#83 Elise Michaels - Men's Mental Health

0 (0s): The way a masculine man can maintain his masculinity while in relationship with a fe, a masculine woman, is to take lead without putting the, A lot of men will do this. They'll ask her, what do you need from me? Or what can I do for you? Or you know, they're gonna give her the responsibility of deciding how to unburden her. So be a witness to where the burden is. Be a witness to how you can actually participate in leading and just do that thing without asking. 2 (35s): Elise, thank you so much for joining the Chatting with Candace podcast. I am thrilled to have you on and as I was just saying, I really think that the listeners are gonna get a lot of utility out of this conversation. 0 (46s): Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm hap happy to be here. 2 (49s): Can you give the audience just a little bit of an introduction about you and the work that you're doing and how you found yourself in the space of being a, a coach to men? 0 (59s): Absolutely. So I started my business just before the pandemic happened and I was actually trying to be a spiritual coach for women and trying to get clients by posting vi video content on LinkedIn. But the only people who reached out to me were actually men. And so that was kind of the start of the journey of exploring how to help a different gender. What were their problems, what were their issues, how did they learn best? And through that I really cultivated, you know, a a strategy just for men. And I saw that they didn't have a lot of support, as much support as women did. And so that's kind of how I got there. 2 (1m 35s): I think that makes a lot of sense cause a lot of your content does have a spiritual undertone to it and I really like a lot of the language that you use. It resonates with me a lot because I love getting into the Polarity between men and women and like that divine, masculine and feminine. I actually just posted a clip before you hopped on today from a previous guest and we were talking about that and his example was J lo at the Grammys where that clip that went viral where she was kind of berating Ben and he was just like sitting there just defeated and it's actually already getting so much feedback. And I would be really curious about your perspective when it comes to this Polarity and being able to kind of manage it from a male's perspective. Like advice maybe that you give some of your clients and how do you navigate this new modern re re relationship that we find ourself in where women are leading with their masculine and maybe not being able to turn that off when they're home with their lover? 0 (2m 28s): Yeah, this is such a juicy topic and there's so much kind of question around it and, and so much Polarity just in how we feel. I think what a lot of people should understand is that everybody has masculine and feminine energy. It's a balance in both men and women, but you're gonna have more of one or the other. And usually if you're born male, you're gonna have more masculine. If you're born female, you're gonna have more feminine just kind of how it works. Not always, but what's happened is with the independent movement of women, we have pushed ourselves into the provider roles into a more masculine role. 0 (3m 8s): And what most of it is stemming from is actually fear. It's not necessarily just masculine energy, it's the fear that no one will take care of me. The fear if I let go of this independence, I won't have rights anymore. The fear that if I rely on a man, I'm gonna be abandoned. And so a lot of men are witnessing the masculine energy in women in what they're doing instead of nurturing her to allow the feminine to come out, they're responding in true masculine form, which is offense. I challenge your masculine with my masculine. So it's kind of fighting fire with fire. And then they're kind of going away from the women saying, no women wanna be loyal today. No women want to take on the feminine today. 0 (3m 50s): And they're kind of running away from that. And I would suggest if you really wanna be in your masculine, create safe spaces for the feminine to blossom and that's how you're gonna see a surrender of so much masculine energy in the women that you're around because they feel safe enough that they can trust you to take the leap. 2 (4m 7s): So is there a way that you can start to kind of crack open that heart center for men to be able to hold a space or to be vulnerable or to be able to connect? Because I do agree, I think you see a lot of that like power. It's like that, you know, when you push each other around, you just are met with more force. So it's like, like you just said, kind of villainizing women as a whole instead of saying like, no, what she really needs is to be like embraced in this moment, but because they're disconnected oftentimes with their emotions, they can't recognize that cue where it's very uncomfortable. So they'd rather fight than connect. 0 (4m 44s): Right? Absolutely. 2 (4m 46s): Yeah. So like I guess do you have like how do you get a man comfortable with feeling or with emotions? Like what, what are, how do you, how do you lead that horse to water? 0 (4m 56s): So in order for him to create a safe space for the feminine, I don't necessarily think he has to get in touch with his emotions because that's when we see him going into more of the feminine. This is actually what happens in relationships too because she takes on so much of the masculine and is so hard strung on it. Relationships need balance. So the man will subconsciously start taking on the feminine and start, you know, diving into the emotional side. And like you said, most men aren't taught really how to get in touch with their feelings, how to control it. So it's very confusing for both people. The way that a masculine man can maintain his masculinity while in relationship with a fe, a masculine woman is to take lead without putting the, a lot of men will do this, they'll ask her, what do you need from me or what can I do for you? 0 (5m 43s): Or you know, they're gonna give her the responsibility of deciding how to unburden her. So be a witness to where the burden is. Be a witness to how you can actually participate in leading and just do that thing without asking. Right. And this is kind of the argument between separating domestic household chores is a lot of men are like, well I wanna help around the house. She just doesn't tell me what to do. And it's like she doesn't wanna tell you what to do, she wants you to witness the chaos that's going on and take control of it and put an end to it. So whether you wanna clean or not, get somebody to do it, just, just handle it in whatever way you can. But don't also put the, now the pressure on her because you're still asking her to lead and that's pushing her further into her masculine. 2 (6m 26s): Yeah, I've been digesting a lot of content when it comes to like dominance play. So a lot of people using kink to kind of reestablish, I guess Polarity within the relationship and where they want each other to be. And one person that was talking about it was saying this book that she read tells women not to even answer the question of like, which shirt should I wear today? Like if a man comes in and he's like, well which, which shirt should I wear? Which tie should I wear? Because it's like leaving the decision making to her. And obviously, at least for me, I think that's like a very extreme example of, of not letting her take, make decisions. But it was just interesting how micro it can get within the relationship says to like, who's leading the, the charge or steering the ship or whatever analogy you kind of wanna use. 2 (7m 12s): So for me personally, I think that's a little bit too much. I don't, I don't mind answering like the tie question, but it is to say we don't, if you want a man to be leading with a masculine and like you don't want to be the leader of the relationship, then you do have to kind of be more present and like see what needs to be done rather than asking. Cause I see a lot of that with men, especially men that are, are in relationships with very high power women. It's like, well what I don't know what to do. Well what should I make for lunch and what, how can I help? I don't know how to do the dishes, I don't know how to do this, that and the other. It's like, make a decision dude. Like just do something, start with one small dis decision to move forward. 0 (7m 50s): Oh my god, indecisiveness is the death of masculinity. Like the second that you're like, I don't know, even with little things like I think the example that you gave was a bit of an extreme because actually when a man is asking for your opinion on his style or something like that, he, it means he cares about your opinion, but it's not like, Hey, can you lay my clothes out for me? Or Hey, can you choose which lunch I need to pack? Like that's a totally different thing where he's pushing her then into the mother role. But I, I totally agree with you that I I think even better too as, as opposed to just like letting him lead, inviting him to lead. I saw a really great video by Steven speaks where he's talking about a lot of women now are demanding, not inviting and demand puts up a man's offense and invitation allows him to come forward and nurture you to lead you. 0 (8m 45s): So the example that he gave was something like, hey, you gotta take me out on a date and you gotta take care of me and do all this. I need my man to do this for me. And it's kinda like, whoa, whoa, I don't wanna do that. You know, like you're so, you're so hard, you're, it's aggressive, you're not soft at all. As opposed to saying something like how would you feel about taking care of the woman you love? How would you feel about, you know, treating your woman to a date? It's just like a totally different energy and it's an invitation, it's not a command it it's an invitation. So inviting him to be a leader in your relationship as opposed to demanding him and saying that you have to wear the pants is like you subconsciously wanting to control the relationship and wearing the pants yourself. 2 (9m 30s): Hmm. That's interesting. Do you find that there's like a recurring theme or like a common trauma that you see with a lot of your male clients? Whether it's, so my guess would be like healing the mother wound specifically when it comes to like feminism. And I think we're seeing a shift in that now, which is like blame the guy for everything and we give so much, we prop up women so much that we're not remembering our men and our boys almost like that's what it feels like to me as like a, a mom of two boys. It's like the future is female, it's all of these things for women but there's no resources or encouragement for men anymore. And then the argument is like, well they've always had it. 2 (10m 12s): It's like, no my kids are three they, what do you mean they've always had it like you can't retroactively go back from maybe bad behavior in the past and then punish the current generation of young boys for that. That makes no sense to me. 0 (10m 23s): Hundred percent, a hundred percent. I can totally agree with that. And I would al also say it's not like they were encouraged before or you know, treated kindly like we weren't as conscious, we weren't as open and everything was just rough and tough. It's kind of like we've just awoken now to the fact that all of us can have feelings and emotions and we're always trying to solve the problem by punishment. And punishment is not something that invites love or peace or togetherness between the two genders, which is really what we need in order to create the understanding that we desire. So I completely agree with that. 2 (10m 60s): Have you seen that exercise that was going around where they had men bowing to women and it was like, wow. Yeah, so sounds scary. So it was kind of to quote like heal the, that masculine wound and to make women feel safer I guess and to like heal that energetically. I had an issue with it because I'm, I, I don't agree with making again, like the retroactive apology or making yourself small to compensate for someone else's secure sense of se security. I think that's more internal and no one else can kind of give that sense of safety to you. But again it kind of goes to pitting the sexes against one another. So do you have advice or are you ever in a situation where you're trying to help a man get out of a Toxic relationship where like the woman is constantly berating and like doesn't give him space or holds him accountable for things that maybe he didn't do but like men in general have done in the past? 0 (11m 57s): Yeah, so a lot of the work that I do just focuses on going back to self and what we can control because no matter what we can't control our partners. We can't control society or what's going on and it doesn't benefit us to really worry about the trends or what society sees men like as a whole because there are still pockets of acceptance, there are still pockets of love and it's up to you to find out where you fit and find out what you actually wanna invite into your life if you're in a Toxic relationship, taking on the personal responsibility of what led me to wanna be with this person, like what attracted me here, what part of my past said this is a good fit, this is a match. And it's usually some type of insecurity or wound like you said the mother wound that you know, there's, there's an epidemic also of single mothers and with single motherhood you have to take on the masculine because you're trying to survive, right? 0 (12m 49s): And so a lot of men are raised by single mothers, seeing them be independent, seeing them not have to rely on a man seeing them with that hard energy so they don't recognize the soft feminine And while they may have a lot of respect for women, they're looking for that hard masculine, but hard masculine women don't usually know how to embrace their soft feminine. So they're combative all the time, constantly challenging, constantly trying to control, constantly berating them and telling them what's wrong. So it's kind of like this hard dynamic of loving and respecting the mother and wanting to find someone just like mom but actually finding out that may not actually be a good partner because mom never felt safe. 2 (13m 27s): And that's gotta be so hard to navigate because again, like the, the climate that we are raising girls in right now is to kind of be be all things at once so there's no room for someone else to kind of compliment that or if there is, again there is this fear. I think you nailed it. There is this fear that if I relinquish any part of my, my perceived control or dominance that like I'm at risk of what maybe it's financial insecurity or me being abandoned or right. Like we have our own stuff that we're dealing with. So to allow that space is really difficult. So findings, another healed like another healed person just seems impossible right now. 2 (14m 9s): Especially because that we're not meeting it face-to-face like everything is on apps. I think one of the main questions I get from a lot of young male viewers is like where do I meet a woman? Like where do I go out and romantically meet a woman cuz the apps aren't for me. And I don't know if you have that question a lot or if you have any advice for young male listeners as to like where do I even look for love? 0 (14m 29s): Well I think a good place to start is by acknowledging that you're not a victim of like where, where do I meet a woman? Like go outside, you know like you, the thing is you're operating from a place of fear of like the apps aren't for me and no women want this. Like okay well then you're just trapping yourself because you're not trying. And the thing is we have to be willing to pay the price of Rejection in order to get what we want because there are women out there who are so conscious and so open and so loving and they want men to speak to them. But a lot of men are afraid because like you said, like this whole feminist movement and don't talk to me and like oh my god I was minding my own business. Yeah you have to be willing to pay the price but you can actually navigate the energy of those people in public when you yourself are open. 0 (15m 15s): If you yourself project I'm in a space to find the right woman for me, I'm a conscious being who's gonna online correctly, then you're gonna start going to those places, you're gonna start going to retreats, you're gonna start going to conferences where maybe these people are more common, more prominent and you can talk to those people, right? But if you start to go after the people who you always did maybe and bars are always such a great example because it's just, it's just a place where un unconscious people tend to gather the most frequent, right? So going there usually always breeds negative interactions. If you continue to try to get your conscious individual there, it's probably not gonna happen. 0 (15m 55s): So you have to give yourself the best chance of finding someone but it's not gonna help you by saying, oh my god there's no one out there. It's so hard. It's as hard as it was before. You're just not trying. 2 (16m 9s): Yeah, I don't think men get enough credit because it, I would be single forever if it was up to me to like initiate some kind of conversation with a total stranger all on my own. I would be really, really terrified of that exchange then constantly being rejected and then having to deal with people that are maybe a little bit aggressive. I was watching this podcast and it was talking about how and how not to approach women and basically the one woman was like, just don't approach me in public ever. How dare. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like that's, and she'll 0 (16m 42s): Probably be single for life, right? You know that's, but this is the thing thing is like if you just talk to people like a normal human being, if someone gets mad at that, you shouldn't be taking that as a Rejection, right? Like I don't think that anybody should be taking any social interaction if they don't wanna get to know you more, they don't wanna give you the number. I don't think you should take that as a Rejection, just take it as like, okay, not for me. Right? because they can't possibly reject you when they don't know you. Maybe they're having a bad day, maybe they just don't wanna talk to anybody. Maybe they just have a boyfriend, right? That can't possibly be a Rejection of you. But yeah, it, it's only something that most men have to go through, right? 0 (17m 23s): But I think also that's the way of the hunt, like the masculine energy. Sometimes it works out where the, the woman like drops the ball first or jumps on him first. But in my personal life I've seen that if the men is going after you first it works out better. 2 (17m 41s): Yeah. They kind of like lead. 0 (17m 43s): Yeah. I mean if they lead right. Exactly. 2 (17m 47s): Hey everyone, this is new. So we are taking a quick break for a couple of sponsors. How exciting is that that we have a couple sponsors for the podcast? So this is new, please don't skip it, just listen, it's cool stuff I promise. So my first one is a small company called Ragnar's Rocks and I'll make sure I have the link below. As you know I love crystals and I get made fun of for it all of the time, but I'm, I'm not gonna change my ways and I'm gonna stand by it. I truly believe in them and I think that they're beautiful so sue me. But he sent me, I mean how incredible is that? He sent me this beautiful amethyst, I've got this really cute rose quartz skull. 2 (18m 29s): All this is on my table you can't see, but when I start doing two cameras you'll be able to see my little setup and this cute little crystal Buddha, how adorable is he? I these bracelets are from there. I mean I was really stoked to have him as a sponsor because this is right up my alley. So if you're into any crystals or you just wanna check out the website, it's ragner rocks.com and I'll link that below And the last affiliate last sponsor, please don't skip, this one's a good one. So we all know the benefits of fasting. Well my husband and I have used this company ProLon actually a couple of times. So I was really excited that they wanted to be an affiliate of the podcast. 2 (19m 11s): So if you wanna try ProLon, it's a fasting mimicking diet so you get all the benefits of a water fast and it's a lot easier cuz you get this delicious food instead of having to completely eat nothing. So you can try ProLon for $150 with the code. Candace, some of the claims for, and I mean I say claims but I'm going off of a script guys, 60% of people that completed the fast had better energy, mental clarity and focus. You'll definitely shed some lbs. I felt a ton lighter after doing it. It's cool to do difficult stuff and obviously fasting is not easy so it's kind of cool to see how you can kind of push it and get through something that you thought you might not be able to do. 2 (19m 53s): It's a lot easier than just doing a water cleanse. And again, like you, I think the average here, yeah people lose an average of 5.7 pounds and 1.6 inches off of their waistline. So soon as I'm done breastfeeding, I'm doing one of these and Eric's supposed to be starting anytime now, so we'll see when he decides to start. So I'll link that below Again, if you wanna try ProLon, you can try it for 150 bucks. Use code Candace and let's return to the episode. So when it comes to men's health and like finding yourself in this like men's coaching space, there's still like this very big barrier when it comes to social Stigma and men asking for help. 2 (20m 33s): And for some reason it seems to be like a systemic problem, right? Like we have, if you go to a university, there's often a ton of programs for young women and it's often free and we don't have that for men, but it's, we're almost pretending that like men don't suffer from any mental illness or depression or anxiety or lack of purpose or like they don't need assistance in, in feeling essentially. Which is crazy because if you look at the statistics, men are almost four times more likely to commit suicide. So if you have that alarming number on that side, why are we not providing resources for them? 0 (21m 7s): I cannot answer this question, I dunno why, right? Like my whole career is providing resources for men to get help. I think it's just the swing of the pendulum when people feel like one race or gender or system hasn't been addressed, they totally swing into the extreme and kind of ignore the opposite. And for so long, women didn't have rights and we couldn't vote. And now we're just like in the extreme. And I think that we are seeing the pendulum swing back down into some type of middle ground because there is a lot of effort I think now in the men's community to get them resources to acknowledge their suffering, to acknowledge that they're not just robots meant to go to war and to provide and you know, just to be dads that are like not dads. 2 (21m 54s): Yeah it's, it's crazy to me we've kind of treated them as dispensable for a really long time. It's yeah, go put your life on the line for our freedoms, go serve the country. But when you come back there is no integration, there's no therapy provided, there's no healing of P T S D. There's no like, there's no connection. There's no acknowledgement of what they did. And then it's, I don't wish I had the numbers written down. I was, I meant to write everything maybe, you know, but like the, the percentage of men that come back from serving that are at risk for either becoming an alcoholic, becoming homeless, becoming suicidal, having lack of purpose, lack of connection, it's, it's insane. And then they, they they're left out there without a paddle. 0 (22m 36s): Absolutely. It's, it's absolutely a high rate. Like I said, I definitely think that there's more programs being done now, but the complaints that I hear is it doesn't have very good quality or there's a huge wait list or it's not exactly, they don't feel understood, right? It just feels kind of like an initiative was made to put it there but they don't feel heard or understood or listened to. So it's kind of up to them to get their own support, which is, which is really sad because it's just, it's just not as much as women. 2 (23m 3s): Yeah. I was reading through some of your comments and one of them was, I wish it was a really unique story but it wasn't, I've heard it quite a bit. Let me see if I can find where I put it. And The, Boy Crisis, I don't, did you ever read that book? 0 (23m 17s): The Boy Crisis? No. 2 (23m 19s): Highly recommend it. Highly recommend it. It's the story that is oldest time where a man is working like 16 hours a day to provide for his family. He thinks he's doing the right thing. So he's not spending a ton of time with his wife or his kids, but he is the sole breadwinner and he's doing all of these things. The wife wants a a private school so then he's working overtime, she wants a bigger house and then he takes the promotion that requires him to travel more and all of these decisions that he's making for the family are actually creating more of a disconnect between him and the family. So eventually what ends up happening is she slaps him with a Divorce order and he feels like it's outta nowhere and then he gets to see the kids maybe six days a month if he's lucky and then pay for child support from a shitty apartment while she keeps everything else. 2 (24m 6s): And then they're left in this place of eventually with for some suicidal ideation because they're like, I, I lost everything overnight and I don't know what happened. So do you have I guess advice or just like what to look out for when making, like when this happens for men or like how to maybe see the telltale signs, like what do you do for when you're in this situation? Cuz it's a nightmare. Like that would be an absolute night, absolute nightmare. But for a lot of men this happens a lot. 0 (24m 39s): Absolutely. And it's really sad because the judicial system is never in favor of men, which is really sad because for obvious reasons, I mean before anybody gets married I just say have a Prenup first of all because if you don't you're subjecting yourself to every state's Prenup. And it's not about like you don't trust that your partner's gonna be with you forever. It's just things happen that we can't predict and you never wanna fall victim to things that you could have you know, prevented. So that's number one. Number two is like always check in with your partner and never make any assumptions. That's number one. Always check in with your partner, never make any assumptions and always check in with yourself and never forego your own needs because you think that's what everybody else wants. 0 (25m 22s): Cuz this is what happens with a lot of men. I see they, they don't stick up for themselves, they just kind of take it. They don't ask for what they want and they are kind of suffering for years and years and years and then they still get hit with a Divorce and they're like, oh I just sacrificed everything. I never, I never asked for anything. It was always what they wanted. And that's not what your partner usually wants. Your partner wants you to be a partner, your partner wants you to stand up for yourself and to ask for your needs to be met. And if they don't find that out early on during dating, right, because then that's not a partner, that's someone who just wants you to do for them and And that's not love. 2 (25m 58s): No, and the legal system when it comes to Divorce is just a total racket. I've had Greg Eon and he's like a really big men's advocate when it comes to the Divorce system and just like the way that the attorneys practice, I didn't know until someone that I know did this and this is crazy. So they're, you'll see advertising and it'll say men's only law practice, like they only take male clients. And at first you're like, well why are they doing that? That doesn't make sense. It's because women, we gossip and we share information and we're privy to like a lot of DR just like each other's relationship drama. So we share things that men maybe don't share with each other. So if you take an appointment with a Divorce attorney, they can see your, your spouse, like it's off the table even if it was only a consult, they can't see your spouse. 2 (26m 47s): So these women will hop to different attorneys and just book individual consults that way. They, they take all the good lawyers off the table for the husband and the husband's left with nothing. So that's why there's like this emerging market for men's only attorneys because this is, this happened so many times and the dudes are like, well I have no one to represent me or I have no one of quality rep to represent me because she booked all of these appointments. So things like that is just alarming and we don't hear about it and then you get left with what blows my mind is that a lot of these women are doing it at the expense of their kids. Like we're pretending that the, because your romantic relationship didn't work out that all of a sudden they're a bad father and that's not the case. Yeah, that's not the case at all. 2 (27m 27s): Like I don't know a lot of guys that are like, I don't wanna see my kid. Six days is plenty and we know the statistics of a dad not being in the home or a dad not being involved or detrimental to the outcome of kids after eight. So why aren't we doing what's best for the kids instead of letting like this romantic drama play out at the expense of society as a whole. It's crazy, right? 0 (27m 47s): There are definitely women who use their own pain as a weapon and they want payback and they don't care if the child is being hurt and sometimes they even, you know, I think they even trick themselves to thinking, well because he hurt me, he doesn't deserve to be a father and it's not even about the child really getting back at the dad as much as possible, even if he didn't do anything necessarily wrong. And and honestly like relationships are relationships and there's so much chaos and there's two sides to every story. And even if a father does do something wrong and I'm not defending people who do things wrong like infidelity or anything like that, but it is significant, the presence of a father in a child's life. 0 (28m 30s): The difference of how the child turns out. So if he is a good father despite the shitty things that he's done, you still should let him be a father for the sake of your child because a masculine presence is really necessary for the development of a child. And courts don't give a shit about that most of the time. 2 (28m 51s): No they don't. I wish I, there's, I wanna say her last name, it's maybe it's like Marilyn something, she's a, you can probably look her up. She's a really famous attorney and she represents just men and she goes through like the questioning of how like how the question the parents during custody battles and the questions that they ask like who's the pediatrician, who's the doctor? Like what's the name of the teacher? These kinds of things. And she's like, well that's not how a lot of men connect like that. That's just not their gate. But if you were to ask who's the favorite superhero or what's the favorite game that you play or what was the last imaginative thing that you guys did? Whether you were like playing like fort or whatever and the dad would be able to like answer all of those questions but the mom wouldn't. 2 (29m 34s): So it's like we're almost like it's set up from the beginning. I'm like, I dunno, it just really frustrates me because as an adult now looking back at how my parents kind of went through their Divorce, it was very much like that stereotypical thing where it was just drama played out at the expense of the kids. So I'm glad that there's some people out there talking about it and giving men an opportunity to show their side of the story and like validate that they also are human beings and not robots and have emotions and have mental health needs and it's totally okay to ask for help. 0 (30m 5s): Yeah, yeah absolutely. And I think it's also good just to say that not all divorces are like this. I don't wanna like scare people because at the end of the day you have to do what you have to do. I don't advise staying in Toxic relationships or even staying in a marriage that is really not working because that's not beneficial for the kids either. And like my parents got divorced when I was in third grade and as far as I remember it wasn't super messy And I actually lived with my dad most of the time. My mom kind of let us choose whatever we wanted to do. And so there are situations where things can be peaceful and I just, I just stress that whatever outcome you want to focus on that and to try to nurture that environment, don't just assume that everything has to be Toxic and horrible and awful. 0 (30m 49s): Try to create peace within your life wherever possible. 2 (30m 52s): Do you have a lot of male clients that are trying to like co-parent after a breakup or a Divorce? 0 (30m 58s): A lot of my clients have older children that that's not necessary. Okay. Or their children are so young that they, they're still married and they're not in the Divorce process yet. So not necessarily, but it, it's happened a few times where they're going through a Divorce and they have to figure it out and it's, it's heartbreaking for both people cuz even if it's not working out, you know, you, you have a home that's no longer together, 2 (31m 23s): Do you? 0 (31m 24s): It's never easy. 2 (31m 25s): No, definitely not. I guess to kind of like further elaborate on that, I, I don't know if these statistics, statistics are like still relevant but I believe it was like 90% of all divorces are initiated by the woman and then when it does come to custody it's something in the US like 10%, it's like 10% of the time the man gets custody of the kids. So I think to highlight the importance of a Prenup is really important because you're making that decision when you have a clear mind, when you're in love, when you're your best versions of each other and you're like, listen, this is what is gonna be best for everybody if this doesn't work out. Instead of being in like the thralls of emotion and then you're at the whim of that so you're not necessarily thinking clearly or your partner's not thinking clearly. 2 (32m 7s): So it's like what is gonna actually be fair? Let's take the emotion out of it and just to protect yourself. I mean if Divorce is 50% then you wanna, you do wanna be smart about that, right? If there's like 50% chance of you getting struck by lightning when you went outside, like you would be prepared. You're not just gonna be like, well just see what happens. I'm optimistic. 0 (32m 26s): Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Do 2 (32m 29s): You do couples counseling at all or do you just primarily stick with men's counseling? 0 (32m 34s): I'm just only a men's coach but a lot of times they ask me for relationship things and I've offered for the men's partners to come in or even to coach them individually. But usually in those relationships the women are very resistant. Those are usually the more Toxic relationships. So it's never happened. But usually we do really, really well with just the men changing their energy, changing their dynamic and their response that it subconsciously changes the energy of the partner as well. So not 2 (33m 3s): Always necessary. Yeah. So by working on themselves it's automatically creating like some kind of change in a positive direction in the relationship. Whether they're able to like recognize it's time to leave or it just improves over time and development. 0 (33m 17s): E every time I always tell my clients we're only gonna work on ourselves, but you will see every relationship around you change because as soon as your beliefs change, your actions change. And when your actions change change you show up differently to the world and the world sees you differently. 2 (33m 33s): Do you have a lot of men that are trying to like define their role? Like whether it's like their role in society, their role in a relationship? Like where where like what is my function? Like what is my, you know, like what am I supposed to kind of be doing right now? Because we see men that aren't performing as well in higher education, they're not getting promoted as much. Again, we like the, their female partner are outearning them. So it's like well how can I be of service? Cuz I think that's a really masculine trait is like how can I be of service? So maybe like providing them different outlets to discover like their passion or what they're good at, skillset, things like that. 0 (34m 11s): Yeah. I experience a lot of men trying to figure out what their purpose and their passion is not necessarily combating like the provider role because my clients are business owners so it's kind of like they've got that covered but they're like, now what? Like I've made the money and like I just don't feel like I, it matters, right? And so diving into that is kind of also realizing that there's a point in time where a man creates a, a mountain that he has to climb, which is his goal, right? And he usually might take a decade or decades to get there because this is the goal that he's working towards. So I'm gonna be a provider, I'm gonna get a family, I'm gonna do this, that, and this that. And once he reaches at it about 40 years old, all of a sudden he is like, holy, should I climb the mountain? 0 (34m 54s): What now? So at that point I, it's like we have to make a new mountain. So I say get creative, explore outside of yourself. What are new goals that you can set that are so high it's now worthy of achieving? And that might might be just reexamining your belief system around what your role was and what it could now possibly be like, what is the new dynamic? How can you get more in depth with where you're at? 2 (35m 16s): So is that what the Midlife crisis is? It's I've attained all of my preset goals and then now what? And then kind of like this lost energy. 0 (35m 26s): Yeah. I find the Midlife crisis to be a man awakening to himself and his own needs, his own desires, his own wants. Because we talked about for so many years a kind of self-sacrifice. I find that men don't usually choose jobs that they necessarily like. They choose what pays the most and then they do that for a long time, long time, long time. And then they realize like, oh my god, I haven't enjoyed like 30 years of my life. Like Gary v says, eat shit for 30 years and then reap their rewards. Like that's what a lot of men do. They just eat shit for 30 years. But like for 30 years you wake up and you realize you weren't happy for 30 years and then you're like, what do I do now and how do I find happiness? And what even is that to me? So they have a crisis by a car and they realize, oh my god, that wasn't it. 0 (36m 7s): Right? So it's kind of like this whole rebirth of like who am I as a man and what does that mean to me? 2 (36m 13s): And then how does that work when there is no more work? So let's say they're entering a Retirement era. So how do you, how do you derive goals that aren't work based? 0 (36m 24s): Yeah, so it's, it's about exploring, you know, who am I in this era? What, what does my label mean to me now? Because a lot of men are, are associating what they do as who they are. So when they stop working and go into Retirement, it's like, oh my god, I, I've lost who I am. But when even when you retire you can't stop doing things right? So we just need to find passion projects for you to do things for you to explore new parts of you to explore it. It's, it's, it's about discovery. 2 (36m 53s): And then do you have favorite places that, or activities that you send men to to be able to kind of gain that male tribe or sense of community? Because obviously I think everything right now is so digital that it's a lot harder to find these more like in life places that you can kind of like build relationships with other people because I think it's important to ha as like a woman to have like a wom, a women's only space and like a man, a man to have a men's only space and it's like where do you find that today? 0 (37m 26s): Yeah, so like you said, a lot of it is digital and online is kind of like the only place that we can look in order to find local communities. So there are local community things cropping up, you know, from the book No more Mr. Nice guy. There's, there's nice guy groups that crop up. There's retreats that kind of crop up. They're not as common like we said as it is for women. But that's kind of how I encourage my clients to do. And I also just encourage them to open up to their current male circle. Like a lot of them will say, oh well my friends aren't like that, they don't really talk about deep stuff. And I go, well have you ever tried? Because if every man is saying that to me, there's gotta be, you know, everybody's just kind of faking it a little bit in the circle. So I always encourage them, why don't you just deepen the relationships that you have? 0 (38m 9s): Just test it out. Just see if one guy from the group who you trust the most is willing to have a deeper conversation and you may find that you become the leader of your own circle of men who are conscious and and wanna grow together. So 2 (38m 22s): What do you think the unique perspective or advantages is of you being a woman in this space? Because anytime that I try to talk about men's to topics, there's always a crowd that'll kind of like rush in and like, well you're not a man so you don't know. It's obviously I don't have the lived experience but I think that we can all offer a unique perspective. Like there's something an advantage from being a woman and I'm sure that there's disadvantages as well and then there's advantages from being a man, A man and advantages as well. 0 (38m 48s): Yeah. So when I, when I first started doing this work, it wasn't about, I'm a woman coaching men, the only reason I started to coach men was because I was trying to help people heal their pain. And I said, well I don't know how to coach men but I know how to help people heal pain so let's give it a try. And then over the years I learned the specific struggles that men go through it. I learned how they learn and because I'm a woman I can give them the perspective that perhaps their spouse has that perhaps the women in their life have and coaching men, I started off as a masculine energy, that's how they connect with me. But I'm able to show them the soft side, like this is what it means to feel safe in a female presence. 0 (39m 34s): So it's kind of like two worlds in one where I can teach you the logic but let me show you the feminine. 2 (39m 40s): And then do you think that a lot of the reason that there is that a lot of your content I was going through it would talk about like men problem solving and to me that made a lot of sense. It was like the woman might have an emotional need or she might be without words asking for connection or saying I need connection. But then they're like, okay, there's this problem I've gotta solve and then they'll like, they'll go do that and then she's left hanging like that's not what I need. I don't need you to solve my problem, I just need like a hug right now or I need to be validated and that's all. And I guess like where, cuz it's a lot of that is EQ, right? And it's just like the, the differences in how our brains kind of work. But I do think a lot of it could also be if we didn't grow up with a soft mom or a mom that was in her feminine. 2 (40m 21s): Like we can't even recognize that side of ourself. Like even if you're a man, like you can't recognize that feminine within yourself that like needs to connect. So I guess like how do you start to develop that EQ if it's working from like a maybe a deficit? 0 (40m 37s): Yeah. Well and it's also just a lot of societal shame for men feeling any emotion at all besides like aggression, horniness or happiness. So they sometimes will try to solve the problem because they wanna bypass feeling altogether their partner being uncomfortable or sad makes them deeply uncomfortable because they don't know how to handle it. So the first step to providing a safe space for someone else is acknowledging within yourself it's okay to go on this journey with someone. And that's ultimately what your partner wants is they don't need you to solve their problem because chances are they've lived many years before you came into their life and they figured it out and they know how to solve their own problems and they're just expressing these emotions to you because part of healing our pain is having a witness. 0 (41m 25s): And so she's inviting you to go on this journey with her of what she's feeling and you have to be willing to open up your heart enough to be vulnerable to go on that journey with her and not try to just shut it down by solving the problem. By just saying, okay, I'm gonna listen to you, I'm gonna validate you and I validate you by emphasizing what you're saying. I validate you by asking questions and being curious about this journey that you're on. And when you do that you allow the journey to be a journey instead of a question that's, or a story that's repeated again and again and again and you're like, I already told you the solution. Why does she keep asking me the same thing over and over again because she wasn't looking for the solution. 0 (42m 6s): She's looking for you to validate like she's looking for you to take the ticket and get on the ride with her when you get on the ride, the ride's done. 2 (42m 14s): No, I think that's great because a lot of like what you see right now, the really popular influencers are still kind of having that very old school Mentality of what a man is or what masculinity is and then it can't be showing vulnerability or emotions or connection and it's like that's the easiest way to have the most shallow relationship ever. And then what do you have at the end of the day like just a cohort of women? I don't, I don't know. It's like what do you really want? That doesn't seem that interesting to me, 0 (42m 39s): Right? I've seen so many posts where it's like just don't fall in love with a woman. She's your, I've seen Toxic posts like she's your maid, all their good is for pumping and dumping and oh god, that's like the dark side of the internet that I hate going on. Cause it really makes you feel like, is this really where your heart is in this, this very, very dark place that you really see all women like that? It's really sad. 2 (43m 1s): Well it's a really good way to protect yourself from not getting hurt, right? So it's like if you see women as just this commodity then they're not in a space where you can, they can ever hurt your heart. It's like no, yeah, that's just a thing. And it's fear, it's just like fear of being hurt. But once you realize like eventually someone is going to love you the way you need to be loved, like that's a beautiful thing and having your heart broken is actually like, it's kind of a beautiful thing cuz I feel like it just opens it up a little bit more hopefully. And then you for the next person that's like your right person. 0 (43m 32s): Yeah, absolutely. And I've also seen women do it to men too where they're like, just use him for his money. Get on a free date. Which also like when you're going, I literally have thought about this, when you're thinking about cost benefit, a analysis, like your roi, you're really gonna spend like a few hours of your time to get like a $30 dinner. Like you're not making any money on this. I'm like, who? Who thinks of this? It's such a waste of time. Like I, I don't know anybody who masks this out but they're broke. Like you just, there's no re rhyme or reason for that. Like 2 (44m 5s): Do you have any, do you have any clients that have like those more Transactional Relationships consciously, like they have, I don't wanna say like a sugar baby, but like basically like a sugar baby where it's like I'll take her to dinner or I'll buy her a purse and that's all that she really wants, but I'm getting like what I need outta that relationship. So it's a fair transaction. 0 (44m 27s): No, the most that I have is men who do have quite a bit of money and they like to spoil the person that they're dating but not in a way that's like Transactional. The people actually really quite like them but they don't wanna, they don't actually want to like, yeah they don't wanna be in a relationship. But it's not because it's a Transactional thing, it's just because they have the money to spend essentially. 2 (44m 50s): Yeah, I was because right before you were on because 0 (44m 52s): Men, sorry, like men who are wealthy generally like to please the people around them. They like to give back, they like to be generous. That is like a thing with wealthy men. It's, yeah. So sorry, go ahead. 2 (45m 6s): Oh no I was gonna say right before you were on, I was posting on TikTok so like while it was uploading there was stuff being fed to me and the one was like, he calls himself The, Whore Whisperer. And I know when he calls himself and he's like telling these young women who are sugar babies, how to get these men to spend money on them to where they can make the most like cash. So they're like, well don't get product cause that's a depreciative asset. Make sure he's buying you these two bags or make sure if he's buying you gifts it's from these two stores cuz it's like cash return. I was like whoa, that doesn't seem great advice for anybody because it just seems like when you're gonna wake up one day and a either B broke, you spent all your money on these women that didn't give a shit about you or B, you just wasted your youth on a guy who just bought you a bunch of bags. 2 (45m 59s): And I'm like, this is what's out there right now and this has like millions of views and I'm just like hitting myself in the head. Like I hope, I hope that it's just people watching it like me that are just in shock and not actually like consuming like this is a good idea, I'm gonna go do that. I'm gonna exchange. 0 (46m 13s): Of course there are, of course there are a deal's a deal man. A win's a win. If you don't have any talent or skills that becomes your talented skill. I mean you can't hate, you can't hate the player, you gotta hate the game, you know? Totally. 2 (46m 26s): Yeah. 0 (46m 27s): People are out here hustling. Okay, they're hustling and then I'm on the other side of that coaching the men. So it's just job insurance for me. But you know what, on the lower spectrum of that, maybe they're spending too much money on the bag. they can't afford my coaching and that's the sad. But yeah, if you feel like you have to have your relationship as a transaction and all relationships are Transactional because it's an emotional give and take, it's a physical give and take. But if it's materialistically Transactional, you're probably not in good keeping 2 (46m 58s): No on either end. Yeah. Demand better on both ends. 0 (47m 2s): It's a little soulless too, I feel like Trade yourself or a Birkin. But I mean, I mean if it's a Birkin shirt, if it's a little Prada bag, that's a different story. Someone buying like a thousand dollars bag versus a $43,000 bag. It's a little different. Well yeah, marry that man. 2 (47m 20s): Right? Don't let that one go. 0 (47m 23s): So's gonna see. This would be like EliseHow. Dare you. I'm just joking guys, I'm just having fun. 2 (47m 30s): No, you're allowed to be playful. So I saw, it's so funny cause I feel like my, I, I know my phone is listening to me. Everyone your phone is listening to you, but I was digesting all of your content to like prepare and get these questions. So I was just getting fed a lot of like relationship feed posts and like men's posts. So it actually worked out. This one that came up a lot that came up is this shame against men's sexual gratification. So it's almost, I don't know if you've heard of like semen retention that's, that's super popular right now. A title of a really popular podcast right now was masturbating is Hurting You. 2 (48m 13s): And it's kind of like this puritanical culture is resurging but with a new, so weird with new branding. And it's crazy to me cuz we don't do this to women, we actually do quite the opposite. We're like, yes, you go girl, you be a sugar baby, you get an OnlyFans like you, you do you sister or queen. But when it comes to a men it's like how dare you? You cannot ejaculate because then you are like, you're, what do you call it, degradating women or it's shameful or you're wasting your life force. It's like all of this weird, 0 (48m 46s): It's so weird. 2 (48m 47s): Yeah. Do you have a lot of men that are struggling with you see your 0 (48m 50s): Life force? 2 (48m 50s): It's crazy struggling with like sexuality or their expression because we can see like we cope with stress in healthy and unhealthy ways and I don't think that like having a release is necessarily bad, right? Like there's a good way and a bad way, a healthy way and an unhealthy way to do it. So even as a woman, if you're stressed and you masturbate like that can't, like you get those endorphins, that's a good thing. If you're doing it every single time, maybe you might wanna like add some more tools to your toolkit, but I don't necessarily think that that's like a shameful act. We, like from a young age we are shaming men for what I think is like a healthy coping mechanism. 0 (49m 30s): I wouldn't say that it's a healthy coping mechanism necessarily, but I think it's a healthy practice for self-pleasure and there's nothing like it. I actually had a shaman talk to me when I was in Mexico. He was my shamonic teacher and he told me that the whole semen retention thing was so dangerous and people can get cancer and it's just crazy. Like you people are telling people to like never masturbate. To never ejaculate. Like men need to do this. Right? And so it's, yeah, like you said, it's kind of this puritanical weird, we're going back into a religious state of like sex is bad and you know, masturbating is bad and touching yourself is bad. Like pleasure is bad and that's not bad. 0 (50m 11s): Anytime something goes into an addiction, it's not good for your health. Anytime you're using something as an avoidance, it, it's not good. Right? If you're masturbating for self-pleasure, for your own personal enjoyment, that's different than saying, oh my God, I don't don't wanna do my work so I'm gonna masturbate. Right? Yeah. Eight times a day. Right? Yeah. So I totally agree with that. I think it, I think that movement is, is so crazy. 2 (50m 36s): Yeah. When I say coping, I don't necessarily mean as a form of escape because I do agree with you like escaping an issue is not healthy at all. You need to face those things head on. But to me I don't see a difference, especially from like a neurological standpoint of like, I'm gonna go masturbate because I'm stressed out versus like I'm gonna go take a lavender bath. You know what I mean? Like both are like you're using like a natural physical modality to relax. I do think it's a problem if you're using it as like a way to kind of avoid or escape responsibility or to procrastinate, right? Like all of those things, like that's not healthy. But if you're like, okay, like I know this is, that's much better than like going and drinking a bottle of scotch for example. 2 (51m 20s): But we'll be like, no, you're masturbating and that's wrong. And it's weird cuz it is in like the spiritual realm and a lot of those channels that are saying like the semen retention is going to make you more spiritual 0 (51m 30s): Of you last longer. And what? 2 (51m 32s): Yeah. Like absolutely not. And the whole ed thing we know is based off of shame and self-worth and the way that you kind of perceive yourself. It has nothing to do with like, okay, like let's practice this weird hand semen retention. I don't know. 0 (51m 47s): Yeah. Yeah. I think the intentions are good. Like people want you to get more in touch with your body and not just focus on Ejaculation as like the whole goal, which is really good. But when you're telling people that they're bad, if they ejaculate, excuse me or they've failed, then you're gonna associate coming with being wrong and then you won't even be able to get hard. Yeah. Because the whole process like holy shit, if I come I'm gonna be a fuck up or a loser or you know, I'm gonna lose my life force. Which is totally insane because when you have a bond with someone, you should be obtaining a higher feeling of life force when you guys are together, right? Right. Sex is supposed to be something so sacred. 0 (52m 28s): And so the fact that we're making all these rules and constructs around it, instead of just diving deeper into how do we make this healthy? How do we integrate this? And we talk about coping mechanisms. This is something I tell my clients a lot. Like I'm not trying to give you a toolbox of endless coping mechanisms to deal with anxiety and depression and sadness and stress. I'm trying to help cure you of your anxiety, depression, and stress. And so I tend to stray away from, hey, let's just give you another coping mechanism too. Let's address what the fuck is making you stressed out and not be stressed anymore. So like what can we do to just not be stressed or prevent the stress as opposed to just, okay, I'm gonna be unstressed for five minutes while I feel this and then I'm still gonna have the problem here. 2 (53m 15s): One of the main questions that came up when it, when it comes to men and mental health was What, Does, Depression, Look, Like in Men. 0 (53m 22s): I mean depression looks like in men like it does in everybody else, but nobody pays attention to it because we've adopted the fact that this is what's normal for men. Mm. So I would say majority of men are actually very depressed and they don't even know it. And A, lot of it is high functioning depression where they're going to work, they're doing really well in their job, but they have to take a drink every night when they come home because they can't sleep, they can't shut down. their brain is constantly going, they have stomach issues, they're full of anxiety, they can't connect with people, they have no enjoyment, right? Like all of this is happening, but we just see it as oh that's every man. Yeah, that's the problem. That's the, that's the exact problem. 0 (54m 3s): And men don't realize that they can live a life that is free of anxiety and they don t have to take a shot before they go to bed. they can actually sleep peacefully, they can actually enjoy their lives. They, they don't even recognize that this is a possibility for them. 2 (54m 18s): Do you have, I know you said that you don't like doing tools or necessarily coping mechanisms, but when it comes to Alleviating, Anxiety, are there like best practices that you can kind of, obviously you wanna have things integrated and nothing is a silver bullet but like best practices or whether it's like a breathing exercise, some kind of meditations like to deal with anxiety? 0 (54m 39s): Yeah, so the first thing I always teach my clients, anybody who comes on a first call with me is how to self-regulate, which is understanding how to interpret your body's signals and where it's at. Because the problem isn't mental stress, anxiety, whatever, it's physiological as well. And so what we try to do is we try to solve all these problems with logic and then we're still wondering why we're still struggling. So this is something that I actually dive in depth. I don't wanna like shameless plug but I have a masterclass on it where it teaches you actually how to interpret these body signals. But if you just look at self-regulation, which is what meditation does, it's what yoga does. But if you don't actually know what the purpose of those practices is, it can be really hard to tap into that every time. 0 (55m 22s): But essentially what you're doing is reaping the body to recognize what safety is. Most of us don't feel safe or our bodies don't feel safe. And so we're constantly pumping out adrenaline and cortisol, adrenaline and cortisol which doesn't allow us to relax. And so that's why a lot of these things like journaling and meditation or whatever are temporary cause we're not tapping into the safety mechanism of it. So once you tap into the safety mechanism of it, you don't even necessarily need those things as much anymore because you know how to interpret your own body signals and regulate it. 2 (55m 51s): Are you a fan of like incorporating like diet changes or what even like digital fasting, anything like that When it comes to anxiety or stress, 0 (56m 0s): I don't work with diet or anything like that simply because I have my own niche, 2 (56m 4s): Right? Yeah. 0 (56m 6s): But in the morning I tell them to dedicate at least the first 10 to 15 minutes just for them and not before they read the news, before they answer work messages or text messages because that separation is so necessary for just getting in tune with yourself. And at times I have told my clients who are like heavy, heavy into news watching cuz they're accountants or whatever stop, like limit it as much as possible because they're the ones who are the most anxious about the world descending, bad things are happening. Like all this negative information is constantly being imbued in them and you ha you have to like really change what's surrounding you. 2 (56m 40s): Yeah. And it's also I guess if people have the means to find, so a way to delegate that, right? Like maybe have someone else bring you a summary of like just the important things that you need for work so that you don't get caught up in the stream of negative, negative information that you don't necessarily need. It's not applicable to your job but it's very hard even just like the way that we're wired to not see and dive into that which they know. So just like being able to mitigate the stressors and like the unnecessary stressors that you're putting onto yourself. 0 (57m 10s): Right. Yeah. 2 (57m 12s): Well this has been really incredible. I hope that a lot of listeners got a lot of like utility out of it. Can you tell the listeners where they can follow you, how they can support you shamelessly, plug away anything that you're working on? 0 (57m 26s): Anyone could find me on any social media at Elise Michaels E L I S E M I C H E A L S. And I promise I do not do tarot reading. So if you ever get messages for that or I followed you back and say hello star shine or whatever they message, that's not me. Just just have to put that out there. Cuz people, me, there's so many fake accounts of me, I'm sorry, but it's not me. I promise you can only purchase things from me, from my website. And like I said, one of them is a masterclass on how to interpret the body signals and it's so necessary. It helps people with PTs d, anxiety. It's what I learned in trauma therapy. It's the basic for trauma healing. So very important for everybody and yeah. 2 (58m 7s): Awesome. Thank you so much. I'll make sure I link all of that below. Everyone give her a like a follow and check out that website and we'll see you next week. 0 (58m 15s): Thank you so much for having me.