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March 8, 2023

#74 Mysterious Kat - Can you be pretty and smart?

#74 Mysterious Kat - Can you be pretty and smart?

 Chatting with Candice
 Mysterious Kat
 Episode Run Time: 1:21:27

Katherine Brodsky or “Mysterious Kat” is an actress, publicist, director, producer, journalist, and former film critic. In this episode, we chat about how it’s like being a woman on the internet, free speech in the age of Elon Musk’s Twitter, and being a content creator in front of enflamed and captured audiences.

00:00:00 00:01:48 Introducing Kat 
 00:04:34 Can You Be Pretty and Intelligent?
 00:06:38 Raging Feminist and the “Me Too” Movement
 00:14:15 Twitter, Elon Musk, and “Free Speech”
 00:17:24 Eliza Bleu and Accusations
 00:29:43 Clickbait Nature and Journalistic Integrity
 00:36:55 Enflamed Audiences and a Battle of Ideas
 00:44:11 Triggernometry, Audience Capture, and Nuanced Conversations
 00:53:36 The Destiny VS Megan Murphy Debate and the Power of Choice
 00:58:40 The Agency of Women, “Body Count”, and True Female Empowerment
 01:07:47 The Red Pill and the Left VS the Right, and Answering Hate Comments
 01:19:36 Where to Find Kat 

Can a Woman be Pretty AND Intelligent?

There is a level of judgement when people meet Kat because she comes off across as more youthful than people her age. She’s experienced ageism within the film critic community and as a woman, she also always has to constantly defend herself from being defined as a raging feminist whenever she expresses her opinions on the topic. There’s been a longstanding suppression of conversation and we couldn’t talk honestly and openly about feminist topics that when it comes up, men start getting defensive about it and see it as an attack. Alternatively, women are also seen as these mythical creatures who can do no wrong when they are very much as human as their male counterparts.

Twitter, Elon Musk, and Eliza Bleu

In the age of social media and Elon Musk’s Twitter, oftentimes we get bits and pieces of narratives that travel far and wide and people often get a lot of clicks out of these narratives, feeling obliged to pick a side. Truth is more complex and nuanced and lately, nuance in conversations is largely ignored. Then there are some people like Eliza Bleu who seem to make up their own narratives. Do we look at the person or do we look at the message? 

Clickbait Nature VS Journalistic Integrity

There’s no real answer to having journalistic integrity while maintaining clickbait content. Accounts with the highest follower count provoke, spread lies, dismiss rhetoric, and are fully captured by their audiences. Kat chooses to label herself as an independent thinker, not a heterodox, by looking at all sides and not going with whatever the mainstream narrative is or what the culture wars are fighting for.

Links and Resources:





Journalist Katherine Brodsky or Mysterious Kat talks feminism, Twitter, clickbaits, nuanced conversations, and the true meaning of female empowerment.

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0 (0s): There is this idea, almost this dichotomy, that you can't be a beautiful woman and also be Intelligent. It's almost like if you lean into that femininity too much, that you have to be kind of like taking it from somewhere. People assume that you're taking it from another area in order to compensate perhaps. And then in your bio it says fem face Hal in the trapped in the mind of a writer. And I really appreciated that because I'm, it shows how complicated and complex that we all are and that you can be multiple things at the same time. So do you feel that because you like you're a very beautiful woman. 0 (41s): Hello everybody. You are listening to Chatting with Candace. I'm your host Candice Horbacz. Before we jump into this week's episode, if you could quickly hit that like and subscribe button wherever you are watching or listening. It helps me out a ton with the algorithm charting showing up for other people who may not know the show exists yet. So you could help in that part. I wanted to do a couple quick shout outs before we introduce our guest. So I wanted to say thank you to crazy s and pat. B thank you so much for those cups of coffee. I really appreciate it. All of the funds go directly back into the podcast, so if you want to help Support the show, you can go to buy me a coffee.com/candace. Again, all of those funds go directly back into the show. 0 (1m 24s): This week we have Katherine Brodsky joining the podcast. Katherine is a writer and a journalist. I really love the way her beautiful mind works. She's a really great follow on Twitter and that's where we discovered each other and I really hope that one day we can sit down in person and have a couple cocktails. So in the meantime, please join us for this wonderful conversation with Katherine Brodsky. Thank you so much for joining the podcast today, Katherine. I was really excited. We've been following each other on Twitter for a while and I always really appreciate your content and I see that you're pushing out videos now, which I really love being able to see a personality in a face behind all of the tweets because before I think your Twitter handle is so appropriate, it's like Mysterious cat and I'm like, who is this woman? 2 (2m 9s): And now I'm not Mysterious anymore. Like am I different than you expected? Am I 0 (2m 15s): Your, I think more youthful than I would've expected. I don't know why, but the person in my mind was older when I was reading the tweets and then I saw your videos come out and I was like, oh she's very young. 2 (2m 27s): I'm not though. That's funny. I present, I identify as wait, I was trying to make a joke in there and it just kinda didn't work out. 0 (2m 36s): No, I like that. I'm gonna say I identify as young pretty much forever. So you have 2 (2m 42s): Validate that. So I've genetically been both blessed and cursed with this. Like I have like this little picture of that portrait of Dorian Gray cuz people are like, you don't age cuz I don't seem to, I think my, when I look at myself I feel like I change, like my face changes, the shape changes a little bit. Like I don't have that like baby fat anymore and the shape of my face changes but I don't look older. So it's a very weird thing. And so people, when they see me, they assume certain things about me cuz they, and I have that youthful personality cuz I'm very mischievous and I like little pranks and you know, I, I don't know whatever it is. 2 (3m 31s): But on the inside, I made this joke recently to someone I feel like I live in dog years so you, you multiply everything by seven. And I think I've felt that way since I was a child like old soul. But I think I've almost regressed. Yeah, I felt like an old soul. But I think I've almost like regressed cuz I think like, I think I always wanted to appear older when I was younger and I think people thought I was older because of the way that I carried myself. And also the way I started writing, I'd be, I started out as a film critic actually. And so I'd go to film screenings and it was all full of like middle-aged men and I'd be, and I was the youngest person by far in the room and so I tried to fit in. 2 (4m 19s): And so it's funny, so they, I tried to portray myself as older back then and now I think I don't care as much so I'm not afraid to portray myself, you know, in a silly way. So it's all very confusing to me. 0 (4m 34s): No, it's interesting that we kind of started off on appearance because I, there is this idea, almost this dichotomy that you can't be a beautiful woman and also be Intelligent. It's almost like if you lean into that femininity too much that you have to be kind of like taking it from somewhere. People assume that you're taking it from another area in order to compensate perhaps. And then in your bio it says fem face Hal in the trapped in the mind of a writer. And I really appreciated that because I'm, it shows how complicated and complex that we all are and that you can be multiple things at the same time. So do you feel that because you, like you're a very beautiful woman, do you feel like that ever takes away or that some people try to take that away from your writing and your work? 2 (5m 23s): I think there is definitely a level of judgement that happens, especially when people meet someone in person or me in person I guess because I do come across more youthful. There's all these assumptions that get made, you know, and I think a lot of it is ageist especially and a lot of it, I mean also looks for sure there is this sense that you get by, you know, I think the, there's these little comments, oh this person is talking to you because of how you look or you have, you know, I'm well connected with or was well connected with certain people and I think there's a level of jealousy that I would observe and people would make these little comments where it was almost like, oh it's because of how you look and they are flirting with you or they like you, they have these little crushes on you. 2 (6m 14s): And not because I've earned it as a person because of my mind or I've earned it because of my personality or because of the work that I've done. You know, I did feel like a certain confidence at a certain point in my life where I've built up a pretty good resume, I've done a lot of work and I looked a different way. Or if I was a male, I don't think anyone would think twice about making these comments. And by the way, I am not like this Raging Feminist or anything and it's funny that I have to like almost defend myself and say that, but that does come into play. It does. And I've been thinking about that a little bit more lately. 0 (6m 51s): I think it just shows Nuanced thinking and so often we wanna kind of put things in buckets so we can't agree with maybe someone that has a certain ideology down the line. So it's like if I say that I have been mistreated in the workplace because I was a woman at this one time, then all of a sudden I have to agree that there's this kind of conspiratorial patriarch behind the scenes that's running everything that's trying to keep women down. So you can't almost share your experiences without people trying to put you into one camp or another. And that's so frustrating to me because these things that needed to happen, whether it was like allowing women to make the decision to go to work or not, or you know, people calling out like perpetrators of sexual harassment in the workplace. 0 (7m 35s): Like all of these things needed to happen but they almost took on a life of their own and then it took value away from people that are actually going through this. Do you know what I mean? It like it made it less real and it made it more of an ideology. So then I do the same thing, I'm like, I'm swear I'm not this crazy Feminist but X, Y and Z and it's like no, like these truths can still exist and I don't have to make this my whole personality. Like some people do. 2 (7m 58s): I think it's because there's been a suppression of conversations for so long that people are now so defensive almost, right? So we couldn't talk openly and honestly about a lot of these things. So when somebody brings up that's something that sounds like it's like a Feminist attack, men start kinda getting so defensive about it that they see it as an attack. Whereas it's just, okay, this is just one point. We're not saying that these, the X and Y doesn't happen, right? And so, and this is a general thing that's been happening, I think in conversations in general it's become really, really difficult to have nuanced conversations where people concede some ground and even the phrasing of that seed some ground is problematic on its own because you know, we really, there, it's almost like every conversation is a Debate where people wanna win their points but instead of just kind of navigating and conversing and trying to figure out what, what is actually happening, but instead of that we're just having these conversations that are really much more debates where people wanna win. 2 (9m 6s): It's my side against your side and it's because I think we've had such unhealthy conversations for so long where people were like either not allowed to say certain things or they were attacked or saying those things. So it's become so combative it's like one against the other. And I think that's where we're seeing this. So even in, yeah, when we're talking about these, okay, like if we take the topic to sort of the Me Too side of things, well you know, yeah it's kind of, there was a point where some of these things have gone too far and because they've gone too far, some people have gotten angry about it and I understand that anger, but it doesn't mean that some of the points in the conversation aren't at all valid and should be dismissed. 2 (9m 56s): But they are, you know, because people are just so angry and likewise, you know, people are dismissive of anyone who goes well you, you can't talk about, you know, they're like you can't dismiss Me Too believe all women and all that kind of stuff, right? 0 (10m 11s): Oh, which is like I, okay, I've never met a woman that's lied before. Like come on, it's almost, it's like turning us into this mythical creature that doesn't exist. Like we are all so human and like all humans there's a wide variance in how we show up at interface with the world around us and our community and even ourselves. So just be like this entire category of human doesn't lie is just absurd to me. Everyone's lied, everyone has lied a white lie or a big lie. And that kind of gets into the idea of hijacking these movements that are or should be very beneficial like Me Too. So I don't know if you've followed the Eliza Blue Twitter scandal, but so I had her on my podcast and then one of my friends, Chrissy Mayer had her on her podcast and then all of a sudden all this information's kind of coming out and for people that don't know, she kind of made a personality online of being a sex trafficking advocate and also survivor. 0 (11m 9s): So she did the podcast runs and like started rubbing elbows with the who's who's she's exchanged with Elon publicly. And then through that attention, some people brought up certain discrepancies within her narrative and it started to kind of fall apart. And to me the way that I interpreted it and I did reach out privately several times to try to just like clear the air before I made a video, before I made any comments publicly. So I'm at peace with the way that I handled the situation. I don't like that people are really like going for the jugular with her because I don't think that's also fixing anything. But what I really was concerned about because we had this idea that once Elon bought Twitter, it was gonna be like this real champion, champion championing is that a word of Free Speech and kind of the getting rid of this cancel culture and this censorship, whether it's self cen censorship or actually by the platform itself. 0 (12m 4s): And then a couple people were posting this and it almost looks like she had friends on the inside and they started censoring people and then it you take again this thing that's supposed to be beautiful, which is helping women that are being sex trafficked and right, like this horrible thing that's happening and like creating advocacy for that. And then now people are kind of showing you as a potential fraud and you start censoring them. So then what that does in my opinion is create like this huge distrust between any future survivors. It's like how do you handle situations where something good turns into something toxic just like Me Too in my opinion. 2 (12m 42s): Yeah, I mean that situation is kind of interesting cause and it also found it difficult to comment on and I know there's a few people who almost tried to call me out for not commenting on it because 0 (12m 55s): How dare you not have an opinion on everything? 2 (12m 57s): How dare you not have an opinion I everything. It's funny because I'm like I've never talked about her in the first place so I'm like why should I have an opinion? I mean that's the thing I feel like I'm missing a lot of information potentially. So that's a big part of why I didn't comment on it looking at the story based on what I know, you know, if in fact if Twitter is removing content based on inside relationships, obviously that's wrong. If they're doing it because of legal obligations, that's a whole different story. I wish there would be more transparency as to what, why what's happening is happening. 2 (13m 37s): I don't know why, what's going on with her is going on. Like you know I've said in private conversations that just because maybe there was a misrepresentation of the truth potentially doesn't mean that she's not a victim of sex trafficking. Like maybe there are parts of the story that we are unaware of. People deal with situations in different ways, which is why also I'm like, you know, are these attacks so that are so public, so healthy? Like what good is it doing? So, which is why I sort of haven't really commented on this stuff in any kind of public capacity. But yeah, I mean it's difficult because I think often we get bits and pieces of narratives and they travel far and wide and I think people often make, you know, get a lot of clicks out of these narratives and or they need to feel like they have to pick a side and the truth might be far more complex or people make up their own narratives as well, right? 2 (14m 44s): That also happens and then they make up potentially characters and personas too. I mean that also happens and they could be beneficial and then they are destructed and what damage does that do? And Do we look at the person or do we look at the message. So I think it's very complex and we live in this like social media world where everything is just so polarized and all the narratives are manipulated and I think everything is also so games for clicks and responses and I think to a large extent that's very dishonest and nuance is not promoted and nuance isn't rewarded and I think about that a lot and how do you reward ones can use that and not in our human nature to do that. 2 (15m 38s): Perhaps not, but can we have better systems that do reward that and that is problem. And then also going back to Twitter and I was sort of excited, yeah I wasn't sure what was gonna happen when Elon bought Twitter. I was curious as to what would happen. I wasn't like oh my god, Elon is our savior of Free Speech. That was not my attitude. But you know, he seemed interested in Free Speech and I was curious as to how he would handle that and whether that idea was absolute and then it clearly isn't. He had shown whether that's for example kicking off ye or Kanye, however he wishes to identify himself and however you know, whether you agree with that or not, I think it's fair to say that's not really Free Speech, he justified that by saying that the symbols were inciting violence. 2 (16m 34s): But you know, I wouldn't say that's quite the fair assessment personally though I think they were despicable. But I think you could say to date, based on the actions, Twitter is not a platform of Free Speech. And what I was expecting from Twitter was a platform at the very least, even if it wasn't like absolute Free Speech, which you could make the argument for or against that it would be transparent and the rules would be equally applied. I think that was more important to me and that hasn't happened but people are sort of almost blinded because they feel like oh this guy's on our side and so yeah I don't know, I don't know what's gonna happen with that. 2 (17m 15s): And I was giving it a lot of room where I was like, oh he'll figure it out. You know? I guess it's like it's, you can't expect day one but it's like a little bit past day one at this point. And then when people bring out the Eliza story, I mean the fact that there hasn't been transparency at the very least and why the policy was implemented in the way that it has, I think that's worrisome, right? Again, he can do whatever he wants with his company, but if he ran, you know, ran shoot for president of Twitter in the way that he has saying that this is gonna be Twitter 2.0 where it's transparent and Free Speech and all that, but it's not really what's happening, it just shows you that no one is really, you know, people might have the best intentions which he may very well have had. 2 (18m 10s): But unless you hold them to that standard and unless they make these rules and standards very clear and transparent, that's not what ends up happening. 0 (18m 20s): No, I agree. I think transparency would definitely ease a lot of people's tension. And I think a lot of people did were tagging him and I think head of what department is it? I guess like safety, head of safety maybe at Twitter because like they follow each other and they're friends and they're like, well what's happening here? And then the idea was almost that consent was revoked for these music videos that people were posting. Cause people were, and again like people process trauma differently. So it's not to say that you can't have gone through a traumatic experience and then maybe try to like regain your power, which is very common actually. Like to reenact it. So I'm not hating on that at all what my issue is cuz she came out and she said, I'm changing my story now and I have now been a victim three times and the most recent is by people that are posting my content to me on a public platform. 0 (19m 12s): And I was like whoa, Missy, by that definition like I'm, I am trafficked every day, all day online because people are constantly tagging me in my own content that I don't wanna see. And you can't imagine if you shot something, if this was actually how the law worked is that you shot something, someone spends $30,000 plus on some project, whether it's a music video or an interview or what have you, docu-series and then a year down the road you're like actually I'm revoking my consent. That's not how it works. Otherwise no content could be created cuz no one would take that gamble. That's a huge financial loss. And obviously if there's something that truly happens on set, I think that's different. But then there's d, there has to be due process for it. It can't just be like all of a sudden again believe all women and we're gonna take everything out. 0 (19m 56s): And I just was so frustrated because like a, you take people like me and you're making me look powerless and then you're actually taking power away from where people need to be focusing on or like attention away from where people need to be focusing on. And it's certainly not over a music video that you just wish you didn't shoot. 2 (20m 12s): No, I completely agree with that and I saw that post. I also found some other comments a bit disturbing. I think I watched part of her interview, I think it was on Tim Cass or Tim i r l whatever he calls it. And she was talking about the women who were making the Accusations against Andrew Tate. Not a lot of love there for me, but I did find it disturbing that, you know, she said she did pretty much say, you know, I believe all the women you know as an advocate, you know, immediately believe all women. And I do find that kind of attitude disturbing because I do think we need to have that due process and the idea of like there's a difference. 2 (20m 55s): Like if I had a friend that I know personally who came to me and said, you know, this is what happened to me and yeah I'm gonna believe my friend because I know my friend's character and I'm gonna stand by my friend. That's a really different situation than just some random person coming. I think there needs to be a due process and there have been people whose lives have been destroyed by truly false Accusations. And especially when these Accusations are anonymous, there have been a lot of anonymous Accusations, right? And I've actually, I mean I've grappled with these questions myself, especially during Me Too, I remember there was an anonymous list that was circulating of shitty media men and there was a part of me I thought, well we should be able to warn women about these dangerous predators potentially, right? 2 (21m 44s): But at the same time you're destroying people's lives and they might be completely innocent. And I had gotten to know somebody who that did happen to and you know, knowing his story like just completely changed my point of view on this. And I now very much believe that the court of public opinion based on anonymous accusation is just not the way to do this. And so I strongly sort of now advocate for that not to be the case. And I knew people also personally knew people who were accused and it's a v very weird place to be because I didn't know if those Accusations were true or false, right? And in some cases I think they did turn out to be true and in some cases I guess I'll never know. 2 (22m 30s): And just because those things didn't happen to me with those people doesn't mean it didn't happen to somebody else. So it just, it, there was a lot of mental gymnastics that went on in my head during those times cuz you kind of rethink a lot of things and you just don't know and you don't know necessarily how to behave cuz you were like, well do I defend that person because you just don't know. And so there's a lot of question marks and I don't think these things are so black and white. I don't think we can always figure it out. Now again, if it was like a very, very close friend where I felt like I very confident in the Integrity of that person, I think it'd be a little bit different. 2 (23m 14s): It's somebody who I'm not as close to, it's a different situation. But yeah, I think we all kind of grappled with this stuff. But again, there's a reason why we do have due process, but in the age of social media we sort of have this situation where an accusation is enough and as, and even an anonymous one is sort of enough to cast enough doubt on a person and especially something so serious that it destroys their life. And he used to be able to maybe, you know, if you were accused in a small town, you used to be able to maybe move to a new town, but now you can and it's gonna follow you on the internet. You won't be able to get a job whether you're guilty or innocent, which hasn't been settled or determined. 2 (23m 58s): Your life is kind of destroyed by the mere accusation, right? Like imagine you applying for a job and you've been accused of something as serious as rape, you're like applying for a job. What are the odds that somebody, the person employing you is really going to give you the benefit of the doubt and risk employing you? I think it's close to zero, it's really close to zero. So that's why it's so serious because you're prosecuting a person ultimately without evidence at all to a life of, you know, maybe not even having employment, being harassed, all these things, you know, maybe they're not going to jail but they are getting consequences and they're potentially innocent. 2 (24m 44s): So I think that's why so serious and Me, Too on the one hand, yeah, like it was great that people were able to talk about things that happened to them and I think the conversation itself was probably quite necessary. And both men and women, I mean I've heard lots of stories also for men, but the accusation part, I think that's a different thing. 0 (25m 6s): I totally agree. It's for me, I don't know a great solution other than everyone at some point is gonna be accused of something that they're not guilty of and it's gonna be to the point where we all have it. So unless there is that concrete proof, then we're just gonna have to assume innocence like we're supposed to with due process. Because a lot of the things unfortunately, unless you constantly have a recorder on you or there's some way that it's caught on, you know, CCTV or something like that, there's not gonna be a ton of evidence. You know what I mean? So that's where I find it to be so tricky because unless it's like a violent whatever assault, there might not be any actual physical proof. So it's tough if someone maybe just like grabs you in a way that they're not supposed to or maybe says something threatening or it's crossing like a very obvious line. 0 (25m 53s): But then again there's no proof. So yeah, I think as a woman it's an unfortunate truth that you kind of just have to make sure that you're prepared to handle yourself in any situation. That way there can be a consequence, right? Like you, you don't go to a man's room by yourself, especially after a certain hour because it's just putting you in, in a compromising position. Again, it's not like apologizing for the, for these men that are awful, but it's just having that situational awareness I think. And 2 (26m 19s): We, well and I've done that. That's the interesting, I mean all these people were saying hey like you know, all these women, they've put themselves in these positions. But like, you know, maybe I was like super naive and everything but it was like a pretty common thing where you just, you hang out with someone at a, you know I've gone to a lot of filth festivals and things like that and you just hang out and then nothing has ever happened. Like I was totally safe, I've trusted my gut but it did make me question my gut more, you know, to be honest. Wait, that's the complexity cuz like, well because I trusted my gut and went and hung out with these men and you know, it was like well we gotta know each other better. 2 (27m 0s): We had a, you know, more fun, like more intimate, like intimate in the sense of like friendship, right? None of these things, none of these people made moves on me like it was nothing like that. And I think people misinterpreted like in the narrative a lot of these women. So that's why I'm saying it's not so like black and white. So I understand like you wanting to be more cautious in these situations but that also removes sometimes like you make everything so much more superficial in in one's interactions. So, so that's why it's like not so clear to me what that answer really is. Do you never, do you never trust your gut? Do you never like have like, you know, I don't know, it's hard. 2 (27m 45s): And also in terms of Accusations, I mean they don't have to be sexual. I mean I've had an accusation, somebody made up a completely ridiculous story about me that was nothing, wasn't anything like that, right? Like somebody can accuse you of anything at this point and unless like you said you have audio evidence, which actually I could have gotten, but it would've been a bit of a process. But even then what do you do with it? Like actually considered suing the person, you know, just because I was so upset that somebody could be so blatant in making up a lie. But you know, it costs money, it's going to be a whole process and ultimately you also have to prove damages. Like you have to go and prove that you've lost work opportunities so there's no consequences. 2 (28m 29s): And this is a big part of it. When you accuse somebody of something that is false, there are no consequences for that. So that's a big, that's a really big part of it. So and so people can weaponize their lies and you have really no defense to it because there's nothing that's going to happen to them. There's no price to pay. That is why I think we're seeing a lot of the things that we are in the culture. In fact they're probably gonna be rewarded for it because people are gonna side with them. You call somebody a racist, you call somebody a sexual predator, you know whatever it is a conard, you know grifter, I mean so many people get call grift, some of them are, but most people, some of them are, I've seen, I spotted a few lately, but some of them really are to like, like it's a very overused word, you know, under they're of one word that I see a lot is that, what is it the, some people love to use that against anyways doesn't matter but like it's like not, there was just no consequence for that kind of behavior. 2 (29m 36s): So of course people are going to do it cause they, it's just empowers them and it's this like little weapon that they have in their arsenal. 0 (29m 43s): Yeah, so I mean the internet kind of makes things very interesting as far as as what is propped up. Like what we're idealizing, what we're valuing. And I think one thing we kind of touched on a little bit was Integrity and then also the nature of the internet, which is this click clickbaits nature. And unfortunately unless you have this misleading headline or you create this persona that's such a hyperbole in its own existence, like just this like bombastic offensive man, like man or woman, I see women too, this crazy exaggerated personality that is like meant to in flame and now even these quote red Pill people are doing it too. 0 (30m 26s): Like no one is safe, no group is safe. Which is why I think you need to like say fuck both groups and just really be an independent thinker. But you see it and it's like how do you hold onto your Integrity? Especially as a writer, especially as a journalist, especially as a public figure without, I guess for a lack of better terms, like selling your soul to get the clicks. Because if you don't have traffic, how are you really making a change if you're not touching people and you know, getting your message out there in one way or another, like how do you grab them without sacrificing that one? That's kind of what they're saying that they want. 2 (31m 0s): Yeah, it's really hard honestly because the people that I like the most, like the people I enjoy following the most, they, they really don't have nearly the audiences that I wish they would because they're the more Nuanced, the smarter, they're the more pro-human, you know, that's more the approach that they take and they have the lowest kind of follower count. Whereas the accounts that I see that have the highest ones that you know, they're grifters in a way, right? Like at the very least, even if they're not making a lot of money, which some of them are, they're all, they are provoking, they're spreading kind of wise divisive rhetoric. They are and they know exactly what they're doing, right? 2 (31m 41s): It's like it takes a certain awareness to write that kind of tweet. And the other thing that happens is that they're also captured by their audience. So some people aren't even, maybe don't even start out that way but become that way because their audience like demands that of them. I even noticed that with myself like because I think people sort of saw me as this kind of heterodox thinker and when I would post things that weren't not heterodox, they would get mad at me and unfollow where they're like, we thought you were heterodox. I'm like, well now I'm not, I'm not. I don't see myself as heterodox. I think heterodox is a very dangerous label. 2 (32m 23s): I don't look to be the opposite of something I'm trying to, independent thinker is a much better label because I'm just trying to think it independently, but it might lead to a mainstream thought sometimes like a large group of people, people actually gets it right? I mean we don't think the earth is flat, right? That's not who you ask on YouTube. You can get into a real rabbit hole. I went into that rim, they're very persuasive. But you know, I think at this point there is a, some consensus that the earth is not flat. And I think, I know some dis will disagree, but I think we got that one right? 2 (33m 3s): If I was a heer dogs thinker, I should presumably say that the earth is flat. So things like that. I do have a particular view on say Russia and Ukraine and I am pro Ukraine and I, and people got very mad at me about that. Now I did look at that independently, I looked at all sides of it, I investigated, I was open-minded about it I think initially, but I came to that conclusion and I think that's what being open-minded and independent thinker is, right? Not just going with whatever the mainstream narrative is but looking at it for yourself. But being heterodox I think to me is like, oh I just go with the opposite of what everyone seems to believe in the mainstream. 2 (33m 45s): And I don't think that's a great path to follow, but I think people get really trapped with this like okay, like they get into these culture wars and things like that and now they have to serve this like I'm woke, I'm this right and I don't think that's a healthy thing to be. And then they get further and further down that rabbit hole and they become more aggressive as well. And I think it's just such an unhealthy place that they go to and it's just causes more division because what purpose is that servant really like okay, it's empowering maybe a group of people to be able to be a little bit more bold to speak out against like whatever woke wokeness is by current definitions. 2 (34m 27s): But it's bringing people together at all. It's just getting people more angry at each other and I don't think it's ultimately going to solve any problems. So, but it is getting more cliques, it's getting more followers, it's getting people more aggressive and unfortunately that's what's incentivized online and I don't like that. So I noticed like the people who follow me, which is going to always be I think a smaller group than other people, they are more into sort of nuance. They're more open-minded. A lot of them say, you know, we disagree with you on a lot of things but I like being able to see different sides of the picture and I like really appreciate that in those people. 2 (35m 14s): But is it going to be a large group of people? Unfortunately not. And I'm starting to get a little more depressed about it because I'm realizing it's an even and smaller group than I think I saw thought and I think I was more optimistic about a year ago, year and a half ago. And I'm seeing my optimistic, optimistic optimism, whatever the word is, is waning a little bit because I see how easily people embrace whatever it is that people cater to them and are not really into critical thinking. 2 (35m 54s): They think they're critical thinkers but they really want whatever confirms their own beliefs and their own anger. And somebody said this recently or posted this as an kind of criticism of me and they said, you know Catherine, she makes people who know the truth doubt it and it causes fighting and I don't know bad things. And I thought wow that's interesting. You would think that's, that means a, you're if I cause doubt in you and you know the truth, maybe you don't know the truth, 0 (36m 32s): Right? Maybe you need to explore it a little bit further and it sh definitely gonna make you mad. It should make you curious and interested and introspective. Yeah and like really want to understand the first principles of whatever that thought or belief system is. 2 (36m 46s): You would think that and then a lot. But a lot of people then you know like the post and agreed with this person and I thought well that shows something is a bit off. 0 (36m 55s): Yeah, I'm the same way. I get really frustrated when I see certain accounts just growing massively and I don't understand why swarms of people want to support anyone that is just so angry and then all of their followers are also angry. Like there's this energetic magnet that kind of exists and like attracts like so the more enflamed they get, the more enflamed their audience gets and it's like do you like feeling this way? Like is this serving you in any way? But what I would say is giving me some hope is that I do see some descenders. So I do agree that getting captured by your base is really dangerous and I think you kind of always have to be checking the temperature on that. 0 (37m 35s): Like do I really think this? Am I scared to post this that I'm gonna lose followers? If that's the case and you actually believe what you're thinking, hit the post button because being captured by your audience is gonna limit your growth in the long term. And I see this a lot within like my previous industry is they kind of tell you to just exist. Don't share your opinions, don't share your personal life, no one cares, you're just there to exist as this pretty thing. And I couldn't be a better example of I do, I break all of those rules and I do really well and I'm still like a top 50 whatever. And I have been outta the industry for X amount, like for I don't know, like seven years. So there are no rules. Rules. Oh okay. Say fuck those rules, right? I think challenging people is a beautiful thing and then the more people that are going to disagree with you, I think that's a lot of people agree they're maybe just a little bit scared to come out of out of the woodwork. 0 (38m 22s): But there was this tweet that I saw or was a video, it was Matt Walsh, I'm sure you saw it was him talking about Dylan. 2 (38m 29s): Oh 0 (38m 29s): Yeah. And this is like a great example of being captured by your audience because his whole persona is ultra-conservative. Dads saving America one tweet at a time, Matt Walsh everybody. Well I don't agree with the whole gender ideology that is getting so obsessed with identity that we actually don't know who we are And like it's like the more labels we ascribe to us, the more yeah we don't know ourselves is what that says to me. So I don't agree with the fa like the fundamental principles of like this gender war that's happening. When I first saw Dylan's account, I actually thought it was parody for a long time I was actually tweeting with Gad cuz Gad was at the very beginning of the year was like, look at this thing. And I was like, I think it's a parody account. 0 (39m 11s): And he's like, oh maybe it is even he was like questioning is this a parody account because a stereotype of what womanhood is to like almost a an offensive level. Yeah. And turns out it wasn't because Dylan went and had surgery to look more feminine and, and had posted something. I think Dylan was going to an awards show. So Matt Walsh. Oh yeah, Dylan was going to an awards show and made a TikTok and it was like I'm, I could steal your husband but I won't cause I'm not that kind of girl. I was like whoa, that's not something a really classy lady says or acts like. And I found that to be kind of gross. But then Matt goes out and starts making all of these horrible comments like personal attacks, just really disparaging content. 0 (39m 52s): And to me it's like you can disagree on a thought or a belief system or whatever it is, but like show me your intellect and do it in an honest and above board way. Like really like a Battle of ideas, right? And not go for the personal attacks, but he just went for the ular with the personal attacks to the point where certain groups like Francis and Constantin of trigonometry made a rebuttal post and people would kind of call them Alt Ray even though they're totally not but they call them Alt Ray or like, you know Red Pill and all of that. And they're not like, they are very much independent thinkers and this kind of showcases this because they make their video and they're like, we don't agree on all of this, you, we have plenty of content to back up our case. 0 (40m 37s): However, this isn't how you do it, this isn't changing hearts and minds. So what is the goal here? Is it just to get your base like all hyped up and like yeah we were the meanest on Twitter today or are you trying to actually win people over to your camp because that's not the way that you do it, but for some reason you get all of those views. But I guess where this long-winded story is, I have hope when I see big accounts like that that are doing things that very much I'm sure upset some of their base because they called Dylan by Dylan's preferred pronouns. So they were addressing Dylan as as she in the video and they're like, why would you do that? And then they were also kind of condemning what Matt did and called him out directly. And again like you can't do that because he's such a, an idolized character on the right. 0 (41m 18s): So like well if they can do it, hopefully they inspire smaller creators to also do that and then we can kind of challenge ourself to be more independent thinking and ch and approach these really charged topics with nuance and saying you don't have to be cruel to make a point. Hey everyone, this is new. So we are taking a quick break for a couple of sponsors. How exciting is that that we have a couple sponsors for the podcast. So this is new, please don't skip it, just listen, it's cool stuff I promise. So my first one is a small company called Rad Nas Rocks and I'll make sure I have the link below. As you know I love crystals and I get made fun of for it all of the time, but I'm, I'm not gonna change my ways and I'm gonna stand by it. 0 (42m 2s): I truly believe in them and I think that they're beautiful so sue me. But he sent me, I mean how incredible is that? He sent me this beautiful amethyst, I've got this really cute rose quartz skull. All this is on my table you can't see, but when I start doing two cameras you'll be able to see my little setup and this cute little crystal Buddha, how adorable is he? I these bracelets are from there. I mean I was really stoked to have him as a sponsor because this is right up my alley. So if you're into any crystals or you just wanna check out the website, it's wagners rocks.com and I'll link that below And the last affiliate last sponsor, please don't skip, this one's a good one. 0 (42m 47s): So we all know the benefits of fasting. Well my husband and I have used this company pro on actually a couple of times. So I was really excited that they wanted to be an affiliate of podcast. So if you wanna try ProLon, it's a fasting mimicking diet so you get all the benefits of a water fast and it's a lot easier cuz you get this delicious food instead of having to completely eat nothing. 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Use code Candace and let's return to the episode. 2 (44m 11s): I really liked trigonometry and I like Constantine and Constantine said something in the past or he said specifically about Audience Capture where he said that I try to intentionally piss off every segment of my followers like so that I'm not audience captured. So he actually is aware of it it and he will intentionally do that. And actually that kind of stuck with me as well cuz I was thinking about that at the time. I mean I don't have his audience but he is, you know, definitely think of that as well. Just try to say what I believe, you know, that's all I can do. So I know I piss up cuz I've now, you know, I didn't used to have any conservative followers. I definitely have a whole bunch of them now and went about the word groomer for a while, quite a few posts and I know I pissed a lot of people off because I, it just, it really bothered me the level and the re responses to my tweets like really illustrated the problem that I was trying to showcase in the first place because they were calling like everyone a groomer but the word groomer, like some people were offended by my post cuz they were like how dare you not tell us not to use the word but they were actually using the word properly cuz they were talking about like literally people who were pedophiles and trying to groom young children, you know to, you know, for sexual assault reasons, totally the proper way to use the word. 2 (45m 33s): And other people who are talking about, you know, teachers maybe talking about their significant other who might be of the same gender in the classroom. Very different things. So, and my whole point was like why are you using these labels instead of just naming the thing that you have an issue with, then you can discuss that thing that you have an issue with but like, but you're like, you know, labeling it and you know, and the same thing with with Dylan. Like I, I was pretty like offended by girlhood stuff but the way that Matt Walsh approaches like I think the criticism was spot on by, you know, this trigonometry team. That's exactly where I'm with it And you know, clearly this person is now kind of living their life, her life and you know, did the surgeries and no longer seems to be using the girl her labels. 2 (46m 26s): I'm like okay I think it can talk about the issues around and Elsa as an adult, right, not a child. That's a pretty significant distinction, right? And I think the way that mul Matt Walsh, just the critic, like it doesn't do anything productive except gets people like really riled up. And I just saw the level of venom that a lot of people seem to like to direct towards these groups of people is just not productive. And also like people are like, oh this person has pronouns in the bio, you know, let's not talk to them. And I get that it's like a signal but also like I have been talking occasionally to people with pronouns in their bios even though I'm not like a big pronoun person. 2 (47m 13s): But curiosity I think gets you much further. And I've talked to people, I'm like, oh so like tell me about it. You know, how come you've chosen that path? What do you think? And sometimes like the stuff like it's not insane like you know, it's like you, you can disagree but it doesn't make that person like less of a person. It doesn't mean that they're a horrible person or they're so insane. And I think we'll get much further by having conversations, especially some of these people are willing to have the conversation. So my standard is like you're fine if you're willing to have a conversation not attack the person. And I think the behaviors that some people engaged in is like, it's the same thing that they're criticizing. 2 (47m 57s): That's the problem that I'm having. It's like they become the thing that they're the thing that they're criticizing, so what's the point? How are you any better? And the freedom of speech too. Like there's all these people who say, oh we, we don't like these people shut down our freedom of speech. You know, especially people on the left, you know, they shut down our freedom of speech and we don't do that but they're just as quick to do that. You know what, it's just maybe they don't have the same power. And that's what I've been noticing a lot of lately cuz people are very quick to tell me to shut up and try to silence and send really horrible messages and then also tell other people and try to get them fired. 2 (48m 40s): I mean all the same kinds of tactics are being used, it's just that think that in their situation it's justified and the other situations they don't think it's justified. So anyone is just as capable of it. It's just that they, not everyone has the same power and not everyone or they think that, you know, in some cases it's okay, in other cases it's not. 0 (49m 5s): I see the same thing. I think when you go too far to the left or too far to the right, both people are really eager to shut down conversations or content that they don't agree with. I think the left uses, they kind of weaponize empathy and compassion and then the right we weaponizes morality and both of them are so righteous in their cause that they can't be talked out of it. You know, they are the like the gatekeeper of truth and everyone else is just either a bigot or like, what's the word I'm looking for? Like a heathen, 2 (49m 37s): Right? Yeah. So do you 0 (49m 39s): Think that that's it And with those people it's really tough. So I mean getting back to how do you wanna show up in Integrity and nuance in conversation, do you think that there's certain types of people or maybe certain topics that need to maybe be more aggressively debated versus having a Nuanced conversation? Like do you think some people almost need that spar and like that very blunt way of discord to in to like crack through that ideology like there that there's no way to have a civil Nuanced conversation because they're just so dogmatic in whatever it is that they believe? 2 (50m 19s): I think that's a really good question. I know that some people believe that that's the case. I know that when it comes to like certain things like gender ideology kind of discourse, social justice things in schools like a C R T, all that kind of stuff. I know that some people believe that I don't, but I could be wrong. That's the thing. I mean, I don't know, I could be wrong. I just, I do have very strong, I guess moral or principle attachments to what I believe is the right way to do things. Even if I lose and the way that I hear other people talk about it is different. They think that is weakness and that you just lose that way and it's more important to win the war then stand by these kinds of principles and they'll say, well that's very admirable but you're just gonna lose. 2 (51m 14s): And they might be right, might lose. Like cuz you see that we talked about this, you know, the people who come in strong and kind of weaponize these systems, they, they do better, right? They have bigger followings, they reach more people, they do win in some ways. And yet I'm not willing to sort of concede because I feel like if you win that way, you sort of lose. And so, you know, will I sort of be right but lose the war? Like maybe probably they might be right, they're probably right, but I'm just not willing to abandon these principles. 2 (51m 56s): And that's the thing too, I mean people say like is it better to reach many people versus, you know, I, I've had sometimes on social media, you know, where people will come at me very strong with strong disagreements and almost berated and I'm able to sort of convert them, you know, and sometimes convert them into followers cause they're so shocked that I'd engage with them in the way that I do. And then they're like, wow, I didn't, you know, and they see kind of the error. They first came in so hot with assumptions and they're able to sort of change and I'm like, oh, that's really cool, but I'm doing it on such a small scale and there's no way to scale that and there's no way for me to be able to be sane and also have that time to devote to that. 2 (52m 43s): And so in a way it's like is it worth, you know, getting one person on board, is it, does that do anything versus you know, how do you scale that? Is it possible to scale that? And maybe that's impossible. So I don't know. So do you know, I do look at other things like how do we, I think by giving people better tools to think for themselves, I think that's one way to maybe win the war. So say so to speak. Like, you know, I think getting kids to have better tools for critical thought and analyzing media. And so creating programs for that I think would be a more effective way to maybe win the war and stick by principles. 2 (53m 24s): So maybe thinking through things like that can scale, but still keep to principles. But I'm not willing to go to like that blunt tool, but maybe I'm wrong. 0 (53m 36s): Yeah, I struggle with this one too. And for me it's more like that's just not my speed. So for me, I'm not a professional at debates. I think maybe some people that is the best way for them to get their opinions across perhaps and like have the audience maybe decide for themselves because then you're presenting two stark opinions like, you know, opposing one another in such an obvious way that it kind of make, hopefully makes the listener challenge their own beliefs, like from a different vantage point. But for me it's not something I can do. I try to support creators that are like really being honest and authentic and leading more with compassion. 0 (54m 16s): But that is to say there are times where I do get excited about like a really good Debate like tonight. Do you know who Destiny is? 2 (54m 24s): Oh yeah, 0 (54m 25s): Yeah, yeah. So Destiny is debating Megan Murphy like right now and I Oh wow. Cannot wait for that one because I am, I really do not like that woman. Like I get like a bottle leader. Oh really? Yeah, she's just so rude and like intentionally offensive and we did a panel the whole time and she kept calling me a prostitute and I'm like, what? What? Like you're intentionally using the wrong language here to for your own agenda. And then I'm friends with Ayla and I really didn't like how she conducted herself on Benjamin Voices podcast. So Benjamin held a space and invited Ayla to come up and if anyone is given her even two minutes of like reading her feet or listening to her speech, she's a very Intelligent woman and very kind. 0 (55m 8s): And Megan is just so rude, so mean, so disparaging the entire conversation. And I was like, I just can't wait to watch Destiny Debate her because he is not gonna be as nice as Ayla and he is not gonna be as nice as I was. And that is a little bit of that more righteous anger that's just coming up. But I am at least aware of it, you know what I mean? Like I don't wanna do that. But there are instances where my humanity shows up and I'm like, I'm gonna tune into this Debate. 2 (55m 34s): That's funny because somebody on my Twitter, because a certain person had blocked me. And I said, and I think it's just by, you know, I don't think it was intentional but be posted, are you Megan Murphy adjacent? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he is like, well this person blocked her too. And I'm like, oh. So I went on her Twitter feed to see what it was and so I read and I think she was alluding to that conversation and I didn't like some of the things she said, but I've actually listened to her on a podcast and I thought she's pretty good in that podcast. But it wasn't, none of that kind of stuff came up. But I didn't like the tweets, so I don't know. And I've seen, so I guess it depends on what she's talking about, but I remember she was talking about sex work in the, in the tweets and I didn't like that. 2 (56m 25s): So what I don't like is when people sort of make it morally sort of like they take away the power of choice from the people who make that choice. Like, because you don't know what somebody's situation is and you're kind of making blanket statements. So I might not choose that space for myself. And maybe there are some people who have gotten into it for all sorts of, you know, maybe there were some poor reasons for why they've chosen that, right? Like the circumstances that have pushed them that way. But there are also people who've chosen it for other reasons. 2 (57m 7s): And I think when people kind of, it's that moralization and that judgement I, it does upset me when I hear that because it's like it's taking power away from people just because you have that judgement. So I think that that kind of disturbs me. So that was something that I did notice in the tweets that was like, and then, but also in terms of the debates, it's interesting cuz I have been in some spaces on Twitter where the people, it's just the environment and the people, there's no way to do it in this Nuanced way. And I do have to go hard at them and I am capable of that. I think I do it, I can do it, but I just don't like it as much. 2 (57m 49s): Right. I just, I'm not as happy with myself when I do it. I don't think it's quite as productive I guess. And it makes me feel not as good with myself when I do it. But there is a part of me that's like a little bit like cheeky and as cheeky as, and especially when I go at someone who I think is just kind of very arrogant and pompous and then I find it easier to do it. Like I won't go with someone who's like well spoken and just seems like kind and vulnerable. But if it's someone who's like has a million followers and is very arrogant and says BS and isn't very truthful, that's what I'm like the team do come out for 0 (58m 26s): Me. 2 (58m 28s): So it's easier for me to do that with someone like that. And the way you're kind of describing Megan at the moment in this, in the context of that Debate, I think that would be a little different. Yeah, 0 (58m 40s): It's just like taking away all like, like you said, the agency of the woman, it's almost in infantilizing us or treating us as subhuman and pretty little thing. You're not capable of making your own decisions. You have no idea that you're a victim of X, Y and Z and it's like absolutely not. Just because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean that it doesn't work for someone else. We ha our expressions vary across the board, right? We are, there is nothing more individual or more diverse or unique than you the individual. So to just prescribe something as this is right for all women, this is wrong and traumatic for all women. Well who are, who voted you Queen of the hill. No one said, I don't want you speaking for 2 (59m 21s): Me. Exactly that. Exactly. And I, and you know there, somebody posted a photo the other day was like of this not very attractive man who I guess is wealthy and this woman who is more attractive and she appears to be younger and people were making all these judging comments and saying how you know this person is, you know, she's just like marrying him for his money and he's marrying her for her looks. And honestly it's like just even that judgement, I just feel like who cares, right? Even if they are, cuz I think I posted, you know, it's honestly there's a level of being brave even being public like that. 2 (1h 0m 9s): Even if they are, even if the situation is accurately described and he's wealthy and she's you know, into his money and he's into her looks even then look at all these comments and having to put up with just these comments like having to walk into that really sucks. You know? So yeah, they're brave and but even then it's like you are take, I think they were making, I think he was being made to be worse. So I think there was this level of taking away the agency of the woman as she is the victim in this situation. And she's like, well a, she's, if she is in fact into his money, well she's making a choice and that's perfectly within her right to make a choice and B, she could very well be marrying him because she likes this personality and you don't know that and who are you to judge that. 2 (1h 1m 1s): And I just find that like the level of like moralizing that people go into and this is like across all spectrums is just kind of ridiculous And people pretend to be like, hey, like we are not supposed to judge people based on this and this. And then they go right into judging when it's convenient and socially, you know, accepted. And I just find that like really ridiculous and it's like there's all this like focus on women's Empowerment and then as soon as like the woman makes a choice that people think is morally like wrong, it's like suddenly all that Empowerment goes out the window. 2 (1h 1m 42s): Look like I said, my choices are different but other people's choices are not. And this whole like, yeah like the red Pill, I've just noticed like all these videos are trending about women and how the Body Count thing, oh my god, retroactive jealousy. That sounds healthy. Yeah. And I just like, so the women, the Body Count of the women is suddenly this like measure of like how worthy a woman is what, and it's like if a woman makes a choice to be with a billion men because she's like has low of self-esteem and yeah, okay well it's too bad that she's had that experience doesn't make her a low quality woman. 2 (1h 2m 32s): It's just that she's had maybe some issues that she has to work through and hopefully she does but doesn't diminish that person. But maybe she was with all these men because that's just what she wants and that doesn't make her alo. You know like so I just, but that's like this narrative right now. It is just, I just find that, you know, completely ridiculous. Just like it's okay for someone to have minimal partners. Like either way it's somebody's choice and it doesn't make them lesser or superior, it just, it's just part of their journey. And I find that to be like a very kind of repulsive thing that people and they do not hold weirdly enough, the same stare dirt to men. 2 (1h 3m 22s): Of course not. No, of course. And 0 (1h 3m 23s): Then there'll be some evolutionary biologic reason why, right? It's not because they're actually being misogynistic or sexist. It's because of, you know, God has a different standard for men. 2 (1h 3m 34s): Yeah. God has a different standard or just men, you know, biologically or wired or because they're meant to have lots of kids or yeah spread their seed and women, you know, because they get pregnant even though we have all these ways to prevent women from getting pregnant now. And also it's very easy to identify who the baby's father is. So none of these things really apply. Yeah. I just find it like I just know, I don't know, it just came up in my feed suddenly and then never stopped. So I just find it very disturbing. 0 (1h 4m 5s): Yeah, it's like not, it's not asking your mind to evolve past the caveman era. You're like well this makes sense because back when we were a caveman, okay well are you still one? Are you still one or no? Do we have modernity that can make us, now we have executive function, we've got birth control, women are making more money than men in a lot of industries. So like we don't need men for financial stability. So all of these reasons why it's wrong for women to be promiscuous are kind of off of the table. So now we can approach the conversation well like what does sexuality mean to you? What does sacred Union mean to you? And like let's just be honest about the conversation we're having and not just pose it on like our ancestors and then this is why we're supposed to behave in some certain way. 0 (1h 4m 49s): It's really frustrating cause I think a lot of those things that we're seeing right now, whether it's Body Count, whether it's what's a high value man, what's a high value woman first of all, what does value mean? And not to get all like post-modernist but like what are you asking of that relationship? Because if you are looking for a husband or a wife, that's gonna be different than if you're just looking for someone to date. Are you looking for someone to father or mother, your children? That's gonna be different but what are you looking right? You can't just describe value to an entire gender and say this is it. And if you don't make the mold that or meet the mold that you are no longer valuable, well who says right who's assigned? Like are you still single? Do you have kids? Because a lot of these like red pilled influencers are like you're awfully single. 0 (1h 5m 31s): You 2 (1h 5m 31s): Sure 0 (1h 5m 32s): Don't have a family. 2 (1h 5m 33s): They generally are. I wonder why, 0 (1h 5m 35s): Oh my gosh this one girl Layla, whatever Hepburn her and I and her producer got a little bit into it on Twitter because they were coming at me just saying, you know, I'm like this deplorable degenerate with no morals and I'm not high value in all of this. I'm like huh, she's pretty single. Right? I have two kids, we're talking about our third, I've been married for almost a decade. I make great money. I have several businesses. Like what value am I lacking? Can you just tell me from an objective standpoint, oh because my Body Count is higher than you want or because my career path is something that is a little bit on the outskirts and fringes of what's accepted by society. Those two dings, I'll take that all day. I have ultimate freedom and like a man that adores me. 0 (1h 6m 15s): So like his description to my value, the only one that matters. 2 (1h 6m 19s): Yeah her, I will say her tweets probably trigger me the most or one of the people who triggers me the most and they, she'll occasionally show up in my feed and I will occasionally like respond to the stuff that she pays just cuz it pisses me off. And then her followers will of course like talk. 0 (1h 6m 38s): Yeah, 2 (1h 6m 38s): Yeah. And it will always be very like personal too. Like yeah. So I find it, yeah this stuff turns me the other way around. It's the disingenuous stuff that that is very like clout chasing right And very false. Yeah. Very obvious and very false. And then she'll like, and I think some of the trees were like about Cardi B and well it's a lot of it is Andrew Tate content and she's 0 (1h 7m 6s): Her his number one fan. So we'll see how that number 2 (1h 7m 9s): One fan. Yeah. And I just, yeah that stuff, well what is there to say really it, I'm not a fan. I don't understand that mentality. I do and I don't, but I do like to push back on that. I think almost like I do find that a little bit fun because I know it's disingenuous so it's like not, I don't mind going a little harder on that kind of stuff because I don't think that I'm pushing back against the person who's being authentic. 0 (1h 7m 39s): Not at all. Yeah. She basically like took Andrew Tate's model and then just added the female lens to it and then that's the content she's pumping out. Cause she saw it worked for someone else. And to me I just, I'm like I wish people supported more people that were authentic for good or bad or indifferent. But like it's like you are not presenting yourself as a real person that I have no idea who you are, neither do your followers because you are so captured by this ideology. And then when it gets to this almost like this rev, like this revival of like puritanical Christian values, what we're now calling it red Pill with certain things and instead of saying, well actually I just don't support being gay, I don't support gay marriage, I don't support whatever it is, you're gonna say, well actually it's about pronouns. 0 (1h 8m 26s): Like no it's not. It's like that's not what, it's not like let's be honest about the conversation. And I think that's where nuance needs to come in or people just need to follow more small accounts, right? That are just looking at things maybe from the middle and not so captured and not like, I don't know, it's almost like we're giving bad behavior an excuse because the al like the ultra left has gone too far. So now we're like, well those guys are not as bad. 2 (1h 8m 54s): Yeah. Because the ultra left is not being honest about things and they are pushing people away. So what happened is like we ran into the arms of these like people who sort of embraced these conversations, but now I'm like seeing, oh yeah but now they've gone too far and it's like, so now it almost feels like really lonely again because like I don't wanna associate with people who just attack other people who are disingenuous, who are just using these narratives for their own benefit and gain. I wanted to be able to like address some of the issues that I was saying, which for the most part is like, look, even with pronouns, like I, I don't, I'm not a fan of pronouns, but I am a fan of gay people. 2 (1h 9m 43s): I mean I have no issue with gay people but like I just, but I wanna be able to have conversations around that, right? Including with, and I wanna include people who believe in pronouns. I just don't want us to have to fight about it. I don't want people to like accuse someone who doesn't agree with pronouns of being like, you know, a Nazi or whatever. Right, right. Like I want us to move past that and, but it's kind of become impossible so I don't know how to like move past that. Exactly. And so because of that it feels like now I'm like, I feel lonelier again. 2 (1h 10m 23s): You know, I think I started out feeling really lonely and but silent and now and then I was like, oh found my voice and there were these people who like were speaking out but then I feel like these people who were not so extreme in the past have gotten more extreme right. And I don't wanna go with them to these extremes. So I feel like kind of lonely again, you know? And some people haven't, you know, changed. I think some people stayed pretty, you know, like me and wanna find ways forward and are, I think I always say like humanist for human, I think that's a better approach. But like I don't know how to, but then the people who kind of pushed against these movements that are sort of more radical on the left I think have gotten more radicalized themselves. 2 (1h 11m 11s): And so now you've got a bunch, bunch of people screaming at each other that are no better than each other really. And now I'm like, okay, what do you, what do we do now? Because now this kind of middle and by middle I mean people just middle in terms of politics but just middle in terms of wanting a common ground they've, it feels like that's shrinking in some ways. And so I don't know what the way forward is. I wanna grow that middle and I wanna bring more people in into that. But it feels like it's getting harder. I didn't used to get a lot of hate. Like I really, I didn't and I feel like I'm getting a lot of hate lately. 0 (1h 11m 51s): I think modeling is the first step. So just being what it is you want to see and trying to be unshakable though, that is much easier said than done. I try not to read the comments because I feel like a different side of me shows up sometimes, depending on how inflammatory the comment is. Like most of them I'm pretty good with, I've done a lot of work to be able to kind of remain as zen as possible in certain circumstances. But there are definitely triggering points and people kind of take advantage of that. So just an opportunity for growth. I was talking to like a teacher of mine and he, I was giving him like a really dark example of something that people say to me online, which usually involves my children, which obviously for most people we know that is a no like no-fly zone. 0 (1h 12m 37s): But some people will go there and I'm like, well how do I wrap my head around these types of comments and how do I gain calm to the where this complete stranger isn't affecting my mood and my state. Like they're changing my state from across the world or wherever it is that they're hitting send. And he's like, you just have to look at it as whoever writes something to that level is clearly mentally unwell and just look at it as that and you know, brush it off like that is not a mentally stable person so the last thing you wanna do is engage with that. And that actually kind of helped me. I didn't think I was gonna get so much out of my, I talked to him today about it, that conversation. 0 (1h 13m 19s): But it made me like, well duh. Yeah you, there's some people you can't argue with and there's some people that just aren't really participating in the reality that I'm participating in and I just need to acknowledge that and move on and not really give it any more energy or life than it deserves. 2 (1h 13m 36s): Yeah, that's really great advice. And I've noted that for myself as well. Sometimes it's a little hard to ignore but I've been figuring out how to balance that kind of stuff. So some of it is just so insane that I go and I try to find a humor in it. That's another way for me that I deal with it. I think originally when I was being attacked, when, you know, when I first had my whole experience and experience specifically with the idea of cancel culture, you know the messages that people were sending me, what really turned it around for me is not taking it so close to heart was like, okay, if I was in the same position and I disagreed with me completely like they do, what would I do? 2 (1h 14m 19s): How would I behave? But once I realized that, I was like, oh yeah, okay, I would never do any of these things so these people should not be taken seriously. That was a complete game changer. So that has really helped me. And then later on now I get messages and like I don't, I'm not thick skinned but I am able to kind of, you know, ignore some of this stuff, not take it too close to heart cuz it's like I don't know these people but I think sometimes the amount of it can get to me and just the fact that people are so hateful. So I think sometimes that does affect me and then I'm trying to figure out okay, how much of that do I take on? 2 (1h 15m 3s): And then I wonder how much interaction do I have with people because it's like increased and I'm trying to be present for people because there's a level of interaction and authenticity that I wanna have. But also, you know, it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of emotion. And I also remember there was a time where I was like too scared. I wrote to a very prominent person anonymously cuz I was so scared at the time that anybody would even find out that I wrote to this person and he wrote me back and that meant a lot to me at the time, the advice that he'd given to me. So I'm like okay well I remember that and it meant so much to me at the time and so when people write to me I wanna be there for them but at the same time it's like that takes a lot of time and energy and how many people can I be there for? 2 (1h 15m 55s): So navigating that and also having my dms open means that while you get nice messages but in really thought ones, yeah and you get sometimes advi, you know, people asking for advice but you also get people sending you horrible things sometimes like really horrible things. And so I'm trying to figure out how to navigate all that and like very much all work in progress. 0 (1h 16m 20s): Yeah cuz you can't be all things for all people and that's not your responsibility. And I think it's great that someone was able to offer you advice that someone that you had admired and wanting to be that role model. But I think this is where you have to kind of trust your gut and your intuition and maybe you'll feel a calling to open up your DMS one day and scroll and like one person will be calling to you and maybe do it that way. That's kind of h my approach cause I'm very rarely in my dms sometimes I'm like I should check them and then sometimes there's someone really cool in there that you know has something to say or I has a question and I'm like, I'm really glad I did that. But in my earlier years when I would try to win people over individually or try to offer them light or advice, it's just so draining because they are taking So I think that there has to be just a, a real self-awareness around that so you stay healthy and happy and whole because it's so easy when you are someone that's putting so much of yourself out there online, it's very easy for people to take advantage of that and just take so it's healthy boundaries and you're like the only person that can set those. 2 (1h 17m 27s): Yeah and I definitely need to be better at that because I think some people have gotten a little bit past my boundaries where I'm like, I don't want like, like I've hesitated now to even respond to anyone because as soon, cuz now like if you respond to people they can send you more messages and and so, and the problem there is that you don't wanna ignore people but at the same time they're gonna send you more messages and then they're gonna think you're friends with them and I don't wanna be just cause I can't handle that much, you know? So, and you still wanna treat people as people and you want them to have a sense that they matter. 2 (1h 18m 7s): So it's like, it's just, but it feels like a bit much cuz I'm barely handling my own life right now. So it's a challenge and I think the advice I've been getting from people is like, this is not sustainable. So I think I should take that advice. Yeah, 0 (1h 18m 21s): Well I think the video content you're doing is a great first step because it's a wonderful way to present talking points and even just like advice giving through storytelling to people. So if they're really trying to get your perspective on a problem that they're going through or a question that they might have just by consuming your content, hopefully they'll get the answer. So it doesn't necessarily need to be this direct one-on-one interaction. It's like they, if they trust you and your perspective then just by following you and consuming your content you can be really helpful. 2 (1h 18m 52s): Yeah and I tried to do like a stream once, I felt so awkward doing it, but I collected a bunch of questions from people and it was just about, you know, journalism. But I think something like that, like every once in a while could work as well. But I noticed like people do like these one-on-one interactions and it's like, it's just, that is definitely I think impossible to sustain. But like you said, once it a BleuIn, maybe you see that one DM and you'll answer that because it just feels like the right thing to do in that moment. 0 (1h 19m 22s): Yeah. Well I could do this for hours more with you. I really enjoyed talking with you and I hope I can have you back on in the future. I have to go breastfeed a baby, but otherwise time would be limitless. But I'm always like, okay, when is that time up? But before we take off, can you tell the listeners where they can follow you, how they can support you and maybe any projects that you have coming up? 2 (1h 19m 44s): Sure. Well I, first of all, I really enjoyed talking to you as well, so thank you so much for having me on. I it's, it was a, I didn't even know what we would talk about, but we went all over the place and I really enjoyed it. But for the listeners, so a few places that you can follow me, one is my Twitter, which I will come back to. I'm taking a slight break, but by the time this podcast we'll be out. I'm sure I'll be back and addicted as ever. It's Mysterious Kat, K A t and my, which is also listed on there, but it's random minds.com. Those are sort of the main two places. And I also have a YouTube channel where I have this podcast that I recently launched called Forbidden Conversations and that is Random Minds Channel on YouTube. 2 (1h 20m 30s): So those are the best places to find me and I hope you do. 0 (1h 20m 34s): Awesome. Yeah. And I will link everything below in the show notes for everyone. And again, this was amazing and I hope I can talk to you soon. 2 (1h 20m 42s): Thank you. And I do have a project which I'll announce soon, so keep an eye 0 (1h 20m 46s): Out. Stay tuned. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks everybody. 2 (1h 20m 50s): Thank you. 0 (1h 20m 51s): Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. If you want to support the podcast, you can check out our sponsor below. You can also go to buy me a coffee.com/ Candice and if it's been a while since you've left a five star review, please do that. It also helps with charting. We are the little podcast that could and it takes all of the support to grow, grow, grow. So I will see you guys next week and thank you for tuning in.