The Harmful Myth of Men ‘Hardening Up’: Emotional Suppression and Its Fatal Impact on Life

0 (0s): From a young age, we get told to harden up. It's okay, don't cry. 1 (6s): One of my friends was driving and she's like, well, what if I just drove off the bridge and it's like this really weird detachment 0 (14s): After an alcohol fueled night, having an argument sitting in the bottom of the shower one morning, going through my head of reasons why not to do it. And she came in and I just had no other option. 1 (29s): These women in the woods that were screaming and like hitting trees with branches and stuff and people were, can you imagine spending money to go do this? You're actually 0 (38s): Slowly killing yourself emotionally. 1 (41s): Fathers that are now realizing that there is so much more participation that's required. 0 (46s): We have nine SA day in Australia. Seven of those are men, and of that seven, five of them are fathers. 1 (1m 1s): Hello everyone. You are watching or listening, chatting with Candace. I'm your host, Candice Horbacz. Before we get into the episode, we're gonna do our shout outs. As always, I wanna say a big thank you to everyone who has bought cups of coffee. All of that goes right back into the podcast and we are doing so much more traveling and in-person episodes and editing ain't cheap. So I sincerely appreciate all of the contribution. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We are gonna do a shout out to X dawn seven, Wanda D, best the rest Cat, Wanda again, Richard D and Wanda again, lots of coffee from Wanda. Thank you very, very much for all of those donations. 1 (1m 42s): And then for our Patreon members, I wanna say thank you to xx Brian Duff, Richard D. Rich, mark K and Rufuss Smith. Thank you so much for being paid Patreons. I sincerely appreciate all that support. If you wanna support the podcast, you can go to chatting with candace.com. Click that little link that says Buy me a coffee, or join our Patreon community where you get early access to episodes. You get to get a little sneak peeks on who's gonna come and get to ask your own questions and get shout outs. So what's better than that? This week we have Dane Mueller joining the podcast. He is the founder and one of the fac facilitators of Heartland Warrior. 1 (2m 23s): It is a personal development group based in Australia. His profile, his work is really amazing. I highly recommend you check them out. We will link all of that below. This week's episode is a little bit of a heavy one, but an important one. September is super awareness Month around the world, I believe. I know it's here and in Australia. Just a reminder to check in on those around you. Ask how everyone is doing and if you or anyone you know need support, we will link some resources below. With that being said, please help me welcome the amazing Dane Moeller. Dane, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. 1 (3m 4s): You're welcome. I, the timing for me is actually really perfect. I had no idea in the States that September was awareness month for men specifically. I don't know if it's the same in your part of the world, so I'm gonna definitely try to get this out and push it as a form of contribution. So yeah, the timing was perfect and thank you very much. 0 (3m 23s): You're welcome. It is September, here is men's mental health awareness and today specifically is a special day here called Are You Okay Day. It's a really big reminder to check in on on your mates, checking on your friends, checking on your family. So big day here for us, yeah, 1 (3m 41s): I don't know if you've seen this, it's like a PSA ad and it's two men going to, I'll say football, a football game or soccer game. And you have one guy that's showing up and he's really grumpy and quiet and the other one is trying to like talk to him. And he is like, Hey, how are you? Are you okay? And he's like very peppy and full of energy and it's just, just game after game after game. And this one guy gets grumpy, grumpier and grumpier and quieter and quieter and at the end of it, it's the grumpy guy that shows up and puts the sweatshirt over the chair. And it was the other one that was like looking for connection and looking for help. 1 (4m 22s): And to me that was so powerful because you often think that it's the obvious person that's going through the struggle that they're just wearing their heart on their sleeve and they'll be okay. But sometimes it looks very different. Sometimes it looks like the person that has everything or that you, they're very happy, they're very outgoing, they're the life of the party. And it's to try to recognize those moments of connection and instead of just like swatting it away to actually have that impact. And I feel like I am obviously not a man, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it, it seems like it's a lot harder for men to have that connection with each other versus women because the, our dynamics like it's harder to be vulnerable and and share the struggles that are going on in your life. 0 (5m 5s): Yeah, I, yeah, I definitely agree. And I have seen that that clip, that PSA clip and it's, it's, it's really cool. It's a really great eye opener for everyone to just to see how things can turn out. Men form relationships with other men really easily, but for a lot of the time they're only surface level. And, and it, it was much for me along most of my life. I had those relationships with friends of 20, 25 years. And yes, there was depth to it, but not the depth of of are you okay? 0 (5m 45s): And there wasn't a, I mean it's very similar probably for the men, men all around the world where from a young age, we get told to harden up, it's okay, don't cry. And we've sort of been modeled that behavior and it's been programmed into us to not share. And yeah, it's, it's definitely harder for men to be vulnerable because it hasn't been shown to us either as well. So yeah. 1 (6m 18s): So what would, what do you say to people that say men don't, shouldn't cry and especially don't cry in front of your woman? 0 (6m 27s): I say, come and speak to my wife and she'll tell you very differently, no, look, for me, this is a huge, huge piece because I, I was that, I was that man for, for a lot of my life. I'd shed a tear if there was something huge happening, a death or something major in my life when now it's something that like the I, there's moments I get full of gratitude and I have tears come through. It's just, it's a beautiful feeling. There's two things that happen when we're born. It's that, that is, we take our first breath and we cry. Every single person breathes, then cries when they're, when they first come into this world. 0 (7m 7s): And that is a sign of life. So for me, crying, letting that emotion through is a sign of life. So while I'm not saying men need to sit here and cry every single minute, but when there's something there and there's an emotion to come through, let it come through because you're actually slowly killing yourself emotionally by not letting yourself do that. 1 (7m 29s): Yeah. Your videos, I'm, I don't know how, I think it just stumbled on my for you page. So I started following you immediately because they are like gut wrenching, but in like a beautiful way. 'cause it's so rare to see men express like such vulnerability and such freedom. Have you been getting a lot of positive feedback or mixed feedback or negative feedback because it's really intense. So you got these big burly men and they're just, they're letting it out. 0 (7m 58s): We do, we do. We've got, even in the team, the hotbed team, my right hand man Ray, he's a six foot, 410 kilo Maori who shares his heart and his motions on his sleeve. So I really, it's funny when people say men don't do that. I'm like, I've got the man list of men in my team. So it, there's a lot of mixed comments and views on what we do and that's okay. I'll get, I, I make sense of all of them because it is, it is fairly new and not seen as much though it is becoming more common. It depends on the platform as well. 0 (8m 38s): tiktoks crazy with the comments and things like that. We've got a, we've got a really great audience over there though. There's a lot of, a lot of negative stuff there though. Facebook, Instagram, we do, we do get some fantastic support, fantastic support there. 1 (8m 56s): So yeah, it's, it's interesting 'cause you see a lot of these retreats popping up all over, like men's retreats, women's retreats, and then mixed retreats as well. The one thing that I see universally is this kind of cathartic release, whether it's through breath work or whether sometimes it's screaming. There was this one viral video that it's these women in the woods that were screaming and like hitting trees with branches and stuff. And people are like, can you imagine spending money to go do this? And I get what it looks like and especially for someone who hasn't done anything like that. But for so many people you've never had the permission to have feelings or big feelings, especially as a little kid. 1 (9m 38s): And then as you say, like it, it gets conditioned. So in a weird way, by paying that fee and showing up to a space where this is part of the whole container, like this is allowed, this is even expected. It's the first time that these people have had permission to feel their feelings. So it might look a little bit crazy, but in a weird way, modernity has kind of forced that to be the option because where else are you gonna do something like that? 0 (10m 5s): Yeah, it's the permission piece. And for a lot of the men and women and couples, 'cause we do men's, women's and couples retreats, it's, they haven't been shown how to show their emotions properly either from a young age, men, men especially I will say with the anger and the sadness though, we we're finding more and more women have haven't actually, they don't have a reference point to be angry. Which is, which is, which is crazy to think because, and it's no one's fault because it's only what our parents and their parents have showed them and so on and so on. So it's just modeled behavior through generations, though it can look crazy and it does look crazy. And I make complete sense of that though. 0 (10m 49s): It is them letting themselves, giving themselves permission to do it. It's not a permission piece from anyone else. And the biggest piece for, for us and them letting to do that is the safety within what we do when they come into our, our space. So the big, the big thing for us is yes, they allow themselves to do it, that permission piece and they feel safe enough to do it with us as well. 1 (11m 11s): Yeah, the safety element is huge with the couples dynamic. Would you see a common obstacle between couples nowadays? Because maybe part of it is just we're so comfortable that we maybe have the a availability now to pick apart the other person. Whereas if you're running from a saber tooth tiger, like you can't really complain that he's not romancing you enough or that she's not acknowledging and respecting enough. Like almost that safety element and modernity has made us maybe more adversaries than we have been in the past. But is there a common obstacle that you've seen between couples 0 (11m 49s): Communication number one? Mm, it's the number one. And we're not, not through, we're not taught properly during school how to communicate properly. 'cause communicate, communicating goes so much deeper than what you're saying. It's how you're saying it, how they're receiving it, lots of things like that. For a lot of the couples that come into our couples retreat, it's really different to the men's and women's. It's, we really focused on returning, returning love because that's why most people are together in the first place is 'cause they fall in love with each other and that they forget that. So it's that remembering of love. And they'll come to our couples retreat because they think they actually have these challenges and problems together. 0 (12m 30s): But they soon find out through some of the processes that we do at our couples retreat that, oh, it's actually stuff that I have to deal with myself. And that we're actually pretty good though as soon as we sort ourself our, our own issues out our own inner child problems, out our own traumas and triggers and all of those things, we're actually in a really good space. And now we've got the tools and resources from this retreat. Let's go do some other stuff on our own though being together to, to work through that so we can have that, that relationship that we deserve and desire. 1 (13m 3s): So it's kind of like an interdependent relationship dynamic at the retreats. Yeah, 0 (13m 8s): Well it was very much for how my wife and I, I figured out our challenges. 'cause the work that we do and provide is work that we had to do ourselves because we were, we were in years ago now in a really bad way. We, I was close to leaving her. We had, I was, I had all the labels given to me from the medical professionals of depression and anxiety and post-traumatic stress. And I had massive challenges with ideation most of my life. My wife's dad was dying, my dad was dying. There was so many things and people on from the outside going, oh, this is really tough. 0 (13m 53s): You, you guys should just split and go your separate ways. Which is a really easy thing for everyone to do these days. It's, it's easier to split than it is to stay together. And we found out by doing the work together, first we went and saw the marriage counselors, the psychs and all of those things that we figured out our problems to that were, we thought were each other together. We're actually problems separate. So we have ended up doing the work together, but separately. And that's what we figured out and that's why we've created what we've created. 1 (14m 27s): Yeah, I've found just through my own anecdotal experience that the only thing you can do is work on yourself. And when you keep trying to fix the other person, it just creates more animosity between the two of you because to some extent you are who you are and they who are who they are. And there is, in my opinion, a certain immovable portion of you that will always kind of be that personality. And it's just like, how do you make the best version of that? There's a really good Gabor mate quote where he says, there's basically three options in a relationship and one is to say, I love you. I'm not gonna try to change you or fix you. I'm only gonna work on myself and whenever you come around I'll be here. 1 (15m 11s): The other one is, this is not working for me and I'm going to leave. And then I think the third one, I forget the third option, the third one. But basically those were the two healthy options like the third one, which is I guess the fixing mentality is just, you need to scrap that and take it off the table because it's not gonna fix anything in the long run with your history of ideation. How early did that start? 0 (15m 36s): I was around eight years old. 1 (15m 38s): Eight 0 (15m 39s): When I can first remember. Yeah. 1 (15m 41s): Oh my gosh. Do you know why that, what triggered that onset? 0 (15m 49s): When I was like, I grew up loving family, two sisters very lived in the country in Australia, like very outback where, where I was from though I was a, I was a really, really great young sports, sports person. Anything that I would put my mind to on the sporting field, no matter what sport it was, I would, I'd be really good at. So there was a lot of things around that. And when I'd succeed on the sporting field, I'd get attention. I received love and that's how I thought I had to receive love. So anytime that I wouldn't succeed, I wouldn't win the game or I wouldn't score the goals, I'd beat myself up because I didn't, didn't impress or didn't deserve the love from my dad or my mom or the people around me, which was complete nonsense because they did love me. 0 (16m 40s): But it was just my own thoughts, my own self-doubt, self-worth all those pieces. And it just grew and grew and grew over the years. So that's, yeah. And it wasn't so much that I wanted to, because ideation could be so many different things. It was not that I ever wanted to leave this earth, I just thought the world would be a better place without me. 'cause I kept on failing. 1 (17m 5s): Mm. Yeah. That's just so young to me. That's shocking to think. 'cause I have two boys, they're two and four. Yeah. And I don't, it like makes more sense when you have someone who's grown and has had the hardships of life come at them for 20, 30, 40, whatever years. But when they're so little, it's like, man, it's, it's more vulnerable than you realize. And I think especially with boys now, I think that there's a lots, many 0 (17m 36s): People think too. 1 (17m 37s): Yeah, I think so because it's, there's probably a shame element linked to it. So being able to admit that to anyone or maybe, I don't know, maybe you can talk to what that feels like to not, I don't know because I, I haven't been there. I think postpartum, there was definitely some times where I had thoughts of like, they'd be better without me kind of a thing. Yeah. And then having to snap out of that. And I know a lot of women that I've spoken to have had similar ones. Like one of my friends was driving and she's like, well, what if I just drove off the bridge? And it's like this really weird detachment that you have. It's not like, it's not violent per se, but it's just, you're playing out a possibility. 1 (18m 20s): But it took a long time for me to even say that to anyone that I knew because it's like, that makes me a terrible person for having that thought. 0 (18m 27s): Yeah. I hid it for most of my life. I hid it, hid it from my wife, the person that knew absolutely everything about me. I hid it from her for the first eight years of our, our time together until it came, it came to a point of basically me after an alcohol fueled night, having an argument sitting in the bottom of the shower one morning going through the reasons. And I've got two beautiful young boys myself going through my head of reasons why not to do it. And she came in and I just had no other option. That was my only way out. I didn't know that I, I wasn't aware of what would come of it, how she'd look at me, how she'd feel about me though it's, it was tearing me apart inside. 0 (19m 16s): So I, I finally said it and as soon as I said it, there was a relief within me. And yeah, the, and there's so much shame around it because it's, my older view of it was that it was weak. It was weak to have those thoughts because I didn't, like, I didn't see my life as, there was nothing wrong or nothing bad with how I grew up, but for a lot of people that do go through this, and I think in the states, the statistics are something around 92% of adults have had suicidal thoughts. So it's, it's a really common thing and it's just the severity of it. That changes though, that, that bottom of the shower moment that I had was now one of my proudest moments because it's like those darkest moments are where the diamonds are for us. 0 (20m 1s): Right. And it's a moment that my wife, I'll forever be grateful for because with, without knowing, she knew, there was an unconscious thought, I guess from her that yeah, there's something not right here. I had been labeled with depression and, and a few other bits and pieces I had, I was on some medication and she'd been doing a lot of personal development at the time and, and on her journey and, and leading and being the lighthouse that she, that she is and doing her best to, or she was pulling me along for a while, but she had to, she had, there was a point where she had to stop and just be the lighthouse herself and shine bright, which she does so well. 0 (20m 44s): And there was a lot of different things that we'd tried. I was doing the counseling for her, I was doing the s psychs for her. And then she come in and I told her, and she just said to me, she, she was like, no one's coming. And she said that no one, I I can't ride this for you, but I can write it with you. And at the time wasn't what I really wanted to hear because I was like, I just wanted to be felt loved. But now looking back on it, it was the deepest form of love anyone has ever given to me. And it was a couple of days later I was getting some breakfast for my kids and it just landed. Just something happened and I'm just like, it was just like a, a moment of of time. 0 (21m 27s): I'm like, fuck, no one is coming. I've, I've actually got to sort this shit out myself. I can't rely on others to do it because people have been trying to help me and pull me with them and show me the way for a while now and nothing's worked for me. So it, it is time that I need to do that. So that was, it was one of the, one of the, the greatest moments that I've been able to, that I've been able to get myself through. And knowing my old view of it, my past version view of it, thinking that it's weak and now seeing so many people that have been in similar situations and, and possibly worse get themselves out. But I'm like, it actually takes a really strong individual to pull themselves from those depths to get to where they need to be. 0 (22m 12s): So yeah. 1 (22m 14s): So what are, what are some things that have helped? I don't know if it's entirely gone or if, because my audience knows I'm very weary of medication, like prescriptions. I don't think that that is a long-term solution. I don't really think it's a solution at all. And if you read the black box label people before you start coming at me, it literally says increases, potentially increases thoughts of suicide ideation and violent behavior. So someone who's already there, like that just is crazy to me. Yeah. But yeah. Like what tools or practices that, that you've found that have helped you? 0 (22m 53s): Yeah, I, I 100% agree with you. And I'm not telling everyone to go get off their medication. 'cause I think some of it is needed though for me. I didn't go, I didn't go seek doctor's advice. I'm just like, I've dealt with this most of my life and haven't done anything. I've been on medication now. And it actually made me, made it worse. 'cause it actually shut off all feeling to everything. And then it gave me an excuse and a further excuse because before that I didn't have an excuse. I just had to be the person that I had to be. Whereas now I had an excuse for my behaviors towards myself and, and others. And I didn't like that. So I'm like, I, I can do what I need to do without this and I'm not using this as, as my excuse anymore. 0 (23m 39s): So I took myself off. What did I do? We, I dove headfirst into anything and everything that I could, when it comes to self-development, I went into the, the shadow work or trauma work or whatever, whatever. There's so many different names for it, unconscious mind work, all of it. A huge, huge factor for me was breathwork. Breathworks an enormous part of my life. I facilitate it now, I I it, it's in every part of what we do as a, as a company and as facilitators. It's, it's a, it's a pivotal piece for us with connection to self as well. 0 (24m 18s): There's so many, so many, there's so many different modalities of breathwork. But the particular ones that we use, the holotropic breath work for trauma release was monumental for me in in having that release and breakthrough. Yeah. 1 (24m 31s): Yeah. One of the things I was thinking too is with that medication, doesn't it affect libido a lot from men specifically? I think both men and women. But doesn't it affect that? I 0 (24m 41s): Think, I think some can, yes. I'm just trying to remember. Look at the time I was so, we were so disconnected as a couple. There wasn't much happening 1 (24m 53s): In that there anyways in that way 0 (24m 55s): Anyway, so I would've known. Yeah. 1 (24m 57s): Yeah. I don't know. I, 'cause I think long term being on that medication long term, and for me that is such an important factor between a healthy relationship. And I don't know, it, it sounds weird, but even when things are rough, it's something that you should still try to prioritize because it's almost like that tether Yes. That reminds you that you're on the same team. Because I think when you don't have that romantic element or you're not connecting sexually, it's very easy to see the other person as your adversary. At least that's kind of been my dynamic and a lot of women that I've spoken to. So then you have someone that's already feeling disconnected, lost, depressed, maybe even suicidal, and you take away their real form of physical intimacy. 1 (25m 42s): It just seems like it would have a com compounding effect. 0 (25m 45s): Yeah, it does. It has a huge compounding effect. And because I guess when there's that disconnection between two people, it can feel like a chore as well. And we don't wanna do chores. No one really likes doing chores. So it's, it's almost forcing yourself to, to do that so you can have that connection. Because I mean, any, like, everyone enjoys it. I don't, I dunno, anyone that doesn't, and even if it may feel like that chore at the start, it's not gonna feel like a chore at the end. And, and you're gonna really go, oh, why don't we do this more often anyway? Because it actually, you feel better, the endorphins are released and you have that connection and you're full of love and full of joy with the other person. 0 (26m 29s): So yeah, it's a, it's a huge benefiting factor. And just touching on the, on the medication, again, the thing with the most of the antidepressants is they're not just shutting off the depressive thoughts. They're shutting off all feeling Mm. Where like all feeling it's energy and it's inness, where is that feeling and energy going to go? There's nowhere for it to release. So it's only gonna keep bottling up, bottling up, bottling up until there's an explosion. So, 1 (27m 0s): And then at your retreats, do you do any somatic work or nervous system work as well? 0 (27m 6s): Yeah, there's a lot of somatic release for us. Yeah. It's a, it is a huge part of what we do. Energetic, somatic release, shaman work. It's, it's all, it's all part of that three day experience. Yeah. 1 (27m 17s): Yeah. I think that's really, really important. I'm starting this class next week with this facilitator. Her name is Irene Lyon. If you don't know who she is, definitely check out her work. I will. She is a nervous system practitioner. And what I've found through just like my journey is that you can do a lot of these things, but if you don't, what she calls it capacity. So almost my understanding is like the threshold of what your nervous system is allowed to or able to handle before it. It'll go into fight, flight or freeze or shut down. Yeah. And you can do things like breath work or psychedelics or cold plunge, like all of these really great modalities. 1 (27m 57s): But if your foundation, if your nervous system isn't regulated, then it's gonna be a temporary fix. So, and that's great for some people. Like you absolutely need that while you work on the other thing because yeah, some of these things are very time sensitive. So like you need to be able to snap out of a dark place very quickly, very quickly. So I'm not saying that anything bad about these practices, but it's more about making sure that you know that unless like the foundation is where it's supposed to be, that it's not gonna actually bring you to healing. It's just a temporary stint, if you will. So I'm curious, with three days, you can do a lot in three days, especially if it's in the right container. 1 (28m 38s): What is the integration process afterwards? 0 (28m 41s): So for the people that come on ours, there's the post retreat support's almost more important than the retreat itself for us. So anyone that has been on our retreats, we always do a post retreat group call, two weeks post. Everyone's in a private messaging group with all the facilitators and everyone that is on those retreats. And that group is open forever. And then we have a, an online portal for all these people with all of our tools and resources, breathworks meditations, to keep on doing this work for themselves. So there's constant support, constant contact with them as well. The, there's, there's been so much time and effort, love and compassion going in into the retreats themselves that everything that we do has purpose down to the music we use, down to the words we say. 0 (29m 35s): And, and yet there's so much room for intuitive style mentoring through the, throughout the weekend as well. Because everyone has different experiences though. Yeah. The post retreat support for us is hugely important. And like I said, there's so many different elements. We bring all the elements into the breath work, the somatic release, the, the physical release as well. That's just as important for, for a lot of people as well. So, and we bring all of the elements into it. Oh, earth, wind, water, fire, that's, it's all, it's all a huge part of it. Mind, body, spirit, spirituality for us is a huge part of, of what we do, of, of, of my journey as well. So we bring it all. 1 (30m 15s): Do you think that that's a key component to this? I guess lack of direction that a lot of people feel, or a lack of purpose is how, I guess disconnected or almost Criticized you get if you do say that you believe in something bigger than yourself because that used to be the main model. All of us were religious at one point and then we became like very averse to it. And now I see a rebirth, which I think is really beautiful. But there still is a lot of critique if you're like, I believe in God, I believe in something bigger. I have a spiritual practice. And almost in a weird way, if you say spiritual and you're not, if you don't belong to one thing, then that also gets ridiculed. 1 (30m 58s): But do you find, I guess why do you think spirituality is such a key component for you? And then do you think that that aids the aimlessness or lack of purpose that a lot of people are experiencing? 0 (31m 10s): Yes. To that last question. Yeah. I do believe it is a huge part and why some people are, so, I'll say lost for lack of a better word, lost for themselves from themselves or not connected to themselves. For me, it was a huge part of my journey and my, like, my growth more than anything, being connected to myself physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And I mean, spirituality means so many different things to so many different people. And it's all right. So there's no dis for, for us there's no discrimination as to whether you, whether it's God, Allah, whatever source of dietary you believe in, that's fine. 0 (31m 54s): It's, it's there. For me, spirituality is self, it's all to do with me. I am connected to a source. I am my higher power. And I, yeah, there, there, I guess there, there definitely has been a stigma around spiritual people or the, the societal belief on what a spiritual person looks like. And I guess having the people we have, 'cause I mean the soci societal norm of what I, especially here in Australia, what a spiritual man looks like. I'm not that, I'm far from that. I'm an ex rugby league player that tattoo all over myself and just far from what society would say a spiritual person looks like, the people in our team are far from that. 0 (32m 44s): So we're definitely bringing a, I guess a different view on that through what we do as well. And it's allowing other men who have again, been programmed to think what a spiritual person looked like or even what spirituality is to go, oh, okay, it is, it is a normal thing. It is something that is worth looking after. If these guys are having these experiences through it, then maybe there's something there for me. So it's just, it was not, not caring about anyone's judgment of how they thought of us and what we spoke about because we know what it's done for us. 0 (33m 25s): So we, we just, we're just open with it and there's a, there's, I'm, there's a huge power in not giving a fuck. And we don't give a fuck what anyone thinks. And that is in their judgment of us. We value opinion, we don't give a fuck about anyone's judgment. If I did, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. So, 1 (33m 45s): No, that's such great advice. It's, it's this weird way that you can start living your life for someone else. And once you realize that in about 70 years from now, you know, I'm in my thirties, almost everybody I know that is my age or older is gonna be dead. Right? And then in a hundred years, everyone I know is probably gonna be dead. So it's like to put so much emphasis on someone's opinion or judge well, yeah, opinion or judgment and not to authentically live for yourself makes zero sense whatsoever. And I think when you have that, your 0 (34m 20s): Judgment is one of the biggest limiting beliefs that a lot of people have. And, and, and I get it, it's, it's there though. The power in not caring, not giving a fuck about other people's judgment is one of the biggest weights being lifted from your shoulders. So it, it's, it's one of my most favorite things. I I've just finished a group container with 12 men that actually were on the last men's retreat and I loved it. 'cause we, we share on the last call about what, what how you're feeling about yourself, how do you feel within your body? And a lot of 'em are just like, I'm just this week I've just, I just don't care. And I'm like, perfect. That's what I want. 0 (35m 0s): That's what everyone should get to feel. Everyone has, everyone has the ability to feel that. I just, I wish for everyone to feel that freedom of not caring about what other people think of them. 1 (35m 11s): Yeah. For me it's, it's something I've always thought of in practice or intellectualized, but I feel like this last year and especially the last couple months, I've really embodied it. I don't know what the shift was, but it's almost like I woke up and I, it was like a different version of myself where I would see the criticism or I would something that would normally give me anxiety. Like don't post that, don't say that. Whatever it is. Like no, this is just who I am. Take it or leave it. And this is a great filtration of who is my tribe, who's not my tribe and it has nothing to do with me. And if I'm doing this thing in order to gain acceptance, I'm abandoning myself. 1 (35m 54s): And then that's such a fragile dynamic because now I have to keep this facade up in order to keep that attachment. Yeah. So you're actually doing yourself such a disservice and making it something so much more stressful and vulnerable to collapse versus just being yourself raw, unfiltered, not perfect and showcasing that because anything that you attract to the other way, it's not gonna last. 0 (36m 21s): No, definitely not. You're not living in true alignment when you're not living true to yourself. If you're kid, like you said kid, having that facade on, I remember when, 'cause I was a builder for 15, 16, 17 years prior to this work, I had my own construction company, all the things. So doing what I do now is so very different. And I have had a group of mates, same mates for about 20 years. So when I made this switch and changed this the way I am, how I talk, how I act, how I do it, there was a lot of pullback from friends like, oh what are you changing? I'm like, I'm actually not changing. I'm actually just being myself for the first time. 0 (37m 3s): The person that you knew wasn't the person I I'm supposed to be. And that's why I've been so unhappy within myself because I'm not living congruent to my values now. It was a difficult thing and it was scary when I first started posting about these different things. 'cause before I had retreats I had to put myself out there and start talking about how I saw the world and what this work had done for me. And I was okay with sharing that. And yes, scary at first though the feedback I got was, was fantastic. So I just kept on going with it. And the biggest thing, and a lot of people, and I'm sure you've probably dealt with it yourself, is you have to be okay with people not being in your life anymore. 0 (37m 44s): Like changing tables maybe you don't know which table you need to be at at the time, so you go sit at a table by yourself though I knew that the table I was at with the people I was with wasn't going to get me where I wanted to be. So at first, yeah, it was really, really tough because they were friends from a long time. And I'm not saying I'm not there for those people now I am, but I just limit, I edit those relationships. They're not people that serve me and what I'm about at the moment. So there's just, there's an editorial relationship. 1 (38m 14s): Yeah, I agree. I think the way that I view it is that there's different layers of connection or proximity and it's not to completely get rid of certain people because they're not where you are or where your trajectory is. And some people have just like, they've started maybe closer and what I would say is inner tribe and throughout time and experience, it's just kind of moved them to more of the outer stratosphere. Hmm. And that's fine. Like there's no animosity. But I think it's really important to consciously curate who's in that very inner circles. Like if anything happens, if you need anything, if there's some kind of tragedy or like you need support like that who, especially when you have kids like who's around your kids, what energy are they bringing into the h the home, how are they influencing? 1 (38m 59s): Because when you bring someone into your h your home and they're a really good friend or family member, you're basically saying to your kid without saying to them like, this is okay, this person is okay, their way of living is okay. And I think that that's really important to, to filter. 0 (39m 16s): If you want someone to read energy, you just get children in the room. They feel, they may not make sense of it, but they feel energy better than anyone almost as well as animals. Like it's, yeah, we can learn, we learn so much from children. It's not the other way around. Like I truly believe one of the biggest lessons I learned was from my eldest son, he's nearly nine Madden is his name. And I was starting to see all the traits in him that I hated in myself. The self-doubt, the the, the just the lack of confidence, the, the silence. 0 (39m 56s): When something wasn't quite going his way, it just, I'm just like, oh, I, I don't want him to be like that. So I, I'd do my best to say, Hey, let's do this, let's do that though. It's all well and good for someone to say it though he wasn't seeing it. So I was just like, I have to work on myself because if I don't, I'm passing my traumas onto my son because, and there's science behind it now that generational trauma is real, it is passed and can be passed on through DNA energy. So there's, there's data with that now. And I knew that we knew that back then. It's just becoming more relevant now. 0 (40m 38s): But I was seeing these signs in my son and I was just like, I, I have to do something this because like how selfish of me would it have been to not work on myself, for me to begin with though, how selfish of me would it be to not work on me and pass these onto my son. Not only does he have to deal with his stuff growing up in his life 'cause life's challenging enough with your own things, let alone dealing with my stuff, my father's stuff, my grandfather's stuff. And then the, quite the possibility if I hadn't have done something to myself as in, in my life, knowing that it multiplies or intensifies when it's passed on, I probably would've been going to my son's funeral at 16 'cause he took his life 'cause I was too scared to do the work myself. 0 (41m 27s): And that that was the actual reality of it for me to light a fire under me to actually go, I, I have to do something now. 1 (41m 40s): Yeah. Whoa. That is, that's a very intense, I guess like thought, thought experiment. What I think is really beautiful is the way that I see men shifting what I guess traditional fatherhood was. And I say traditional very loosely 'cause I know it's like a tiny snapshot, but for, you know, millennials and Gen Z, gen X. But we had these dads that were very checked out and their only job was provider and provider meant money. Like not really providing emotional health or emotional safety or any of those things, right? 1 (42m 20s): It was just providing a paycheck, which, you know, that's fine, but I consider that to be the bare minimum. And then fathers that are now realizing that there is so much more participation that's required and then they're are also enjoying it. But I don't know the stat exactly, but it's something I wanna say they're spending 90% more time with their children than fathers did in the nineties, which is just mind boggling and how important that is. And I'm curious if you see, and and probably there's selection bias a little bit 'cause there's obviously a certain type of individual that is seeking out improvement and seeking out retreats. But if you see, I don't know, like a shift in fatherhood in the men that are coming into your groups. 0 (43m 3s): Definitely. And it's because people are just becoming more aware of, of what not being around for their children is doing to their children and doing to themselves too. So I think, and this is why social media is such a powerful tool when used with intent is people get to see these, these things and read about this and like, oh this is, this is me. And there's this again that old, that old glimpse of masculinity and it's, and it's again, it's no one's fault, it's just what this has been. They've been taught this is what men have to do. There wasn't really an another option back then when now there is more option and the cost of living's through the roof for everyone at the moment. 0 (43m 48s): So most, most families have to have their father and mom go to work. And a lot of the time the the mothers are the, the major breadwinners, which is fantastic. Which gives the men an opportunity to, to take on a bit more of that role as well. So there's so many, I mean there's polarity to polarity to everything, right? If some people might look at that as a bad thing though, it actually gives the moms and the dads the same amount of time to be with their, their children. And I, I personally think that's a fantastic thing because I've worked with so many men over the last few years that have so many wounds from not having fathers around. 0 (44m 33s): And it's 'cause they're always working, always, always providing in that sense where that old school view on masculinity is so very different and doesn't belong here. The world has evolved, we've evolved that view needs to evolve more. It's happening slowly. What does come is the the value of masculinity. So yes, the providing, the protecting, the safety, the love though it just gets to happen in, in so many different ways now. 1 (45m 0s): Yeah, I think it's really important to define things on your own terms and not just to take these labels that people are kind of slapping onto. And the thing that always gets me is when you have these very niche groups that have a toxic view of what it is to be a man, right? It's like it's this level of self-sacrifice and this level of providing income that you are losing everything else, right? Like you're almost looking at a man as a tool to be used and not, not a sovereign being that has feelings and needs, connection and love as well. And I do think men need to be able to provide something. I think that's a huge element of what gives a man purpose is contribution and being able to show up for his family. 1 (45m 43s): But that looks different for so many people. And there's this book called The Boy Crisis and the author talks about like some of the most famous wealthy men in the world leaving their job because they wanted to be a stay at home dad for the first few years because they either messed it up with their first kid or they didn't have it when they were a young boy. And they're like, no, this is the most important thing I'm gonna do as a man and everything else is is second and third order. So yeah, I think everyone needs to define things on their own term instead of just saying like, this is the exact archetype of a man and this is, and if you're anything less than you're a beta, it's like, what are you talking about? 1 (46m 23s): Yeah. What are you about 0 (46m 25s): Terms, well here's a little secret for everyone that's listening in. Men crave connection, men crave love as well, just as much as women do, which is who would've thought, right? So I think it's evident in, I don't know the exact statistics in the US but here we have nine a day in Australia, seven of those are men. And of that seven, five of them are fathers, which is, it's, this is why I'm in the work I do. And I, and there was a time that I was possibly gonna be one of those statistics and it, it's part of my purpose is to show men that it's okay to want to be a father and stay at home. 0 (47m 9s): But I think it, I sh it should be evident for everyone in those statistics that that view of men sacrificing themselves for their family isn't right. So I'm not saying there's no sacrifice. The sacrifice can come in things like, we don't need to eat out tonight. We don't need to do this, we don't need to do this. I don't need to sacrifice myself and slave away and be away from my family and, and not feel connected and not feel loved and they not feel loved from me. 'cause that's what actually is the, the, the, the huge piece in why so many men are taking their own lives. 1 (47m 47s): So it might be a silly question, but if you are someone and you don't have a tribe and you don't have a direction, you feel lost or you're spiraling, like what is the first step? How do you even begin to find, 'cause friends are hard enough to find, let alone a tribe member. Those are very different things. Yeah. So what is the first step? 0 (48m 11s): That is a really great question. 1 (48m 13s): Yeah. Or like a program or like a, obviously you have a great group, but yeah, 0 (48m 18s): There's so many organizations now for people to connect with. Again, so many cool things. So it's one of the, the great thing with social media too, there's, look, we've, we don't just have retreats. We've got free Facebook groups with men. We've of, there's so many things to so many things that we have within our company for people to come and connect with other people with though, if you're truly wanting and craving connection, like I guess ask yourself like be honest with yourself to begin with. Are you doing everything in your power to find that connection? 0 (48m 58s): Because a lot of people will sit at home, and this is the, the power of accountability too. 'cause a lot of people will sit at home saying they want connection, but they'll sit on their iPad or PlayStation for eight hours a day going, I wish I had someone to meet and not actually put in the effort to go do that. So like, be real with yourself first start, start asking yourself the questions. What am I doing to better myself? What am I doing to get this connection? Am I actually connected to myself? So honesty and accountability to begin with first up and then put in the effort. 0 (49m 39s): 'cause I would, I'm gonna say that probably 90% of people that aren't having connection with other people aren't actually putting in the effort to get that connection. 1 (49m 50s): Yeah. And I think just based off of your videos and there's something that's really sacred and important of being in a male only space as a man. And I, I know that that's true for me as a woman. It's because of that polarity. It's almost like you need that space that is just for you guys or just for us to be able to fully express or have someone be able to truly empathize with us. And I, again, my experience with a lot of men is they have a huge fear around being able to express themselves in front of a woman. Yeah. And maybe because they've been around, what I would just say is a girl, because I don't think a woman is gonna run the other way if you, if you show emotions like that's an immature female. 1 (50m 33s): But maybe they've had bad experiences in the past that have in a weird way created this unconscious bias for them. But I think it's really important for every man to have like a solid male group. And if you don't have one to start building that immediately. 0 (50m 48s): I, I agree wholeheartedly. And then letting yourself be seen and heard in front of those men too. Not have some depth of conversation. Be vulnerable because that's where the strength is through strength lies, that vulnerability. It's easy to push stuff down. That's the easy part. It's the, the tough part to begin with is letting it out. Sharing it though, once you do it becomes easier. And then one of the, i I guess a big point, a point of difference with how we run our retreats is we actually have women come on our retreat as facilitators. It's not the entire time, but on during the second day, my wife and one of our other female facilitators come in because a lot of wounding for men that happen is is females. 0 (51m 38s): They're mums. Like there's so many mum and sisters and auntie woundings. So for, for men to be able to heal properly, they have to have the feminine there. And I, I found that out 'cause it was during some training that I was doing, they actually brought men's work into the room. And I hadn't experienced that before. And it was a, a room full of 80 people. I think there was only 10, 10 of us were men. The rest were, were, were women. And we had to do the, we didn't have to, but we got to experience that release through that yelling and, and the roaring. And, and for me, that was the first moment I ever had felt so free from myself and yet so connected to myself at the same time. 0 (52m 27s): And there was that moment where I decided I was gonna create the heartland warriors and the retreats. So I did that in front of women and they got to receive my, my masculine energy and they loved it. And there was a point where we received an apology from women and that just, it wasn't from the people that I felt hurt from in my past, but the feeling of it was there. And as soon as that happened, I'm like, this has, this is gonna be part of our retreat. We're gonna have women there and there's gonna be an apology on behalf of women that have hurt 'em in their past. And even though it's not for them, from the people, from the women, they're gonna get that. 0 (53m 8s): And they're gonna feel that because it's gonna help them, help them move, move past that and, and forgive and, and, and grow. So it's a huge part of what we do. And we do the same thing on our women's retreats. The men come in and allow that to happen for the women as well because for a lot of women there's no safety in the masculinity. So, and and to have two men, myself and one of our facilitators come in that are, that do sit in their divine masculine and they get to feel that safety, feel held, feel supported. They soften, they sit in their feminine for probably the first time in a very long time and they're able to forgive as well and move on. 1 (53m 50s): Yeah. It's really incredible how many wounds can kind of stick around from childhood for a lot of people. So I feel like one of the deepest wounds for a woman to get over is the masculine wound from her father. And the same goes for a young boy, which is the fem feminine wound of the mother. And for me, I try so hard not to like over nurture or overprotect or anything and let my boys be boys because you have to recognize they're a different animal than a girl. And I can't expect them to be the perfect little girl because they are not. So when I put these expectations on them to be quiet and not climb and not roar and not wrestle, like that's, that is the worst thing I could do as a mom. 1 (54m 37s): So sometimes it's hard because you want a clean house and sometimes you want it to be quiet, but like, no, I have to honor this very real part of life, which is these two wild little things that, you know, I have to help be the best version of themselves. But I do think for a lot of women, and I see it on playgrounds, I see it at schools, it's like they're taking their boys and they're trying to make them the perfect little girl. Yeah. And I think that that's where you start to get the shutdown, the emotional shutdown. Yeah. It's okay. Be quiet, be still, don't move, be seen and not heard. Right. It's like that's where you almost get this shadow stoicism where of a man where you're like, oh no, he's stoic. It's like, no, he's probably shut down. 0 (55m 18s): Yeah. He's not, he hasn't been allowed to feel anything. And, and I, even for men, I know having my first son, I was very, I was a very adventurous young boy, always motorbikes and all, all the things when I was young and knowing how often I'd hurt myself or how many injuries I had growing up, I would wrap my eldest in cotton wool and be like, don't climb on the lounge, don't do this, don't do that. Because you could see what's gonna happen. They're gonna fall, they're gonna hurt themselves. And yet, and everything we do for our children comes from a place of love. But I'm only, I was only stopping him from doing things 'cause I loved him so much. I didn't want him to have to experience any pain. 0 (55m 60s): And yet, there again, there was a moment for me, this is, this was long before I'd started doing any of this work. He madam I think he was about 18 months, two years old. And I had this realization of like, I've just gotta let him be a boy. He, he needs to learn this from, from himself. I'm still here, I'm still living. I, I had plenty of broken bones and fell outta trees and crashed my bikes and things like that. And I'm okay with that. So I think there's, and yes, I agree with the mothers, but there's a, there's a point for father, some, a lot of fathers too, where we actually have to let them be boys have to let them hurt themselves, have to let them find adventure. So yeah, it's, it is important. And, and there's no, I mean, there's plenty of guides and booklets and things for parents, but it's not easy. 1 (56m 49s): No, it's certainly not. 0 (56m 50s): Finding that balance is, is something that you get to do and get to experience. And I think, again, there's so much more information coming out now for parents, like, like everything that you just said, so they can, can make those informed decisions for themselves, for their kids. So, yeah. 1 (57m 11s): Well, Dane, I know it's late there. This was wonderful. Before we sign off, do you wanna tell the listeners or watchers where they can find you, how they can support you? And if you have any, anything coming up? 0 (57m 23s): Thank you. Firstly, I just wanna say thank you to you for having me, first of all, and creating this platform that you have to have these types of conversations. I've been creating a little time to try and listen into your, your podcast a bit. I'm, I'm really value the people that you have on and the information that you are gifting the world. So thank you for that. There's so much power in conversation and, and I love it. So yeah, you can see all of our stuff on all social media, channels at heart, led Warriors Under Heart, led under Warriors, or catch our website, www heart led warriors.com au. 0 (58m 4s): We have so many things you can come inside of our world online. It's all through our website. We've got a free men's Facebook group called Heart Led Men. Please come and join it. It's just men coming together, feeling seen, feeling supported, sharing. If you're not comfortable sharing, you can share anonymously. You can gain insight from all the men in there. There's myself and all of all of our facilitators are in there to provide insight. If that's all that you can get yourself to, that's okay. And then again, all of our stuff's on online through our websites or just reach out, send, send me a dm. It is me and the dms. 0 (58m 44s): I love having contact, I love having conversations with everyone in there. So if there's something that you are, if you hear this or see something online, please just reach out, start the conversation. 1 (58m 54s): Beautiful. Thank you. And I will link all of that below. Thank you again. 0 (58m 58s): Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. 1 (58m 59s): That's it for this week's episode of Chatting with Candice. Before you go, I'm going to ask that you share this episode with two or three people that you think need or want to hear it. It's a very important conversation about spreading awareness about mental health, specifically with men. I think that they do a much better job at containing it and hiding it and suppressing it. And we want everyone to know that you don't have to do that anymore and that you are so loved. So we are gonna put the resources down below in case you or a friend is struggling and you need some support or some help or someone to talk to. Please reach out to any of those links below if you need anything at all. And I hope that you enjoyed this episode and you took something of value away. 1 (59m 40s): I'll see you next week. Bye everybody.