was continually doing was disrupting the hierarchy of the system of powerful religious control over people and, and these, and so, so, so for me, I, it's not, I come into this from a place of love and compassion. And, and what I see is the victimization of a lot of people that hurts me. And that compels me to want to do something, to create a better world for them. 0 (1h 40m 12s): Now that's where it translates into my role as a citizen. It's not just that I'm informed by my faith. That's I, I'm not taking the Sen 10 commands guy, you know, forcing now it's just, people are going to do what they want, like people can. And like I said, it's across the board. You know, we all have some kind of faith in something, even if we were an atheist well, that now I believe that God doesn't exist and that's a belief, you know? So, I mean, it's, we're all as human struggling to understand our existence in my cosmological view of the world, that makes the most sense that there's a creator who has set everything up and has a plan and a purpose for us. And I find dignity and meaning in that, and through the model of see somebody who lived a life of love and compassion, that's where I'm at as a citizen, living in a world with many people who have different views on how this all works. 0 (1h 41m 5s): I want to have a respectful discourse about addressing situations in which people are not just exploited, but exploited in a routine systematized way. And, and from that standpoint, that is what I feel like I encountered in the porn industry is a system of exploitation that favored the predominantly men who were profiting from that as agents or as producers, or as directors, and then held up and celebrated as icons within the industry through the industry's largest awards ceremonies. 0 (1h 41m 45s): So I I'm just like, where is the accountability where, who is advocating for all these people whose lives have been completely taken advantage of and destroyed? Like, and, and so, 1 (1h 42m 6s): Yeah, to me, no, I, I totally hear you. I totally hear you. And I think, again, decentralization is the answer to that. I think it's like anything else, right? You get this, this buildup and it becomes a monster and was with the porn industry specifically, like a lot of industries, there's very few players at the top that kind of control everything. So there's not a lot that an individual can do to shake up the status quo or to create a shift from the inside is just, it's very unlikely to happen. And you can look at this with banks, you can look at this with social media companies, right? These things got too big to, to tackle. 1 (1h 42m 49s): And the only way to really fix that in my mind is decentralizing it. And that goes to third-party platforms, self producing, not having someone else in control of your body or what your decisions are going to be made, because I can, I can tell you, a lot of girls are going to disagree, but there was so many times where I felt a lot of pressure. And I, I always said no. And then I got a terrible reputation within, in the industry of being a diva and difficult to work with. And that was simply because I said no more than more people than I know, because I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not comfortable with that. That is outside of my boundaries. And then you almost get shamed for having boundaries within the industry, because that's how those girls cope. 1 (1h 43m 33s): They cope by saying I'm extreme. I don't have boundaries. I'm easy to work with. Right. Like I'm easy to get along with. And that's just the narrative that they have to tell themselves to be okay with what they're doing. Right. So me doing the opposite is a threat to their existence or their worldview because I'm like, no, I fucking have boundaries. I'm not crossing that. So, I mean, I definitely hear you. And I think, I think that's really the only, the only solution in my mind. And again, paywalls, I think are super important. I agree with the Twitter thing, ironically, my account is marked as sensitive. So it's shadow banned and I don't post anything explicit because it goes against my principles, but my name was recognized and registered. 1 (1h 44m 19s): So I'm put in that list of like, I guess, potentially sensitive profiles. So I guess that's like one step that they're doing, but it's simply unchecking a box if you're a kid. So it's not really a solution on that end. It's just like they did something to say that they were making improvements, I guess, without actually having to do anything. So I think that'll be really interesting, but I've been curious with Twitter because I know you can't have sexual sexually explicit content and then be in the app store, but they're in the app store and there is a lot of explicit content. So you guys kicked out off only fans out of the app store because of that. But Twitter is the same. 0 (1h 44m 60s): Right. 1 (1h 45m 2s): It doesn't make sense to me. 0 (1h 45m 3s): Yeah. What's the deal with that? There's yeah. Like, like we said earlier, I think there's, there's a lot to be considered in the realm of how big tech and big porn are currently allowed to host and distribute pornographic content. There seems to be a lot of room for improving internet, you know, safety, if you will, through putting up age verification walls for people accessing it. So they can't just be unwittingly exposed to these things. I felt like a lot of, kind of the, your, your question previously, I felt you kind of trying to address this issue of the, the stigma of pornography. 0 (1h 46m 3s): So I think on that side of things, you know, that it's, it's, it's difficult. That subject is very difficult because as somebody who is running an anti-trafficking organization, the focus of our organization always has been and always will be on eradicating sexual exploitation, specifically commercial, sexual exploitation. We've never done anything. Other than that, as part of that work, we have a critique about the larger sex industry. And so the point that I hear you raising is within that critique, it's contributing towards a social landscape in which there's a stigma associated with people and the, in the point industry. 0 (1h 46m 60s): And I guess from my part, you know, I would just say that my critique is very much at a systems level analysis and our critique as an organization is a systems level analysis. So when it comes to the individuals, I've met individuals that I really enjoy and get along with, you know, that are either in the sex industry currently, or work in the section of street in porn, or are now we're important. And, and in my like, view one-to-one, there is no, like, I don't have any stigma towards them. Like, it's, I think as, as a Christian, I above all people should be the most loving and compassionate, you know, like I have been forgiven much. 0 (1h 47m 50s): I should love much like there's no. So like, so, but I understand the concern at a society level of saying, well, even, even, so when you present a systems level criticism of something that there's going to be, then a stigma that comes along with that. And I don't know how to address that. You know, it's the same thing with Christianity. It's just something I've come to accept is, you know, at first it was bizarre to me because I just thought, well, I I'm somebody who has a faith. Like, I believe that God made the world and chose me to be a part of it. I didn't think it was on that committee, you know? 0 (1h 48m 32s): And then all of a sudden I'm like, I hear like all this stuff. And I'm like, ah, I'm like, I don't believe that. And I don't believe that. And like, but I just come to accept, like, there's a stigma that comes with that. And so, yeah, I think in the same way that there's a, there's a stigma, you know, over the sex industry. And I don't know if there's a way to eradicate that. 1 (1h 49m 1s): Right. And maybe, and maybe there isn't right. And maybe that goes back to the whole cowboy lifestyle. And it's just part that part of what you have to endure. If that's the decision that you're going to make. I don't know. I don't know, human nature's tricky thing. 0 (1h 49m 14s): I think it fundamentally comes from the issue that at the end of the day, there are just going to be people who eat all exploitation aside, who disagree with the approach to sexuality, that views it as something to be videoed and published for mass consumption. There's always going to be disagreement about that. And by virtue of that, there will always, so I think just on a, just on a basic ethical level. So I think that's part of where that comes from and where, you know, the first time I talked to you where we talk, Hey, there's, there's things that probably agree to disagree on, you know, and for me, I just know, you know, in my approach to human sexuality, that it's not, it's not something that I would want, you know, for myself, but that's not to say that I don't respect the choices of, of people who have made that choice for themselves, because that is their choice to make. 0 (1h 50m 10s): And so, yeah, 1 (1h 50m 14s): Right. It comes down to, again, like what's not for you and then scale it out, right? Like how, how big of an issue do you want to make this one thing? And, and again, trafficking is very different than consent. And then it's, how do we, how do we clearly define what's what so that we can tackle the problem and not the non-problem totally my mind, you know, 0 (1h 50m 35s): Totally, that's a great way to steer this because at the end of the day, you know, as, as we've just discussed, there's, there's going to be areas where we just agree to disagree on a very, very basic level, but that's not to say that there are a lot of issues for us to address that we can address that are important to address and really significantly move the needle on. And that's where, you know, like I said, before that we, as excess Cry put all of our attention and energy is on those specific, tangible things that we can do to make a difference in a significant way. So I think when it comes to the public health crisis, w what I would describe as the public health crisis, as a result of widespread childhood exposure to pornography, I think there's, you know, a handful of things there to be considered. 0 (1h 51m 29s): We talked about the age verification walls in place, but, but also just the need for better sex sexual education, because the reality is, is that the, the publication of this content has created a world in which well, okay. So what we know now about neurology, about neural coupling about, about mirror neurons, about the way that we experience images and such a visceral real and personal way by, by creating and publishing pornographic content that now is, is distributed around the world because the world's been hardwired with the internet. 0 (1h 52m 11s): We live in an environment that is essentially a global orgy in which everyone is invited to it and including children and the impact that has an impact on our psyche as a society. And I believe has resulted in the corporate sexual traumatization of our planet. And so when we talk about the socializing aspects of that, if I'm living in that environment as my kind of the wallpaper of my life, then what impact does it have on the ideas, values, worldview identity that I shaped as an individual, as I'm taking in those images, in the stories, how do I internalize that in the construction of my identity worldview values? 0 (1h 52m 56s): What we are seeing is a generation who is developing some very distorted ideas about themselves and about sexuality and about women as a result of that. And so I don't think it's healthy for us as a society to, to consume pornography as the primary form of our sexual education. And I think that a huge part of what we need to do to address that is to start having more age appropriate aside from the age verification thing and trying to minimize the amount of childhood exposure to pornography is having more age appropriate conversations with kids growing up in this world about not like if, but when you're exposed to this, develop some critical thinking, develop the ability to deconstruct some of these images. 0 (1h 54m 2s): Obviously, you know, you're somebody who's in the porn industry, but even you have, you know, clearly I shouldn't say even you, but, but you as, as, as a, as a caring human have misgivings about certain genres of pornography that I'm sure you know, that you don't want to see and like, and so how do we, how do we work with children and, and do a better job of, of educating our kids in age appropriate ways about things that they're going to see so that they're able to have a framework to even interpret what they're seeing and deconstruct what they're seeing and understand like this, this is very unhealthy. 0 (1h 54m 44s): This is, this is not something that you want to integrate as part of your sexuality. So I think that's a huge factor in, in this, as we consider just kind of the public health side of this is the recognition that we are in a world in which these images are out there. We need to do a better job of protecting children from being exposed to it. But we also need to do a better job of having conversations with kids about this. We do have a very puritanical past in which even a conversation about sexist is taboo, right? And I can tell you as a religious person that is not helpful, like we absolutely need to resurrect a value for SACS that takes the shame away and puts it in a context in which it has meaning purpose value. 0 (1h 55m 32s): And we can have a healthy conversation about, you know, this is something that you want to, that you don't, you don't want to be taken for a ride and this area of your life, just because saw this doesn't mean that, that your girlfriend is going to want that, you know, and, and from a lot of research that I've done, that is part of what happens that you, these young boys, you know, grow up, watching girls get choked and you know, much of other things to think this is what girls want. And they jumped to that and bypass all these normal social boundaries to get them to do something, which the girl, depending on her makeup, you know, will, may end up going along with, but experiencing as violating and be like, what the hell did happen to me? 0 (1h 56m 18s): You know, it was like, I think that's a huge, yeah. A huge factor is, is just having more age appropriate conversations with kids is in our current modern day civilized society. 1 (1h 56m 34s): No, I totally agree. And again, I look at porn is entertainment. I, 100% think it's a terrible idea as an educational tool. It is, it does not serve that purpose whatsoever for children or adults, strictly entertainment, right? You're not going to drive down the road like Jason Bourne, terrible idea, like this is for entertainment only and responsible entertainment. And I think a lot of the problem does stem from that, that relationship that we have with shame and sex and that's for anyone of any Walker, you don't have to be religious to have that. I don't know, like that aversion to that conversation. 1 (1h 57m 14s): It's going to be awkward no matter what, but the consequences are pretty grave. If you decide to ditch that, right, and let your kid figure it out on their own or live in this world where you think that they're just never going to stumble upon it or their friends never going to share something that is going to 100% happen. So I think it's so important to be ahead of that. You want to be ahead of their eight year old friend ten-year-old friend, whatever that you know has access on their cell phone. You even if you don't give your kid a phone, right. Someone else's parent gave them a phone. So they're always going to have access to the internet one way or another. So again, age appropriate conversations, not pretending it doesn't exist, not pretending that they're going to be pure forever and never see the evils of the world or adult material or whatever. 1 (1h 57m 58s): You know what I mean? Just being realistic about it. And it's like, I guess, how do you, how do you educate the parents to be comfortable with that? Because a lot of them default to the, the education system, they want the school to do it. I don't want the school to do it. I have some friends that live in California and the things that they're teaching kids in public school, I think is like, whoa, that's too fast. You know what I mean? So it's pumped the brakes there and you have other schools that just strictly teach abstinence. And it's like, well, you need a little bit of gas. So you have to find somewhere in the middle that's age appropriate and getting the parents to, I guess, psych themselves up to be able to have that confident conversation with their kid. 1 (1h 58m 42s): Because a lot of, I actually follow a lot of conservative people. I have a lot of friends that are ultra conservative and the way that they look at it is if you introduce the idea of talking about sex with a minor, like your child, they think that that's off the table, not okay. Totally inappropriate, but you kind of are living in a vacuum if you think that just because they're under 18, that they're not going to lose their virginity. Most people do before 18 to a boyfriend, or they're not going to like masturbate or be exposed to those situations. You have to just understand, I guess, the flaws, if you will, of the world and that those truths exist. 1 (1h 59m 23s): And then how do you tackle it without saying, well, that you should go to who was it? It was, I think one of the turning point USA people on their super, super, super pristine, right. So someone had on, on Twitter suggested age appropriate porn. And that sounds crazy when you say it out loud, but have you dumb it down? Like, let's say there's no penetration and it's more of an educational thing. Like I've seen when we were in high school, they showed genitalia. Right? Cause they were teaching you about STDs and that kind of stuff. So it's not that you don't see it, you 100% see it before that, but doing it in a way that you are teaching consent and you're teaching boundaries, right. 1 (2h 0m 8s): You're teaching how to say no you're teaching. I don't know, like safety in those ways. I'm like, that's not that crazy of an idea if it's done in the right way. So not like porn, but more of just something that gets them excited to watch it. Like I'm not going to sit there and listen to my teacher, put a condom on a banana. They're going to check out. So how do you create something that I guess they want to engage in? That's going to protect them at the same time? I don't know. 0 (2h 0m 34s): I think, I think it has to, sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead. I, yeah, I think it fundamentally has to do with the collective socialization of humanity and the way in which parents are specifically engaged in their children's lives around such an important issue. I mean, our sexuality is not something we get out of. Like every single one of us was born with a sexuality, with a sex drive. And, and so as much as it is something that is still very taboo in our world in a lot of ways, it's it's area, it's an area where we need to grow, where we need to mature, where we need to evolve, where we as parents need to recognize that we play a role in helping to steward and shape and the, the healthy development of our child's life, including that very important aspect of their sexuality. 0 (2h 1m 32s): So I think it starts for me with bodily autonomy and understanding the value of my body. My body's beautiful. My body naked is beautiful. My body make it is not something to be ashamed of like, but there are parts of my body that are not there to be exposed to everybody. And there are parts of my body that that can be taken advantage of. And so you start to just at a very basic level, kind of build that up because in our society, you know, it's very, it's very interesting that our relationship with sex, because on one hand, our society elevate SACS as the end all be all of the human experience. 0 (2h 2m 17s): You know, the more the ha the more you have the merrier, all this, but then at the same time, completely <inaudible> Sachs from having any meaning at all whatsoever. And it's, it's very strange. And I think that we have to be more responsible with our depictions of sexuality in our culture, because in my view, there are three kind of categories of sexuality. It's not just all sex is good sex, and it's not all sex is bad sex, you know, it's, it's neither it's. I think that the categories that I put sex into our relational sexuality, an object sexuality, and a malevolent sexuality, and each one of those has different characteristics, but at the end of the day, ultimately I think for me and what I would hope other parents would engage with their children around is elevating the idea of sex around this idea of relationality, where there is consent involved. 0 (2h 3m 18s): And more than that, that there's mutuality involved. There's a genuine understanding that, of like, you know, I desire this, but what do you desire? And, and that exchange, you know, that really involves two people that is currently not there in hookup culture, not there in a lot of what we see depicted in just mainstream television. And, and so I think this is, you know, just part of how we as a society need to grow and, and to do a better job of really instilling in our children, a shame-free understanding of sexuality that gives them a sense of bodily autonomy, and a high value and meaning for Sachs and the ability to have critical thinking about it as they grow up and as they eventually make their own decisions in life. 0 (2h 4m 17s): So, 1 (2h 4m 18s): No, I think that's super helpful for sure, is, is categorizing it and not saying blanketly, that this is all bad, or this is all good because it goes for the same argument. It's almost like two things. Some people think two things can't be true at the same time. So it's sex is only for love. I know a lot of people subscribed to that or sex means absolutely nothing. And there's a lot of people that subscribed to that. And then there's a bunch of people in the middle and it's like, it can, it can be what you make it. And I think that's so important because if you fall too far into one or camper or another, that's really dangerous territory, because one way is a really simple way to get stuck with in a Loveless partnership, because you think that you gave away something that you'll never get back and now you're trapped. 1 (2h 5m 7s): And the other way is to never form a human connection of any substance. So you kind of have to be in the middle and be able to differentiate between those experiences. 0 (2h 5m 17s): Absolutely. And that's, that's where, you know, I, that's where I say that there's a, there's a difference. There's a, there's a difference in my understanding of something versus what I am trying to push for in the realm of law. Right. And, and we, we talked about this almost from the very beginning is like, okay, I have a conviction about human sexuality that places it in a very meaningful framework in which I believe it's the only way that I can wholly give myself to another person it's, it's, it's, it's mysterious and vulnerable and powerful and, and knit inextricably knit to desire and intimacy and, and all of these things that constitute my understanding of sexuality, that for me, would prevent me from, or I guess, yeah, it would, it would inhibit me from wanting to take that and put that out there for mass consumption. 0 (2h 6m 26s): So, but there's a difference between that and saying, well, I have all these beliefs, therefore you have to believe the same thing. I very much respect the view that like, Hey, like somebody else to say, this is what sex means to me. And maybe it has multiple meanings, you know, and this context, it means this and this con I respect that. I, I completely wholeheartedly respect that. And, but, but, but even within this, again, there's those core underlying factors where we can find, or we can all find agreement. One of them being rape is not okay. 0 (2h 7m 6s): Korshan is not okay. And you know, the idea of consent, but that's manipulated consent. That's not okay. And, and so, yeah, how do we grow and become more responsible, more ethical in some of those basic underlying aspects of our sexuality, just in a one-to-one context, but in a more systematized way within the porn industry, recognizing that a lot of guys come into it. I mean, I talked to performers who were, they? They, they had contracts this and that, and it would end up getting set on a call to some dude that had a tripod with a camera. 0 (2h 7m 46s): And now he's a pornographer, but it was really some guy living in his mom's basement that, you know, put out an ad. And because he wanted to, I'm not even gonna say what this guy wanted to do, but to do some derogatory thing to somebody, you know? And, and so it attracts, unfortunately it attracts those people. So just recognizing some of the predatory elements of it and, and finding some agreement about some really underlying important things like mutuality and consent and bodily autonomy that can carry across the board. So, 1 (2h 8m 21s): No, I think I'm so glad we did this again. I hope it doesn't. I hope people don't take it the wrong way, but I I'm really glad that this conversation is going to exist. So I want to say thank you. I think it was really cool of you to just be like, yeah, I'm, let's do a call and like, make sure that we're on the same page and we're gonna have a great conversation, but you were so responsive and open. And to me, that, that says where your heart's at and that, you know, this isn't this malicious attack and that you don't have this ulterior motive and agenda that is being depicted in a lot of the mainstream articles written about you. So do you want to say thank you so much, and I think that you're a great guy, and if you want to tell the listeners where they can follow you and how they can support you and, you know, help spread this mission of age verification, that'd be great. 0 (2h 9m 14s): Sure, absolutely. No, I feel the same way. Thank you so much for inviting me on and just enabling this conversation to be had. And I feel the same way about you. I really respect you and I really admire you for just yeah. Creating this platform and, and being willing to, to kind of like allow us to see across sites and have a very human conversation. So my heart and this, like I said before is one of just, you know, feeling a lot of love and compassion and trying to navigate the best way forward to eradicate commercial sexual exploitation from our world. I have a lot of areas that I know that I need to grow and that we need to grow as an organization. 0 (2h 9m 58s): So we're constantly trying to look through the, you know, the intense criticism to see, is there any truth in this? Like how is there anywhere where we need to grow? And we have, like, we have grown in a lot and, and I hope to continue to grow and, and everything, you know, that we're doing. So if anyone wants to connect with us, Exodus Cry is our organization. We're releasing a film coming up here called raised on porn, which tackle some of what we're dealing with. You can follow us on Instagram at our website, Exodus Cry. And yeah, I I'd love to, you know, have more conversations like this. 0 (2h 10m 40s): And so just thank you. And yeah. 1 (2h 10m 45s): Awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah. Awesome. Well, that's it for this week's episode of Chatting with Candice, I just want to do a little call to action. If you enjoyed this episode or any other episode, sharing it with a buddy is super helpful for me. It's the quickest way for my podcast to grow is just by you liking the episodes and sharing it with a friend. You can also leave a five-star review and a comment that is also very helpful when it comes to the algorithms. So if you haven't left one in a while, or if you've never left one, please take a minute out of your day to do that. That would be super helpful. Then you can also find me on locals and it's locals.com/ Candice. 1 (2h 11m 28s): Or you can go to Chatting with Candice dot com and click that little link that says, buy me coffee. Both things helped me out. A ton. Small podcasts are not easy to grow. So I am relying on you, the listeners to help me get to get big and bad and a household name. So thank you for tuning in and I'll see you next week.