Understanding Consent: Dr. David Ley on Hookup Culture & Social Media

0 (0s): People will start consuming porn. It's very vanilla. It might be girl, girl, it might just be like cinematic, whatever. It's just nothing that anyone would categorize as a kink, fetish, violent, any of that. And then eventually what happens to everyone, David, is 1 (15s): There are women or people in general who may verbally consent to sex, but are non-verbally saying no. 0 (23s): So how does that work in the legal system, though? People 1 (27s): May identify, yeah, I consented to sex, but then all of a sudden when my partner started choking me, I hadn't consented to that. 0 (35s): Fascinating how people can't separate the entertainment value of porn versus taking it as a documentary. 1 (43s): Porn sex is not what real sex looks like. It doesn't show you the negotiation, it doesn't show you the lube, it doesn't show you the preparation. It doesn't show you the aftercare when somebody engages in A-B-D-S-M or a sexual scene with you, and then they care enough to do aftercare, it leaves the person with the feeling that, 0 (1m 4s): David, it's so good to see you and in person. I likewise. 1 (1m 7s): Excited. Likewise. Last time we were just remote. It's fun to be in person. 0 (1m 10s): Yeah. Yeah. So what is it you're currently working on? I think the last episode we did, we focused mostly on like sex and porn addiction. Right. 1 (1m 19s): You know, it's a little different, but one of the things that I've really pivoted into is I'm doing a lot of expert witness work in the courts. Sexuality issues are ending up in the court system more and more and more. And I'm being brought in to educate juries about sexual diversity, about consent, about the influence of alcohol on sexuality. Just trying to help them make decisions from a place of good information as opposed to a lot of the myths that people hold about sexuality. Which actually this conference, you know, the Sexual Health Alliance is really dedicated towards combating these myths around, you know, and increasing sex, sex education, just trying to increase people's acceptance of sexual diversity. 1 (2m 5s): And so, you know, at conferences like the Sexual Health Alliance, sex Sexology Conference, that's what it's all about. And then I kind of take that same information into the court system and try to spread that information so that people make the best decisions possible. 0 (2m 22s): So what are some of the most common myths that you see in the courtroom or just in public in general? 1 (2m 27s): Oh, well, I mean that, you know, people who like kinky sex are deviates that people who, like sex in general must have been traumatized in childhood. That porn performers, you know, are all drug addicts or damaged people, that women don't like sex and that women can't enjoy kind of, you know, more kinky or aggressive sex. That's one of the things that I'm brought in. Oftentimes, one of the things that I'm seeing a lot and and a lot of people are talking about this, is that young people, particularly, you know, older adolescents, young twenties, are engaging in choking during sex more. 1 (3m 12s): And there it's a complicated issue. I mean, this was, it's been around a long time. People were, I remember choking when I was a teenager and I'm in my fifties, but now men seem to be learning about it from porn. Women interestingly, are mostly learning about it from Social Media or from memes. And the problem is that they're engaging in what I call varsity level sex, when they've never even played on the JV team. Right. So they don't know how to negotiate rough sex. They don't know how to identify, you know, kind of safe words or ways to stop. 1 (3m 54s): And they're oftentimes doing it with people that they don't know very well. You know, rough sex is not something you do the first time you have hookup sex with somebody. I'm absolutely, I don't have a whole lot of universals, but that's one of 'em. And, and then what I'm seeing is that a lot of the men, and these are younger men, they don't know how to, they don't know how to follow up after sex. Mm. So it's interesting in the kink world, in BDSM, aftercare is interestingly regarded as a sign of consent. 1 (4m 37s): Now aftercare comes after the sexual encounter. So it's a post facto sign of consent, because when somebody engages in A BDS AM or a sexual scene with you, and then they care enough to do aftercare, it leaves the person with the feeling that, oh, you know, this is, I, I was treated well, this person cared about me. But if somebody engages in A-B-D-S-M or a sex scene and then kind of ghost 'em, walks away, it's easy for a person to feel taken advantage of exploited. And that's one of the things that I'm seeing in a lot of cases I've been involved when with, with kind of hookup sex. And then typically the male kind of ghost the female or, or doesn't know how to talk to her afterwards. 1 (5m 23s): And then she ends up feeling exploited. And in some cases, cases ends up filing sexual assault charges. And it gets very, very complicated figuring out what was consensual, what wasn't. How did this evolution and kind of perception of consent happen? We've been seeing a lot of this since the Me Too movement, and, and I don't think it's gonna stop anytime soon. 0 (5m 47s): That's really interesting, because if you do have some kind of designated aftercare, you could take something that could have been like a really gray area of consent. Like it wasn't necessarily forceful, or there wasn't malicious intent. It was just maybe something that didn't make you feel good. Right. And then in that post aftercare, you can be like, oh, clearly he didn't mean to do whatever. And it's so much easier to forgive and then kind of absorb in a healthier way versus like, oh, he he meant to do this. That's right. Yeah. And kind of villainize the guy automatically. So with most consent and most language in general, I think it's over 90% of communications nonverbal. Right. And especially when it comes to sex, there is this new phenomenon that people are seeing is happening due to Social Media, mostly anything technological. 0 (6m 30s): So if you're spending a lot of time scrolling or zoning out and watching Netflix, watching a ton of time watching porn, that it actually makes you less able to read nonverbal cues and almost in a way that it shows up a little bit autistic and depending on how much consumption is happening. So if you take that and then not being able to read facial cues, especially during sex, how much of a problem that's gonna be. Right. So what's the solution? Is it, I like the aftercare method much more than having verbal consent throughout the entire thing. 'cause that ruins That ruins it. Yeah. And I don't wanna sign something before. 'cause that's also frigging weird. Right. It's, 1 (7m 6s): Yeah. It, it's tough. I mean, you know, certainly I've been in sexual situations where, you know, I'm checking in with a person and then they're like, stop asking me. Right. You 0 (7m 17s): Know, that would be me. Like, shut up, stop being sexy. 1 (7m 19s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and, and, and Social Media and technology here just gets complicated. I mean, when, when people have interacted by Social Media before their first date, they're more likely to have sex on the first date because they feel like they know each other, even though, you know, the person they know through Social. Media is just kinda like the person I interview for a job. Right. I'm not meeting that person. I'm meeting their representative. Social Media. I'm not meeting that person. I'm meeting the person that they want to be, or that they want to have people think they are. And then males typically communicate consent, non-verbally. 1 (8m 2s): Females typically can communicate consent verbally, but females think males communicate consent, not verbally. Males think females communicate consent non-verbally. And so it's this mismatch that rarely gets talked about. I mean, during Me Too, you know, we were talking before we started about autism and our kind of shared experiences with, with, with folks with autism. And during the Me Too movement, I had, I can't tell you how many males that were on the spectrum who said to me, look, I, I am hearing that there are women or people in general who may verbally consent to sex, but are non-verbally saying, no, that this is too much. 1 (8m 49s): And those guys on the spectrum were saying to me, I can't do that. I I can't, I I can't read the nonverbal cues that, that that's part of my issue. And they were really, really nervous about how to make this work. And so we did a lot of work, you know, talking about how to identify consent, but also, as you said, how to, how to also keep it sexy. 0 (9m 15s): So how does that work in the legal system though? So if so much of it is nonverbal, and then downstairs they were talking about, and I, I loved it so much. There are, there are consent violations, and then there are consent mistakes like a Right. And they are different. And intent does matter. And I know so many people that have taken a consent mistake and tried to make it into this big legal thing. And to me, that's so gross, because the legal and social ramifications of someone that gets found guilty of any of that, it's, it's a massive consequence. So I think you need to take that into account. So what, you have something that comes to a court case, and it's so gray, and it's not like most people are recording it. 0 (9m 55s): So there's, it's all kind of here, hearsay, he said. She said, how does that get handled? Like, how, what are the outcomes typically 1 (10m 4s): Complicated first, you know, that language, you know, consent mistakes, consent violations, you know, sexual assault. We like to think that's on that, that, that, that's on a pretty clear spectrum, but it's really not. And certainly the court system doesn't handle some of that nuance very well. The, yeah, there, there's a case I'm involved with in Asia right now where the judge has, has really come back and said, you know, it's a simple yes or no, was there consent or not? And where people like me come in and kind of upset people is where I say, you know what? 1 (10m 49s): It's complicated. So for instance, with choking sex, one of the things I see is that people may identify, yeah, I consented to sex, but then all of a sudden when my partner started choking me, I hadn't consented to that. And so then at that point, this stops being consensual. One of the things with, with alcohol, for instance, you know, alcohol for women dramatically increases their ability or willingness to express sexual arousal, to express sexual desire, and to agree to sex. 1 (11m 31s): But alcohol on board for a female decreases the chances that she's gonna orgasm increases the chances that she'll engage in unprotected sex and increases the chances that she will later identify the, the sexual encounter as non-consensual. So it, it's really tough. I mean, one of the things I one of the things I'm telling young people right now is that sex, especially varsity level sex, like I'm talking about, that's something that you do with people you trust. And, and I, I don't mean to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but but, but as you said, you know, th this, you know, Candace, this, this world is a new world in a lot of these ways. 1 (12m 20s): And in, in some ways, it's a really better world because I wanna make sure that people are protected and that people who whose rights are violated have the ability to get support. But at the same time, we have not, we've not kept up and we've not educated people about how to navigate this more complicated world. And so, you know, again, as I said a moment ago, hook up sex is not the time to engage in kinky sex. Hookup. Sex is not the time to engage in rough sex, even though that might be your thing. And that's the thing that really, that you really enjoy. But if you're encountering this with somebody you don't know, and you don't know where their boundaries are, you don't know that they know where your boundaries are. 1 (13m 6s): You know, my wife and I have been married 25 years, and, you know, we can communicate non-verbally really freaking well, but on our first date, we couldn't. And that's kind of one of the challenges. I mean, I, I, I am not a moral panic person when it comes to pornography, but one of the things about pornography that I do recognize is that it has introduced young people to concepts of, again, varsity level sex. That they're not prepared to manage and integrate into their life in a, in a, in a, in a thoughtful way. 1 (13m 47s): And that's one of the places where I think we need to do a lot better work. I mean, one of the things that, you know, is happening here at the conference is people talking about how do we integrate more effective sex education? And one of the things that people keep talking about is porn literacy and helping, you know, people, and particularly young people to know that, you know, porn is not an accurate depiction of sex porn. Sex is not what real sex looks like. It doesn't show you the negotiation. It doesn't show you the lube. It doesn't show you the preparation. It doesn't show you the aftercare. Unfortunately, what research with young people shows us is that the young people who have not gotten sex education are the people who are most likely to view porno pornography as realistic depiction of sex. 1 (14m 34s): Mm. So they're the ones most likely to learn unhealthy lessons from sex. We haven't, we haven't figured out how to counteract that yet. 0 (14m 43s): Yeah. To me, it's always, it's fascinating how people can't separate the entertainment value Right. Of porn versus taking it as a documentary. Yeah. But you can watch Jason Bourne and you very much see Matt Damon. If you bump into him on the street and you're like, it's Matt Damon, that's not Jason Bour, you're not gonna try to fight him or go to car chase. Right? Right. But when someone approaches or sees their favorite porn star, like automatically they dehumanize you really quick. You are very much your character. You must want sex all of the time. And then the content that you're creating is, is real and accurate and educational. So I don't understand why it's so easy to watch mainstream film and understand that that's entertainment. And then when you watch porn, everyone's like, well, I didn't know it wasn't educational. 0 (15m 23s): Really? What do you mean? Like, all the signs are there that, that is not comfortable, pleasurable, or realistic for most people. 1 (15m 30s): Yeah. You didn't learn to drive by watching Fast and Furious. 0 (15m 33s): No, certainly. 1 (15m 34s): Yeah. You went to a driving school and you learned how to go 20 miles an hour, you know, when we were at dinner the other night, Candace, you know, you said something and, and it just, you just sparked my memory that people feel like they have access to, or ownership maybe even, maybe not the right word, but access to porn, performers, identity and body in a way that they don't seem to have access to other performers. Would, would that seem accurate? 0 (16m 7s): Like a different level of expectation? Like they owe them something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if it's the, I forget the technical term, but it's when you feel you a parasocial relationship. Right. Nice. And I think maybe, I don't know the neuroscience behind it, but I would venture to say that maybe it's because of everything that's firing off and like the power of an orgasm while you're watching that content, that maybe it makes that relationship a little bit more toxic than if you're just watching your favorite movie star. But we do see people that do have an unhinged relationship with like Taylor Swift or Right, right. Or a rock star or what have you. So I don't, I don't know if it's more prevalent or if it's just more obvious. 1 (16m 43s): I agree. I mean, I think it, I would say it, it does seem at a different level in that I see people who don't act intrusively or obsessively that way towards mainstream kind of content, but do act that way towards performers, towards, towards adult performers. I don't like talking about the brain very much because to me, it externalizes, you know, when we talk about neurons, when we talk about neurochemicals, it's the same to me as talking about demons in the 15th century. It externalizes, I wanna talk about the person. Okay. And so instead, what I would say is for people that don't have much access to their sexual selves, for people that have kept their sexuality secret and locked up, it can feel deeply connecting in kind of a fake way to sort of share sexuality with a porn performer. 1 (17m 46s): I mean, think about, I can't tell you how many men I've seen who, you know, a little later in life, twenties and thirties and forties, you know, finally have sex for the first time, and they immediately fall in love with the person that they had sex with, even though that wasn't really what was, what was happening. It's that kind of phenomenon, I think in terms of that, that, that can lead to this over identification and possessiveness. 0 (18m 16s): Yeah. I don't know. I don't know the solution to that. I always try to practice like my business side of adult content very ethically. I've always been open that I'm in a relationship or that have kids, or that we, we are both engaging in a fantasy together. Right. I've never been one of those performers. I met this one woman, and this is not unusual, unfortunately. And she's like, I just wanna milk everyone dry. And she would keep people online 24 7 if she could, and literally not care if she's ha like, you know, taking their mortgage. To me, that's, that's so fucked up. I think that you do have a responsibility. A responsibility, especially when nowadays everything is kind of so decentralized and you're, you're chatting with your fans directly. Right. So it's, it's getting even more intimate, and it's getting those lines and boundaries are getting even more murky. 0 (19m 1s): So I think you're doing yourself a disservice and, and fundamentally it's just unsafe. Yeah. That if you're practicing that way. So, I mean, I'm not online 24 7. I take a long time to get back. If someone is behaving in a way that I think is unhealthy, I will tell them, you need to go outside, go touch grass. Like, I'm not available for you anymore. And I think I would like to see more people do that. And again, I think even from a selfish level, it's just more safe that way too. 1 (19m 22s): Yeah. I was, I was consulting just the other day with therapists that were working with patients that were into cash and financial submission. And first I have to say, and if anybody knows that I'm wrong here, please tell me. But I have never in my life seen a female financial submissive. I've only seen male financial submissives who erotically connect to the prac, the, the act of giving money to an online dominant. And, you know, and, and it makes them feel important. It makes them feel like they're part of her life. It makes them feel like they're supporting her. 1 (20m 2s): And, and it's kind of a pseudo relationship now. She knows it's a pseudo relationship, and he gets confused. Mm. There was a case in Florida where a guy gave, so signed his house over to his financial submissive, and it went to court. She ultimately did end up keeping the house. Whoa. But these things do get complicated. And just like you said, there certainly are folks out there that engage unethically and are exploiting, I mean, I, one of the things again that, that, you know, we talk about here at the Sexual Health Alliance is the six principles of sexual health. And so, whenever I'm out there, you know, challenging some moral panic narratives about sex, people always think, you know, that, oh, David just wants, you know, free for all sex. 1 (20m 51s): David just wants an unboundaried sexual environment where anybody can do everything. And absolutely not. What, what we come back with is what is healthy sex for us? Healthy sex is sex that has consent, honesty, safety in terms of pregnancy or STIs, shared values, non exploitation and pleasure. So one of the things I say to people is, you know, you say, here we are in a hotel, and if I meet somebody at the hotel bar and we hit it off, and, and, and I say to, I say to you, you know, I'm really looking for a relationship, and you, and I feel like we could really make something happen. 1 (21m 33s): We go up to the hotel room and we have crazy hot sex. I mean, there's orgasms everywhere on the ceiling and the bathroom everywhere. The next morning I leave, and I don't call you because I was lying. I didn't really want a relationship, but I knew you did. Mm. Is that healthy sex? It might've been really pleasurable sex. It was mutual sex, but we didn't have shared values. I wasn't being honest, and I was exploiting you. That's not healthy sex. And so, you know, coming back to your example, you know, can a, can a dominant engage in healthy sex with a submissive? 1 (22m 18s): I think so, but it requires attention to this exploitation. Now he wants to be exploited. That's what gets him off. But there's also a line. 0 (22m 28s): Absolutely. Oh, what I had a question. Oh, regarding moral panic and pornography or anything around sex in general, do you think that stems from just lack of education and understanding? Or do you think it's more ideological and it's about power control, lack of freedom for individuals to express the way that they want? Combination of both. 1 (22m 50s): Yes. Yes, yes. 0 (22m 51s): Just 1 (22m 51s): Yes. Yes. Just yes to all that. I mean, I, you know, Candice, you ask good questions. 0 (22m 57s): Thanks. 1 (22m 59s): One of the things I try to be empathic about is with people who fear sex. And I, I will say that folks on my side of the aisle that are out there doing education around sex, I, I think many of us don't empathize with the people who are afraid of sex. And sometimes people get angry at us, people like you and I, who are living our best sexual lives, and they don't want us to be able to live our best, best sexual lives. And, and my belief at this point is because they are angry that at some point, the ability to live their best sexual life was taken away from them, or that they gave up the opportunity and they're angry at us for living a life that they never got to have. 1 (23m 51s): I think that that can is, is a feeder to a lot of the moral panic. And, and, and anger for me as a therapist is always a secondary emotion. There's always some emotion that comes first. And then you get angry. If you jump out at me and I'm, I'm out of an alley, you scare me. And then I get angry and I beat the shit outta you. So why are these people angry over sex? And a lot of it is fear that these changes in sexuality that are coming out of our society with non-monogamy, with kink, with pornography, with, with all of these different kind of sexual expressions, people are afraid that that's going to change sexuality, and it's gonna take away the kind of sex that they like or that they want. 1 (24m 39s): A had a woman stand up in an audience one time, and she said to me, David, I truly believe that pornography and casual sex pose a threat to the continued existence of the human race. Holy crap. Oh, okay. I don't know how to engage with you here. First, casual sex is how babies are made. So I, I am just gonna challenge you there. But, but that's the, that's the level of fear that is feeding this moral panic. And certainly, you know, religious communities view pornography as a threat to their way of life as a threat to their sexual values. 1 (25m 22s): And sadly, you know, we see that people who watch pornography over time become less religious. And I call it the, the lightning didn't strike phenomenon where, you know, they were taught, you know, anybody who has gay sex or kinky sex or masturbates or, you know, performs oral sex or whatever, that that bad things are gonna happen to them. God doesn't like you. And then they watch these people on screen, and nothing happens to them. Nothing happens to the people on screen. Nothing happens to them watching it. And then they become more accepting of their own sexual interest. You know, when people start watching pornography, typically they watch very vanilla porn. But then after they are watching pornography for a little while, and again, they, they see nothing bad happens. 1 (26m 5s): They become more accepting of sexual diversity. And so suddenly, you know, they're, they're deep, dark secret interest in watching fart porn all of a sudden becomes a little more acceptable. Maybe I'll check that out. Now. It looks like what we call content progression. I was gonna ask that. It looks like it. Look, you know, in, in, in alcohol, you know, when I was a kid and I, I first drank a beer, I got chipsy. Right Now I can drink probably six or seven beers before I feel anything that's a, that, that, that's tolerance. Do we see the same thing with pornography? Well, when I was a kid, I could look at the, you know, Fredericks a Hollywood catalog and get aroused and masturbate. 1 (26m 48s): If I looked at it now, if, if it even exists, I don't know if they're, if if they make this 0 (26m 52s): Catalog, they're still around, okay, 1 (26m 53s): That's amazing. Good. Yay, yay Fredericks. I might look at it and say, oh, that looks kind of nice. I buy that from my wife, but I'm not gonna get so turned on and masturbate. Now, is that because of a, a, a tolerance phenomenon? Or is it the fact that, you know, I'm in my fifties and it takes a lot more work for me to get turned on, and it takes a lot, lot longer for me to orgasm. So we can't separate the developmental changes. And then what we do know about people that watch pornography is that in general, their pornography use is very boring. People find the same people watch the same kind of porn over and over and over again. They may divert a little bit. People that are into BDSM sometimes will divert into shoe fetishes. 1 (27m 38s): Web webmasters of porn of porn sites discovered this about 10 years ago, that if they put up videos of shoe fetish along with videos of BDSM, when somebody searched out femdom or BDSM, some guys would, would click on the shoes. So there is this cross relational thing, but in general, people find something that turns 'em on and they go back to that well over and over and over again. Often now in men, they'll typically look for different versions of that same stimuli, but they find what turns 'em on, because pornography is something that makes it easier to come. 1 (28m 19s): That's what pornography is. It is a tool to increase arousal and make it easier to achieve orgasm. So that's what people use it for. And then they go on with their day, but they find what turns 'em on and makes it easier to orgasm. And that's what they go back to over and over again. So then the other part of it is that there's a learning phenomenon, right? We're conditioning that response, building it over and over again. But 0 (28m 46s): I, it's so, it's so funny when you hear the arguments that some people make. So one of the ones I see all of the time, it talks a lot about that, how people will start consuming porn. And it's very vanilla. It might be girl, girl might just be like, cinematic, whatever. It's just nothing that anyone would categorize as a kink, fetish, violent, any of that. And then eventually what happens to everyone, David, is you will watch, start watching child's abuse, sexual abuse content, right? And you're gonna become a predator, or you become a serial killer. So one thing that I see this one group pushing are these Jeffrey Dahmer interviews, and there's this quote by him and, or maybe it's Ted, Ted Bundy, it's Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy, it, Ted Bundy. 0 (29m 26s): And he is like, never watch porn, because you'll end up here. Yeah. And it's like, okay, what you're doing right now is you're doing, you're saying something that almost everyone has participated in at least one time in their life. Like almo, find me a male that has never seen anything explicit. You're not going to, yeah. 1 (29m 41s): The research is about 97% of men, 89% of women Right. Will have seen porn in their life. 0 (29m 47s): Right? So take that large number. It's almost like, who's drank drank water? Well, we all have done that, but one person did something super evil, right? So now that's gonna happen to everyone. It's like how many people have consumed this and a healthy way and they didn't end up hurting a kid or killing a bunch of people, right. Most people. So, and then everyone's like, see, there's, there's truth to it. Yeah. Because Bundy said it, and you're like, 1 (30m 6s): No, it makes, it makes me crazy. I mean, first Ted Bundy was an antisocial narcissist. And the idea that his lies and stories are still floating around right now would probably make him really happy as he's burning in hell. But he was interviewed by James Dobson, who was a minister and a psychologist who created morality in the media now, now called National Coalition for Opposing Sexual Exploitation or something like that. And Bundy told Dobson what he wanted to hear. And you know, Bundy claimed, well, you know, I, I ended up like this 'cause I found Playboy in my neighbor's, in my neighbor's trash. 1 (30m 49s): Well, I mean, then Jesus, what, what was the neighbor doing? Right? I mean, so it's this. Now there are men that are misogynistic, men that are antisocial, men that have, are, are, are isolated and have anger. When tho if those men watch violent porn, it appears to increase the chances of them engaging in violent sex. But that's only estimated bet to be between four and 7% of men. 93% of men mostly don't watch violent porn and don't find violent porn ama arousing. And if they did, it wouldn't increase their chances of engaging violence. 1 (31m 31s): But there's also no research at all that changing the pornography somebody watches reduces the risk of violence. How do we reduce the risk of violence in these men? First, we keep 'em sober because impulsivity and particularly substances increased violence. Secondly, we try to address where's the misogyny coming from? Why are they angry at women? As we men were talking earlier, you know, the men that feel like they own porn performers or have a possessiveness, where's that coming from? I, I will sadly tell you that it is oftentimes coming from more conservative social values towards women that hold women out as property. 1 (32m 19s): There's a reason why, you know, women in more, you know, stereotypically conservative, know sexist societies get assaulted more because they're viewed as property. So if we can start changing some of those values, increasing men's ability to empath, empathize with women, one of the things I I I, I tell a lot of men, I talk a lot about ethical pornography use and mindful pornography use. And to combat some of that possessiveness and viewing women as a sexual object, I tell men to find performers that really turn you on and then follow them on Social, Media get, because now you get to see them as a person. 1 (33m 6s): And maybe you get to interact with them, just like you said, you find out they've got kids and they've got a dog. And now we start to view this person as a person as opposed to a sexual object. Now sometimes being objectified or viewing others as, as a sexual object is part of being aroused. I think, I think it was Freud said at the moment of orgasm, we have to view our sexual partner as an object. We have to give up empathy and thinking about the other person in order to allow ourselves to orgasm. Mm. You know, we, as we are orgasming, we're not thinking about the other person. 1 (33m 48s): We're just feeling the pleasure. So there is a bit of objectification in sex, but good sex involves all of it. Good sex involves that connection and that acceptance of objectification and the aftercare as we said. 0 (34m 8s): So do you see, you see all these states that are creating age verification and people are using VPNs to get around it. And a lot of the explanation is to protect minors. Or they have a big issue with just lack of paywalls, which I do too. I think there should be a paywall. I don't want my kid to be scrolling and see something that he's not ready to see. And I think the same with violence, but no one's stopping that you can go on Instagram and see a lot of murder. 1 (34m 31s): Amen. I agree with you about violence, 0 (34m 32s): But I guess maybe let's go there first. Why is it, okay. And I guess less people are saying it's less damaging, or at least their actions are saying that they think it's less damaging. 'cause no one is trying to get that content pulled off of any of these social platforms, but they're going after porn really hard. It just seems like a little bit of cognitive dissonance. If you're saying sex and pleasure between consenting adults is a huge problem. And it's going to traumatize someone if they stumble upon it. But I can watch someone's head get blown off. Like how I don't understand. Yeah. 1 (35m 4s): You know, I, sex is always a, a shiny object that people get distracted by. It's really easy to manipulate audiences by pointing at sex and raising sexual fears. I have to be careful here 'cause I'm actually involved in some of the legal cases around the age verification issues, one of which is going before the Supreme Court this fall. Mm. And I, some of, some of the things that, that I'm concerned about, one is that I think it is meaningful that the states that are putting these age, age verification, some laws in place are all highly religious states. 1 (35m 52s): I think it's meaningful that consistently the politicians that in that introduced these laws are religious. I think we have to attend to those religious motivations and, and cozy, the national Coalition sexual exploitation that I mentioned before, they have been the, a proponent of a lot of these laws. And they've identified in their, in their conversations that this is a first step to trying to restrict adult access to, to pornography. I think that's something to pay attention to. I'm concerned about the, the data safety of the information that gets collected. 1 (36m 35s): There's al already been some hacks with that material. The thing I'm more concerned about though, is something that, that I don't think it's talked about very much. And that the sites that comply are the bigger, more mainstream professional sites. And what happens then is consumers are then diverted towards less reputable, shady, less safe sites where it increases, excuse me, salute. It increases the potential that, that pornography is not ethical. It increases the potential that, that the performers were exploited or taken advantage of. 1 (37m 20s): I'm, I'm concerned about, you know, pornography that comes out of Eastern Europe, for instance. You should be Yeah, right. You should be because be because we don't have much, much confidence of safety or consent. The same was true, you know, in, in American history when pornography was banned, that it increased, frankly, it increased the, the influence of organized crime in American pornography because it was criminal behavior. Just like, just like prohibition, increased organized crimes influence in the United States by bringing in alcohol. 1 (37m 60s): There's these unintended consequences that I think we need to think about and pay attention to. And the, and the last thing I'll say is there are harms to young people from watching pornography, particularly the, as I mentioned, the young people that think it's real sex, a depiction of real sex. Now, most of the harms that we attribute to pornography with juveniles, juvenile delinquent behavior, drug seeking behavior, early sex, engaging in risky sex, those behaviors are also associated with growing up in an unhealthy family environment. 1 (38m 42s): And having absent parents, well, kids that grow up in an unhealthy environment and and have absent parents are more likely to watch pornography. So it is very likely that pornography is actually a third variable here. And that these risky sex behaviors, drug seeking behaviors, et cetera, are coming outta the parenting and the family environment just the same way that pornography is. Is there an interaction? Probably, but this is very complicated. But all that said, we can protect kids from most of the negative effects of pornography by teaching them what pornography is and isn't by starting to talk to them about what healthy sex is. 1 (39m 23s): And, and I'm not saying we need to be teaching kids how to masturbate. I'm not saying we need to be talking to kids about anal sex. Now, if we don't talk about anal sex, we're excluding the LGBT kids. I'll acknowledge that. But what I do want us to talk, talk to kids about with sex is consent and honesty and safety and shared values. And we need to reduce the shame because the Netherlands is a great example. They actually start sex education around age six or seven at young ages. They are showing children, adult nude bodies, not in sexual ways, but like in the locker room so that kids are seeing what healthy adult bodies look like. 1 (40m 3s): Now, these kinds of societies have lower rates of eating disorder and body image disorder than the United States does because girls are growing up and seeing what real adult female bodies look like. Right. They don't have these unrealistic images. These societies also have lower rates of teen pregnancy, lower rates of STI transmission and interesting lower rates of sexual assault. Because when we teach kids that sex is shameful and you can't talk about it, we are teaching victims that they have to keep their mouth shut because maybe it was their fault and they're gonna get shamed for being sexually assaulted. 0 (40m 46s): Exactly. I try to tell so many parents that, because I'll meet so many moms and their kids are even older than mine and they've never had body part discussion. I'm like, well, that's crazy. I was like, do you ever leave your kid with anyone other than you? And they're like, yeah, of course. I was like, oh, that's a real gamble you're taking. And they're like, what do you mean? I was like, if they don't even know what to call the part. And then now they know that this isn't something we talk about at home. What happens if something happens? They're not gonna have the vocabulary to come to you. And then the mom's eyes will just bug out. And I get, I'm, I take pride in that 'cause I'm like, maybe she'll go home and like do the right thing. And it's this weird shame that so many people have. I'm like, you're, you're the one that's introducing harm to your kid because you can't just grow up and get over it. 0 (41m 28s): It's not a big deal. And the body thing is really interesting. So my dad's side of the family is Japanese. I dunno if you've ever been to like a Korean spa or any of these Asian spas, but it's, it's really, it's shocking and jarring if you've only ever been to like white spas and it's just a bunch of people. They're, they're usually separated by sex. So it's just like a bunch of ladies and they'll be 60, 70 years old, completely nude, walking around, going into different jacuzzi and steam rooms. And you just see every kind of body and you're like, oh, that's, these are all bodies. They all, they look, this is the, the variety that's there. And it's not just like this one thing, this Cosmo that's telling you like, if you don't look like Kate Moss, that you're not good enough and you should probably just starve yourself for a few days. 0 (42m 10s): Right, 1 (42m 10s): Right. Good job, Candace. I mean, I, so you sparked a thought for me. You know, you, you asked early on about the myths, you know, those myths of sexuality. And one of the most dangerous ones is the myth that sexual assaults are, are, are enacted by strangers. 90% of sexual assault, particularly of children, is committed by people. You know, people, the kid knows your neighbor, your friend, you know, the friend of your family. You know, your, your, your uncle that you grew up with, the teacher, the boy scout leader, your pastor God help us all. 1 (42m 50s): And when we don't teach kids that, when we teach kids, oh, you know, you need, you need to be afraid of that, of that strange person down there that we don't know. We're missing the target. And because we need to help kids be aware of their immediate surroundings. What I what I tell parents is, you know, these, you can't have one 10 minute conversation. You have to have 1,010 second conversations. And the one time you punish your kid for asking you a question about these issues, they will never come to you again. 1 (43m 34s): And now they're on your own. You just isolated your kid to potentially suffer whatever consequences they're gonna suffer all alone. It's so scary when our kids come to us and ask these questions, but this is the world we created and it ain't going back. Pandora's box is not closing. And whether it's age verification, et cetera, we're, we're not gonna, we're not gonna protect anybody by, by hiding from this material. You know, I, I teach kids that, you know, the internet is, you know, an interesting, fun, scary place and there are amazing things out there. 1 (44m 19s): And sometimes there are things that you'll see that make you feel weird and scared. And when that happens, come to me and talk to me about it. There are people out there that might be gross or awful to you. And when that happens, it's not your fault. Come to, to me and talk to me about it. I think we, we need to, we need to inoculate kids against these things. And that's us taking responsibility for the world we created. 0 (44m 45s): Exactly. Make them anti-fragile in a sense. Right? Yeah. Like, don't put them in this bubble and, and you're actually doing them a disservice because when they come across anything that is troublesome or could be harming harmful, they don't have the tools or equipment or even know that they have support to go to and how to handle it. So that makes way more sense. 'cause you can't, you can't, no. 1 (45m 5s): Yeah, 0 (45m 5s): You can't. Maybe for a little bit. Yeah. 1 (45m 7s): I mean the, one of the things that most sex educators know, you know, here at Sexual Health Alliance, again, you know, lot, lots of conversations about sex education. You don't hear anybody here talking about abstinence because what we know is that abstinence only education increases the chances that youth will engage in unprotected sex when they engage in sex. 0 (45m 30s): So where does, where do people get the information? 'cause Candace Owens did this episode and she was saying the exact opposite. She was saying that once we introduced sex education into schools back in, I don't know, maybe the fifties or something, she said soon as we introduced that there was a skyrocket, like a hockey stick of teen pregnancies. Is that just like completely contrived? Like 1 (45m 51s): Well, I mean, first in the fifties we didn't have the pill and so there was much greater restricted access to contraception. So we're kind of comparing apples and oranges here. Okay. Secondly, I, I will, I will acknowledge that, that the research is a little more nuanced. When abstinence only education is presented and there are no other options of sex education, it increases the risk of unprotected sex. And interestingly, when remember purity rings when there was this fascinating research that a lot of people put on purity rings and made purity pledges because of pure pressure. 1 (46m 40s): When a small, when less than 50% of your social group makes a purity pledge, the people that make the purity pledge are more likely to try and stick to it. But when more than 50% of your peer group makes a purity pledge, a lot of people are unlikely to stick to it. 'cause they're just doing it for peer pressure. When we compare, you know, comprehensive sex ed to absence only sex ed folks that get education about contraception and are told, are not told, the best answer is no. Best answer is wait till marriage. They're more likely to use contraception during first pre during, during first sex. 1 (47m 25s): And compared to abstinence only, where they're not likely to have a condom, they haven't prepared to have sex. They didn't think they were ever gonna have sex until they get married. And then they're on a date and they get really turned on and they haven't thought through or even been talked through how to get a condom or even how to put a condom on at. We see the same with pornography, interestingly, that, you know, the, the men that try to abstain from pornography use and masturbation that 90% of pornography use is accompanied by masturbation. So most anti pornography discussions are really anti masturbation discussions. The men that try to abstain from pornography and masturbation increase their distress, anxiety and depression. 1 (48m 13s): And unfortunately as as human beings, we're just not really good at this. We're not really good at stopping doing things, but we are good at starting doing things. So what I tell patients is whether it's around sex, whether it's about pornography, let's talk about the healthy behaviors that you want to do more of rather than these unhealthy behaviors you're afraid of or you wanna give up. Let's energize the healthy behaviors. You want to exercise, you want to go out and socialize, you want to, you wanna try and get a job every time you come back and see me, those are the things I'm gonna ask about. 1 (48m 54s): I'm not gonna ask about the unhealthy behaviors. 'cause you already got that. You already know how to do that really well. Let's talk about these healthy behaviors that you wanna practice. Let's incentivize and reinforce those. That I think is, again, you know, the problem I have with with folks like Candace or, or, or the, you know, the, the folks that want to control access to pornography or want to stop these negative behaviors because they're not adequately talking about what healthy behaviors they want more of. And then talking about how we get more of that. There's a common belief in the, on that side of the aisle that, you know, men who watch pornography are less likely to want to get married. 1 (49m 40s): But in fact, a sociologist in Oklahoma, a friend of mine named Sam Perry, he actually did research on this. And so it, it's the don't give away the milk for free because nobody will buy the cow kind of belief. Right. Grandma used to say this, if you have, if you give away sex, nobody, nobody, no guy's gonna wanna marry you. But it turns out men who watch pornography want to get married more than men who don't watch pornography. Interesting. Because watching pornography is an indicator of libido and sexual interest. Mm. And guys who watch pornography and guys who are masturbating know that guys who are married are more likely to have sex than guys who are not single men have less sex than married men over on average. 0 (50m 28s): That's also surprising. 'cause you always hear about the death of the marital bed. 1 (50m 34s): Yeah. But sex once a week Is a lot more than the single guy who hasn't had a date in three months. It's getting harder to date. You know, both women or men are getting a lot more picky. I mean, we've, we've got the whole, you know, dating app thing. I was talking to somebody last this morning or last night, I forget about, you know, the, the way people shop on dating apps that they, they decide, you know, I know a lot of women that, you know, I I I'm only attracted to men that are over six feet tall and one guy that, you know, with this kind of hair and looks like this and does this for a living. And then they, so they limit themselves to those kinds of guys on the apps. 1 (51m 15s): But that's not how dating and falling in love work. You know, we, we oftentimes fall in love with people we're surprised that we find ourselves attracted to because they, I didn't think they were my type. And so I see a lot of people get, get into this, you know, swipe left, swipe left, swipe, oh swipe, you know, kind of as opposed, huh. Let me get out and explore the world and see who I connect with. It's a, it's a it's a complicated world. And, and, and I guess what I want, you know, I wanna have complicated answers for these complicated questions. 3 (51m 58s): Oh, 0 (51m 59s): So the inverse. So men that watch porn are more likely to want to get married. Yeah. How does that work for women? So women that participate in more sex, are they less likely to get married? Because that's also the we are the cow usually when you talk about the cow, 1 (52m 14s): You are so not a cow. I mean, I'm looking at you right now. I'm not thinking bovine. 0 (52m 21s): Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for that. 1 (52m 23s): So, you know, that's a complicated question. Men and women. And, and yeah. I'm gendering this because that, that's how this stuff breaks out. Now, there, now there are people that don't fit into these categories. And I am all about trying to include that data and that research. But when we look overall single women actually don't watch pornography very much compared to women who are in relationships and watch pornography with their partner. Most female pornography consumption is with a male partner, women who have sex, more masturbate, more women who have sex less, masturbate less. 1 (53m 18s): And you know, a, there's a researcher, Siri Van Anders that actually looked at neurochemicals and, and, and hormones for this. I said a minute ago, I wasn't gonna talk about it, but here it is. So that single women have low testosterone levels that correlate oftentimes with low sexual interest. When women have sex more, they want sex more. When women have sex less, they want sex less. Men who are single actually tend to have higher testosterone levels, typically 'cause they're masturbating more and watching more pornography, which increases your, your your testosterone levels. 1 (53m 58s): The idea that it reduces testosterone levels is a complete debunked myth. Absolutely disproven. But when men get married, and particularly when men get married and have a kid, their testosterone levels plummet. What's really interesting in Sarah's research is that men who are in non-monogamous relationships, their testosterone levels look the same as men who are single because the testosterone levels are correlating with novelty seeking sexual experiences. We don't really see that with women that women's sexuality is, and women's sexual response is more often reactive or responsive with their partner. 1 (54m 45s): And there are certainly many women I know who don't fit that, who have a high sexual interest, high sexual sensation seeking. They're seeking out casual sex. And, and I get that again, I'm talking about the big average in terms of, you know, women watching pornography or engaging in casual sex and with a desire for marriage. That's interesting. I I don't know that there's data to really evaluate that the way that there is in men. But we also don't have the myth. We also don't have that belief in, in women that women who are casual, who are into casual sex will never get married. 1 (55m 31s): Well 0 (55m 31s): I think it's more from an external value, like perceived value. So if she's doing that, does that make her less desirable to a future partner? And then I guess also if we're gonna talk about sex drive and masturbation and porn use for women, is that encompassing erotica as well? Or is that 'cause that's harder to track? 'cause if you're doing audio book or you buying something at Barnes and Noble, how do you have that data? 1 (55m 54s): Yeah, it's harder to track my, the audio book. In my first book, insatiable Wives, when about Cuckolding and Hot Wiping, it was read by Rose Caraway, the Naughty librarian. She's famous for reading erotica and she's a friend of mine and said she wanted to crossover into mainstream. And so she read my book and it's amazing 'cause it's kind of sexy read my first book. Yeah. Women more often are seeking out, you know, romance novels, erotica, erotic fiction, audio erotica, et cetera. I include that in porn. Okay. Because again, for me, pornography is any media that we use to enhance our arousal and increase our ability to achieve orgasm. 1 (56m 37s): Does it, you know, does, does sexual experience, you know, decrease ability to achieve a partner is, you know, lots of the trad wife kind of folk are out there saying, you know, oh, well, you know, talking about her body count. Well, I, I just always laugh 'cause I remember Mae West, you know, the famous actress in 1920s and thirties and she said, you know, men like a woman with a sexual past 'cause they're hoping history will repeat itself. And I, again, I think that trad wife kind of model or that idea that if her body count is too high, there's something damaged about her. 1 (57m 18s): I, that's a troubling idea to me. And it, and it also goes back to this, it goes back to the days of the dowry that, you know, the female sexuality is a property That, that doesn't work so well for women. And frankly it doesn't work so well for men. I can't, you know, there, there's so many men from those societies who fantasize about their wife being a slut. You know, cuckolding is more popular in conservative males because they, They are fantasizing about the taboo idea of their wife being sexually promiscuous, being insatiable, having multiple men. 1 (58m 5s): Yeah. I read this fascinating research about men from societies in Africa that still practice, you know, female general mu mutilation, you know, removal of the clitoris. Although of course it, it only removes the tip of the clitoris. The clitoris, again here at the Sexual Health Alliance conference, you know, there, there's giant clitoris all over the place. And it's not just a nub that you, that you can find if you're, you know, if you go looking. But it's this whole deep organ. Women from those societies are oftentimes still able to achieve orgasm because of that deeper tissue. But it takes more work. But amazingly, men from those societies go to brothels and sex workers in other societies who still have the clitoris and fetishize it. 3 (58m 54s): They 1 (58m 54s): Want women who are sexually responsive. So it's, it's, it's, you know, that that idea of female sexuality is property and, and possessiveness and control. Humans have never been good at controlling sex. If we had been, we wouldn't be here, we wouldn't have survived as a species. I don't think this is gonna work either. 0 (59m 22s): Well, David, I go for hours, but we are, Jamie's got us wrapping up. I would love to do this again. 1 (59m 30s): Always. I love talking 0 (59m 31s): To you Candace. Yeah. Whenever, do you wanna tell the listeners where they can follow you, how they can support you shamelessly plug away? Yeah, 1 (59m 37s): Sure. You know, you plug me baby at Dr. David Lay on Twitter and on Instagram. I know lay sounds like getting lay, but it's actually spelled LEY and yeah, I, I, I've got a website, David lay phd.com. You can find my books most places I'm pretty easy to find. If you wanna reach out to me, I'm always happy to talk about these issues. Thanks. 0 (1h 0m 0s): Thank you again. Bye everybody.