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Jan. 25, 2023

#66 Matt Zemon - Psychedelics for Everyone

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 Chatting with Candice
 Matt Zemon
 Episode Run Time: 1:30:55

Matt Zemon is a psychedelic medicine advocate and the author of the #1 Amazon bestselling book, Psychedelics for Everyone. He is the CEO and Co-Founder of HAPPŸŸ, a mental wellness company that specializes in ketamine assisted therapy. 


0:00:20 Introducing Matt Zemon

0:01:56 The prohibition on psychedelics 

0:07:23 Decriminalization and legalization of psychedelics

0:09:34 Candice’s psilocybin experience

0:18:56 How to take psychedelics legally

0:27:25 Psychedelic narcissism and ego death

0:36:57 The different types of psychedelics 

0:40:41 Matt’s ayahuasca experience

0:45:13 Healing from trauma with plant medicine 

0:55:55 Tips for a fuller psychedelic experience

1:03:31 Scarcity VS abundance mindset

1:08:58 Parenting, intimacy, accountability 

1:15:06 Psychedelics for couples

1:18:12 Who shouldn't take psychedelics? 

1:23:43 Answering Super Chats


Why are psychedelics banned?

For decades, we have been taught to just say no to all drugs because they’re harmful. But now that we have greater access to research, it’s easy to debunk the prevalent misconception that all drugs are bad.  The prohibition on drugs has little to do with science, as evidenced by the fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal, even though they pose great harm to self and others. 


Different types of psychedelics

There are different kinds of psychedelics that can serve different purposes. Heart openers like MDMA and sassafras can prompt you to feel more love. Clinically, MDMA has been shown to effectively treat people with PTSD. Mushrooms like psilocybin are often chosen by first timers since it’s a gentler medicine. It can make you feel connected to people, the world, or a higher being. Ayahuasca has a similar effect, but there is typically a purging aspect that occurs.


How to take psychedelics legally

No matter what psychedelic you choose, it’s always wise to find a reputable retreat, prescriber, or guide. Before choosing, ask about the preparation, ritual, and integration. If you feel uncomfortable with the way it’s administered, then by all means choose a different provider. Having a ceremony in place will increase the likelihood of a good experience. Breathwork and music can help you relax, making it easier for you to immerse yourself into the experience. Psychedelics can radically disrupt our ways of thinking and can also provide relief for anxiety and depression. It can help us heal from our traumas, but it’s not a cure-all. 



Links and Resources:

Matt’s Website

Psychedelics for Everyone





Psychedelic medicine advocate Matt Zemon talks about the research on psychedelics: the decriminalization movement, his personal experiences with plant medicine, and how to take psychedelics legally.

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0 (0s): It was like one of those things when someone would bring something up, my ears would get red and I'd have like this little pit in my stomach. I'd be, oh, shut the fuck up. Like, yeah, I can't talk about this. Yeah. And one of these psychedelic experiences, I found myself right back in that last situation I was in and I was like, I don't want to be here. This is not what I asked for. This is not my intention. 1 (20s): Thank you for everyone who is joining today. We have Matt Zemon joining the podcast and you recently had a book come out and the title is Psychedelics for Everyone, if I'm correct. It 0 (31s): Is 1 (31s): Indeed, yes. Yeah. How's the book 0 (32s): Going? Oh, it's been amazing. It's been so much fun to get this out and to have and to see the response and, and just to get this information out there. It's been, it's been really a fun process. 1 (41s): It's really cool. So I, I'm very new to the psychedelic space. I haven't explored a ton myself cuz I kinda had back to back babies. But I'm very curious and we've been watching all the docu-series and obviously like, you know, my husband Eric is very deep in into that space. What got you initially started with Psychedelics and like that curiosity? 0 (1m 3s): Yeah, I wish I had a great story. That I had this, I was ready to go and I, I knew I needed to come to Psychedelics and that's not true at all. I had some friends who had suggested that I participate with them. They had hired a guide and had set up a whole ceremony and said, Hey, we're doing this. Do you want to come? I was like, I don't know, it's not really my thing. I'm not a drug person. I don't drink that much. It's, and they, they really nudged me and said, you know, you love to travel and this is like taking a journey in your mind and you love to learn and there's no better way to learn about yourself and this probably be good for you. And maybe they knew me better than I knew myself at that point. So I just did it and ended the experience. Just couldn't believe how beautiful and profound of an experience. 0 (1m 46s): And I was like, I need to know more about what this is and yeah, how this works and completely changed my life since that moment. 1 (1m 53s): That's a really big leap of faith. Like really big leap of faith. I also, I didn't really drink a ton. I had never done drugs growing up. My dad was a cop so we, 0 (2m 4s): He frowned upon that. 1 (2m 5s): It wasn't even frowned. It was like, like this is gonna sound probably like out of bounds and it probably is, but it, I guess it worked. So I watched at a very young age, he had me watch one of like those true crime kind of things and all I remember like seared into my mind was like, you know when they do like the flashback and it's all dramatic with the music. And they were like, and when they recovered her body three hours later it was still at 115 degrees. She had cooked from the inside out and I was like, I am never doing drugs at all. And he made me think that like any drug would would kill you. Like everything was deadly. So I had a ton of fear around it. So the first time that I even smoked weed I thought I was gonna overdose cuz that's how ignorant I was to, to anything. 1 (2m 49s): I was like, everything is is bad, deadly dangerous and it's going to make you be like this very lazy person and not be like a functioning member of society. Like the very like straight line kind of narrative that I think a lot of us were raised on. So when like this stuff, when Psychedelics started becoming more popularized, it took a lot of I guess like unraveling of my own ideas that I had about it because I didn't want, I wanted to go in with a, like a beginner's mindset. I didn't wanna like have all these cause I had never done it. So I'm like everything, I'm basing my ideas on this. This plant is not like firsthand knowledge and it's not from anyone that's like actually successfully used it for like Healing purposes is just from one narrative and that was like from the law. 1 (3m 35s): So the more I learned about it, the more I'm like, this seems like there's a lot of possibility. And then Johns Hopkins started doing their studies with maps and I'm like, well if they're doing it, there is something. Yeah. To take that leap of faith is is pretty massive. Cause I would've been scared out of my boots. I remember my first one we did with Roger and I did it by myself in the Uber ride there. I was like just trembling. I was like, I have no idea what I'm in for. And I love Roger and I trust him with everything. So I can't imagine not knowing the facilitator what that would be like. And you, did you do psilocybin for your 0 (4m 11s): First one? I did, I did about five, six grams of psilocybin for that first term. 1 (4m 15s): Holy cow. I did three and I was like whoa. 0 (4m 18s): It was a big one. It took me, took me deep in yeah. Had a, had a ego death and had connection with my mom who died when I was younger and Wow. Yeah, it was incredible. It's, it is interesting though, all of us, anyone born after 1970, all we've known is prohibition. Yes. So you talk about this is the law's perspective and sure it is, it was definitely your father's perspective, but it's also everywhere we look in society a as we grew up, it was just say no drugs are bad. There's no medicinal use, there's, they're gonna fry your brains, you're gonna get addicted, you're gonna get hurt. And, and everywhere and, and I'm sure in lots of books you've read magazines, television that that message that your father is giving you is reinforced. Right? So those of us working in the psychedelic medicine space, this is our biggest, one of our biggest challenges is overcoming 50 years of programming. 0 (5m 7s): And people here Psychedelics, it's like, ooh, that that's dangerous. Lsd, part of the reason there's not as much research now on LSD is there is on some of these other medicines is there is just so much baggage that came along during those years and it just wasn't worth the, wasn't worth the fight. 1 (5m 22s): So interesting. Cuz the more transparency I guess that we have now because of the internet, the more you realize how much of an agenda there was when it comes to Psychedelics. So I remember for, I think it might might have been one of the dare commercials for weed and it was, it had the frying pan with your And the eggs. Yeah. And the eggs were your brain. But that was funded by like the alcohol companies. So it's really interesting when you ask yourself, and again, if you really take your bias out of the picture, you're like, why are these things illegal when alcohol is legal? Like, I can go buy a bottle of jack and like do way more dam damage to myself than I can do with cannabis. Like that's just a fact. 1 (6m 2s): Like cannabis isn't gonna kill me. I don't think anyone has ever died from weed. Like that's like a good fact check, but I don't, I don't believe so. I guess when it comes to the Decriminalization and potentially the legalization, like what, what are your thoughts on that? Because I have my own, but I wanna hear 0 (6m 19s): Yours first. So I wanna back up for a moment, just talk and there's lots of really great research out there about where they take psychotropic drugs and they talk about what is the harm of this particular drug to yourself or to others and what, what is more or less, so they've done ratings of different drugs and if you look at the charts with these on the far left hand side, you see things like alcohol, tobacco, heroin, but it stick with just alcohol and tobacco. Perfectly legal, not a lot of discussion about Yeah, it's, it's perfectly legal, right on the far right hand side of those charts. A a fraction of the harm would be things like lsd, psilocybin, even ecstasy is far in that right hand. MDMA is far in that right hand side. And so what is scheduled as illegal has nothing to do with science. 0 (7m 3s): And it's just, and you're right, the internet has been really helpful in getting people to understand that come to their own conclusions and realize, oh we were fed a, a bunch of nonsense for all these years and now that's, that's overturning I did completely in this thought lost track of the question you asked though, that kicked this 1 (7m 18s): Off. No, that, that was very useful. Okay. And helpful. It was like, what is your opinion when it comes to Decriminalization and legalization of those, because obviously there's, there's a big spectrum when it comes to Psychedelics and I would love to get into that with you as well. Like I know cannabis technically isn't a psychedelic, but you can have psychedelic experiences on it if you do it in like the right setting. So even including that all the way up to let's say dmt, which was probably like the big daddy of the world. 0 (7m 48s): It's five 1 (7m 48s): Dmt. Yeah. Or like ayahuasca, right. So on that gradient, like does that change or is it, do you see it kind of like as an umbrella? Like if one is decriminalized, like they kind of all should be like what's your, what are your thoughts on that? So 0 (8m 1s): It's really interesting. So people find themselves curious about psychedelic medicine for a number of reasons. Some approach it from a medical perspective. I have a diagnosis of depression or anxiety or O C D or an eating disorder or a substance use challenge and, and it's very medical. I want to be healed from this. Okay, great, let's put that in a bucket. Then other people approach and say, I, I'm cur I wanna connect to something bigger. I want a spiritual experience. I wanna understand more about what happens after, after I die I wanna understand more about how we're connected. Okay, cool. So let's call that the religious camp. And then there's others who approach it more recreationally. I want an experience and I guess there's a fourth camp too, which is the biohacking. I wanna optimize myself, I wanna be the best me I can be. 0 (8m 42s): And I'm not really thinking of myself as having anxiety or thinking of myself as having wanting religion. I just want to be better. I think all four ways are beautiful ways to approach the medicine. They're just different and they're different philosophically and they're different legally. So we're, and and and kind of societally, like as a society, if you come, oh you are, you have something that needs fixing. Okay, I can, I might be able to allow you to do that. I wanna do this as a religion. Hmm. That's not like the religions that we grew up in. I'm not sure how I feel about you doing that. I want the biohack that's or recreationally no uhuh, I'm, I'm, I'm in charge of your body. I'm gonna tell you no that that's not okay. And that's, it's very strange to look at like who gets to decide what we get to do for regardless of how you approach it. 0 (9m 27s): And then the last thing I'll say, and this is regardless of where you start in my experience, it becomes completely overlapped and intertwined very quickly into your first psychedelic experience where it's like, oh I thought I was going to do it for this reason and now all of a sudden I'm thinking about this or this from these other camps. 1 (9m 44s): So I've only had one experience with psilocybin. Yeah. And it wasn't like I didn't get the visuals and you know, all of those really beautiful things that people talk about. I do think it was Healing for me, it just wasn't like obviously profound. It was like one of those things that kind of had like a little drip effect where it compounded like throughout time. 0 (10m 5s): Why do you think it was Healing for you? 1 (10m 7s): So I like, I'm a very kinesthetic person. Like I just connect with movement a lot during the beginning phase. Like when, so we did like an hour plus of ceremony, which I wanna get into as well cause I think that's so important. But we did like maybe closer to two hours of ceremony we did the tea and then my first like at first kind of looked like I was in the stars. Like that was like as visual as it as it got. Like I was just kind of in space. Like there was no body yourself. It was just like observing space, which was really beautiful, very cool and amazing, very. And my whole purpose of going in was to like experience more joy. Like that was what I wanted. I just, that was your your intentions? 1 (10m 48s): Yeah. Okay. Like it wasn't like a ton of trauma that I was working through. I had done a lot with other platforms to do that and I felt like I did a pretty substantial job. It was just to have my, the floor of my joy raised up a little bit. 0 (11m 2s): Totally understand 1 (11m 3s): That. Right. And I was just like, I di I wasn't depressed or anything like that. It just, I felt like I could be happier. So that was my intention going in. And then I remembered like that experience of just seeing space was just so beautiful. And normally I'm terrified of space. Like I, I don't wanna be up like Eric's wants to buy his ticket yesterday to go up there and I'm the opposite. I want my feet on the ground but there was no fear. It was just like a very beautiful observation. And then my body just like kind of started trembling and I remember like seeing flashes of some animals come in, but I can't remember what cuz it, it's all a kind of a haze. But my body just started really, really, really trembling and I just like let it go. I wasn't trying to fight it. 1 (11m 43s): And I guess to any woman that's given birth, it's very similar to like epidural shakes and that's also a trauma response. So I know that something was being released and I just don't necessarily know exactly what that was or what maybe it was like several different things. But I just let my like trusted the process and trusted my body and let it do that. And then at the end of it it also wore off like super fast. Roger was like, there's no way you're done. It was only a few hours, like maybe two or three hours. And I'm like, I'm done. And he's like, there's no way like you did for, and I'm very sensitive to everything like caffeine, alcohol, like I just need a little bit, this is different though. Yeah. And I was like, it's already off. And he's like, there's no way. 1 (12m 23s): Like I'm telling you I'm good, it's all gone. And I would get up and like kind of start stretching and everything was like popping and cracking and he was like, oh that's really good. Those are all so releases. So it wasn't like I had this experience where people were working on me or spirit guides or anything like that. It was just more physical. But I guess that's more in aligned with like my current state, like my baseline, if that makes sense. So yeah, I would attribute like those cracks pops and shaking to like a, a trauma, like being released and healed. So that's why I would say that. And then I did end up feeling like my baseline was elevated after that. Like I just was generally a more easy to please, happier person For how long? 1 (13m 5s): Honestly, up until I recently gave birth and then now my hormones are all crazy. So that's just getting reestablished. But now, I mean we're about five months post and I feel like I'm starting to become myself again because like that first few months on top of like being sleep deprived. Yeah. It's like you are your worst version of yourself and then you're trying to show up for this little person that can be very hard and there's like nothing you can really do except for like try to rest and, and go with grace. You know what I mean? Right. It's very 0 (13m 34s): Hard. It's a lot. I mean that's, that's, you went through a lot of work. It's physically a lot of work mentally, a lot of work emotionally, a lot of work. And, and then, and then you go right into lack of sleep and Right. This new presence that you, you are fully responsible for. So it's, that's hard. It's understandable. It's, it sounds like a beautiful introduction to psilocybin that you had or imagine Mushrooms that the, you said three grams, two and a half, three grams, three, yeah. Yeah. So that's, it's, yeah, that's, that's a great, that's a good place to start. Why not? Why not start there? But everybody's different and the fact that it wore off is what it did. That's, that's totally fine too. It doesn't mean your next experience would be the same that short. No, not at all. but it could but it, but it might not, but it's a, but it sounds like your body needed to release some things and it did and it didn't need to show you visually anything in that particular moment. 0 (14m 24s): And three grams is also, it's in that zone where you might not have a lot of visuals. It sometimes takes a, a bigger dose. You like the ceremony component as well? You're talking about the the spirituality per 1 (14m 34s): Push of it. Yes. So I guess to tie in my question from earlier, so I personally, I don't know how I feel about recreational use for Psychedelics. Again, like I'm so new to the space, I don't know that my opinion really carries, carries a lot of weight. I just see, see a lot of people doing it incorrectly. So I guess that's where my ideas formulated is I just think there's not enough respect given to the process. So when it comes to ceremony, again, like I've only done one, I've seen a lot, you know, through docu-series and things like that. But I think when you're opening up yourself energetically like that, it's crucial to have someone there that holds like a positive light. 1 (15m 15s): Because I think when you're releasing anything, so releasing that trauma for example, something else has to fill that, that bucket. And if you don't have the right person there or the right environment, then you, you're just filling it with more bad or more density or more shadow. So I think that's why like a shaman is really important. Or if you're doing something more clinical and you have someone there, cuz even at maps they make it still very ceremonial. They do, they hand it to you with like a little platter. Like, like these little things do matter cause it makes you take it a little bit more seriously and not like you're just gonna go eat these things and then go to a club like you're here to do work on yourself or like go on like a, a mission if you will. 1 (15m 57s): So I think there's a lot of value in that. And then also, like I said, I went in with a ton of anxiety and I think that's probably a lot of people that are new to this space. So having someone kind of bring you in with like a prayer or a song or a chant and kind of explaining what you're about to experience, I think can also lead to a better experience. And one that's not so overwhelming because I've seen people have really bad trips too, and I don't know if that's like, there are no bad trips. You get what you're supposed to get. Or they were doing it recreationally and they went to a house party and of course that's gonna be overwhelming because now again, like you are an open vessel and now you are just absorbing recklessly everyone's energy. 1 (16m 39s): Energy. 0 (16m 39s): Yeah. And so you're, you have, I mean, multiple things you just covered here. So certainly energetically when you take a psychedelic, you are truly feeling and absorbing in a way that you don't normally do in your, in your day-to-day conscious life. So when you surround, so when they, when they talk about a probability of a good experience, it's set setting and source. So your mindset going in, it's a setting that are you around people that love you? Are you in a place that you're undisturbed? Are you in a place that's free from distraction? And when those things aren't happening, yeah it can, it can be very jarring because you're just, you're experiencing it. Everything can be louder, the colors can be different, it can be mixing smells and colors and sounds and all of it starts running together. And it can be a, it can be scary. 0 (17m 20s): Absolutely. You also talked about how when you give yourself away to the medicine, you're very vulnerable and cuz you, it's you've, you've planned, this is a planned psychotic break. You are allowed for this time to be open to whatever happens. And if you're not surrounded by, by people that love you and people who are holding a safe container, it can be, it can be, it can be physically dangerous for the fair person. So again, just as, as you think about, as your audience thinks about where do I want to, if I want to take a psychedelic medicine? Yeah. Picking that, that facilitator and that group that's gonna be with you. Super, super important. 0 (18m 0s): Yeah. And there and there have been certainly like any type of experience, there have been certainly instances where things have not gone the way that you are. I might have scripted it for somebody, but when you do find that right facilitator have the right space, have the intention, know what you're getting into, so you're okay, you're, this should be about six hours and it's going to take this and yeah, you really reduce the, the the challenging experience portion. Now that doesn't mean it might not be challenging emotionally or that you might be shown something that's, that you don't wanna see or that you are not looking forward to seeing. But, but when you can rem the other thing I guess the medicine does is it removes shame, blame and guilt during that period that you're on the medicine. 0 (18m 45s): So it really does allow you to look at some things that are again, hard to do when you're not with the help of that medicine. 1 (18m 53s): There's so many places I wanna go. One, I think it's important, and maybe there's not an answer to this, but how do you find a, an ethical facilitator or shaman? Because even some of the places that are down in South America are kind of getting busted right now for like exploitation where the shaman kind of crossed some boundaries and I, I don't know if some of them are like obviously tourist traps and you should kind of like look at the writing on the walls. But how do you differentiate between someone who's like a, a positive but at the same time like neutral safe space versus someone that may be coming in with their own ego or agenda and even greed with this cuz you know, there's a lot of money to be had in the space. 0 (19m 37s): It's so hard and it's, it's again, I, these are things I did not think about five years ago, but it's so frustrating that we can't have a reasonable discussion on drug policy in this country and therefore we can't have an open market where there are very public ratings and very public scores and very public discussions about either regard of either the person or the, or the drug itself. It's, it's super frustrating. So what you, so your options in America are, you can do something legal like ketamine and then you can pick a ketamine practice and we can, that has ratings and, and reputation. You can do something legal in other countries and you can fly down to central or South America. You can go to the Netherlands, Bahamas, Jamaica and do something that way. 0 (20m 18s): Or you can go underground it. I'd like to say it's radically different choosing a legal ketamine experience than it is choosing a, an underground psilocybin. But it's not, and I'll, and I'll tell you, I'll give just one example. Legal ketamine is controlled by a couple different groups. So you have the anesthesiologists who say, we are the only ones really trained and who work in in ketamine all the time and we're the ones who should control this. And then you have the psychiatry like, well we're the ones who are both mental health and prescription and we're doctors and we, we should control this. And you have the therapists who are like, well wait a minute, no, no, no, this is actually therapy and this is our area of expertise and and it's not that hard to, to prescribe this. And then you have the un unlicensed guides who are saying, well wait a minute, we've been practicing with psychedelic medicine for a long time. 0 (21m 2s): We have the most experienced guiding people in these, these are non-ordinary states of consciousness. We really should be the ones that control this. They're all have things that are right. In my opinion though, if you go to, to a traditional ketamine clinic run by an anesthesiologist where they hook you up to an IV and they come back an hour later and send you home, that research shows that that is not as successful as if you combine it with any type of therapy licensed or unlicensed. Mm. And but you don't know that if you don't know to ask. So, so what do you do? You have to ask, you have to ask those kinds of questions. Are you gonna give me any type of preparation and integration support? 0 (21m 43s): What is the experience itself gonna be like you were talking about ritual before, what are their philosophies on ritual And whether you, you believe in any God specifically doesn't matter. But having a ceremony wrapped around this leads to better outcomes is what the research says. And then for those choosing underground or choosing central or South America, again the same, just ask the questions, how many people are gonna be in my ceremony with me? There's a very known facility in Costa Rica that has 80 to a hundred people at a time doing ayahuasca. Wow. 1 (22m 13s): That seems kind of dangerous. How do you keep an eye on everyone? 0 (22m 16s): It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. There's another, there's a number of them that are 40 again seems like a lot, but I can see that. And then most of the ones that I participated in are, are 15 to 20, which seems to be a sweet spot. 1 (22m 28s): Yeah, that seems a lot more reasonable. 0 (22m 30s): A lot more reasonable. But asking those questions, don't be afraid to ask the questions. What is the experience of the guide? What do you have on staff in terms in case anything does go awry? What is your, what is the ceremonial components? What are the ceremonial components? What do you have for preparation? What do you have for integration? Ask all those questions and if you don't like the answers, go find someplace else. 1 (22m 50s): No, that's good advice. Definitely don't just pick someplace and hope for the best. Do a little bit of effort before you do something that's so vulnerable. 0 (22m 57s): Yeah, I was lucky. I mean I was lucky that my friends had done some research and invited me in, but in retrospect I should have been asking all of those questions and I didn't. I just went with the flow, which, which so much of us do at different points in our life. And yeah, 1 (23m 8s): Just kind of it served you, 0 (23m 10s): It served, it served me, it worked out. It was one of those life nudges that got me to the right place. But yeah, certainly could have had a different, different twist to it. 1 (23m 19s): So what's your opinion on those, those ketamine centers that you now, not centers, they're on your app. So like they just deliver it to you pretty much like you do 10 minute phone call and then you get ketamine to your door. So technically it's legal, but that's where I get a little bit apprehensive of like the vast, just like legalization of everything because I don't know that out of context that's gonna be more helpful than hurtful. 0 (23m 44s): So again, full disclosure, I have a, I have launching a telehealth company in Florida that will connect people to ketamine. So I am clearly biased on this, but let me, let me, I'll tell you how I think about this. Okay. I don't love the idea of people just hopping online, going to prescriber and five minutes later they've been prescribed ketamine. It's on the way to them. I think that is, I think it's a bit reckless. Okay. It's a very powerful medicine. It's a short, it's only about an hour versus psilocybin, I'm talking about six, six to eight. but it's super powerful. It can take you very deep. It's also one of the only medicines that has any addiction or addictive profile and animal tests. They're, the animal sometimes will pick ketamine over food. They won't do that. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's one of the few, they won't do that with psilocybin or lsd, but yes, with ketamine, so recreationally there are people who get addicted to ketamine. 0 (24m 31s): Nobody's jonesing for their next mushroom fix. But, but medicinally or in clinical use, you don't really have that issue with ketamine. So if you're listening to this like, oh I wanna try, then you're at a party and someone says, oh well here's ketamine. That's, that's not the right place to, to, to to, to go with the ketamine with I think the companies that are doing it better than others. So I think telehealth is, is super important because it brings down the cost. All of us in telehealth land are about $1,200 for six sessions. If you go to a ketamine clinic, you're 4,500 to $6,000 for six sessions. Wow. It's that big of a difference. But there has to be compromises. So what are the changes? So one thing is when you, in, when you do your intake, whoever you go with, they should do a full medical intake, they should do a depression stream, they should do an anxiety screen, you should have a, a video call that's, that's significant with a medical prescriber, whatever's licensed in your state where they go over the answers to your questions, they talk to you about depression, anxiety, they talk about what your intention is and then they decide whether you're a good fit for ketamine or not. 0 (25m 35s): The ones that I think do it best send you one dose to start maybe two to see how you react and they start you low and, and then see again cuz people react wildly different to ketamine, right? So start you low and then I think the ones that do it best have some type of guide program where they're gonna assign you somebody who's going to help prepare you. Let's talk about your intentions, let's make sure you write this down. What are you trying to get out of this? They don't need to give their opinion, they just need to help draw it out of you. They're gonna help make sure you're a crystal clear, you're gonna, what you're gonna do during the session, this is how long it's gonna be. And then they're gonna meet you on the other side of at least the first couple sessions what came up. Again, they don't have to, it's not therapy where they have to give you, well did you think about this? 0 (26m 16s): Or what about your father? And no, just what came up, how did it make you feel? Where did you feel it in your body? How did you react? Did you have a release? What does it make you think about? How does it, what did it feel like to have the weight of the world lifted off your shoulder? What did you think you were carrying when you had that experience and how are you gonna now take that learning into your life? So I, I guess in psychedelic as a whole, I'd like to think of them not as a cure, it's a catalyst, it's just a glimpse of insight that then you can move on and, but you have to do that work yourself. 1 (26m 48s): No, that makes a lot of sense. So again, it's just kind of having your eyes open when you're picking the provider and not just going with it. So hopefully, you know, it's a little bit more responsibly done. 0 (26m 58s): Yeah. And and you can, you can be picky. They're all about the same price. So it's really what are you looking for? And if all of the, if you're, if you're listening to something like this and you're reading the books and it's like, I really wanna have a as close to a, I wanna have a psychedelic experience but I'm not willing to do something illegal so I wanna do ketamine. Well thi what are the things in those psychedelic experiences that were attractive to you and find a provider that offers the, that type of rapper around the ketamine and they're out there. 1 (27m 24s): No, that's really good advice. Yeah. You mentioned earlier in the podcast having an ego death with your first experience. I would love to hear about that. And then also if you're willing to share of course, because it goes into, everyone has an opinion, so it's like how much of your journey do you share? Because going into it with expectation is not a good idea. And that's something that I was really trying not to do cuz Eric had shared his, you know, to like every detail. And I was like, that sounds amazing, I wanna do that. And then when mine wasn't nearly as visual or magical, I was like, ah, damn it disappointed. That's probably because I had that expectation going in. So it's like, do you share your experience or are you like just conscientious of when you share it or how you share it? 1 (28m 9s): And then when it comes to ego death, there's some people that I think that actually does like way more harm than good because they have, do you know who Jamie Wheel is? Of course he talks about the super ego and how he sees that a lot on the West coast. So these people have this quote unquote ego death and now all of a sudden it's actually a super ego and they're like, I am rom dass, right? And let me give you the answers to everything. And you're like, well, that, that's not what you were supposed to come out thinking, feeling or doing. So maybe you need to go back in there. So what's the difference between like a, a positive ego death and one that actually leads to super Ego? Okay, 0 (28m 44s): You've a bunch of questions in that paragraph. I know. Okay, let's, let's take, let's back it up and say first all my feelings on sharing in general. So I love, if someone's asking the questions, I'm happy to answer. And, and depending on what the conversation's about to share whatever experience makes sense to share, I do it to normalize the, i I wanna normalize conversations about mental health so that we talk about kids breaking their legs or getting hurt. Why can't we talk about people being depressed or anxious or having a, a, a, a substance use disorder? Why there shouldn't be any more shame in that discussion than in the broken leg. So I wanna normalize that and I wanna normalize a discussion on medicine and say, or psychedelic medicine specifically say, look, I'm, I'm a I'm an entrepreneur and I'm a father and I'm a taxpayer and I do a lot of drugs and that's okay. 0 (29m 31s): And so I, I wanna talk about it for so that other people are like, oh, well he, he's not what I pictured a a drug user to look like. And okay, maybe, maybe I, I am gonna consider this. I also share, I try to combine what I've learned and what I'm learning in real time with what I'm sharing. So like there are 309 academic institutions studying Psychedelics right now. A lot of people don't know that. Absolutely. And the research is so powerful. So I try to be that bridge. I'm not a PhD, I'm not a doctor, but I can, I think I can present things in a way that people can, can hear who are not scientists or not don't have a science background. So yeah. So I'm ha And so then when it comes to, so then it becomes about how I think I also try to caution people about what you said. 0 (30m 18s): You don't wanna have too much of an expectation going in. The medicine's gonna take you. All we're gonna do is help prepare you for whatever that experience is. Maybe you have visuals, maybe you have some somatic experience, maybe you have just old deep relaxation. Maybe it doesn't affect you all that's possible. So let's be prepared for anything and everything and then see where it goes. And no matter where it goes, you didn't do anything wrong. That was your experience. And, and it doesn't mean it's gonna be like that every time. That was your experience on that day. And that was beautiful just as it is. And then I think that, so now we're gonna go backwards to psychedelic narcissism, which is what you're talking about. 0 (30m 59s): Like, like I'm, I know everything and it's interesting. So I, so I work with these different integrators, coaches, people and they talk about, one thing we talk about is we try and it's, it's a fine line between not giving unsolicited advice and then sharing this information and and finding that balance. So I think that's something that those working in the space we need to, it's a constant, it's a constant something we should be aware of and we are aware of with psychedelic medicine, you feel so much love towards yourself. I know for me, when I first had that very first experience, one moment I'm like, oh my god, I feel so safe and so loved. 0 (31m 46s): And like a fraction of a second later I was like, oh my god, I don't normally feel loved and safe. What the hell's going on? And then I was like, and then another second later I was like, oh my god, I can't remember the last time I felt this loved and safe. That was a big eye opener for some people. They can, you can, you can take that and be like, and now I am therefore I know everything and I'm, I am, I have achieved a god-like status. And, and which then brings us full circle to when you're looking to participate and to work with somebody looking for those signs. Does this person feel like they, they are, they are a deity that they have all the answers that they know or are they, are they learning Healing and growing just like all of us? 0 (32m 38s): And if they are humble, in my opinion, humble, I'm here to learn, heal and grow with my experience. I'm gonna share this experience with you if you would like it. Yeah, I think that's a safer place to step into. So just being aware those people exist out there though I think is really good advice that you're bringing up. Indirectly. 1 (32m 56s): I feel like I had another, well there was another question in my long paragraph. 0 (33m 1s): Lemme see 1 (33m 2s): Here. 0 (33m 3s): Ego. Oh, ego death. 1 (33m 4s): Yeah, ego death 0 (33m 5s): Again, that same experience. So the, the first part of it was, so my mom died when she was 49, so I was 22 and, and I learned, I still haven't felt that was the saddest I've ever been. I think I've found my low end of my emotional register and I talk about my book about how like I wailed, I didn't even know what that word whale meant until yeah, until that day at the cemetery. Yeah, it was, it was, it was really, really, it was really hard. And then on this experience, she was there and I could feel her in a way that I hadn't in what would've been 25 years and, and I was like, oh wait a minute, she's here and I'm taking her energy and moving it forward. 0 (33m 52s): And that's kind of my, that's like talking the energy side, okay, this is the feminine energy that I'm gonna embody is part of me and I'm gonna move her forward and that's okay. And then I could actually feel my kids, I'm like, oh I get it and I'm moving this forward and now they're moving it forward and even though it's, we're three different entities or four different entities, it's all connected. And I could see that the ego death side was when I really thought I wasn't coming back. I was like, oh, oh, oh I have now crossed over and I didn't get to say goodbye. And that was really sad for, I was like, oh I can't believe I just left them and I'm not gonna come back. but it was also my first glimpse in with some other molecules. 0 (34m 34s): Later I got more of this. But my first glimpse of okay, this is what a heaven could be like I can conceive of a place where us in energetic form live or b maybe is better word. And there is space for everybody and it is beautiful and it is loving. And then not too long after that I was able to come back. So here I am. 1 (34m 56s): Well we're glad you're back. Thank you. It's good to be here. I'm sure your family is too. Yeah, that sounds like a very beautiful and like Healing experience, this goes back to having the importance of having a facilitator because I think sometimes when I've heard people describe an ego of death, cuz I, I have it myself, not yet, not yet. Is that they feel like once they've killed it, that that's like a minute fix. And there's this guy that I just like adore, he founded Biocybernaut, so Dr. Hart and he's like as, as long as you're living in a human body, there is always ego. Like there is no killing it. So he really detests that phrase. 1 (35m 37s): He doesn't like saying he doesn't. Yeah. Cause he's like there is no, there is no killing it. And for some people they, when they're in that psychedelic space, they think that because it happened once, like when they come to that now they have transcended their ego like that it is no longer like that. You know, maybe like that shadow that is always with us. So I think that's why if you have like a, an ethical person holding the space in the ritual and having like the integration piece, they would hopefully check you a little bit. 0 (36m 11s): You would hope a lot, a lot of that. Yeah. This and and they talk about post psychedelic experience. Don't make any big decisions for a couple weeks. And yeah. And you need there, there is an integration, a process to come back to land back on on in this 3D world in which we live and and recognizing that no you didn't, your ego did not die forever. You still have an inner narrator, you still have that, those inner pieces. There's still gonna be things that are gonna trigger you. They're still gonna, it's a practice. You've had a glimpse now of what it can, what it can feel like to just radiate love and radiate joy. But it's a practice. There is n there is not something that is you can do all the time or most people cannot do all the time. I'm sure there is some enlightened people who have, who have hit that, but that is not most of us. 0 (36m 56s): Yeah. 1 (36m 57s): So when it comes to The, different types of psychedelics, we just recently watched that How to Change of Mind docu series, it's 0 (37m 4s): Great series on Netflix, the four, four parts. Yeah, 1 (37m 6s): It's beautiful. It's amazing. So anyone who's curious, I highly recommend that series cuz you'll kind of like get the best introduction to a lot of different Psychedelics. 0 (37m 15s): I recommend that for a couples too. So there's 1 (37m 17s): Psychedelics for couples or 0 (37m 19s): The, well both. All the above. Yes. There, there's, yes, there's great couple practices with MDMA or MDMA, either one with, with couples and that there are couples who when the relationship is healthy, choose to start a practice where they're gonna have a a maybe once a quarter, twice a year experience together. But, but I recommend watching that show as a couple, especially if one is leaning more towards Psychedelics than the other because it is, it is a way to combat that programming the other that the partners had without the other cup partner having to be the one to do all the lecturing. It's cuz it's so informative. Okay, here's a 60 some year old journalist who's going to just show you what, what this is like and talk about the research in a way that's, it's non-threatening. 1 (38m 6s): And sometimes if you've been together with a, with someone for a very long time, it's like they could tell you something and you're like, like no, absolutely not. Especially if it's something as new and kind of like taboo as a psychedelic, but then you do need an outside perspective that's not gonna like trigger you and you're like, oh well that makes sense. You're trustworthy and then your partner's there like I just said the same, I just said that. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like if you were to be just getting started, are there ones that you think think are more gentle or do they serve different purposes? Like if, like you mentioned couples with MDMA or MDMA, like if I have OCD or anxiety, is there one that you recommend or if I'm trying to go through fix, like childhood trauma, is there one, I guess are there different levels and strengths or do they hit different parts of you? 1 (38m 57s): How does that all work? 0 (38m 58s): Yes, yes and yes, all the above. So I think if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh well I'm curious to start and I'm not sure where, I think I'd ask you back like, well what's, what's drawing you? What's speaking to you? What are you resonating with? And maybe there's something just in that energy exchange right there. That's something worth paying attention to. Certainly if you're saying, okay, I wanna open my heart, I'm looking for a heart opener. Cause I want to feel more love towards myself, I wanna feel more love towards my partner MDMA or MDMA or sassafras, same thing is is a beautiful place to start for that. It is a, you can't help but feel love. Quick note on that with people with post-traumatic stress disorder, treatment resistant PTSD where the existing talk therapies and, and pharmacological solutions don't work. 0 (39m 47s): Phase three, clinical trial after three sessions with MDMA, 67% no longer qualifies having PTSD. So super cool. Super wow. Really, really powerful medicine. Wow. Really powerful medicine. Mushrooms seem to be a place that a lot of people choose to start. It's very grounding. You talked about having your feet on the ground earlier. You feel very connected. You look at, at least in my experience, and you can look at nature and see it differently and closer than maybe you have previously. For me it was the first time that like this idea that we're all brothers and sisters like, oh wait a minute, we are all brothers and sisters and ta and feeling it differently than the intellectual exercise or then just the reciting the trait thing you heard growing up. 0 (40m 37s): So I think psilocybin is gentle in a place that a lot of people start, some people are drawn towards ayahuasca. They want the, they want for whatever reason to go to the jungle. They want that, that energy that comes with ayahuasca. And it is not as gentle that there's a pH a physical purging you typically throw up at least once during the, the ceremony. But that's not as bad as it sounds. 1 (40m 60s): Sounds terrible. 0 (41m 1s): I thought so. Too terrible. You know, it's funny, the first time I, I was doing ayahuasca, this, the, the shaman's wife said, so you're, you're really scared about the throwing up? Like I hate throwing up. Same. And I was like, I really hate throwing up. She said, it's gonna be the most beautiful part of the ceremony for you. Oh. And I said, I don't think so. 1 (41m 22s): That actually makes me more nervous that that's the 0 (41m 25s): Highlight. Well it's one of them in a very different way. So it's when you pur, or at least for me when I purged in Ayahuasca, it is, you are releasing something under your body and you immediately, you can look into the bucket as gross as that sounds, and you can see what you released and go, oh my God, I didn't know I was carrying that. It's, it sounds wild. So I'll say one, I mean I could just, one that I can remember is I purged that I had a, I looked down upon people who said they spoke in tongues and it's, I'm look in the bucket. I'm like, oh, I can see that clearly. I do. I I think that's, I thought that was nonsense. But meanwhile I had had like an hour discussion with an alien just a minute ago. 0 (42m 7s): It felt very real to me. Here I am looking in the bucket like, oh, okay, maybe I shouldn't judge people like that. Maybe that's a, that's another form of just yet one more way that I, I I judge people. So I was like, okay, that that was a good learning. But now there's some beautiful parts in ayahuasca. The the DMT component of ayahuasca is so visual and so beautiful and yeah, you can all sorts of lack. So if as as grounding as psilocybin, as ayahuasca can be galactic and can give you just a whole different perspective on, on the world and thinking in terms of millions of years versus lifetimes and just so yeah, much farther out perspective, if I had a child who was having or having a heroin addiction or if I had someone who I love struggling with an opioid challenge, IGA is the solution. 0 (43m 1s): It's be, it's doing incredible work. There's a Dr Gama up in Canada who is really work doing incredible things. 1 (43m 9s): His son's coming on the podcast in February. Yeah. 0 (43m 11s): Oh that's so cool. All right. So also on trauma and 1 (43m 16s): Yep. He helped write that myth of normal textbook that I gotta digest before he gets here. 0 (43m 22s): Yeah, he's, he's such, such good work. The wisdom of trauma is his last, the documentary he just had come out, which is beautiful. 1 (43m 30s): I haven't seen that 0 (43m 30s): One yet. Totally worth watching. And then he has, I think if you pay on his website for that, there's all these like, I dunno, 30 hours of additional content around trauma. Wow. Super fascinating. And, and then the work with Ibogaine is just, I mean there's, there's very few things that if you have someone who's trying to get off of an opioid that work like Ibogaine can disclaimer, it is, it is a serious medicine you need in that particular psychedelic. You want to have cardiac monitors, you wanna be in, in with medical help nearby. It is something you can, you can die doing. So it's, it is not like these other medicines. 0 (44m 12s): but it is, if I had someone who I loved and the everything else was not working a thousand percent, I would get them to a legal legal clinic, a legal clinic or gray clinic as they are in Canada. 1 (44m 25s): Isn't ayahuasca, can't you stop breathing on Ayahuasca? 0 (44m 31s): I don't, I don't know the answer to that. I have not heard that. I know there's respiratory things even with, I think there're respiratory issues with, with a few of them. but it again, in the scale of probability, these medicines are safer than a lot of medicines that are illegal. So you can get, you can overdose in Tylenol, you can overdose on, certainly overdose in alcohol happens daily. Yeah, yeah. You can't overdose on psilocybin. You can't overdose on lst and again, you don't get, you get hooked. So yes, all these medicines should be approached with reverence and with with respect for it. These are medicines and these are a lot safer than things that we've been taught are safer, just not true. 0 (45m 13s): The trauma side in Psychedelics is cool, I'm really excited for you to be able to explore that with him. We talk about how, or they talk about not, we talk about how trauma manifests in our behaviors later in life. And we have a society, it's, we're so quick to judge drug users, oh they're addict, they're drug users, they're addicted, they're, they're, they're no good. But we don't have the same judgment to people who are addicted to work or addicted to sex or addicted to gambling for whatever reason. We are very judgmental on what we're, what on how we judge that. Or we look at people who are obese and say, oh well that's, they just don't know how to take care of themselves. 0 (45m 56s): But we don't have any empathy or sympathy for potentially what the trauma was that led to the behavior that led to where that person ended up. What ha that person ended up manifesting. 1 (46m 8s): I think there's a fine line. So I think when it comes to the judgment on drug users and probably even alcoholics cuz I feel like they're probably pretty similar at a grand scale. Like they are kind of like they're looked at at maybe like the deplorables essentially like wasted space. I think that comes from like an evolutionary need to be clean and protect our space. Because if you see needles while you're walking your kid to school it, you are, it's gonna be very hard for a normal person to have sympathy or empathy for that person when my priority is my child. Now you can say that you can maybe get to a space where like, you know, may you love everyone the same. 1 (46m 49s): I don't know anyone that's there. Like, you know, I love my child just as much as I love my neighbor. Like that is like a different level of consciousness. Sure, sure. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's very rare and I certainly don't possess that. So when my priority is my family and now your decisions are impeding on my freedom and my right to like safety and cleanliness, I think like that's maybe where it comes in. Like it's a little bit harsher because like that bleed over is more obvious. Whereas if you have a gambling addiction or a compulsion issue and you're having sex every 10 minutes with a different woman, that doesn't really affect me. So I think maybe that's part of it. 1 (47m 30s): I also think when it comes to Psychedelics and like the whole spirituality space, we get into judgment a lot and judgment is like we wanna rid ourselves of that. And I think a lot of our judgments are probably, you know more about ourselves. Like everything's a mirror and I'm really scared sure that I'm gonna become that thing that I'm, that I'm judging. That I'm judging. Yeah, absolutely. But I also think it can be a useful tool, right? So if you see someone and you get an intuition or an inkling or a judgment about them, like about their character, whether or not that good bad person and you can get into like duality. Some people are like, there is no duality and we can go off onto that. 1 (48m 10s): But I think right here in this human experience, there are good and bad people. So I think you don't wanna completely cast that aside because you can find yourself in a dangerous situation if you are trying to be more enlightened than is probably useful in this space. Does that make sense? Like if you're, I can fe I feel like you can go to woo, you can go to woo and then like you are so disconnected from the human experience. So I think that like our human faculties are here for a reason and it's important that they don't, they're not steering the wheel that you're aware of them. Like just like anger or eating for example. 1 (48m 50s): Like eating is a pleasurable experience and some people have that compulsion issue so then they overeat and sure that might be linked to trauma. But there's this good adage might, what's his name, mark Andreessen says and he's like, there's no orphans after 21. So it's essentially, yes those traumas could be very real and that's so unfortunate that that's part of your story, but you do have a responsibility to yourself and to society and your family and and you know, scale it out to fix and heal that. So I think there's a lot of power that can come in Healing, those traumas and maybe becoming aware of things that you didn't even know were there. 1 (49m 31s): But I also think it's equally if not more important to not spend too much time in your rear view mirror and like spend more time on like, how do I improve as a person and what's my future self look like and put the energy there. And I think you can have a very similar effect. But I see often as people blaming and shaming and self-loathing in the space where there's no accountability because they're like, well, I was beaten as a kid, or my dad was an alcoholic, or I had a borderline mom. Whatever that story is like, yes, that's very real and you are entitled to how you feel about that. Like your pain is very real. 1 (50m 12s): I'm not trying to diminish that, but it also, you're doing yourself such a disservice by like living there and blaming there. So like let's say your dad was abusive, right? And that was the case for me. Like I had, I grew up with like a lot of abuse in like in our household and like mom's boyfriends and things like that. And I also have siblings. And I can tell you our perspectives have absolutely shaped our realities. So my perspective as an adult was I chose to stop blaming, I chose to forgive, I chose to love. And it's not to say any of those behaviors were okay or tolerable, but by holding onto that anger, I'm actually doing myself a disservice. So it's that there's a real, what's his name? 1 (50m 54s): There's an author, but he says like anger is like an acid and it does more damage to the vessel than what you poured onto. So you're really doing more damage to yourself than to anyone else. So you owe yourself that forgiveness of that other person. Some of my siblings don't see it that way and there's still a lot of anger towards that. And now their reality has shifted to that. That is not as beautiful in my opinion. So I do think that you have to, you have to like face that accountability factor and like move forward and not do so much of like the, I had a really rough childhood, so that's why I'm 400 pounds. It's like, okay, that might be true or that might have been true. 1 (51m 34s): But what's true now is like your functioning adult that you n now need to like use the tools that are at your disposal, at your disposal to try to elevate to the next level and heal that. 0 (51m 46s): I totally hear what you're saying with this and I think a lot of what you said is, is beautiful, makes, makes, makes sense. When we think about, we think about living and responsibility for life, the only one we're responsible for is ourselves. I think a lot of challenges people have is because they feel responsible or they feel like they owe something to their family. I need to be this or do this because so-and-so wants me to do that. And that's a dangerous path to go down. It is. And what you, what you talked about with the, with the trauma, the, the one story I write on the book is, is I had some inappropriate sexual contact with a, with a family member 10 years older than me as a young teen. 0 (52m 37s): And for years I couldn't talk about it when it was like one of those things when someone would bring something up, my ears would get red and I'd have like this little pit on my stomach, I'd be like, oh, shut the fuck up. Like I can't talk about this. Yeah. And, and one of these psychedelic experiences, I found myself right back in that last situation I was in and I was like, I don't want to be here. This is not what I asked for. This is not my intention. This is not what I, I'm not working on this, this isn't a drawer. I don't talk about this drawer. And, and, and a lot of what you said really resonated. So I was able to, because of the medicine removing shame, blame and guilt, I was able to look at this situation and not forgive or con not ex condone, but look at be like, okay, this person was, was deeply unloved or felt deeply unloved. 0 (53m 27s): She had her own substance use challenges. She was rejected from her father. She was not as smart as her brother. She's having all sorts of issues and she just wanted to be loved. And I could, again, not condoning, but not look at her as a perpetrator at that moment, but as a human who was suffering, who just made a bad decision or bad decisions. And from that moment now I can talk about it and not feel like, oh, I'm mortified that I did something wrong and that I'm, I'm a bad person for having this experience. And, and I think somehow in this, and weirdly I'm able now to talk about this and maybe talk to other people who had experiences that were like, that are much more challenging and have some, some ability to relate to what they're talking about. 0 (54m 17s): We all have this, this opportunity. We have this, we have this physical space that we occupy and it's all an opportunity and suffering. Well, the person I work with is, again, talking about these, these integrators, the person I work with always reminds me of suffering is optional. So we're gonna have the same breath. We can, how do we think about this breath? How do we think about this next moment? And we can choose to suffer or we can choose not to suffer. That all being said, it's really hard Candace, and sometimes, and part of what I talk about these medicines, there's a lot of different ways you can come to that conclusion. But for some people having this type of medicine just helps them because we get into repetitive thought. 0 (55m 2s): We get into this is the way I think this is the way it is this, the sky is gray, this is this, this is this and it's over and it's over and it's over. And it's that narrator. And some of these medicines can disrupt that pattern And remind us of how we were when all of our neurons were firing, when we were tiny, tiny. And then it's like, okay, I don't have to think this way. I can see a different path and now let me try that for tomorrow or lemme try that for the rest of today. And that's really powerful. I mean that, that's kind of one of the best things about this medicine is that chance to get that, that reset button, turn off the programming for six hours, remind yourself of who you are and then see what you wanna do next. 1 (55m 55s): So people that don't have any effect, and let's say they do a substantial dose, let's say it's like five and they're a very small person, maybe size doesn't matter, but like let's say it's a big, a big dose for your person and there is no effect whatsoever. Have you encountered that and is there like a general observation as to why that happens and how to maybe have a more successful journey the next time? 0 (56m 21s): Yeah, I mean, so certainly not having an effect today doesn't mean tomorrow the exact same amount of medicine, you're not gonna have an effect. But there are things that you can do to help have more of an effect. So things like they talk about giving yourself into the medicine, you're gonna surrender to the medicine. Well, for someone like me who's, I mean I'm such a, like I, I've been such a control, like I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do that and then this is gonna happen and it's hard to release control. So having kind of breathing techniques, having a ceremony where it's gonna be, okay, we're going to, let's get into this space, let's be present here, let's breathe into here. Let's be mindful of this moment. Let's remind me why we're here then let's take this as a sacrament, then let's continue to breathe, continue to relax. 0 (57m 7s): And trying to get in that level of relaxation before and in the beginning stages lead to an hour later as the medicine comes on. I think a, a deeper experience. I think music choices can also go a long way. I love at a, at retreat or ceremony, having live musicians. I think there's an energy that that comes out of that you can, you can sometimes feel the energy of a guitar string or feel the resonant of the, of the drum or even sometimes you can like get into somebody's, like you almost can climb into their mouth and feel their vocal chords shaking and it's, it's just kind of incredible with music. So for me, music get is something that helps a lot. 0 (57m 49s): And, and then I think just, yeah, over and over relax, it's gonna be okay. Breathe, surrender, surrender. But that's also why you can't be talked into or you shouldn't be talked into doing Psychedelics. This has to be a personal choice. I want to do this because I want to do this. I'm here to surrender. And with that, in that instruction, you can, you can be taken pretty far. 1 (58m 15s): So when it comes to trying to influence someone to try these medicines, how far would you say is influence versus, because I do agree it's kinda like free college in my opinion. If you, if you give someone free education up to a PhD, like they're not gonna really take it as seriously. There's not that financial risk that it's associated. So I do think you do have to have skin in the game for all things that are truly important. So if you're like, Hey, I know this facilitator and hey, there's this docu-series and like at what point is it you are kind of doing too much of like you're influencing too much for like I'll book your appointment, I'll drive you there. 1 (58m 56s): Like I do agree that they do have to want it and make that choice for themselves. So how much influence is appropriate for someone to the space? 0 (59m 3s): It's, that's really a challenging question because it, and it's almost the difference between marketing and attraction. I'm promoting or I'm attracting, what I'd like to think that I'm doing is I'm attracting people who want to hear whatever it is I'm, I'm saying for whatever reason that they want to hear it and then they're deciding whether they trust me and then they're deciding, oh, where's he going going, what's that gonna be like? And, and I completely agree instead of the term skin in the game, I might use energy exchange that if you don't put some energy in including financial, then it are you as committed as you say you are. So it doesn't have to be the same, it doesn't have to be equal dollars. Some people can, it takes a lot more energy to have the same impact as other people. 0 (59m 45s): But I, I don't know, I don't, I'm feeling into that Candace, I'm trying to figure out where do I draw that line between I'm over promoting versus I'm just trying to give you the information. You're looking for the information anyhow, I'm just one of a number of sources that you're hopefully looking at and I'm gonna tell you my perspective and, and if I can be of assistance, I'm happy to be of assistance. And, and if you don't need my assistance, that's, that's perfectly fine too. No bad. Anybody 1 (1h 0m 11s): See, there's certain, there's certain religions where if you're trying to like become like a, a fellow, they turn you down X amount of times so you can go there and you are so passionate and you're like, I really wanna become X, Y, or Z. And they're like, no, go away. No go away. And they do that to really test like how steadfast you are in, in this belief. And I feel like it's probably the same. So I have some people in my life that I have either tried to kind of nudge into this space or into just like brain training with Biosyn because I think you can get to very similar spaces. I think it's probably a lot easier if you're doing Psychedelics than the way that I did it at Bio Biosyn not, cause I don't really meditate either. 1 (1h 0m 55s): So it was very challenging for me and it also had its pain points. So I, I'll give two options and I found myself kind of getting into like maybe a point where I was pestering, so now I'm backing off a lot and I'm like, well I've told you how much these things have positively affected my life. Now if you wanna have a similar change, like I'll wait for you to come to me and then I'll give you the resources that I have. But instead of like, here's their phone number, here's their website. Like I want people to now like ask, so if you don't ask, I'm not gonna do it. Because I find that people will either in the moment be really curious or maybe they're trying to appease me or whatever the motivation is, but it's not really authentic and there's no real motivation there and then it'll be useless. 1 (1h 1m 39s): So for bio cyber, not for example, there was a time where I was thinking about paying for a family member to go and it's very, very, very expensive, but I was like, I know this will fix you. Once we did it, they were like, well we've had that happen and people just don't show up. Like they'll send a car and they're like, I'm not doing this. And it's not their money. They didn't go through with like the clicking of booking of the appointment. So there is something really important in that to facilitate the change. I think. 0 (1h 2m 6s): So you're, you're making, you're resonating with me when I found myself in a similar situation, a lot of times it's because I'm attached to the outcome and as soon as I become aware of that, I'm like, ah shit, this isn't my place to be attached. The other times are when I'm scared of the alternative, like, oh, if this person doesn't do this, something bad's going to happen to them, to us, to whatever. And that's, that's a false narrative that I find myself sometimes caught in that loop. That word fix jumped out of me. And that I know that when I'm thinking I can fix somebody, something's off for me. That everybody's perfect, perfectly imperfect that they have that there are things I believe that can help but fix. 0 (1h 2m 55s): I, I try not personally just use that and I know I'm sorry, but I, I try, it's a practice. There are definitely times when I feel, oh, if they just did this, it would fix that. And it is, and again, try not to be too woowoo. So it's like we're all gonna, in the WOOWOO world, I believe we're all healing's coming, we're all going to be healed at some point. We can choose to do it. Parts of it now we can do it later. But the, yeah, I think, I think it's, I think the attachment and Scarcity for me are the two times when I get myself in trouble and, and I feel myself going over the line. 0 (1h 3m 36s): Okay, it's okay, wait a minute, they don't, they don't need to do this. Or sorry, they don't, this isn't this, this is me, Dr. Trying to draw them in versus them seeking this. And that's different. 1 (1h 3m 49s): Scarcity is mine too. I think that's my biggest hindrance. Yeah. And it's something, oh my gosh, it's, I've talked at this at nauseum with Eric because like there's still a lot there and I mean I've done a lot of work and it's, it just doesn't seem to make a substantial dent. Like I've definitely noticed the floor is moving on it. So what used to be like a crippling Scarcity mindset, now it's like kind of more in the shadows, do you know what I mean? Like it's not obvious. Totally. And with that, my life has changed and like the abundance in my life has changed. So I see as I get rid of that, I say get rid of that. 1 (1h 4m 29s): As I make a dent in that my ceiling also raises and then I start to attract more opportunities. Things start to become more successful. I'm happier and there's just more peace in general as I start to work on that. But I think for me growing up we moved around a ton and there wasn't a lot of stability. There wasn't stability in my environment, in my caregivers, in how people showed up emotionally or psychologically for you. Like there was no predictability. And that can be very overwhelming for a kid. And of course it's chaotic. So one of the promises I made to myself at a very young age is like, I will always be financially responsible for myself. 1 (1h 5m 12s): I will never rely on a man, I will never rely on anything like I am going to be be my own provider. Because to me that financial security was stability and then that was safety. And then that meant I was gonna of course be happy and all my dreams are gonna come true because that's what you think. So I had like a, and still probably have like a bad relationship with money and it's not like agreed. It's more of like air to me. So it's if there's, and that number's always changing and that's the interesting thing. So it's when you're younger and you don't have access to as much, you're like, okay, well if I just have $500, I'll be good. I'll be at peace. There's no number. Cause you're numbers are infinite. 1 (1h 5m 52s): Yeah. So like, you know, there is no end, there is no, there's not gonna be a validation in this infinite thing if that's what you're looking for. So I like consciously, I know that. But to feel it is totally different. And until you feel it, it's not gonna become your reality. So there still are times, like if I, for example, I took maternity leave so I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't working, I wasn't podcasting. I was supposed to just be enjoying that moment. And there were definitely times where that would rear its ugly head and I would be like, I'm gonna lose everything. And what if everyone forgets who I am and the podcast goes to zero and like, just like the most ridiculous, overwhelming ca catastrophic ideas would come into my head. 1 (1h 6m 39s): And I know it's not real and I know how silly it sounds, but the feeling was there. So I mean there's definitely work to do on that end and it's probably gonna be ongoing. But I know like chisel away at it, 0 (1h 6m 53s): That's a practice. I mean that sounds like a, it sounds like a challenging childhood. It's not the storybook childhood that you would write for, for for your children. 1 (1h 7m 3s): No, certainly 0 (1h 7m 4s): Not. Certainly not. And you were what, what we would call an early, you were early promoted, you were forced into the role of an adult when you were still a child and you had to, you were responsible for your safety and you couldn't always and share that. And that had to bring a lot of stuff with that. And, and you had, you were forced to move and you were forced to make new friends and you were forced to go to different schools and you had no say in your life. And so yeah, of course I'm gonna be financial, I'm gonna be independent, I'm gonna be fine. I don't need anybody cause I'm gonna be, I'm gonna make sure that I'm okay. And, and yeah. 0 (1h 7m 44s): And you can do that with certain aspects but that doesn't change the inside. It just changes the outside. You can, I'm gonna make sure I have a house, I'm gonna make sure I have resources. 1 (1h 7m 53s): Yeah. And then good luck forming a healthy relationship with someone else. When you're that independent, it's impossible because you do need to have, it's kind of like one of those Venn diagrams, like that's how I see a healthy relationship is like you still maintain independence, but then there's there this like interdependence together that you do share. And it's different than like being codependent. One of those circles are, it looks like, like one circle cuz you're so overlapped. So when you're completely like, I'm gonna provide, I'm gonna be like this very masculine energy, like I'm both the man and the woman. So where's there room for Eric? And that was one of our challenges earlier on, earlier on in our relationship was like me allowing space for him to come in because I wouldn't, you know what I mean? 1 (1h 8m 34s): Like to me that was a level of vulnerability that I just couldn't risk because again, that Scarcity mindset, not like there was enough to go. You know what I mean? Like there's enough for both of us, enough space for both of us, 0 (1h 8m 45s): Enough space. And I'm not going to allow myself to, I don't need you. Right. I'm gonna let you in for a while because I do, but I don't need you. Cause it could have hurt too much. 1 (1h 8m 55s): Absolutely. Yeah. 0 (1h 8m 57s): It is so different, different childhoods. But my father was a, a raging alcoholic and had a temper. So we always, we never knew what the next 10 minutes could be. And so I found myself at like, I was the peacemaker. I could, I could make him laugh. I can get him to bed, I can get him like, yeah, that was one of my roles. And I always thought, I've thought a lot about independence. I, that's one other story that ties to this is my mom, she left St. Louis at 18, right after high school, moved to New York to become a writer. It's kind of like the madman story. She, she was a secretary that became a writer and, and, and I love that story and it's only later in life that I've looked back at that story and said, well wait a minute. 0 (1h 9m 44s): She left her four siblings who loved her to move to a city where she didn't know anybody. And she started dating my father when he was still married to somebody else. And then they got divorced and then we got to be the new family. And a lot of my illusions about what it meant to be independent, what it meant to be an entrepreneur meant to be successful. I started to question. So again, I know my mom loved me so, so, so much. It's not that, not, that's not what I'm saying here, but I'm looking at the beha, the things that I s at one point in my life I celebrated and wanted to embody. I'm gonna be independent, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur, I'm gonna be my own person. 0 (1h 10m 31s): And then realizing, well that's led to, I was gone too much when my kids were young. Did I ever give my wife the same, the amount of love and support that she's given me? I don't think so. And I didn't even know it. I didn't know it. So again, it's just, I'm not quite sure how we got to here in this discussion. But that's the, the medicine is, is again helps provide some levels of clarity. And it's all this other work that goes around it that, okay, how do you unpack this? How do you, how do we make more room for people we we love or who love us in our lives and how do we, one of the programs I did was was looking at all the things we didn't like about our parents and writing them down. 0 (1h 11m 16s): They were selfish and they were didn't keep me safe and they did this and they did that. And then taking time to really look at our own actions and be like, oh shit, I've adopted this and this and that. I might call it something different, but it's the same behavior and that level of work, no way would I've done that five years ago. No way. But I'm very grateful to be doing it now and still on this journey and meeting people like you and Eric and being able to have these discussions. Last thing I'm gonna say on this, I'll stop talking promises this, this idea of intimacy, this like, as a guy, I think we're taught, we're only taught that intimacy is sex. 0 (1h 11m 57s): And again, at a very late age I'm like, oh my god, no, you can be intimate with all sorts of people and there's really beautiful ways and I want more of that and I can have more of that than I ever imagined. And that's been a really beautiful journey. So I just went down a rabbit hole. I'm not sure how you got me down to this, but it's, 1 (1h 12m 18s): No, that's, that's when it's good. You're just flowing. The intimacy piece I think is really important to touch on because I also feel like I was in a space where I conflated intimacy with sex and but when you do that, you lose all intimacy, then it just becomes sex and it becomes just like an act. Like there is no actual connection. And then you can obviously scale that into like intimate friendships that are platonic. Like they don't have to be romantic. But again, that, that requires like a level of, of vulnerability. And a lot of people, especially if you come from any trauma, like that's the last thing that you wanna do. Because if you allow space to be vulnerable, then that means you can hurt me. 1 (1h 13m 0s): And that means I'm no longer in control or have the idea that I'm in control. Cuz none of us actually are. But yeah, I think there's always space to kind of improve on with that. I mean I've been with Eric now for, I think we're going 12 years. That's amazing. And there's still space to become more intimate. And one of the things that we are planning on doing is when I'm done breastfeeding and when my body becomes my own again is like, is doing an MDMA ceremony with, with Roger and to like kind of reconnect because there's no way around it. When you bring in like a new life, it's like, well that's the priority. Like he gets the biggest piece of the pie right now, unfortunately, you know, cuz everyone, there's only so much he can do for himself. 1 (1h 13m 47s): So I think it is important for couples that have been together for a really long time to constantly be checking in because I've, I think it's very easy to get lazy and to kind of neglect our partner. And we just assume, especially if you're married, that they're just gonna be there and they're just gonna have to tough it out. And I don't need to take care of myself anymore because I landed you like your attraction to me doesn't matter. I don't need to cook for you anymore. You can fix your own plate. Well, I mean it's, that's like a sign of love, right? If food is universal, I should want to give you something. So I see a lot of like tit for tat and relationships and that's kind of, that's a problem. 0 (1h 14m 25s): Yeah. Or keeping score. Yeah, I did the dishes but you didn't do the laundry. This is un this isn't fair. 1 (1h 14m 30s): Right? You can't do that. The whole idea of 50 50 is toxic. So I've heard like you wanna squash the 50 50 and it's like everyone should be doing a hundred percent. Like I show up at a hundred percent, you show up at a hundred percent. Not this. I took out the trash and I let out the dog and what have you been doing all day? Like that's not love. 0 (1h 14m 47s): Yeah. This, this, again, I'm gonna bring back that same integrator who talks about a hundred percent accountability. You are a hundred percent accountable for everything in your life. So if you don't have a good relationship with your partner, you are a hundred percent responsible for that. If you have a great relationship, if you're a hundred percent responsible and on and on on, you've manifested all of this and how are you going to, yeah, how are, what are you gonna keep doing in your movie? So are you're gonna keep continuing this? Are you gonna, do you want to stay in that relationship? Do you know I wanna stay in that relationship? What would you, what are you gonna do? But you can't control what the other person does. So you can, you can yeah. A hundred percent accountable for yourself. 1 (1h 15m 26s): Have you ever had or seen instances, cuz this is, I know this is a common fear with, with, especially with couples, is that people go in together and then they realize we shouldn't, we're no longer like a good fit. 0 (1h 15m 42s): I haven't, I haven't seen that in the, if anything I've seen the opposite. I've seen people who clearly are struggle with whatever they're struggling with and, and rediscover kind of what were those core elements and then work on nurturing that. I'm thinking about that here. I have seen single people who came without their spouse. Sorry, they're sorry, sorry they were married, but they came alone at the end. Realize I don't think I'm in the right relationship as a person who works in the space. I would encourage 'em. Okay, great. And don't make any decisions. 0 (1h 16m 23s): Take some time. This is, you take weeks and work on this before you use, you don't jump off right from the psychedelic experience, but yeah, I, but I'm sure it happens. I'm sure people come through that and say, yeah, we just, we've, we've, we're at different points and that's okay. And it's probably, I could see as a, a beautiful way to let go of someone if if that's where, if that's what you wanted to do. 1 (1h 16m 47s): Yeah. That happened at, I wasn't there for it, but the like counselors at Bio Cyber Cyber not were talking about it and he said it happened. It happens not like frequently, but it does happen. And the interesting thing is once they decide that they're no longer a proper fit, like there's no bad feelings. Like no one's sad, no one's angry, there's like no resentment. They're just like happy and want the best for their person. They're like, this is the most love I've felt for this person in a really long time. Which I think is so interesting. Cause you're like, how is that possible? But yeah, I think it's, I think what's shows up for you is what is supposed to show up for you in those experiences. 0 (1h 17m 29s): Yeah. But I think so many people break up or get divorced badly. Right? It's okay, I'm, I'm, I'm not strong enough to end this, so I'm gonna go have an affair and then I'm gonna get, and I'm gonna do it in a way that I'm gonna get caught and I'm gonna do that to create drama because I really just want this to end and I need all that noise around me to do this. And then that's so disruptive. It's disruptive to children, it's disruptive to everybody. It's, it's, it's hard. And going at it with love, I can love you and I don't want to be with you, but I still want nothing with great things for you. That, that could be, yeah, I think MDMA or MDMA for that purpose could be really beautiful for decoupling. 1 (1h 18m 10s): That's really interesting. So I know you have a drive, so I wanted to touch on one more thing and then we can check to see if we have any super chats. Sure. When it comes to Psychedelics, are there people that shouldn't take them? Because I've heard, so Alex Berenson wrote this book and it was mostly on cannabis and it was bringing to light that some people do tend to have a schizophrenic break that they don't come back from with high dose edibles or dabs when it comes to cannabis. Now where the conversation is, is whether they were predisposed to schizophrenia and then that was just the trigger that turned that gene expression on. 1 (1h 18m 57s): Or if you have a relatively healthy person that isn't predisposed, that is now schizophrenic. So I've heard with Psychedelics, it's kind of similar that if you have certain mental illness that runs in your family genetically, that you have to be very careful and with some people, depending on the severity of it, that you should kind of stay away from it altogether. 0 (1h 19m 21s): So I think if I, Dr. James Fadiman just did a, or did a, an interview recently with Sam Harris about this. And I'm gonna try to paraphrase, I'm gonna do the best I can. Okay. But he talked about the, the incentives of academia to study. So he says, okay, if you're gonna, if it's hard enough to study Psychedelics and if you're going to be allowed to study Psychedelics, are you going to choose to study any of these really hard groups bipolar, schizophrenia, or are you gonna take more straight line? The answer is they're gonna take straight lines. They're gonna, they, they want to weed those out. So there's not, yes, Johns Hopkins, Imperial College, they'll all say, if you have bipolar, you have schizophrenia, you have that in your one separation of your family, you shouldn't do this clinical study, you shouldn't do Psychedelics. 0 (1h 20m 8s): I think what James Fadiman is saying is, but they don't know that is just because that's the way research has gone and there's no research that says it's safe and it's illogical to assume this. So then he says, so let's turn to citizen scientists, let's look at the Reddit groups. And there are Reddit groups of bipolar people who take Psychedelics. There are Reddit, there's actually, there's a whole autistic society related to Psychedelics. It's really, I had no idea. Oh, it's so cool, so cool. Went to a dinner with, with one of them and, and then at the Microdose conference in Miami there is a book signing of, but with this author who's talking about how much of an impact Psychedelics did on him, that he wasn't able to read facial expressions. 0 (1h 20m 54s): But then with the help of L S D wow, he was able to understand differently. It's like OHS amazing. Of course you were, of course that makes sense. And that some of the things were, were as looked at as not feeling he was able through Psychedelics to feel differently. So cool. That's very cool. Is there a lot of research on it? There's not, but again, there's a lot of, there's so you can find, you can find groups that talk about this. So I don't quite know how to answer that. I think if you have schizophrenia in your family or bipolar, then maybe that's another level of precaution that you should be thinking about before you do this. 0 (1h 21m 37s): And maybe looking at some of that citizen scientist science and thinking about it, but also knowing that you're probably not gonna find the research. You're gonna have to feel into this yourself and see where it takes you. Besides for that, there are definitely contraindications with certain medications. So again, in my book I go through eight different medicines and very specifically talk about what is, what is a known contraindication. So something to be aware of for most. What's nice about ketamine is the only legal psychedelic is that because it works in your glutamate system, you can actually be on antidepressants and take ketamine at the same time. The latest research appears that you can also do psilocybin while on antidepressants you just need more of it. 0 (1h 22m 22s): But that the risk of serotonin syndrome, which is what people thought would happen is, is less than what was originally thought. So I think that's interesting. But other types of antidepressants, mais, and again, just be aware of which medicine you're taking and the, the potential contraindications. There is some really good work being done. There's a person out there, Dr. Ben Malcolm, and he's called the Spirit Pharmacist, if you look that up online. Okay. I think for $300 he will, he's, so he's a, he's a, he's a a pharm D so he's got a, he's specialized in in pharmaceuticals and he's a passionate about psychedelic medicine. And for $300, he'll do a one hour consult anywhere in the country on what are you on and what are you thinking about using and this is what you need to know or this is how you could potentially wean yourself off without Yeah, he gives, he does. 0 (1h 23m 15s): And he has a membership program where you can have access to his resources beyond that. So yeah, the spirit pharmacist, I'm not sure if it's the spirit pharmacist.com or whatever, but look that up online. And that's a good resource for really anybody, wherever they are, if they're concerned about what am I taking and how could this potentially interact, that's a good resource for you. 1 (1h 23m 31s): What a cool time to be alive. Cool. That that's a thing. 0 (1h 23m 35s): Yeah, absolutely. And I say that all the time. There's so many ways this is like the best, we know this is the best time in the history of the world to be alive and we know there's a lot of challenges and that's all. Okay. That's all. Okay. 1 (1h 23m 46s): Yeah. Well, no, this was awesome. Jamie, do we have any super chats? No, I didn't see any. Okay, let me scroll up super quick. One is from Magic GoPro. It says, I have a fantasy. What would you recommend for me? Do you know what that is? 0 (1h 24m 8s): I don't know what that is. 1 (1h 24m 10s): Lemme see if I can Google it really quick. 0 (1h 24m 13s): Fantasy. 1 (1h 24m 14s): Watch it not even be like a real thing. No. And then it's like a Gotcha. I'm really bad at those. 0 (1h 24m 20s): No, no, no. 1 (1h 24m 21s): When you are blind in your mind. I've never heard of that. 0 (1h 24m 28s): You know, it's, it's, so I I've, I've been on journeys with people who have been colorblind and, and they've been able to see the colors. 1 (1h 24m 36s): So this is someone who's the inability to create a mental image. I've never heard of that, but that sounds awful. 0 (1h 24m 43s): That sounds like a, that sounds hard. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't have an answer for that. I, it would be super interesting to see if the same, if that holds true with psilocybin or L S D or dmt, one of the, the very visual would be interesting. So that person wasn't willing to commit to a six or eight hour journey. What's nice about DMT or even five M e o dmt, which is bufo, those are like 20, 25 minutes. So it's intense, super intense. It's a rocket ship and they're, the DMT particularly is incredibly visual. So it would be interesting to see if it's visual for that person. 0 (1h 25m 24s): I, I don't know, I've never, 1 (1h 25m 25s): Yeah, maybe try that spirit pharmacist and see if they have more insight. I don't 0 (1h 25m 30s): Know. He, the spirit pharmacist would be good if there was an, if there's a drug interaction that was causing that, I don't know. I think I would turn this, I'd 1 (1h 25m 38s): Go to Reddit. Maybe go 0 (1h 25m 39s): To Reddit maybe. Yeah, yeah. 1 (1h 25m 41s): Or I haven't even 0 (1h 25m 41s): Heard of that. You know, there's also a bunch of integrators if you go to the map, so the multidisciplinary association for Psychedelic studies, they have a number of integrators on their website that, again, these people aren't gonna help you find the medicine, but they might help you. So it might be somewhere that person could go and find someone from near them, be like, Hey, have you ever, ever heard of this? And maybe those people on the map site have some more experience in this and say, oh yeah, you could check this out. Or might know somebody to call. 1 (1h 26m 11s): Yeah, keep us 0 (1h 26m 12s): Posted. That's interesting. I'd 1 (1h 26m 13s): Love to hear about that. 0 (1h 26m 15s): Yeah, it was cool at the colorblind person who, I mean see ah, and just cuz when you, at least again, in my experience, I've never seen so many colors. I thought I saw the colors before I was wrong. And I think this person had that first glimpse of, wow, this is a really colorful universe I live in. And just hadn't thought that for his first 50 years of life. So it was, it was super cool to watch. It's beautiful. 1 (1h 26m 38s): Yeah. I would wanna do, I'd be curious about one of those short-lived ones. Cuz for me the intimidating factor with a lot of them is the time commitment because I'm like, I don't know if I want to be gone for that long. So even if it's intense, if I know it's gonna be short-lived, to me that seems a little bit like less of a gamble. But 0 (1h 26m 58s): I totally get that and that that, yeah, I love, I mean I think my, I have year had to pick a favorite. I mean that five m e o DMT is such a beautiful, beautiful medicine. I mean they talk and, and the we talk, I was like, it's your, it's your personal conversation with God for 20 minutes. That's so cool. It's wild. Like you just, for me, I just dissolve into like the energy of the universe. Mm. And there's no anything. There's no you, there's no, it's just everything and everybody's energy and it just feels so good. Yeah. It's a beautiful, beautiful medicine. 1 (1h 27m 39s): Well see that's why I think it's important that context is taken into account and that there's a facilitator or at least like, you know what you're doing because I accidentally did DMT one time. So you say, how does that happen? Well, I was at someone's house party and I thought that it was just weed. 0 (1h 27m 57s): It was a vape pen. Yes. 1 (1h 27m 59s): No one told me, like, I think someone had told me that it was weed. I would never, ever, ever, ever have done that, especially at that stage of my life ever considered it. But I'm like, oh it's just weed and I'll just have like, you know, a couple of puffs or whatever and who, and I get taken out and I'm in the worst place ever for about 20 minutes where I just thought it was gonna get murdered and buried in the deserts. It was horrible. And that's awesome. And there was like girls in the corner that were like also freaking out and I'm like, you can't just hand stuff to people. So yeah, this is why I'm like, you need to be very conscientious of where you're taking it, who you're taking it with. Because that was nothing like that beautiful conversation with God that you had. 1 (1h 28m 41s): I wish that was my, my experience. So hopefully next time I'm in a better setting and I know that I'm taking it. But this was amazing. I'd love to have you back on anytime that you're, we'd 0 (1h 28m 51s): Love to be back. 1 (1h 28m 52s): There's so many other things I'd love to touch on. But before we close out, do you just wanna tell the viewers and listeners where they can get your book and how they can follow you and, and support you and keep up with all of 0 (1h 29m 3s): Your work? I really appreciate that. So Psychedelics for Everyone is available anywhere books are sold. It's also, we have an audiobook now and that's kind of fun. It was fun to put that together. 1 (1h 29m 11s): Did you read 0 (1h 29m 12s): It? I, so Dr. Carlos Water wrote the Ford that he wrote. I wrote all the pieces that I wrote and then Leslie Howard wrote all the pieces that women wrote. So I wanted to to honor the voices of the Okay. Of the women who wrote their chapters. So yeah, it was fun to put that together and, and then Matt Zemon dot com is my website and then I'm gonna put on Matt Zemon dot com slash candace. I'll put a free guide to microdosing just so people can, if they're interested in the microdosing that they can, they can go there and kind of read the protocols and and see if things are of a see different ways to microdose. 1 (1h 29m 45s): Yeah. Cause I definitely wanna talk about that in the future with you for sure. Sure. 0 (1h 29m 48s): So 1 (1h 29m 49s): Yeah, absolutely. And I'll put all those Links at the bottom once we turn this over. We did get one more question really quick. This is from Magic GoPro and it says, I've taken Mushrooms with very limited visual effects, face melting or fluid, wood grain. Is there a question there or you just wanted me to know? I did not have a lot of visual effects either. Magic. So I think if that's what you're aiming for, maybe try again. I don't know. Yeah, 0 (1h 30m 21s): Try again. Just the first time doesn't always work for people. And maybe change the dosage and add a ceremony if you didn't do that. Yeah, lots of, 1 (1h 30m 34s): Lots of ways to 0 (1h 30m 35s): Get there. Lots of ways to get there. 1 (1h 30m 36s): Okay. Well thank you everyone who showed up. Thank you for doing this podcast, especially in person. It's so much better that way. So much more fun in person. I look forward to having you back 0 (1h 30m 45s): On. Thank you Candace. Thanks for having me. Yeah.