#72 Mathew Hussey - Modern Love, Dating, Marriage

0 (0s): Sometimes you are in a beautiful relationship, but you're not getting that rush because everything is where it's supposed to be. Like this is homeostasis, but you can't appreciate it because almost like, I don't know if you're into Joe dispenser or anything like that, but you kind of get addicted to your neuro, your neurochemistry. So if you have all of that chaos happening or you're constantly in this fight or flight, then those pathways get so deep that that's just a habit. Hey everybody, you're listening to Chatting with Candace. I'm your host Candice Horbacz. Before we jump into this episode, if you can hit that like and subscribe button wherever you're listening or watching, that helps me a ton with the algorithm. 0 (42s): Thank you very much. In advance, this week's guest, we have Matthew Hussey. He is the number one channel on YouTube for relationship advice for women. He's a bestselling author. He has been doing this for over 15 years, and his website, which I'll link below, has custom programs for you and your relationship. He is also the host of the Love Life podcast, which offers modern and practical advice for your relationships. So please help me welcome Matthew Hussey. Okay, well thank you so much Matthew for joining the podcast today. I was really excited that you wanted to come on mine after I did your little web series because I felt I'm like, oh, my little show. 0 (1m 27s): That's awesome. So thank you for being here. 2 (1m 29s): Oh, it's my pleasure. I've been really excited about this conversation. 0 (1m 33s): So I, how does one get involved in Giving Relationship Advice? I feel, for me, I went into psychology at school and they tend to say people that try to figure out other people and themselves had either, you know, there was something in their family upbringing that made them kind of want to figure out how to navigate personalities and because it can be a superpower, I think, once you master yourself and master other people. 2 (2m 0s): Yeah. Wow. It's funny, when I was a teenager, I went, one of the first books I read in self-development, I was 11 years old and my, my dad had a bookshelf with How to Win Friends and Influence People on it, and I picked up that book. I devoured it. I mean, at, at first I kind of was, I was embarrassed to pick up the books. I was like, what? Why? You know, how to win Friends is not a title that you really necessarily want to be seen reading. But I, I read it and I was, I was hooked. I mean, I loved, I, I immediately latched onto this idea that you could do things that would make you, in my case, less shy. 2 (2m 43s): You could do things that would make you better with people or help you have more of an impact. And so that was my first foray into that world. And, and I just was completely addicted at that time, in, in, in a good sense. And I read and read and read all sorts of books like that. My friend's father used to take his company every year to Tony Robbins seminars, and I was about 14 at the time, maybe I was 14, 15. And he was taking his son as part of the experience, and his son was my friend and I, he came to me and he said, my dad said, I've got one more ticket if I wanna bring someone else. 2 (3m 25s): And I, wow. I went along and it, you know, he didn't know how excited I was because for me it was like the marriage of all of this stuff that I'd been reading about with this live performance that I, I'd never seen. It's not like I had had the ability to go to any of those things or even knew where they were. And all of a sudden I was a teenager watching Tony Robbins on stage and something kind of lit up in me. I didn't know what it meant long-term. I just knew this is, I, I want to be closer to this. Somehow. Very early in my late teens, early twenties, I started to work with people in my own capacity. 2 (4m 9s): First with guys. I was like, what can I help people with? And at the time, I had overcome my own shyness when it came to talking to girls. That was like the thing that I realized, well, maybe I can help people with that. And we, there were already people out there doing it. This whole community of people out there doing it. And my first kind of actual experience helping people in a professional setting was not professional at all. It was like going to these weekend events to help who wanted to overcome their fears of approaching women. And then a couple of years later, I moved out of that and started helping just women, which was kind of an interesting left turn. 2 (4m 53s): But I immediately, I didn't know exactly what I would help people with when I first did that. I just, I knew that I had read some women's books and I didn't feel like they covered everything that it, you know, from the male side. And I felt like I had something to add. And that was really where I, where I started. I think to your point about, you know, are there things in our own lives that precipitate us wanting to help other people? That's, I think something that was there. But I don't think it's a depth to my work that I realized until a few years later. 0 (5m 28s): You know what's interesting, I feel at least, maybe this is just the, the Twitter bubble that I find myself in, but for some reason we don't wanna take advice from the opposite sex. Like, we're like, well, you're a woman. Why are you giving advice to men? Or You're a man, why are you giving advice to women? But I would say, I think there's a vantage point that we don't necessarily see ourselves. It's like we're, we can be too close to our own problems. So it does take someone with a, a different perspective or a uni a unique perspective to maybe point out maybe certain flaws, shortcomings, improvements that we can make that otherwise we wouldn't see. So I do think it's really unique that you give a lot of women's advice with that. 0 (6m 12s): Like, where are we messing up? Where, how are, be we being led astray? Because I see some movies or some books and I'm like, ah, I couldn't disagree more, but these people will have a cult-like following and then these women that are digesting this, this content, like, why am I not getting the man? And the same for men? And I definitely wanna get into this too, a after which is men and who they're following, and these very like outrageous bombastic personas that are getting all the attention. But then the guy's still like, well, I'm still single or I'm still not getting the woman of my dreams. So yeah, I guess starting from where do you see women women's content kind of going astray? 2 (6m 57s): That's an interesting question. I, I, I mean firstly, I, I wanna say back when I started, it was an angle. The idea that I was a man helping women was something that, especially when media covered me, they lent quite heavily on that idea. And since then, I almost resisted it because I, I said, you know what? I don't want this to be, if my only credibility for helping people and coaching people is that I'm the opposite sex. It doesn't speak very highly of what it is I can do for people. So, and you know, since then I've recognized that it's both, you know, it's a con I think your point is valid, that there is a vantage point that sometimes you have, but I also think that has to come from something deeper than that. 2 (7m 44s): Ultimately as a, as a coach, your value has to come from something far, far deeper than that. The question you had about content that's out there. I look, my, my approach to it started out, which may be a very male-centric approach to female dating, but when I started out 15 years ago now, I had this idea that, you know what women are ending up with guys that are not great for them or guys that they should not be entertaining, who treat them badly because they don't have enough choice. They're not creating choice with men. 2 (8m 25s): And so they end up settling for this guy that came up to them and chose them. They didn't choose him, they were chosen and then they went along with it and now all of a sudden they're with this guy that doesn't really deserve them and their heart and how great they are. And you know, I thought this problem will go away if you just give someone a lot of choice. So my approach was this idea of the handkerchief that the reason women don't have choice is because they're not making the move. They're waiting for guys to make the move. How do they make the move? They, they can do what women did a hundred years ago and drop the handkerchief in front of a guy. It can still be feminine. The guy can still think it's his idea because he drop, he picked up the handkerchief, but actually it was the woman's idea. 2 (9m 12s): She chose him. She just did it in a very subtle way. So I started with that idea and then over the years I realized that there was a real flaw to that logic. And I, and I realized that not just in, not intuitively, but I saw what happened. I saw women who suddenly had choice but was still gravitating towards the wrong kinds of guys or guys that just didn't treat them well, or guys who weren't serious about a relationship, guys who didn't want the same thing they wanted. And, and then I had to ask that question. Okay, so if choice doesn't solve it for everybody, if people are still gravitating towards that bad food, even though they have all these options of great food, what's going on here and there? 2 (10m 3s): That's when, to me, the work started to go a lot deeper because attention, so it's like almost like the people that I was coaching were suddenly getting a lot more attention, but they didn't, they weren't discerning about the kind of attention they were getting. And attention is not intention. Those are two very different things. Just cuz someone gives you their attention, it doesn't mean they intend to have any longevity with you or treat you well or have a relationship. And even intention doesn't suffice because intention does not mean investment. 2 (10m 43s): Someone can have all these great intentions of how wonderful they wanna be for you, but if they don't truly invest in you, then those intentions don't count for an awful lot. So that, that to me has been the biggest shift in my work is moving from tactics in how to get people to go out there and get more results. Which don't get me wrong, there's a, there's a time and a place for the practical in that sense. But moving beyond that and into what are the, what are the things going on internally that even if we get told all of the right things to do, we still don't do those things and we still make bad decisions and we still repeat the old patterns of the past that keep landing us in trouble. 2 (11m 29s): And, you know, I, I can't speak, I I I actually don't follow anyone else who's doing the same thing. So I don't really know what other people are saying out there, but I know after 15 years of doing what I do, there's a, a depth that's emerged and, and it's what my, my, my biggest thing, the two missions that I have, if I were to really boil it down, is one, to help people feel less alone in the world. And I don't mean that by just finding them a relationship. I, I mean if we could just come together and talk about how much it hurts sometimes to have not found somebody or how much we're struggling, then I think that we can find community and, and you know, connection even without a relationship. 2 (12m 15s): But also to help people save their time. Because I've watched, I've watched men and women, but my audience is typically women. I've watched so many women spend so much of their lives in pain and then get to 50 or 60 and suddenly they are faced with not only beginning again because they struggled to get out of a truly Toxic relationship or a narcissistic relationship, but also having to grieve this huge amount of time that they feel like they lost while they were in those situations. 2 (12m 59s): And I help a lot of people like that. And so, and it makes me very sad and I want to, I want to empower people to make really great decisions along the way so that they can avoid getting to that point. And if they are at that point, I want to help them to, to move on in a powerful way and realize that it wasn't all wasted time. 0 (13m 17s): Yeah, that was a really interesting reframe that you did the last time we spoke when I was talking about my own parents divorce and I was like, well maybe this isn't a great example because they were married for whatever 15 years and you were like, that's still an accomplishment, you know, assuming that it was a healthy marriage, like that's still an accomplishment even though it did end in divorce. And I was like, that's a really interesting reframe because we do think if there's divorce at all, that it's automatically chalked up to, to a failure. Hey everyone, this is new. So we are taking a quick break for a couple of sponsors. How exciting is that, that we have a couple sponsors for the podcast? So this is new, please don't skip it, just listen, it's cool stuff, I promise. 0 (14m 0s): So my first one is a small company called Ragnar's Rocks and I'll make sure I have the link below. As you know, I love crystals and I get made fun of for it all of the time, but I'm, I'm not gonna change my ways and I'm gonna stand by it. I truly believe in them and I think that they're beautiful, so sue me. But he sent me, I mean how incredible is that? He sent me this beautiful amethyst, I've got this really cute rose quartz skull. All this is on my table, you can't see, but when I start doing two cameras, you'll be able to see my little setup and this cute little crystal Buddha, how adorable is he? I these bracelets are from there. 0 (14m 42s): I mean I was really stoked to have him as a sponsor because this is right up my alley. So if you're into any crystals or you just wanna check out the website, it's wagner's Rocks dot com and I'll link that below. And the last affiliate last sponsor, please don't skip, this one's a good one. So we all know the benefits of fasting. Well my husband and I have used this company Prolon actually a couple of times. So I was really excited that they wanted to be an affiliate of the podcast. So if you wanna try Prolon, it's a fasting mimicking diet. So you get all the benefits of a water fast and it's a lot easier cuz you get this delicious food instead of having to completely eat nothing. 0 (15m 22s): So you can try Prolon for $150 with the code. Candace, some of the claims for, and I mean I say claims, but I'm going off of a script guys, 60% of people that completed the fast had better energy, mental clarity and focus. You'll definitely shed some lbs. I felt a ton lighter after doing it. It's cool to do difficult stuff and obviously fasting is not easy, so it's kind of cool to see how you can kind of push it and get through something that you thought you might not be able to do. It's a lot easier than just doing a water cleanse. And again, like you, I think the average here, yeah, people lose an average of 5.7 pounds and 1.6 inches off of their waste line. 0 (16m 7s): So soon as I'm done breastfeeding, I'm doing one of these and Eric's supposed to be starting anytime now, so we'll see when he decides to start. So I'll link that below. Again, if you wanna try Prolon, you can try it for 150 bucks. Use code Candace, and let's return to the episode. I am curious when it comes to people that kind of seem to be self-sabotaging or picking these relationships that anyone else that's not in it can say like, that's clearly not a good magic. That person's clearly not treating you well, that cl person's clearly not going to commit. Like where is that, where is that kind of stemming from? Is it that old adage that we tend to find partners that, that remind us of our parent and then we're trying to like heal that and fix that person, which gets back into can we even fix people because I'm a hard no on that. 0 (16m 59s): That's my my belief. I'm gonna, I'm guessing you're probably gonna be somewhere in alignment with me on that, but why do we seek out people that we do know on some level maybe just not consciously are not for us? 2 (17m 13s): Yeah, that's a great question. Well I think that your, your feeling on whether we should expect people to change is right for the very reason that it's a bad bet. It's not that, it's not that people never changed pe you know, if, if, if I truly believed people never changed what is the point in my career, but, but believing that someone has shown you a consistent pattern for a long time is one day gonna suddenly change is really deeply misguided and it's extremely dangerous. 2 (17m 54s): You can run out the clock on your entire life waiting for that to happen. So it's just a bad bet and it's not a bet that anyone should make the why. People tend to ignore what seems so obvious to everyone else around them. It, it's a, is a really interesting question. There is undeniably an element or a huge element of the past in there. I like to think of it a little bit in terms of confidence but also in terms of familiarity. I'll start with confidence. Often people will say, if you loved yourself more, you wouldn't accept that. You know, if you really connected with your own worth and your own value, you wouldn't accept that. 2 (18m 37s): And there's truth to that. That's a, that's a real thing. And and it's that's right. If someone knows that they are worthy of being treated with respect, I'm not saying someone knows they're worthy of having the best in life, always, like I'm saying, if someone knows that they're worthy of decency, that they are worthy of respect, that they are worthy of kindness and being treated in, in a human way, then when someone comes along and doesn't give them those things, doesn't give them what should be very fundamental things to, to want from somebody. And we have to decide what those fundamental things are for us. 2 (19m 20s): Because if we don't go in knowing those things, then someone else gets to make those up for us. And that's a really dangerous thing. So we have to go into a situation, it's like any, it's like a business deal. You have to go into a business deal knowing the kind of work that you want to do and the kind of things you don't want to do and what you are actually driving towards. Otherwise you're sitting across the table from someone who can kind of convince you to do anything. So you have to know that going in and the same is true of a relationship. And then you have to build the, you have to have a love for yourself, which I almost think love sometimes can be a misleading word when it comes to confidence because it's, we, it's, I think it can seem like such a difficult thing to like w to love myself, but I I almost prefer to start with, with people from a place of saying what's, think of yourself like you are just a person in the world, right? 2 (20m 21s): Like you, if I if you saw someone being tortured in front of you, it would give you a reaction. You would think that was awful and you would want to help you, you would, you know, you would not wanna see that person in pain because there's a, you're most people are genuinely, are generally pretty empathetic and kind and decent and they don't wanna see that happen to somebody. Well now imagine that you are a person and by the way, you don't have to imagine it. You are, you are a person in the world and if you can start by just saying I'm a person like anyone else, the one big difference is that I have the job of looking after this person. 2 (21m 3s): That's, that's my biggest job that I have is to, I've been given custody of this one human being from the day I was born. And my job has been to take care of that person. If you frame it like that, you don't think of it so much, you don't have to think of it in terms of really loving yourself. Cuz sometimes we're doing things that we don't like and we're behaving in ways we don't like, or we're doing things in life that don't make us proud and that makes it hard. We find it hard to love ourselves when we're not making ourselves proud. But you cannot be proud of yourself right now and still see yourself as a person who's, your job is to take care of that person. 2 (21m 46s): You have to love yourself like it's your job because it is your job. So that's one part of the equation. But I don't think just framing it in terms of confidence is, is complete. I think you also have to look at it in terms of familiarity. What are you used to? Many of us have only seen a certain thing in our lives growing up and that has become our model for the world. And if you grew up learning that you can't trust people based on your experience growing up, then it's, that's not a confidence issue necessarily. 2 (22m 32s): It's a familiarity issue. That's what you know, and it's hard to step outside of what you know, that's a really difficult thing. What might seem obvious to somebody else is absolutely not obvious to you if that's what you've known in the most important relationships of your life. So the same is true if you had parents who cheated on each other and that's what you knew, or you had, you were treated by a parent, like your needs didn't matter and that anytime you asked for something, it would get you in trouble. So you can go into the world now thinking that that is a normal thing. 2 (23m 17s): So it's really important not to be too hard on ourselves if we're finding it hard to grasp something that seems obvious or easy to other people and it's not obvious or easy to us, there's a good reason for that. If this in the most impressionable time of our lives, and that doesn't just mean parents, it could be a, you know, a very formative relationship you had early on in your life. If that's what you grew to know, then this isn't just you hate yourself and that's why you're allowing all of this to happen. No, it's, it's also that's the world, the world plays by those rules in the world that you came up in. 2 (23m 57s): I, I had a, a friend who her first, her first boyfriend treated her really, really badly. And the second boyfriend, she had treated her the complete opposite in the first couple of months. He was so kind, so nice to her, so patient and she did not know how to handle it because it wasn't, it was alien to her. And she went to her mom and she said, I mom, I don't get it. He's like, he's really nice to me. And sh his, her mom said to her, that's how it's supposed to be. If we're not used to it, then that represents a monumental shift for us. So I want to, you know, we can talk about what it might mean to shift that and how to do it, but perhaps we'll stop talking for a moment. 0 (24m 43s): No, no, that's, that's really fascinating because I've also heard for people that have kind of grown up in chaos in whatever way that looked, whether it was abuse or instability, whether you're moving a lot switching schools, there's big divorce, like those kinds of things. If that happens a lot throughout your upbringing, then when you're in a romantic relationship that peace can feel like boredom. So sometimes you are in a beautiful relationship, but you're not getting that rush because everything is where it's supposed to be. Like this is homeostasis, but you can't appreciate it because almost like, I don't know if you're into Joe dispenser or anything like that, but you kind of get addicted to your neuro, your neurochemistry. 0 (25m 25s): So if you have all of that chaos happening or you're constantly in this fight or flight, then those pathways get so deep that that's just a habit. Like you get into an emotional habit and it's the same for your partner because it's like that, like attracts like, and then round and round we go, 2 (25m 41s): Yeah, it's scary, it's really scary. You know, you, you get addict, we get addicted to these cycles that cause us so much pain. And you're right, you know, if you've been used to living in chaos, if you're used to, if you've been operating in high stress for a long time, you don't know how to operate out of high stress, it doesn't, that feels like an alien environment to you. And you know, I, I really believe in, I think sometimes we have to look at people who we look up to or people whose lives we feel like, you know, they've figured something out. There's something in the way this person lives or operates or their energy that is, is like something I want to be and try to correlate what you see between those different, different people who are like that. 2 (26m 33s): Try and ask yourself like, what do these people have in common? And you do find commonalities. That's the, that I think is the reassuring thing is, is you do find that people who have achieved a level of peace in their life, they have things in common, even if they're completely different people between their routines, how they live, what they value. There is a, you know, it's like, why is it that you see so many people who do achieve a kind of peace in their lives that over time they seem to change their relationship with alcohol or eating or recreational drugs. 2 (27m 15s): It's like there's a, there seems to be an evolution that happens there. That's a very common one for people. And I, I don't say that with any righteousness or judgment, people are at all different stages of life in what they're doing. But, but you have to acknowledge that there is a pattern between people. And I like to look for those patterns. I'm always, I was sat in a room a couple of weeks ago with some amazing people, a mastermind, and there were all sorts of different people who had achieved an awful lot, not just in, in terms of their external success, but in terms of who they were as people and their families. And when I'm in a room like that, I observe everything because I just wanna know like what do they, what do these people have in common? 2 (28m 1s): Like do they have, do they have kids? Don't they have kids? Do they, you know, how much time do they generally spend exercising? What's their outlook on some of these more hedonistic things? What's the like, I wanna know those things. What's their relationship with spikes? You know, because in, in a way, what you're talking about is the spikes, right? When someone is like looking for that constant jolt of Excitement in a relationship, they're looking for the spikes, they're living for the spikes. And that's true in every area of life, by the way. I mean, I I, my, my vice that I struggle with to this day that I've had to really try to work with is food. 2 (28m 41s): I'm, I, I look for those spikes when it comes to food. And I've had to really try to work on not just my relationship with food, but my relationship with the spikes because I know that's kind of what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that thing that's gonna excite me, that's gonna take me somewhere that, and and it's not, I still wanna maintain my love for food, but I wanna break my addiction to the spikes when it comes to, to food. And in, you don't have to lose your desire to find a passionate relationship to realize that those spikes that maybe you grew up with, that also were followed by these corresponding lows, by these horrible, you know, I'm in a passionate relationship where we fight and then we have the best sex ever and then we fight again. 2 (29m 36s): And it, you know, there's those lows that, and the dangerous thing, by the way, way about those lows is they make the highs seem artificially high. So because you've argued with, because this person makes your life a misery because they make you anxious because they make you never feel safe and never truly feel loved and secure when they give you just a morsel of that, you, you are like, you are like, your body just soaks it up immediately and it feels amazing. It feels kind of like this release because you felt so bad the hour before that, that by contrast, this feels amazing. And I sometimes think that our, a lot of our problems in life would change if we could learn that it's, it's better to experience life at a seven or an eight out of 10 and keep working on notching that up in sustainable ways than living for like a a 12 moment that then drops to a three and then jumps up again. 2 (30m 41s): And, and I think you can apply that to all of life, not just dating 0 (30m 45s): No 100%. That's gotta be exhausting even physically and mentally emotionally. That has to be exhausting to just keep up with all of those massive swings because you have to feel depleted when you're in the bottom. So that does make sense that all of a sudden when you're given anything, you're like, whoa, this is amazing because you just want some relief from that bottom. 2 (31m 3s): And I think a lot of people confuse Excitement with anxiety. I think the two are very closely linked in dating and I think a lot of people think they have this amazing attraction, but it, it's like, it's kind of 50, 60, 70, 80% of it is just their anxiety that they feel like they haven't quite got this person. 0 (31m 22s): No 100%. And they're actually the way that some schools, so our kid goes to a Montessori school and this is something that they touch on, especially with the, the little ones that are just entering is they say that for them, their brain doesn't really know the difference between anxi, Anxiety and Excitement. So when you, it's like their first day of school, you don't hype them up the next, the night before. You're not like, oh my gosh, you're going to school tomorrow, it's gonna be so exciting, you're gonna have so much fun and you make this big emotional event out of it because that becomes overwhelming and then drop off is impossible. So you want to introduce things like very calmly and very neutral for the most part, especially when they're so young because of that crossover. 0 (32m 2s): Like they just, they can't compute. So we try to say energized instead of excited so that maybe it gives it a little bit more of like a positive, you know, n l p effect. But we just, it's a matter of fact like, oh we're gonna go on an airplane today, not like we're going on a trip. So again, it makes sense. I always re I'm in that stage of life so I relate everything to toddlers and I'm like, it makes a lot of sense. And then it, it's just easier to break down. It's, it, it simplifies a lot of it. 2 (32m 31s): That's so interesting, that thing about the kids and not getting them so amped up if the day before the, the, the first day of school because I, I think that it did used to, when when I would go through things like that and people would be like, you're gonna, you know, it's like it does, it gets you, it gets you nervous and it gets you anxious and suddenly you, you now go into that thing kind of with this energy that maybe is not helpful. So that's, that's really interesting. 0 (33m 0s): Yeah, there was another quote and it was, it said anxiety is Excitement without the breathing too. So ah, so if you're feeling anxious, it's to get control over your breath and then you can shift it from anxiety to being energized or to being excited, whatever word do you wanna wanna use. But I was like, that helps me a ton because there are times where I am very excited whether I'm gonna be on someone's show or I'm doing an event and I just feel overwhelmed. I'm not breathing, I'm not conscious of my breathing cuz I'm hypervigilant about everything else. So now if I can go and correct my breath then I can go into like a calmer, calmer, calmer state. 2 (33m 40s): I'm, I'm such a huge believer in that what you just said when I I I do, one of my hobbies is Brazilian juujitsu and when you fight with people, especially when you're inexperienced, you, you roll for two minutes on the mat with someone and you can't breathe, you feel like you're drowning. And I remember one of the first times I did it, my coach, he kind of joked with me and said, by the way, like when I roll with other black belts, sometimes we just set the clock for an hour and we'll just roll and just do this for an hour. And I, in my head I was like, how do you, how do you do that? 2 (34m 23s): How is that even physically possible? I can't, I feel like I'm a decently fit person and after two minutes I couldn't breathe. And he said, that's cuz you're not breathing, that's cuz you're going into it with that adrenaline holding your breath and it's not your fitness that's failing you, it's your breathing. He said, when you know that you are rolling for an hour and five minutes in, you look up at the clock and you've got another 55 minutes on the clock. He said, there is this feeling that this thing that kicks in where you just go, well I may as well just settle in because surrender, it's gonna suck for a while. So instead of going in with that anxiety and that adrenaline, you just start to breathe differently because you settle in. 2 (35m 9s): And I think that it makes me, it made me think of when people are early in the dating phase, they find someone that they go on a date with, they really like this person. They've decided already how wonderful this person is after two hours on a date and they go home and then the stakes feel really, really high and they want everything to go perfectly and they now have this anxiety that do I text them? Do I not text them them I just texted them and it's three hours have gone by and they haven't texted me back. And that anxiety just like permeates everything in those early stages when I'm helping people to overcome their anxiety in that stage, I give them the same advice that hey look if this person is actually gonna be your person then you're gonna be doing this with them for a very long time. 2 (36m 3s): So, and this way this holding your breath you're doing right now, you can't maintain that is gonna be horrible. So if you know if this is the right person, you're gonna be doing this for a long time, for many years, potentially settle in like you may as well breathe and settle in. And when people hear it like that, it changes the rhythm of it because they go, oh yeah, if it's wrong it's gonna last five minutes. If it's right, it's gonna last a long time and if it's gonna last a long time, I can't hold my breath the whole time. I have to actually settle in and have an energy that I could have for many years. 2 (36m 42s): Not an energy that makes me feel exhausted and depressed and depleted after one week. 0 (36m 49s): Yeah, just to throw another quote, it's a Buddhist quote and it, when you find your person and we can get into like is there a per, like your person is there only one person when you find your person or someone that is a proper match, your soul is at peace, like you don't feel those butterflies and all of that crazy anxiety or Excitement, it's just like, oh I found you. And I don't know, it could just be, you know, my own confirmation bias. But when I met my husband it was unlike anyone else that I had met. It was that just there was no anxiety. I was just like, oh there you are kind of a thing. And I even told my girlfriends from the very beginning, I was like, I'm, this is a guy I'm gonna marry. 0 (37m 33s): And they're like, no, you just got out of a relationship. This is clearly gonna be a rebound. And I was like this, it feels different. Like I just feels different. And he's just kind of, that's been the theme of our relationship is just providing that certainty for me. So I don't know if it's confirmation bias, I don't know if you've experienced that with your relationships, if you find more of like this peaceful energy with some people versus that anxiety because there was never this, is he gonna text me? Am I gonna text him? Like he alwa he always made the first move and I never was worried or am I playing this game, wait three days, whatever this is, I have girlfriends now that are like, do I text back? I was like, yes. Text back. 0 (38m 13s): You, you wanna see him, you wanna talk just text. If you are waiting, then he's going to wait and then you guys create this weird chick game of chicken and no one knows how the other person feels. And then if he's turned off because you show interest, that means he's not interested. 2 (38m 27s): Yeah, you, you, you, you literally, you you perpetuate the exact pattern that you are trying to eradicate that you say you don't want. And it's a really, it's a crazy thing cuz it we, we do bring on the thing we don't want by doing that. It's almost like you, you have to intercept that and say, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go at a pace that feels right to me. I'm going to be authentic. I'm going to reach out to someone and tell them to have a great day today if I feel like doing that, but, and I'm not gonna sit there constantly fearing are they gonna meet me there or not. 2 (39m 14s): It's almost like you have to have that standard. It's a standard, right? It's a standard. The same way ki like kindness and generosity is a standard. You don't, it doesn't go out of the window simply because you come across someone today that's in a bad place or they're, they're moody with you. You don't, if if you are, if you suddenly become a different person then it wasn't a standard that you had. And in dating it has to be a standard. Now the important thing about that is that you, if you notice that someone isn't meeting you at your standard for communication, then you can decide to move away from that person. 2 (39m 58s): But you don't change. You know, there, there was, I remember once, I was living in New York at the time and me and a friend of mine, we invited someone to dinner who we both liked, but they were a bit of an acquaintance at the time. They weren't, I wouldn't necessarily call them a friend, but we were like, it would be fun to bring them more into the circle. And, and I remember it was like 10 minutes before the dinner, this person in a what felt like a very rude way, just sort of said, Hey, sorry guys, I can't actually make it tonight. I'll, I'll have to see you another time. And never said sorry, never really never like didn't say sorry that you had arranged this whole thing. 2 (40m 40s): And like it was very, it was immediately this behavior that got my backup. And my friend who was sitting next to me, she said to me at the time, something that always stuck with me. She said, don't like you don't, don't worry about it, don't get angry. We just know where to put that person. And that that was like a standard. It wasn't, you know, this person did something to upset us and now there's all this energy behind how we feel and no, it's just, oh, okay, we, we tried to reach out to this person and, and bring them into our circle and connect with them and form a deeper relationship. 2 (41m 23s): And this person very flippantly, sort of bailed at the last minute and never apologized for it. We just know where to put them now. That's okay. It wasn't vindictive, it was just, oh, arm's length. And, and we have to start seeing people in dating like that instead of we have a standard and then they don't meet that standard and then we say, what else could I do to get them to meet this standard or what? It's, it's life is much easier if you accept where people are in their process, in their journey, where they are in life, what phase they're in, what they want right now. And you just go, oh, okay, well this is my standard. They're not meeting me there so I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull back. 2 (42m 6s): And that person may now come to you and say, Hey, why'd you pull back like I wanna see you this Saturday And at that point you have the right to explain why you pulled back. Well I was really excited to see you and I felt like I was kind of texting you and stuff, but I didn't really feel like you were there with me. And it made me, it made me withdraw if I'm honest. There's nothing, there's no games about that. It's just this is how, this is what I was prepared to give in that moment. I thought, it seemed to me you weren't prepared to give the same, A nice phrase to use by the way is rightly or wrongly, you can say rightly or wrongly, it, it felt like you're not prepared to, you weren't in the same place as me. 2 (42m 51s): And that takes ego out of it cuz now that person can say, oh no, you're totally wrong about that. I am in the site, sorry I had a crazy week and this and that. Let me make it up to you. Or you know, I would love to see you this Saturday and so you are leaving the door open for someone to be better, but you are also making quite clear that there's a standard you have that that person isn't living up to. And I, when people say if it, there's a kind of phrase people use a lot, which is if it's right it'll be easy. And I think that's an overly simplistic phrase. I think that there's plenty of relationships that last that have messy beginnings. 2 (43m 31s): But the key is when you demonstrate who you are and what your standard is to somebody, albeit in a compassionate and you know, warm way, are they able to correct course, a course correct? Are they able to progress? Do you now feel a progression in the momentum or the investment or the energy as a result of that? And I don't mean a progression for one night where suddenly they now put in a bunch of attention energy because they really wanna see you to hook up this Saturday. I mean, you know, don't, don't hook up with them on Saturday. 2 (44m 11s): Go watch a movie, go to a restaurant, go hang out, but don't do like, take your time with it and see if there is a, a progression in the way this person is trying to get to know you and what they're trying to invest in. Are they coming to your side of town instead of always asking you to come to their side of town? Are they like, what are you, are you seeing a progression? And that part should start to get easier once you demonstrate your standard, that's where you should start to see momentum if it has the potential to actually be what you want. The hard thing to watch is when someone shows a standard, that person continues to resist and then that per, they continue to say, what can I do now? 2 (44m 59s): What's the next thing I should do? How do I get them to think of me? Like that's the part where you start to get into really dangerous territory because you're not actually paying attention to what's going on. 0 (45m 11s): Oh man. So there's a couple things, have you heard that Steve Harvey quote where it's essentially like Can, Men Change and like the example that gets tossed around a lot is cheating or maybe it's how he's treating you, whatever it is. And then he's like, yeah, men change but they change for one woman. So it's like if you are not seeing that change or that progress then it's not gonna happen. And I think that you kind of have to be able to see and like take a proper gauge as to when do I put in the work and when do I have to say that this isn't the relationship and leave. 0 (45m 52s): And for some of us it's like there's this sunk cost fallacy where I've been in for five years, so now I don't wanna start over with someone else, so I'm just gonna accept this mediocre relationship or this relationship that's not honoring my needs. Especially for women. Cuz I mean biology is real. We technology hasn't caught up to where we can have kids forever at any age. So if that's something that matters, that's an extra worry that we have to kind of keep in the back of our minds when we're trying to find a partner. And one of the worst things that I've seen time and time again, it's these women that do want children with men that are like, well I don't, I know I want them, it's just not now. 0 (46m 35s): And they keep saying just not now and you're not seeing the progress. And these women are just year after year after year getting older and older and older and not anywhere closer to having a family. But they are so in love with this man or this idea of this man that they're unbeknownst to them giving up on the future that they actually want, which is devastating, but it comes down to also extreme accountability. So they're also in that relationship by choice. So by as a bystander, that's really difficult to see. So yeah, I think progress is an excellent metric to make sure that, you know, it's going in the direction that you want it to go in before it's too late cuz there is a too late if you do want children. 0 (47m 19s): Like that's just unfortunately the way the world works. 2 (47m 22s): Yeah, and and I've seen the, I've seen the emotional devastation time and time again that that causes, when people ignore that reality and the, you know, what happens a lot in the situation you described and what happens a lot in general in dating is when someone really likes somebody else or loves them, they often co-opt the excuse of that person and start to the, the r rationale of that person about what they want or don't want takes on the royal we, so now you have a, let's say a guy who says, I just am trying to be carefree right now and I dunno what I want. 2 (48m 9s): I'm just having fun. I'm just seeing what happens. I don't wanna put a label on things. Then when a woman's Chatting with her friends and they say, how's it going with that guy? She says, you know, we are just seeing how it goes and we're just kind of not trying to put a label on it. We're just having fun right now. And it's like, it's funny you inserted, we in there, you know, because five minutes ago you wanted something different, but in order to stay in rapport with this person, you've now adopted their excuse, their rationale, their logic as your own. And that's a very dangerous thing people do. You have to really tap into what it is is important to you and what you want. 2 (48m 51s): It goes back to what we talked about earlier about having your vision on the way in, having your standards on the way in for what you want, because otherwise you will get distracted by whatever shiny thing comes along. A attractive person that you have chemistry with will be grossly overvalued when actually, if you were really tuned in to what you want. If you know, I'm at a stage in my life where having a family is really important to me and having the kind of person in my life who is excited to build something that's like, that's, that's just the most important thing. 2 (49m 34s): Yes, they have to have the qualities that I'm looking for in a human being, but I need someone who's in a place in their life where they're excited to build. And it doesn't have to be, they don't need to be convinced that it's me yet that on a first date, but I do want someone who's in that place where that's what they're looking for. Well, if in the first two months you get a sense from this person that there is absolutely no intentionality about their dating whatsoever, you know, they think it's, they think it's more weird that we would walk down the street hold ha holding hands than it is that we sleep together tonight. 2 (50m 16s): Then, then it's like, oh, okay, like you are, you're in a different mindset than I am and it doesn't matter how much chemistry I have with you or how exciting I find you, you are a left turn that's gonna distract me from what I'm actually looking for. But you can only do that, you can only say that to yourself and to another person if you've been honest with yourself about what you're looking for. And that's why I always say to people, your our lives get better in direct proportion to the number of difficult conversations we are willing to have. And that's not just with other people, but with ourselves. 2 (50m 59s): Have you had the challenging conversation with yourself where you ask yourself, what am I actually looking for right now? What do I want in my life if I know that having a family, having children of my own biologically is important to me? And I know that if in 10 years or 15 years that hasn't happened, that is something that is gonna, I'm gonna have to grieve that in a very serious way because it's that important to me. Well then you have to say to yourself, how much importance am I treating this with right now? If it's that important, how important is it? 2 (51m 41s): Does it look based on my actions? Am I, you know, do, am I going to check my fertility to know that that's a possibility for me so that I'm not kind of burying my head in the sand? Maybe there's something I should know now that I don't know right now. Like, let's go find out. Do, do I want to consider egg freezing? Is that something that I actually wanna look into seriously to release a little bit of pressure? Do I want to get, tell this person that's been messing me around for two years and there's been no progress that I'm done? Like what, what would I do differently if that thing that I say is the most important thing for my future was actu if the importance of that was actually reflected in my actions today and the way that I approach this part of my life. 0 (52m 33s): Yeah. That, that's a very real hurdle for a lot of people. It's that level of intimacy even with yourself and that connection with even just your, your own thoughts and your own goals. It's almost like if I say them out loud, even in my mind, then if I don't get it, then that, that's so scary. So I would rather run away and pretend I don't want it. So if I don't get it, it's not a big deal because I never really wanted it in the first place. But you have to have that radical honesty with yourself and kind of stick to it. It's very easy to let someone kind of put you off kilter if you are super passionate and the sex is great or he is super handsome or maybe he's really wealthy, like whatever you're justifying giving up on your own dreams for. 0 (53m 22s): So it's an uncomfortable talk because if you're super into somebody and you're like, listen, these are the things that I need from my future, I need to get married. Like that means something to me. Some people it doesn't, right? I need to have children. Maybe you don't like just, I wanna live here, these are my beliefs, this is my spiritual practice. Like all of these things that make you fundamentally who you are, you need to be able to blend a life together with somebody. So if you don't have those difficult conversations, they're gonna come out sooner or later where you, where there's a misalignment. So it's better, I think, to know right away than down the road. I've always 2 (53m 59s): Been, by the way, apologies for example. Oh no, go ahead. I was just gonna say that, that people who just want to use you for their own ends, and I'm, I don't even mean that in like they're terrible evil people. I just mean people who are in a selfish place or they're just trying to get theirs. Whether that's, they want your attention, they want your intimacy, they want your company, they typically rely on you being disconnected from your goals and what you really want for yourself because that's how, if you are already off balance, then it's, you're easy to influence and I can give you the puppy eyes and be like, bye, I wanna see you tonight. 2 (54m 43s): And you'll probably be like, oh, okay. You know, like that's because I'm playing on the fact that you're disconnected from what you really want and what's best for you. And so you cannot ever rely on someone else doing what's right by you. You have to do what's right by you and teach someone else how to do what's right by you, by what you accept and, and what you don't accept. You cannot expect someone to, to do that for you. So that's a, that's a a big, big thing. And I, I hope everyone hears this section because I, I've really, I'm very passionate about this and, and I've seen a lot of people who get very, very hurt by being distracted from the things that are actually really important to them. 2 (55m 31s): And this isn't, I, I want everyone to realize, like, I, I don't, I don't come from a prudish place at all. I don't come from a righteous place at all. I don't, I, I have no religious agenda with anything I do. I don't like, for me, I just want people to be happy and I can, I think we should all recognize like, yeah, there's some, that thing, that person you just met who's inviting you to their place five days from now and they're exciting and they're sexy and yeah, it's fun. Like that's fun. That's fun to meet someone sexy and exciting and it's fun to go and, you know, have sex with that person. 2 (56m 15s): If you are in that mindset and you know it's pizza, like pizza's delicious, but you have to know what place, what's my actual goal here? Because pizza will always be a thing, it will always be this delicious thing that you could gravitate towards. But you have to know what's actually important to me because truly tapping into that w will make that person in front of you seem at minimum, like something that's worth saying no to, even though it's exciting. But you may even find that once you get really excited about where you want to go, that person starts to become a little less exciting. 0 (56m 58s): Yeah, it's a scary exercise, but it's absolutely worth it. And, and kind of crucial honestly. Do you ever see the opposite? Like, do you have women coming to you that are in long-term relationships where they've lost the pizza or they're like, how do I, how I lost the Spark? You see this a lot with couples, so you might be a great match with somebody and you have a flood of neurochemicals in the beginning, and I wanna say it usually tapers off around like seven months. Is that the number? So like you're, all of this dopamine is going through you and you're like, this is, it's like that honeymoon phase and there's this one book by Jamie Wheel and he kind of gets into the neurochemistry of falling in love, but at some point that's going to taper off. 0 (57m 45s): So how do you have that, where's the trade off? I guess because that's where some people start to cheat or when some people start to end the relationship because they're like, well, I'm not, I fell out of love is what they think as I fell out of love cuz I don't have those feelings. And Esther Perel does a good job at kind of explaining the difference between like a love story and a life story. And it's, which one of those things do you want? A love story is passionate, it's hot, it's sweaty, it's exciting, it's all of these things, but a love story. You know, you have to do the dishes and you have to take out the trash and maybe you got into a fight and maybe you haven't had sex in a month and you're trying to reconnect that intimacy. It's got both of those things, those highs and lows to the relationship. 0 (58m 26s): And for some reason, well not for some reason, for an obvious reason. It's, you only want, you only want the Spark. So how do you kind of artificially mimic that response to be able to get back into the beginning stages of your relationship? 2 (58m 42s): What a great question. I esta Esta puts it in, in a really beautiful way when she says How, do you continue to want that which you already have? And it goes to the heart of, you know what she talks about the duality of love and desire and love is the, the coming together of two people. It's like a union and, and desire needs space. So if you have this union and you have no space anymore, then desire gets suffocated. So I think On a basic level, it's worth asking the question in any relationship, what's our ratio of sort of loving acts versus acts that might create desire. 2 (59m 30s): And I think there are a number of ways to approach that. You know, the, the cosmo, the Cosmo way of approaching it is learn three new sex moves. You know, it's like buy this new toy to, you know, get back your sex life. But the, the truth is often the often the way there is more indirect than that. It doesn't, it's not so on the nose there's a, there's a writer, John k, who wrote a book called obl, which was the idea that results are often best achieved indirectly. And when I think of how to bring desire back, a lot of the time my mind doesn't even go to the bedroom. 2 (1h 0m 13s): My mind goes to, what are you doing? The prust said, the journey of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes, but in seeing with new eyes. Well what you described in the way a lot of people approach that Excitement in their love lives is, I've lost that Spark, I need to seek a new landscape. If we start turning the question towards how do I start to see with new eyes what could help me to do that, then that's a, that's an interesting question. Is it that me and my partner frankly need a little more space than we are getting from each other? 2 (1h 0m 57s): Like, how come to think of it, when was the last time I encouraged my partner to go out with his boys? Or I encourage my partner to go out with her girls? Like, when did I last do that? When did I last see them leave the house looking sexy? And I wasn't there. Like that's an interesting one because that's that feeling we used to maybe get in early dating, now we're always there. But it's that very thing sometimes I, sometimes I actually think people need to live like a little more dangerously. They need to be prepared to, to live a little more on the edge. That thing that you don't, you want to control your partner and you don't want them to go and have any fun without you and you don't, but that might be what you need in order to, to get excited again or to see them as someone separate from you. 2 (1h 1m 44s): I think a lot of the problem is that we think we know everything about our partner. We think that we've sussed them out. We, they're like this Rubik's cube where all the colors are now on the same, on the right side. And we're like, well I finished it but, and so we're not playing with it anymore. But you know, what if the colors weren't all on? What if you hadn't got all the colors on the s on the sides? What if there's that part of them that you still didn't know about? Or what if they're still growing? And of course what you can do as the partner in that equation to help that is grow, change, evolve, go do that class that you've been wanting to do that you've been putting off for years or you've always said go actually do that thing. 2 (1h 2m 28s): It'll give you time apart and it'll also add something to your bow that they're not used to go. You know, I think anything that can help us start to see our partner as someone that we haven't just figured out everything about. And you realize that, you know, as Esther says, you, you, some people, we're all gonna have many relationships. It's just some of us are gonna have them with the same person. Right? Well what are you doing to to actually get out of your comfort zone and bring about a new relationship with this person? I, I think those are all in, and and of course there's, there's a a, the sexual aspect is a component. 2 (1h 3m 10s): We should look at that and go, well are there things that you can do that your partner would want you to do more? Are you listening to what would actually get them going and taking initiative there and owning the fact that there are clues along the way as to what would really excite them. And maybe you haven't been listening or you've been too apathetic to actually do those things or to bring those things into the bedroom or the foreplay. And I, it's, you know, that's true of everybody. So that's one component of it. But ultimately it's, to me it's all part of the same thing is how can I get my partner to see me with fresh eyes again and how can I see them with fresh eyes again? 2 (1h 3m 52s): And then the last thing I'll say on this that I think is a also just a pressure valve for everything I've just said, cuz I know everything I've just said sounds like an awful lot of work for people. I think that the pressure valve for that is also recognizing that what we're talking about here is not the fault of your partner. It is the fault of us as human beings. We, we are looking for the next problem to solve. We are looking for the next height to get to the next thing to optimize the next thing to, and, and when we're in a relationship, if the Excitement goes down, we can quickly get into this idea that it would be more exciting if we'd chosen a different person and it maybe it would've remained exciting longer if I'd chosen this person or that person. 2 (1h 4m 48s): And I think very often that's not the case. Very often what you're experiencing is a very normal thing that happens with familiarity. And when we realize that, that no one is mysterious to the people that actually know them, you know, pick your favorite celebrity that you think is mystical and mysterious. You know, pick the favorite dead celebrity that you were like there was so much mystery about them. Pick Prince, you know, like Prince wasn't mysterious to his best mate. It's like he, he was just a person you know, who took showers and was grumpy in the morning or this or that. 2 (1h 5m 30s): Like he's not prince to the person who literally sees him every day. He's prince to the rest of us because there's that distance. And so I think that we can buy into this idea that there are these ultra perpetually sexy, mysterious people in life. And that, you know, if I am now lacking Excitement in my relationship, does that mean that I just didn't get one of them? And it's not the case, it's the, what's more the case is that if that person you just looked at in the street or in the bar that gave you that little bit of like, ooh that person looks sexy and exciting. 2 (1h 6m 11s): If you got close to them, as close to them as you are to your partner, the same thing would happen with them. So instead of trying to solve an unsolvable game that way, focus on how to solve the, you know, how to bring more of that into your existing relationship cuz it's, it's not going away. 0 (1h 6m 35s): Yeah, I think the point of doing living more dangerously or doing things that are uncomfortable, especially together is huge. That's something that always kind of reinvigorates my marriage and my relationship is we try to do like different summits or different like growth opportunities together. Like this year we're doing, have you ever heard of like that fit for service with Aubrey Marcus? 2 (1h 7m 0s): So we're, yeah, Aubrey's a friend of mine. 0 (1h 7m 2s): Oh, okay. Yeah, we're doing that this year. So amazing. It's like three 2 (1h 7m 5s): Summits. I spoke at his fit for service event literally at the beginning of last year. 0 (1h 7m 10s): Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm super excited and like through that, like you meet all of these other people and there's these exercises that you have to do together and like even little things like setting up a little altar of, you know, your mission for the year and then you can compare and contrast and be like, oh, I didn't know that was something you, you were working on. It kind of forces you to go super deep as far as an Intimate level. Like you would think after a decade with somebody that you would know everything about them. But there's still so much more to be discovered and kind of even in some terms, especially when you've been together that long repair and it's like you, again, you might think that you have this Rubik's cube figured out, but then if you actually listen and take yourself out of it and just focus on your partner and hear them out truly, you'll be like, I didn't know, you know, that you wanted these things that you felt this way. 0 (1h 8m 3s): And I think that shows up too in the bedroom. It's like, how often are we just like going through through the motions? Like we now have everything kind of planned out like a synchronized dance and we know exactly when I'm gonna turn over, when I'm gonna do that, when you're gonna finish, when I'm gonna finish. Like it's just, you just kind of autopilot through it and it's like, if you can kind of get yourself off of that autopilot and truly connect, whether it's, you know, really looking them in the eyes and you might realize, holy shit, I haven't done that in a long time. Or like, being super present in your body so you can actually feel, move a different way that you haven't moved and just like get yourself off of that. You'll be like, whoa, this is an entirely different experience. 2 (1h 8m 46s): I couldn't agree more with that. I think that we, things can become so ritualistic as to that, you know, lose any sense of, of that mystery, of that Excitement, of that spontaneity. I I, I think that a lot when people, I remember speaking to someone who, when we were talking, I was talking on a show about sex and this person was talking about when you're not, when you're not, you know how to keep that passion. And she said something that I didn't disagree, I didn't think it was like a bad idea, but she talked about, you know, breathing with your partner and you know, she was like, if you really wanna connect with them, wouldn't you just lay with them and breathe together? 2 (1h 9m 33s): And, and I was like, well that's one thing, but that's, you know, that might be your version of what's gonna get you connected or what might be exciting. It's just as likely that if, let's say for you sex is always about like this foreplay and for him it could be really fun if the next time he gets out of the shower you walk straight up to him and do something really, really sexy that if he's not used to that, if that breaks the pattern of what you would normally do, then that can be really profound. I sometimes think that we've, we've decided what sex has to be and the way it has to go and the way we have to get there. 2 (1h 10m 14s): And when that becomes that formulated, it can be a real, it can be a real barrier. The, I think what's interesting about the fit for service thing is so, and like one aspect of that you said is you'll get to know each other in new ways because you are asked to do exercises that will force you to reveal new things about yourself. It's also true that there's a value to the two of you just going and being in a place where there's, you know, other people and there's gonna be some sexy people there. And you get to look at some sexy people looking at him going, you know, you can see like they think he's cute or they're laughing at his jokes. 2 (1h 10m 60s): He gets to see you holding court with a group of sexy people and there's like, you know, like there's that feeling of you get to see your partner through the eyes of someone else again. 0 (1h 11m 11s): Mm. Yeah. 2 (1h 11m 12s): And that's really powerful that we, we don't, I don't think we do that enough, especially as people get older and they get kind of, you know, hermetic in their ways. We don't go out as much. We get into our routines of, of being at home together and we forget what our partner is out in the world to everybody else. We, we don't see them in that setting as much. I think that it's really sexy when you can see your partner doing like holding court and you are not there. You are kind of watching from a distance and you get to just observe them almost like they're a stranger again. 0 (1h 11m 51s): How have you gotten to a place like that? Cuz I agree. I'm like, yeah cuz he's going home with me. You know, these mine and my husband's in the same, the same framework. So how do you appreciate it? How do you get the mindset of appreciating something like that versus being overwhelmed with Jealousy and, and territorial. Like you have to go over there and metaphorically pee on her to establish dominance. That is mine back away. I am the alpha male. How do you get, because this is the way that you look at it, the way that my husband looks at it, the way that a lot of men like healthy men in my perspective look at it is like playful. It's playful, it's light, it's a little bit sexy. 0 (1h 12m 31s): Like all of those things I think are so much better to the alternative of getting angry. 2 (1h 12m 37s): Look, you know, I don't wanna tell, I I don't wanna act like I've always been this really secure person because I've had re I've had relationships where I didn't feel safe and when I didn't feel safe, I wasn't able to be that person. I, a Jealousy came out in me that I wasn't proud of and I wished it didn't come out, but it did. And I know that a huge component of that was that I didn't actually feel secure in the relationship. And some of that was to do with me, but some of that was also to do with the other person and not helping me to feel safe for giving me signs that I wasn't safe. 2 (1h 13m 20s): So I think that I would add the caveat that this stuff works really well. When you are in a relationship with someone who makes you feel safe, that has to be the starting point. So ask yourself, is your Jealousy coming from external or an internal place? Is it, is it because internally I've always been this way with everybody, no matter what they do, they can never do enough to make me feel safe, in which case I know there's a personal journey I have to go on, whether it's through therapy or coaching or my own personal study, I have to work on that. 2 (1h 14m 3s): Or is there something specific about this relationship that is problematic or is making me feel unsafe, in which case let me address that with this person. Because the goal should be to get to a point with each other where we feel so secure in this relationship that I can just appreciate you being over there talking to people and seeing that people find you attractive. And that just is, that's attractive to me. It's not a threat that should be the goal, but I think a lot of people are trying, they can't even get to that part where that might be an enjoyable experience because they fundamentally feel so unsafe in the situation to begin with that all they can think of is imminent danger. 2 (1h 14m 52s): But I, I would argue that it's less likely that someone is suffering from the kind of en we that we are talking about in a relationship if they don't feel safe to begin with. 0 (1h 15m 6s): Yeah, and I mean it's a good point. I don't, I think there are very few people that are just genetically out of the gate, not jealous, just don't experience it. It's just very easy for them to kind of surrender, let go and just have that amount of freedom with their love. That's super rare. I think most people have to work on it. And I was, I was 100% the same way, like viciously jealous for a long period of my time. And then throughout my life and my relationship with my husband, we have navigated like very unconventional rules for our relationship, which challenged them even more. And then people would think that both of us are probably at like the peak of openness and like not being judgmental or jealous. 0 (1h 15m 51s): But I was watching a podcast the other day to kinda like prepare for this other guest and on the podcast was I, it is a podcast so I guess I'll just name it. It was with Aubrey, so it was with Aubrey Vianna and then his ex-fiancee Caitlin. And I was like, whoa, hold on a second. And I started to feel like this was happening to me. Like I started getting jealous and I was like, hold on a second. Like who does she think she is to be sat at that table? And then you can see the relationship that she has with Vianna and like they, you can tell love each other, they're very friendly. Like there is no challenge that is being established by her being there just pure love and acceptance. 0 (1h 16m 36s): And I was like, I thought I had transcended Jealousy and then I see this. So there's always more, there's 2 (1h 16m 42s): Always oh there's always another, yeah, there's always another level. And I have not reached Aubrey's level. No, I could say 0 (1h 16m 50s): That no, nor have I, I was talking to my husband about it and I was like, how would you feel about this? Because like again, we we're kind of outliers within our, our own community just given my previous career and all of that. So we've pre been presented with a lot of opportunities for growth I'll say. And so when I see someone who's playing at a higher level with bigger stakes than me, I was like, damn, like I like it. It's exciting to me. Like my mindset is like, okay, how can I have that level of freedom, that level of certainty and safety within my relationship. Cuz again, whether it's internal or external, my husband has given me zero reason for me to feel unsafe. 0 (1h 17m 32s): But just watching that podcast made me feel unsafe and you know, didn't even involve anyone that I know personally. So I'm like, well there's some work I need to do still that I didn't even know was there. So I think that was a beautiful thing, but just being able to be, you know, radically honest with yourself and say, no, that's my own shit, so I'm gonna go sit with it and figure it out. 2 (1h 17m 52s): Yeah, and you know, like the, the, there's all ev we all get to set the boundary for our own relationship and there's, you know, I don't think anyone hearing this has to go, oh, I have to fundamentally change my boundary in a way that disagrees with my values. You can, you, you can have your boundary and what you both agreed to, that's fine. But I suppose a good barometer is because by the way they're, I I know of couples who are in open relationships who use all the logic we just talked about to, that's that's how they do that, that's how they achieve that. 2 (1h 18m 37s): And that's beyond any boundary I could imagine myself doing. You know, I, I, that's some not one that I can relate to. The, the key question I would ask people to challenge themselves on is where is there a where is there a level of Jealousy that is affecting my quality of life? Because, and, and that could be, it's affecting my quality of life because every time we leave the house I get mad and, you know, I just don't wanna feel this anymore because it's just making my life miserable. It could also be, it's affecting my quality of life because it's making me control this person so much that I'm squashing the passion in the relationship because I'm not allowing there to be a long enough leash in the relationship for myself to feel like I'm living dangerously enough that I can still get those feelings. 2 (1h 19m 40s): It doesn't, you don't have to change your fundamental boundaries. You just have to ask yourself honestly, where is this actually affecting my quality of life? And if it is, then that might be a sign of an unhealthy level of Jealousy. No, and by the way, a little Jealousy is a good thing. Like, you, you can, a little Jealousy is far again, it, it's 0 (1h 20m 2s): Sexy 2 (1h 20m 2s): If it can be in the realm of play. But, but is it in the realm of play for you or is it making you miserable? That's a, that's a big difference. 0 (1h 20m 11s): 100%. Yeah. It's like are you using it as a tool or are you being overcome by it? So when it comes to control, cuz I feel like that is something that we all kind of have to work with within our relationship is our, our understanding of what that means. What's your opinion on that? Like is there a level of control that is healthy? Is it all kind of an illusion? Because the way that I look at it is I don't think that there's any space for it within a relationship. I think that you might have an idea that you have it, that you have control, but I don't think that it exists, nor do I think should you want it over your partner. 0 (1h 20m 52s): I think that you should both be com as free as humanly possible. Now when it comes back down to values, my illusion of control is not the thing stopping you from sleeping with somebody else. That's not it. It's, we are align on our values. So if we are in a monogamous relationship, our values are such that we are honest and integral with those boundaries. Me saying you can't go out with your boys, you can't go on a vacation without me. You can't x y, z like, that level of control isn't preventing that. It's the agreement on our principles. So I like that when I see a lot of men that are like, you know, I'm gonna, she can't go out, she can't wear that Where Women that are doing the same. 0 (1h 21m 35s): It's you're not doing anything except for extending the illusion. So there needs to be some kind of surrender and trust, like fundamental trust that if I let you go away for a weekend, for a bachelor party, I don't have to be tracking your phone, FaceTiming you to make sure you're not someplace you shouldn't be. It's, if you have those feelings, I would say you need to dig a little bit deeper because there is something fundamentally missing from that relationship because you shouldn't have those feelings. Whether he or not he's doing those doesn't really matter at the end of the day because you don't feel safe, like you don't have that trust. 2 (1h 22m 10s): Yeah, that's such a great point. That idea that that's not, it's an illusion. Those trying to control those things is the illusion of control. It's, I'm trying to control these superficial things because it makes me feel like the, the real thing I'm afraid of the deeper thing that I'm afraid of. I, I have this control over that if I can control the surface level and, and that's not true. We all know that's not true. We all know that there are relationships where the, you know, someone tries to control someone every level and that person still goes and cheats, you know, like, it, it doesn't solve the problem as you say. 2 (1h 22m 56s): So I agree. I think that you have to figure out what's the, what's the real thing here? Is it that I don't trust you? Like, is is the the problem really that you're wearing that or is the problem that I don't trust you and if I don't trust you, yes, we have work to do. We have to figure out why that is. Is it something you've done along the way? Is it something that I still haven't forgiven you for? Is it something that I still haven't gotten over and you need to help me work through it because I'm not, I'm not through it. I've been pretending I'm through it and I'm not, is it something that is in me from the past? Those are really, those are the real conversations. I, you know, and then, and being like, vulnerability is so powerful in the right relationship and the wrong relationship is horrendous. 2 (1h 23m 44s): It vulnerability in the wrong relationship can, can, you know, usually it can be very, it can be very painful. I've been vulnerable in the wrong relationship before where I've said something very, very kind of, I've revealed something that made me insecure and I was met with a response. Like it was really unattractive that I just said that and it it, like every male instinct I had to close up after that and never say anything that vulnerable again kicked in. But in the right relationship you should be able to be that vulnerable. And if, you know, it's like, it's like men, what's that? You are telling her she can't wear that or she like, what's behind that? 2 (1h 24m 27s): What is it really like, is it, is it that you feel like if she does that she's gonna run off with somebody else? Is it that you feel like you don't match up to certain other men who are now looking at her, in which case good one, like let's talk, let's like talk about that. She can be a, if she's a great partner, she'll be a teammate in helping to work through that with you or support you in you working through that. Is it that or is it a practical thing? Is it that there's something she wears that's so outrageous or so revealing that it actually makes you afraid because the kind of environments you're going into, you feel like you are gonna end up in a fight with someone who's does something inappropriate and now you have to defend this person and now you're into that scenario and that scares you. 2 (1h 25m 24s): Like this, these are, these are things worth exploring and getting behind. Is it really that she's wearing that thing or is it, is it something much deeper that, that if you were truly vulnerable, you would say out loud those are, those are important conversations to have because everyone's not bad. You know what I mean? Like there are some people who have personality disorders and there's all sorts of stuff going on with them that land them in a different category altogether, but then there's just people who are complicated and s afraid and scared that they don't match up and scared that you're gonna leave them and scared that they're not as cool as this person or not as sexy as this person or not as tough as this person or the, you know, that's, that's real stuff. 2 (1h 26m 19s): And we mask all of that by saying, you know, you look like this when you go out like that. But that's not the real thing. The the real thing is, is that thing that terrifies us. And if we can talk about that in a relationship, I think we can get over a lot of those superficial ways that we control each other. And I think that it's worth saying that once we understand our partners better in that way, as a result of those conversations, there may be areas where you say, you know, oh, you know what, that thing that can, can really trigger you. 2 (1h 27m 1s): I don't need to do that. It's not, it's not that big of a deal to me. It's not that important to me that I need to do that thing that really activates that trauma for you. Like I, it's not that important. There are areas like that in ala in any relationship where we make those kinds of compromises because we don't have to always put our foot down and say, you can never ever tell me what I can and can't do. That's ego. But sometimes it's, oh, if, if this thing really bothers you, it's, you know, what, how you feel about that is more important than me needing to do that thing. But if, if that thing you're saying is something that really impacts my quality of life and you know, something that's important to me, then, then hey, let's explore this. 2 (1h 27m 46s): Let's talk about this because because we're a team, I want you to feel great and I know you want me to feel happy and great too, so let's, let's do the work. 0 (1h 27m 57s): Yeah, it's always, it's, you're always making some kind of concession and not necessarily in a negative way r so sometimes you might need to be showing up a little bit extra for your partner and vice versa. And it's like, do do I really need to do x, y, or z? I saw this TikTok that was kind of like going viral all over Twitter and it was this very submissive wife and she was like, if my husband tells me to sit, I sit. If he tells me to do the dishes, I do the dishes. If he tells me to stay home, I stay home. And with the narrative around it was this obedience of the woman and I was just like, whoa, that's like the other end of the spectrum. 0 (1h 28m 37s): So the way that I look at it, because yes, I think, you know, if you're in a healthy space of expressing your feminine, then you are in like this softer, more surrendered space. However, if I'm going out and for whatever reason, and this goes back to like always assuming the best out of your partner, my husband is like, you know, I'd really appreciate you staying home with me tonight. Like there's a way that he can request it and I'm gonna be like, oh man, something must be going on because of the established, like everything I know about him, all of the data around who Eric is and our relationship and what that means. And I can be like, no, I'm gonna assume the best and he probably really needs me for something and I'll happily stay home and cancel my plans. 0 (1h 29m 21s): But there's this, there again it goes back to, to control or I guess like the, the idea of control and it's like, well no, I'm, I'm the man, so if I tell you to stay home, you have to stay home and I'm the woman so I have to be obedient. It's like, no, there's gonna be concessions. There's definitely a healthy way to approach it and unhealthy way to approach it. 2 (1h 29m 40s): You know, it's, it's funny, I I almost feel like it, I agree with you of course, but you know, it's obviously that's this really extreme, bizarre scenario to the, to the point where it's like I, when it's TikTok, I never even know what's real or or not. I know. But let's say, let's say that that's, that's a real relationship. It it's, it's almost like you wanna say, well that's wrong if the two of you have that dynamic because he says, I'm a man and you are a woman and therefore this is the way it should be. That's the, that's Messed up. But there's plenty of like s you know, if you take it to a less extreme dynamic and just talk about in sex, there's these roles that we play because we both enjoy playing those roles, right? 2 (1h 30m 30s): Re and it might be derived from gender or it might be derived from personal tastes. Either way it's, I think that it's exciting or it can be fun or it can work really well when we lean into roles that we enjoy playing. But once it comes from a frame of this is what you should do and this is what I deserve, that's where it gets, that's where it starts to get really, really scary for people because you just, it becomes a kind of brainwashing instead of this idea of taste or personal preference or what excites me. 0 (1h 31m 8s): No, that's a good distinction. So it's like, do you, are you doing it because you want to versus like, are you being forced to do that? Whether again it's obvious or maybe a little bit more insidious and it comes in all of these like tiny little ways. But yeah, I think it's, it's taking your ego out of it and not saying like, it's my night to go out and I had the kids all day, or I had a hard day at work. It's being able to also, you know, appreciate that. Sometimes it is your turn to not do the fun thing. 2 (1h 31m 38s): Exactly. 0 (1h 31m 40s): Well, this was incredible. I hope a lot of li the listeners took something very valuable away or a couple of valuable points. Do you want to let the listeners know how they can support you, where they can follow you and any projects that you're working on? 2 (1h 31m 55s): Yeah, I, I suppose there's three things that give people different levels of engagement with me. If, if you just wanna keep up with me and, you know, some of my content Instagram, I'm the Matthew Hussey. So if you type that in, you'll find me that you could just keep up to date with me if you want to. I, I've done this for 15 years now. So I have so many different programs and solutions for people, for different aspects of, of their confidence and their love life. If you're in a certain place right now and you wanna know what's the thing I have that's most suited to where you are, you can go to your dating solution.com and there's literally a multiple choice quiz where you can write in what your challenge is and it will recommend you the best solution from everything I have that I've created. 2 (1h 32m 43s): And this June, for anyone who wants to go on a bigger journey with me, I'm doing a three day Virtual retreat. So you could do it from anywhere in the world, but it's three days of immersion coaching with me, not just for your love life, but for your entire life. And you can find out more about that at mh Virtual retreat.com. 0 (1h 33m 2s): Awesome. And I'll make sure I link all of that stuff at the bottom and I have a couple friends I'm sending that link to as soon as we get, get off of this call. Thank you so much again. I had a great time. 2 (1h 33m 14s): Thanks Candace. That was a lovely conversation. I really enjoyed it. 0 (1h 33m 17s): Well that's it for this week's episode of Chatting with Candice. If you enjoyed the episode and the conversation, make sure that you hit the like and subscribe button and if you have a moment, please leave a five star review. It helps me to break the algorithm and if you wanna support the podcast, you can go to Chatting with Candice dot com and from there you can click the link that will take you to Patreon or the one that says, buy me a coffee. It's cold out there folks buy me some coffee. All of that directly goes back into the podcast. I've got Jamie over there helping now and it'll eventually help us get some more in-person guests. So please, if you enjoy the content, show your love. I'll see you next time.